Hi-Volume Oil Pump

[gwhite]

Hey guys, tried a search but came up empty...

I know the Stipe high volume pump is normally used in pressure applications, can it also be used in a splash-oiled setup? Was thinking that more volume might provide some insurance at higher RPM (I'm using a SCAT crank, babbitt bearings).

Thoughts?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Well, think this thru. If you move the oil up to the valve chamber, the excess spills over to return back to the reservoir (pan). What is the benefit of moving more oil to the valve chamber only to have it spill back to the reservoir. The limiting factor is the tube size that flows the oil to the valve chamber to the main journals. Having a pump that moves more oil is of no benefit in that scenario.

[gwhite]

Thanks Brent! That's sorta what I was thinking too...so would a high volume pump move so much oil that the mains might be at risk of starving?

Still trying to wrap my head around the inner-workings of the A motor

[Fullraceflathead]

Not knowing the actual volume of Oil being moved by the High Volume pump makes me wonder if you might actual start to starve the oil in the pan. Is it possible to have too much oil pumped up in the valve chamber and almost run the pan low. Low enough to possibly starve, meaning suck air occasionally?It does take more HP to move more oil.

[fiddlybits]

I suppose it would be possible but that would be one hell of a pump.
Given that a stock pump can move a lot of oil and the return path from the output in the galley will mostly be over the timing gears or down the overflow tube and back to the sump. I don't know if it would be possible to cavitate the pump.

As Brent pointed out, it is the size of the tube going to the bearing that is the limit.
Since it is a gravity feed to the mains, there is no advantage of pumping more oil into the galley since that limitation is not going to flow any additional oil. Any extra oil will simply take the overflows back to the sump.

Also remember that with the taller gears on the high volume pump it will take a little more power to turn the pump. I don't know about your car but I don't want to give up anything of what little I have to move oil for no benifit.

gwhite - The inside is actually very simple. The Oil Pump, Oil splash and Gravity oil the engine.

Gravity feeds the main bearings from the oil in the galley that is filled by the pump. Splash lubricates the connecting rods in addition to the "scoopers" on the big end of the rods that scoop up oil from the sump. Splash and gravity feed lubricate the camshaft bearings and lobes.


Oil starts in the sump. It's pumped to the oil galley by the pump and it literally just comes out of a hole and fills the galley up to the point of the overflow tube (visible on side of engine) or runs over a dam at the front of the engine and spills over the timing gear. That is all the pump does, fill the galley. From there on gravity takes over.

[d.j. moordigian]

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Originally Posted by gwhite

Hey guys, tried a search but came up empty...

I know the Stipe high volume pump is normally used in pressure applications, can it also be used in a splash-oiled setup? Was thinking that more volume might provide some insurance at higher RPM (I'm using a SCAT crank, babbitt bearings).

Thoughts?

How about this;....make a clear Lexan side cover and clear oil compatible
return pipe,...then go run it. Take photos at different RPM's and report
back to us. I'd be interested too see your findings...

[gwhite]

Originally Posted by fiddlybits

I suppose it would be possible but that would be one hell of a pump.
Given that a stock pump can move a lot of oil and the return path from the output in the galley will mostly be over the timing gears or down the overflow tube and back to the sump. I don't know if it would be possible to cavitate the pump.

As Brent pointed out, it is the size of the tube going to the bearing that is the limit.
Since it is a gravity feed to the mains, there is no advantage of pumping more oil into the galley since that limitation is not going to flow any additional oil. Any extra oil will simply take the overflows back to the sump.

Also remember that with the taller gears on the high volume pump it will take a little more power to turn the pump. I don't know about your car but I don't want to give up anything of what little I have to move oil for no benifit.

gwhite - The inside is actually very simple. The Oil Pump, Oil splash and Gravity oil the engine.

Gravity feeds the main bearings from the oil in the galley that is filled by the pump. Splash lubricates the connecting rods in addition to the "scoopers" on the big end of the rods that scoop up oil from the sump. Splash and gravity feed lubricate the camshaft bearings and lobes.


Oil starts in the sump. It's pumped to the oil galley by the pump and it literally just comes out of a hole and fills the galley up to the point of the overflow tube (visible on side of engine) or runs over a dam at the front of the engine and spills over the timing gear. That is all the pump does, fill the galley. From there on gravity takes over.

Thanks a ton...that helps tremendously. I think I got it now

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

How about this;....make a clear Lexan side cover and clear oil compatible
return pipe,...then go run it. Take photos at different RPM's and report
back to us. I'd be interested too see your findings...

