Block Casting Numbers

[Branded]

Can anyone tell me what I have. D 21 4 11 See picture. Thanks Dave

[19Fordy]

Probably a foundry casting number of some type.
Would be neat to know how to decipher it.

Perhaps it's the ID number of the pattern used
to make the casting. Wonder if there's another block with that same "batch" number and manufacturer casting codes.

Here's an interesting article about this.
http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_m...Trademarks.pdf

[JSeery]

Some photos of the rest of the block would help. If the hole drilled nearer the centerline is original one would guess it was a wartime block. It would at least be war years or later.

[Brian]

I agree; wartime military block

[Branded]

Pictures

[Branded]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

More

[Branded]

Another

[Branded]

From the rear

[Branded]

Originally Posted by Brian

I agree; wartime military block

So is that a good or bad thing?

[Branded]

I’ve just noticed my 1940 block is flat with raised exhaust ports this block is curved between the exhaust ports.

[Brian]

So is that a good or bad thing?


Neither good nor bad...it is just the timeframe that engine was made in. Does it have the 'raised' intake surface?

[Branded]

Originally Posted by Brian

So is that a good or bad thing?


Neither good nor bad...it is just the timeframe that engine was made in. Does it have the 'raised' intake surface?

Yes the intake area is raised just slightly. I’ve done some research and googled VanPelts and I’m thinking it’s a 41-42 block. Raised intake area and block curved between exhaust ports.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Branded

Can anyone tell me what I have. D 21 4 11 See picture. Thanks Dave

Almost ALWAYS, a raised sequence on a casting is the cast identification. Your D21411 is just that, a cast number.
Numbers that are cast IN TO the casting are typically indicative of model, serial, etc.

[Branded]

Originally Posted by Kube

Almost ALWAYS, a raised sequence on a casting is the cast identification. Your D21411 is just that, a cast number.
Numbers that are cast IN TO the casting are typically indicative of model, serial, etc.

Mac also mention this on his write up.

The foundry would also place what were probably "lot" or "production" numbers in the castings on all blocks. These were usually a small group of letters and numbers cast on the top of the bell housing....right next to the vertical surface of the back of the block. Unfortunately, any records of these numbers are long gone and they provide no clues as to the particulars of any engines.

[rotorwrench]

A lot of the wartime Canadian blocks use the oil port toward the center on the back of the block for an oil cooler or a set up with a cooler and filter. Wartime US blocks will too if it was set up for a T16 Universal Carrier. A person has to check the return port configuration to make sure there is no blockage there. The war time oil systems were different than the civilian set ups.There are some good threads about those systems if a person does a search here or on google. I know this is a 24 stud engine but I wonder if it is a 221 or a 239 CID engine. Externally, it's kind of hard to tell. The 29A engine is a lot like the 59A engine of 1946 civilian production but there are some differences.

[tubman]

I think some more research is required. I have spent a lot of time in the "Corvette World", where casting numbers and dates can make or break a car. Invariably, a casting number is part of the mold, so it shows up without the impressions of screw heads, which this one has. Whenever we see numbers with the screw heads next to them, they are date codes. It's only logical; casting numbers would be part of the mold, but date codes would be a plate periodically attached to the mold with screws. In the "Corvette World", date codes are usually a single digit for the year, a letter for the month, and a digit or two for the day of the month, with a shift code. If the Ford Foundry was trying to keep strict track of the quality control process, they may have used hours, instead of shift. In this context, The code shown could be interpreted as D (April), the 21st (day), of 1944, at 11 o'clock. With most agreeing that this is a wartime military block, this makes perfect sense to me.

I am no expert on early Fords, but I am with the manufacturing quality control process (at least at GM). For too long, everyone in the flathead world has been dismissing these (obviously) attached numbers of having no meaning. I, for one, believe the whole thing needs to be revisited.

[rotorwrench]

Most will state that they are basically an unknown since there is no information to the contrary. Many had a date code stamped into the intake deck along with inspection stamps and the like after machining operations were completed. The outer shell was the first thing set up in the core box so the numbers would have been fixed the the pattern for the shell. Wartime castings may have had date codes and/or contract codes or the like per the foundry practices of the time.

