distributor drop in problem

[fried okra]

My 1931 Tudor has lost spark so I pulled the distributor to swap it out with two other dizzies I've got to see if that would solve the "no spark" problem.

The original distributor is out now, and I removed the dizzy anti-rotation lock in pin on side of the head, but none of the three dizzies I've got will drop fully back into the head.

Right now the locator pins on the bottom of the distributors are about 1/8" "proud" of the location hole on the head when trying to install each of them.

All three of my dizzies are similar. None will drop back in as they should.
The locator hole in the head is good and clean now, but the dizzy pin won't reach the locator hole.

The dizzie shafts are clean and I cleaned the recess in the upper part of the lower shaft. The lower dizzie shaft seems free, as in not frozen, and seems engaged with the oil pump, as it doesn't rotate.

The dizzie upper shaft will lock in fine with the lower shaft, as in the shaft won't rotate, but the dizzie won't drop down.

What am I not seeing here?

[alexiskai]

You may have checked this already, but the distributor shaft must be rotated in such a way that the tab on the upper shaft lines up with the slot in the lower shaft. If you turn the cam while installing the distributor, you should be able to find the spot where the upper shaft inserts properly.

[harryc]

could you please re-phrase the question ?

[Joe K]

The tab on the shaft is a little "off center." It goes in well as designed, but turn the distributor shaft 180 degrees it doesn't (shouldn't) fit.

Wear between the components MAY wear or bend the tang (male) portion or widen the groove in the female portion. I've seen operable Model A engines come into my shop with a little slip of leather between the parts to take up space.

ANOTHER issue you may want to check: check your distributor/oil pump gear for "rising." There is only a spring holding the distributor/oil pump gear housing/sleeve to its seat in the valve chamber.

I had let my Model A (avatar) sit for a couple of years between use. Parts in the valve chamber apparently rusted together in the inactivity. Cranking the engine trying to start it seemingly "raised" the distributor/oil pump gear - and literally "raised" the distributor - which is where I first noticed an issue.

Joe K

[Y-Blockhead]

Sounds like you may have pulled the lower shaft up when you removed your distributor and it is no longer aligned with the drive gear.

Put a screwdriver in the hole and see if you can turn the lower shaft.

[fried okra]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Thanks, yes, the shafts are rotated where where they lock in correctly. I presume if they lock in properly that the 180 degrees is not the issue? The off center tabs seem to be correctly engaged.

JoeK....seems your thought on the "gear rising" might be the issue.

How did you fix the gear rising problem?

[johnbuckley]

you'll get loads of advice on this Fried Okra! ...I suspect that that possibly the upper or lower shaft are not clicking into place here's my suggestions and PS the lock screw at the side of the block should not stop rotation ... it's there only to stop the dissy lifting up.
1. Install the lower distributor shaft by inserting it into the cylinder head. Oil the shaft with engine oil. Use a screw driver in to rotate the shaft so that it slots into place. The shaft can be inserted either end down as both the key ways are off set.
2. Place the distributor in the cylinder head whilst correctly positioning the locating pin with the hole on the head. Rotate the cam on the top of the shaft to rotate it so that upper and lower shaft mate correctly. (Very occasionally[ NB THIS IS NOT THE PROBLEM IN YOUR CASE AS THE ORIGINAL DISSY FIITED OK] one may find the shaft too long if the head has been machined. Grind the shaft carefully if this is the case but check several times that the shafts, distributor and head are correctly mated in every other way are correct in every other respect before undertaking this irreversible step!)
3. Install the locking screw and jamb nut into the side of the head. Screw in the locking screw only far enough to lock the distributor in place to eliminate it lifting out. Adjusting it too tight is unnecessary and can cause binding of the shaft and bushing.

[fried okra]

Thanks, Y-blockhead, yes I tried that with a big screw driver and it does not rotate, but does now seem stuck.....as in has slight lateral type movement.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by fried okra

How did you fix the gear rising problem?

Took the gear/housing/spring out. Bought new gear. Cleaned up housing (they're reproduced now), put it together with the pin/collar, and put back in place. All easily done after removing the carburetor, oil pipe, and valve chamber cover.