That would be interesting!

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by gwhite

Thanks a ton...that helps tremendously. I think I got it now



That would be interesting!

The bottom line in this is the attitude of what are you trying to accomplish? It takes horsepower to turn an oil pump, --and I suspect a couple of extra horses to move the extra oil from a H/V oil pump. So you are potentially wasting horsepower by going with the H/V pump in this scenario.

[Synchro909]

I run a Burlington crankshaft on inserts and a High Volume oil pump. I also pressure feed oil to the centre main bearing and put a pressure relief valve in the line to the bearing so it delivers 26psi to the bearing. The oil released by the valve goes straight into the dipper tray. I figure extra oil there ie, a deeper pool for the dipper to go through means more oil in the big end bearing and quicker recovery for higher rpm. Lubrication to the other main bearings is per original.
I wanted a pretty near bullet proof engine because I was about to pull a camper trailer weighing nearly a tonne 9,000 miles around Australia. I did that with no issues, in fact, I checked the bottom end when I returned and just put it all back together again with no adjustments and that was with the cheapest oil I could buy. I run a full flow filter.
If I were to build another engine (I think this one will last me my lifetime), I would consider pressure feeding all of the mains and flooding the dipper tray. Such an engine would last the next 85 years IMHO

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

I figure extra oil there ie, a deeper pool for the dipper to go through means more oil in the big end bearing and quicker recovery for higher rpm. Lubrication to the other main bearings is per original.

You may be right but two things you say have made me think about this a little more. You mention a deeper pool of oil. I am unsure how that would work since the depth of the dipper is still the same, ...and as soon as the dipper trough is full, the excess oil flows off the ends or the holes (if applicable). Therefore, does the added oil flow volume really raise the level?

Adding to that thought, since I doubt the oil level is truly raised in the dipper tray trough by the high volume pump's flow, are we certain the rod journal is actually getting additional oil?

To add even more to that thought, I have always suspected the rod's journal does not see all of the oil go thru the hole that the scoop travels thru. In my view, if you are desiring additional oil flow volume to the rods, consider enlarging the hole in the cap to allow more to flow thru. Even a minor enlargement in hole size allows a greater volume to pass thru.

.

[Rich in Tucson]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

How about this;....make a clear Lexan side cover and clear oil compatible
return pipe,...then go run it. Take photos at different RPM's and report
back to us. I'd be interested too see your findings...

A friend of mine has done this to test his completion of an engine that a previous owner began to modify for pressure oiling to mains.

The side cover visibility was obliterated within seconds of starting the engine, while the clear section in his oil return pipe showed oil flow also within seconds. His goal was to confirm that the setup indeed permitted enough volume to the valve chamber to cause flow back through the tube.

This engine had the rear oil slinger machined off of the crank, and he used a Kevlar flathead rope-type seal in the groove of the stock inserted-in-block block aluminum seal (A-6335) and rear main bearing cap in which the slinger normally traveled - he does not remember how the seal was fixated however this engine and another he did similarly have gone many miles and do not leak oil - I am interested in other's similar experiences with the absent slinger as we are about to assemble an engine with similar mods for pressurized flow to the main bearings. There is a lipped Nitrile seal for this "application", has anyone used one of these successfully and how? Thanks.

[fiddlybits]

Dippers (or scoopers) are an interesting animal .
If the oil level is too high it can actually decrease the amount of oil that is scooped because the oil is pushed out of the way by the rod big end. On engines where the dipper tray is adjustable it is critical that it is adjusted to the right level.
Our trays are not adjustable but I think it might be possible to achieve the same problem if too much oil is flowing across the dipper pan.

If that is possible then the high volume pump would be a detriment, not an advantage.

What I would do is run the engine and see if the oil return pipe starts warming up indicating the presence of hot oil in it returning to the sump.if it does, you have enough oil volume being pumped.

Any additional oiling advantage is going to be in increasing the ability of the oil to gravity flow better through larger holes to the bearings.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by fiddlybits

Dippers (or scoopers) are an interesting animal .
If the oil level is too high it can actually decrease the amount of oil that is scooped because the oil is pushed out of the way by the rod big end. On engines where the dipper tray is adjustable it is critical that it is adjusted to the right level.n Our trays are not adjustable but I think it might be possible to achieve the same problem if too much oil is flowing across the dipper pan.

If that is possible then the high volume pump would be a detriment, not an advantage.