[tubman]

I think I just provided information to the contrary. I think a survey on these blocks would show that these are date codes, whether required by the government or some other entity. The key here to me is whether there are screw head impressions or not. Quality control has always been important in any manufacturing process, and if defects start to show up. the first thing the manufacturer would want to know is when it started happening. I reiterate, I believe this needs more research. If there is some information to be had from this casting numbers, we should do our best to determine what it is.

Just because all the experts have been saying for years that these number are not interpretible (is that a real word?) is not reason enough to disregard them (at least not for me) when there may be another logical interpretation.

[RobR'35]

Ford was stickler on quality and records.
Some place there has to be knowledge on this. Whether it be stamped numbers, cast numbers.
First thing that comes to mind is the Benson Research center in Dearborn.
Have all the documents that there are been cataloged?
Are they just in files to be discovered yet?
I've never been there but have heard about it. Fellas that worked in the Rouge in these areas where the stamping (inspections) took place and the cast line.
I realize many of these folks aren't with us any longer but...... Someone knows something somehow.
It's an interesting subject for sure.

[cas3]

robr35, this topic has never been solved. i have personally never been to dearborn to do any research, but many folks more devoted to the research of our old fords than me have tried. the general thoughts are these records were only of interest to the foundry, not a blueprint or any other thing worthy of record to the ford parts system. not an expert here, just my conclusion of seeing this topic come up many times

[flatjack9]

My understanding is that a lot of records were lost in a fire.

[tubman]

I still say it's a date code. Does anyone else out there have a similar block or blocks laying around with the same type of cast-in information on it? If we could find a few and determine if there is a pattern, it would be good information to have.

(For example if someone would find "E 12 3 12", it would encode to March 12, 1943. I for one would like to know.)

[philipswanson]

Originally Posted by tubman

In the "Corvette World", date codes are usually a single digit for the year, a letter for the month, and a digit or two for the day of the month, with a shift code.

In the "Corvette World" everybody's busy re-stamping blocks. There are people that recreate the original milling marks, then professionally re-stamping and do a super job.

[JSeery]

There are other references to date codes that do not match the later ones you are using, so not sure you can infer them backwards.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by philipswanson

In the "Corvette World" everybody's busy re-stamping blocks. There are people that recreate the original milling marks, then professionally re-stamping and do a super job.

We're not talking stamping numbers into blocks here, were are talking about the numbers cast into the block itself when it is made. Also, don't be so quick to denigrate the "Corvette World". Those counterfeiting broach marks and re-stamping engine pads are a small criminal criminal minority. Do you know what happens if a counterfeit car is detected in NCRS judging (the only standard that really counts over there)? That car is PERMANENTLY banned from judging and blacklisted as a counterfeit. The Corvette guys are the ones who figured out how the date coding and engine coding worked in the first place. The muscle car world owes them a lot, and I think we should try to benefit from their efforts instead of knocking them. Some of the guys that participated worked on the line for Chevrolet when those cars were being made, so they had inside knowledge of the process.

"Engage brain before releasing mouth".

[tubman]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by JSeery

There are other references to date codes that do not match the later ones you are using, so not sure you can infer them backwards.

Do you have any specific examples? All I am saying is the the casting code we are concerned with on this particular thread looks a lot like a date code to me, and the date seems to fit the era of the engine. We need more information.

[rotorwrench]

Ford had done about everything possible to keep production as fast as possible. I can't really see them setting up for core mold pattern changes more than once a day. Ford did keep records for civilian production by stamping the ID number in the transmission but I don't think they cared about cataloging anything but lot numbers when it came to castings. This could include quite a number of castings per day just in US production alone. Ford employees that needed to know would likely know the meaning but most of those folks aren't around anymore.