A wire wheel on the component parts MIGHT have cleaned it up enough to operate - for a while until re-rusting occurs.

This gear/drive is one of those which takes quite a beating in real life. So does the center cam gear - but that one is harder to do something about.

At the end - re-time engine - voila...


Joe K

[fried okra]

The lower shaft is still installed and seems locked in to the oil pump drive.

It will not rotate so assume it is locked in. It has slight lateral motion if prodded by a large screw driver so does not appear to be frozen.

I am wondering if outta remove the lower shaft? Is there a good tool to do that?

I've tried twisting two screw drivers into the slot but it doesn't seem to wanna rise up when pulling.

[Joe K]

I've tried twisting two screw drivers into the slot but it doesn't seem to wanna rise up when pulling.

I've seen distributors with "long drive shafts" (i.e. extend from the distributor DOWN into the block and to the oil pump drive gear) made in one piece. It seemingly was a common JC Whitney thing back in the day "to reduce free play" (i.e. instead of leather pieces.)

I can't say I've ever seen a long shaft extending "up."

More than likely you got water somehow into the oil pump drive gear/housing. The "collar" at the top of the housing doubles as the "locator" for the oil pump drive gear tang. I'm imagining the two are rusted together.

Rust of course occupies 1-1/2 times the volume of the carbon steel it's formed of.

Pix below

Note the "pin" holding the upper collar. Perhaps you can file/grind off the upset head and use a pin-punch to drive it through - releasing the collar to go up? Meh. Spring still in way.



Joe K

[fried okra]

Hmmm.....the car has not seen water in years and was running fine when shut down in the driveway and I pulled the distributor to swap it out with another to see if could get spark back.

I am running the standard two piece stock Ford dizzy shafts. And tried three distributors and none will fully drop the last 1/2" back into the head. And the dizzy lock screw is fully removed.

The lower dizzy shaft is still in place and does not appear to be frozen or stuck. It has slight lateral movement when prodded by a large screw driver.

[Gary WA]

Originally Posted by fried okra

Hmmm.....the car has not seen water in years and was running fine when shut down in the driveway and I pulled the distributor to swap it out with another to see if could get spark back.

I am running the standard two piece stock Ford dizzy shafts. And tried three distributors and none will fully drop the last 1/2" back into the head. And the dizzy lock screw is fully removed.

The lower dizzy shaft is still in place and does not appear to be frozen or stuck. It has slight lateral movement when prodded by a large screw driver.

is the pin on bottom of dizzy larger in diameter than hole? Been there!

[johnbuckley]

Originally Posted by fried okra

The lower dizzy shaft is still in place and does not appear to be frozen or stuck. It has slight lateral movement when prodded by a large screw driver.

Ah, I now suspect that the problem is the lower shaft has pulled up slightly from the drive and crud/rust is stopping it going back down .. need lots of airline blowing and thin oil ... you will need to remove the lower shaft somehow . ( the lower shafts do wobble laterally - its wobble is restricted once the dissy and its shaft are connected to it )

[fried okra]

JoeK....The locator pins on the dizzy shaft seem ok, flush with the shaft and three dizzies and none will drop in properly.

johnbuckley....I think you might be onto the issue. Seems the lower shaft has risen bout 1/2". At least in my simplistic way of thinking that is what it feels like.

I've tried tapping lightly on the lower shaft and it doesn't wanna go down though, and doesn't rotate, seems engaged with the oil pump drive.

Maybe I should try and soak it with a good rust penetrant.

Anything better than kerosene for soaking lower shaft cavity?

[P.S.]

Use some needle nose pliers and pull the lower shaft out. Look down the hole with a flashlight and make sure the drive is clean and nothing fell in there.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by fried okra

Anything better than kerosene for soaking lower shaft cavity?

PB Blaster. Has a small content of "oil of wintergreen" which those who read of Jake Hohman on "The Sand Pebbles" will remember.

Highly penetrating to rust.

Comes in an aerosol can, also container which you will need a separate pump sprayer.