What I would do is run the engine and see if the oil return pipe starts warming up indicating the presence of hot oil in it returning to the sump.if it does, you have enough oil volume being pumped.

Any additional oiling advantage is going to be in increasing the ability of the oil to gravity flow better through larger holes to the bearings.

That is an excellent point regarding too much oil in the dipper.

One other thought to ponder, ....when the bearing clearances are within spec, there is only a certain amount of oil that can get thru to the crankshaft anyway. The micro scratches in the crankshaft pin help move the oil and it seems there is more oil available than is usable by the crank, so would an increase in the oil pipe size really add more oil into the bearing area?

[James Rogers]

This a case of "if a little is good, then a lot is better" and is not always true. I have an oil pressure gauge on my Cabriolet and watch it a lot. I have noticed that at times it will drop to 0# and not only when the oil is cold but when I throttle it hard. If you study the evolution of the pans and dipper trays you will see Brent is correct as far as depth of oil is concerned. The first trays had no trough persay but had narrow channels for the dippers. This was discontinued early on and the conventional tray we all have seen was used till mid 31 when it was detwermined that oil levels in the tray was the contributing factor to oil spray from the fill tube. This tube was changed 3 times over the 4 year production without success. In mid 31 holes were added to the tray on the flat to attempt to solve the spray problem with these holes increasing in size and number until the 32 model B engine. Late in 31 the tray was lowered and a shield added to the pump to control oil flow and depth in the tray. This only shows that engineers that worked with the motors every day found that, the oil does not need to be deep in the tray but, needs to fill the troughs only and the pump was overly sufficient for the engine. I have many trays to show the evolution from the first to the last. The basic design of the pump remained unchanged from start to finish even to the late 30's models.

[d.j. moordigian]

Originally Posted by Rich in Tucson

A friend of mine has done this to test his completion of an engine that a previous owner began to modify for pressure oiling to mains.

The side cover visibility was obliterated within seconds of starting the engine, while the clear section in his oil return pipe showed oil flow also within seconds. His goal was to confirm that the setup indeed permitted enough volume to the valve chamber to cause flow back through the tube. That's about what I would have figured, but you
still have to do it too see the results.

This engine had the rear oil slinger machined off of the crank, and he used a Kevlar flathead rope-type seal in the groove of the stock inserted-in-block block aluminum seal (A-6335) and rear main bearing cap in which the slinger normally traveled - he does not remember how the seal was fixated however this engine and another he did similarly have gone many miles and do not leak oil - I am interested in other's similar experiences with the absent slinger as we are about to assemble an engine with similar mods for pressurized flow to the main bearings. There is a lipped Nitrile seal for this "application", has anyone used one of these successfully and how? Thanks.
I have the same problem with my B/C engine. The new Kevlar seals
work good,....the last Flathead I did had them in it,..no leaks. When
you start building your engine, post some photos of that area, I'm
interested!

Thanks, Dudley

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

I run a Burlington crankshaft on inserts and a High Volume oil pump. I also pressure feed oil to the centre main bearing and put a pressure relief valve in the line to the bearing so it delivers 26psi to the bearing. The oil released by the valve goes straight into the dipper tray...

Do you have any pictures of how you accomplished this arrangement?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by CarlG

Do you have any pictures of how you accomplished this arrangement?

Can't speak for how Synchro does it, but here is a couple of different pix of how I do it;






It is a copper-clad steel line that is tapped 1/8th pipe in the cap and in the oil chamber just below the oil pump in the picture.

.
.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by CarlG

Do you have any pictures of how you accomplished this arrangement?

Unfortunately, I didn't take any pictures before I closed it all up but it is basically this except I took the oil feed from the body of the oil pump and the fitting in the bearing cap is a tee. the part of the tee facing straight down is where I mounted the valve I made. I aimed at 25 psi and it runs at 26 - up to 40 when cold. Happy with that! It is not much different from what Brent has shown.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Can't speak for how Synchro does it, but here is a couple of different pix of how I do it;






It is a copper-clad steel line that is tapped 1/8th pipe in the cap and in the oil chamber just below the oil pump in the picture.

.
.

Brent, I notice you use an original oil pump. What sort of pressure do you get at the bearing with this "plumbing"? I figure anything is better than Henry settled for and his engines perform well for what they are.

[gwhite]

Hey fellas, thanks for all the responses! This is REALLY helpful!

Can anyone decipher what the plumbing in the attached picture would accomplish (this is Don Ferrara's A motor, circa 1943)