It would be interesting to see a film of the casting process for the V8 block. I've read in Charlie Sorenson's book about how the pouring line was set up. They actually had smelter pot equipment that could move along with the molds during the pouring process so as not to stop the movement of the molds during the cool down process. From the description it sounds like quite a feat of engineering & tooling set up. Everything moved like clockwork to get the most reliable cool down to prevent cracking and casting flaws. They had a very good success rate on castings.

[tubman]

Why do all of you guys insist on dismissing this "out of hand"? The particular casting numbers concerned look very much like a date code to me. What's wrong with doing a little more research to see if this leads anywhere? Find me a "Z 97 X V" on a similar block and I'll probably drop this line of thinking. If numbers such as "G 28 3 12", F 03 4 6", or "L 16 3 6" keep showing up, we may be on to something. I wouldn't make a judgement with a sample size of anything less than 20.

Again, I have made no judgments on whether this is right or not, just that it needs to be pursued a bit more. Those number are on there for a purpose, and I'll bet it has something to do with quality control. Mr. "rotorwrench", don't you think that GM had just as much incentive to keep production "as fast as possible" in the sixties and seventies? And yet, they had time to keep properly date-coding their castings. Nothing will slow a production line down like a big batch of bad castings.

[JSeery]

This is a totally different dating code system.

[rotorwrench]

Codes are codes whether it's a date or not it usually does mean something. All I can say is that you won't know for sure unless you can find a reference to it somewhere or someone still alive that knows. I've seen photos of blocks stacked for storage (seasoning) prior to machining and painting but I think they stopped doing that after the blocks proved to be sturdy enough to meet warranty. If they had a problem at the engine turning stations, they would likely note the numbers for the paperwork that went with the engine to the repair shop. After they found what the problem was then some notice was likely sent out to whatever line was applicable to let the supervisor know what to be on the look out for. There is no doubt that Ford supervisors and engineers could ID stuff for rework or scrap if there was a problem getting out of hand.

Chevrolet always had the ID number stamped on the engine back in the day. They didn't stamp anything on the frame or body. If you changed your engine out you had to get a state issued VIN plate installed. I went through that with an old 1953 Chevrolet 3100 deluxe pickup I drove back in high school. I suspect that practice dated back a long way. Things changed in later years when the government started adding regulations. That old 216 6-banger still had poured babbitt rod bearings in it.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by JSeery

This is a totally different dating code system.

"Totally different"? I think not. Those combinations are eerily similar to the ones on the wartime engines. "G 20 B" is quite similar to "D 21 4". The wartime code uses a different month coding and a number for the year. The later one uses a letter for the year. Companies (and governments) change coding schemes all the time.

As to "rotorwrenchhs" remark, If I found a set of at least 20 of similar wartime engines that all fit the scheme and were date-correct, I think I wouldn't need a reference or anyone with experience.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by tubman

"Totally different"? I think not. Those combinations are eerily similar to the ones on the wartime engines. "G 20 B" is quite similar to "D 21 4". The wartime code uses a different month coding and a number for the year. The later one uses a letter for the year. Companies (and governments) change coding schemes all the time.

Not sure I follow the logic here, one dating system in the war years, a different coding for the 8ba and then back to the war years system in the mid-fifties. But if you think this has some validity, see if you can find (or Barner's provide info) blocks with foundry marking that fit a pattern.

[tubman]

That's all I ask.

[rotorwrench]

Another thing you need to keep in mind is the posibility that the engine pictured previously was produced in Canada. The Canadian Ford company didn't follow the same practices that were followed in the US at the Rouge. It may be a 221 but I can't tell for certain if it would pass the pencil test or not. Canada was geared up for war by mid 1940 so they were involved in that a good bit before the US was. There numbering or coding of engine blocks may have been different than in the US. The US production of V8 engines was limited during the war. They were heavily involved in production of the GAA V8 engine for tanks so I doubt that they were producing the 200 smaller V8 blocks per hour that they were prior to the war. They were also producing the G series 6-cylinder for trucks.

[Mart]

The numbers may be a date code, but may also be some sort of batch code for example which moulds were used, which cores etc, for traceability in the event of a problem. It could be which shift, which line, which team, anything.