Automatic response from my wife "PHEW - what have you been into?"

Joe K

[fried okra]

Thanks, Joe and Paul....I was thinking our 3-4 major parts suppliers might have a lower dizzy shaft puller but didn't find anything. Nothing in my garage will pull it out yet either.

Will have to peruse Harbor Freight tonight and see what kinda pliers they have

[Bob C]

I tried some Harbor Freight hose pliers and the middle size would fit down the hole but I couldn't grab the shaft. I think If you heated the and bent the end to 90º instead of it's 45º it might work.
I had one that the offset of the drive gear and the lower shaft didn't match and somebody beat them together. Made a collet to pull it out.

[alexiskai]

I’ve used these to retrieve items from tight spaces, might work here.

[Gene F]

A telescoping magnet. Like a mechanic would wear in his shirt pocket. Sometimes those old screw starters that we'd wear in out shirt pockets had a magnet on the other end.

[fried okra]

Ha.....Alexiskai....that's exactly one of the ones I bought tonight and also bought a 15# pull magnet on a stalk as a possibility. Will see tomorrow what might hopefully work.

Am gonna soak in some PB Blaster that Joe K mentioned also.

BobC.....you outta make those collets and sell to our suppliers

[fried okra]

Gene F.....the magnet on a stick I bought from Harbor Freight tonight has a 15# pull rating.

If it is gonna come out easily, this outta do it

https://www.harborfreight.com/15-lb-...ool-64656.html

[jack wingard]

I've reviewed the posts and didn't read anywhere if you tried reinstalling the original that you removed to begin with. This could tell you a lot if it does or doesn't

[nkaminar]

You may want to remove valve cover as this will give you access to the drive gear and shaft.

[katy]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by jack wingard

I've reviewed the posts and didn't read anywhere if you tried reinstalling the original that you removed to begin with. This could tell you a lot if it does or doesn't

Post #1: "All three of my dizzies are similar. None will drop back in as they should."

[fried okra]

Thanks, Jack.....yep, trying to re-install the original and two others I've got. Have PB blaster soaking in the cavity now. It just seems as if the lower shaft has risen up bout 1/2" but is still engaged at the lower end for oil pump.

Yes, may need to remove the valve cover but am running a Weber carb setup and looks kinda tight to get to bolts under there.

[JRrev]

Am assuming the lower shaft rose and won't go down to it's original height. FWIW, I had the problem years ago when the locating pin would not go into the recess. It's been so long ago to remember, but I think I opened up the hole (oblonged) in the head to where the pin would drop in. It may have been an after-market head with the hole in the wrong position. One question I have is have you measured the center of the locating pin to the center of the shaft of the distributors to compare?

[Rob Doe]

There are some distributor castings out there that have the locating pin in the wrong place??? The distributor is off center, as in not parallel with the side of the block, by about 5 degrees. You had too turn the casting to the offset to get the pin to drop in the head.

If I remember, you had one of these distributors on the car and running right?

[Randall]

If it was mine I would put original one in and I know its not going all the way in, and hold it with the lock in head and start engine and see if it will help break whatever is holding it loose.

[fried okra]

Thanks group, it does seem that the lower shaft has risen maybe 1/2" but still appears engaged to the oil pump drive cause it will not rotate.

Yes, the original distributor was in the car and running fine when suddenly stalled due to losing spark.

Any idea why/how the lower shaft could rise bout 1/2" like that? In essence, the lower shaft is free to wobble easily now, after soaking heavily with PB blaster, but will not rotate.

All three dizzies have comparable dimensions and all will drop down only so far after appearing to engage the lower shaft. They seem to engage or lock into the lower shaft but are about 3/16" shy of allowing the distributor locating pin to reach the locating pin hole in the head.

I am thinking trying to pull the lower shaft out of the head and re-think what might be going on.

[Gene F]

Are you a member of your local club? What if a couple guys from the local club come over and take a look?

[fried okra]

Thanks, Gene.....may have to "bribe" someone to come over

[nkaminar]

Take the manifolds off and then the valve cover. Use the copper clad gaskets when you put the manifolds back on and torque the nuts to 55 foot-pounds. After the first 100 miles, re torque the manifold nuts. With your Weber carburetor and manifold you don't have to worry about having the manifolds in the same plane as they are not bolted together.

My Model T club had tech sessions where the club members would come to a member's house to solve a problem. The host would supply lunch, usually barbecue.

[fried okra]

Can the valve cover be taken off maybe without having to remove the intake manifold?

[katy]

Originally Posted by fried okra

Can the valve cover be taken off maybe without having to remove the intake manifold?

On a stock setup - yes.
I understand that you'rs is not exactly stock, so depending on how much different it is, the cover may or may not come off. It's worth a try.

[midgetracer]

My guess is that the drive for the distributor /oil pump has came up a bit and the oil pump is not aligned with the drive. Try using the crank to turn over the engine slowly and maybe the drive will align and drop down into place.

[fried okra]

Midgetracer.....that's kinda what I am wondering too.....why would it come up maybe?

Was thinking about trying to pull the lower shaft out of the cavity but maybe should try the hand crank idea first sounds like.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by midgetracer

My guess is that the drive for the distributor /oil pump has came up a bit and the oil pump is not aligned with the drive. Try using the crank to turn over the engine slowly and maybe the drive will align and drop down into place.

The drive is held down with a reasonably strong spring, so I don't see that happening unless the spring broke.

At this point I think I would pull the manifolds and side cover and have a look see what is going on. You have been struggling with this for ~3 days now. JMO

[Bob C]

I agree with Y-Blockhead, the suspense is killing me.

[midgetracer]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

The drive is held down with a reasonably strong spring, so I don't see that happening unless the spring broke.

At this point I think I would pull the manifolds and side cover and have a look see what is going on. You have been struggling with this for ~3 days now. JMO

I have pulled the distributor when the distributor shafts are stuck to the drive assembly and had the drive settle back , but not meshed with the oil pump. That is why I suggested cranking it over slowly to allow the drive to reseat on the oil pump. Something simple to try. I am quite sure that the drive is not seated. It is hard to think that something would hold the distributor up 1/2 inch.

[fried okra]

Midgetracer.....you are suggesting using the nut on front of crankshaft and turn CW when viewed from the front I think?

Any ideas what size the crank nut is?

Would need to crank it a couple turns maybe?

Thx group!!!!

[fried okra]

Looks like crank nut size is 1-3/8".....making slow progress

[Bill G]

Originally Posted by fried okra

Midgetracer.....you are suggesting using the nut on front of crankshaft and turn CW when viewed from the front I think?

Any ideas what size the crank nut is?

Would need to crank it a couple turns maybe?

Thx group!!!!

Do you not have a hand crank? It cranks clockwise (looking from the front) and fits inside that large nut. You can put the car in neutral and crank away.


You also realize that you will need to time your distributor all over again when you finally get it in.....Or at least check it if you put the original distributor back in.

[nkaminar]

https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/p...6987&cat=41753

[fried okra]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Thanks Bill_G.....I worked in the wheat and pea harvest out there in the Dayton-Walla Walla area summer of 1966. Good people out there.

I have a hand crank but using a radiator screen now which is hindering getting the hand crank in. I will work it out

[fried okra]

Yep, that's the hand crank I've got.

[Bill G]

With the radiator in place, there is not much clearance to get a wrench in and around the big nut. You could always crank it with the starter too....


Walla Walla and Dayton are great places, and yes, the wheat harvests are a big deal around here.

[nkaminar]

To turn over the engine, pull the plugs, jack up one rear wheel, put the car in high, and turn the wheel that is in the air.

[fried okra]

Good input group, many thanks.

Will get back on it tomorrow afternoon when temps warm back up.

[fried okra]

Pulled the plugs, rotated hand crank bout half a turn, and now all three dizzies drop easily and fully in place with lock pin in the hole in the head.

The top of the dizzy lower shaft dropped from 1-4/8" to the now 1-7/8" below the boss on the head. The lower shaft obviously had ridden up, although it didn't wanna go down when tapped.

Thanks group, now to figure out why lost spark.