As it looks military I would also be checking the oil passages for restrictions or special fittings.

Mart.

[JSeery]

The "raised" intake should narrow the date range down. Did Canada cast any "raised" intake blocks? Does anyone know the date range for the "raised" intake blocks, I have what I believe is a 41? I never paid any attention to any marks on the bellhousing, I'll take a look.

[rotorwrench]

Originally Posted by Mart

The numbers may be a date code, but may also be some sort of batch code for example which moulds were used, which cores etc, for traceability in the event of a problem. It could be which shift, which line, which team, anything.

As it looks military I would also be checking the oil passages for restrictions or special fittings.

Mart.

I went back and re-read Charlie Sorensen's book section where he mentions the USA set up of the V8 foundry line. He called the outer shell of the mold a flask. They would put the block outer shell pattern into the flask and hopper in the sand through special chutes so they used no shovels to speed the fill process up. They had an up to down mechanism that would drop the flask periodically to pack it so they wouldn't have to tamp it at all. They would separate the flask, remove the block outer shell pattern, and lift the flask up onto a conveyor but I don't know the exact order that this was done in. The mold then traveled down the assembly line to insert the cores. You can see the places where the soft wire was used to secure each core part in the finished product if you look around at it. They likely tried to put the wire in locations that made the casting fill in around it better for a more seamless finish. The wire was soft and would just melt into the casing after it was poured.

The outer shell pattern would have places to attach any casting number mold blocks to it but this may have been changed every time they replaced the shell mold patterns to do changes or updates. We know they made a few changes in first year or so, in 1935 for the wide insert bearing, in 1937 for water pumps, and in 1938 for the 24 stud decks. The 99A was a big change but they produced 221 and 239 engines at the same time. 1941 had the change to delete the core openings on the pan rails and decrease the amount of iron that went into the intake deck area. All of these changes would required new outer shell mold patterns. Ford's patterns were made from metal but I don't know what the process was to fabricate them or whether they were a casting. They may have been aluminum castings to make them light weight for handling but I don't know for sure. They had to go through a cleaning process during each mold cycle and there were undoubtedly a lot of mold flasks for this process. To get 200 castings an hour out would have required a lot of employees and a lot of tooling. Changing the code on the mold pattern would have taken some time so I don't know how many cycles would have been done before any change to patterns was made. It may have been done in the cleaning process or it may have been only once a day for all I know. It may have been a permanent fixture for each mold pattern in case problems showed up. That way it could be traced back to it.

[marko39]

checked a block pulled from a 39 car. i see F 1C 1 11 on back of bell. these are recessed instead of protruding and not easy to make out. my 38 block has no such markings.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by marko39

checked a block pulled from a 39 car. i see F 1C 1 11 on back of bell. these are recessed instead of protruding and not easy to make out. my 38 block has no such markings.

"marko39" - This is good information to have. Would it be possible for you to post a picture of this? Also, does your block have the impressions of the screwheads like the ones shown in the first post? Thanks for your interest.

[JSeery]

Just checked my raised intake block (I think it is a 41, but who knows). The first letter is a "J", the rest is difficult to make out, but the second figure looks like an 8.

[tubman]

As far as this is concerned, the important thing to me is if there are impressions of screwheads in the block. These indicate to me an ongoing attempt at identifying blocks for quality control purposes.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by tubman

As far as this is concerned, the important thing to me is if there are impressions of screwheads in the block. These indicate to me an ongoing attempt at identifying blocks for quality control purposes.

That is true in the case of my block, the figures appear to have been on a small rectangular plate with slot head screws on each end.

[marko39]

Originally Posted by tubman

"marko39" - This is good information to have. Would it be possible for you to post a picture of this? Also, does your block have the impressions of the screwheads like the ones shown in the first post? Thanks for your interest.

it does have the screw head impressions like in the first post. sorry, i am not advanced enough to post pictures but when my son comes over i will see if he can do it. another point is engine has ford rebuild tag so it may not be orriginal to car or a 39 for that matter .Mark