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Old 03-14-2011, 12:21 PM   #21
wcolo
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Default Re: Model A horns

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Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian View Post
wcolo,

" If I were to rate horns on performance, from best to worst, I would rate S/W, then Sparton, followed by AMES and GMI together, and EA at a distant last. I am not an EA fan. I have done them for restoration, but have never gotten the sound out them as I do with S/W's and Spartons and generally their condition seems poor since most are found back east. All of my comments are based upon what I have observed from the many restorations I have done. Yes, I am a Stewart/Warner fan. "

Are you saying that the horns are regional? My car was built in San Fransisco in
mid 1928. Which horns were typical for a SFA mid 28, any idea? Also, I'm look for
an EA motor base/with a motor...that has a nice stamp.

Thanks, Dudley
Dudley, I have observed where my horns were shipped from. I do not think there were any rules other than horn manufacturing location versus where the assembly plants were located. Although, I have found very few EA's out west, where I live, plus most I have picked up are so-so condition. I do have one early domed EA horn I may be selling, I have restored the horn(I do this professionally) and it came out fairly decent. The EA stamping on the lip ranged from not there to a light stamped EA, about 3/16" high, so I would not worry much about that unless you have judges that do NOT know horns.
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Old 03-14-2011, 12:26 PM   #22
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Default Re: Model A horns

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I have 4 horns on the bench now. Two Spartons and 2 SW's. Planning to sell the Spartons and use keep the SW's for my Delivery snd for Dad's special coupe. Now that the temps are getting warmer all will be going over to a local shop so I can beadblast them and bring them home to paint and assemble. Likely will be about another month before all are ready.My biggest delima is what to do with the dates on the repop tags. I may leave them off and send them with the horns so the buyer can stamp his own dates on them. The early EA horn I had seemed to have the best sound. Rod
Be careful with those S/W's, the armature shaft has a reverse nut that holds on the rotary rachet gear that rotates against the vibrator pile on the vibrator disk. If you torque it the wrong way, you twist off the nut and screw, then you have major problems, hard to fix right, and the armatures are not available reproduction. Call A&L Parts Specialities, 860-693-0112 to purchase pre-stamped Sparton labels.
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Old 03-14-2011, 12:44 PM   #23
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Default Re: Model A horns

I bought my parts from A&L, but since I did not want to limit the market of the horns by putting a date on them , I opted to leave them blank so whoever purchases them can have a fitting date of their own put on. I will be careful as I had to have one armerature rewound. Rod
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Old 03-14-2011, 07:21 PM   #24
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Default Re: Model A horns

Ok, judges chime in and tell us what's wrong with the repo Sparton tags if they're stamped with the correct date?
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Old 03-14-2011, 07:31 PM   #25
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Default Re: Model A horns

Glenn,

I have a good idea on the Sparton tags(I think), BUT I want to know if the
horns, in some way, are regional. That would be damned interesting !!! Judges?

Dudley
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Old 03-14-2011, 10:47 PM   #26
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Default Re: Model A horns

I see on ebay there is a Hutchens horn. I never heard of it and was wondering if anyone else knows anything about them.
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Old 03-14-2011, 11:00 PM   #27
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Default Re: Model A horns

Taking the Sparton tag hype to the extreme, I've observed several horns of other manufacture that had the lousy Sparton tags attached by amateur messtorers.
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Old 03-15-2011, 05:20 PM   #28
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Default Re: Model A horns

Since there was considerable discussion about the Sparton tags, I'm posting a photo of a new old stock Sparton tag. It comes from a new old stock Sparton horn in like new condition. I'm sorry I don't have a repro tag for a side by side comparison. But, the repro tag has much redder writing on it and has much more shine overall with its brand new plating. The repro is a fine tag to use, but yes, the judges downgrade for them as repro.
I simply got lucky on this one, as my Coupe is a March 1930, and my friend's Tudor is January 1930, so he could not use this tag. When he compared the original tag to a repro, he decided to use a Stewart Warner and be done with the tag issue once and for all. I got the leftover nos horn. I plan on using the original tag for show. Sweet!

Dave Lopes
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File Type: jpg Sparton NOS Tag .jpg (36.4 KB, 153 views)
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Old 03-15-2011, 05:53 PM   #29
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Default Re: Model A horns

this is the original tag from our horn..
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Old 03-16-2011, 11:11 PM   #30
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Default Re: Model A horns

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I see on ebay there is a Hutchens horn. I never heard of it and was wondering if anyone else knows anything about them.
Hutchins Horns were made in the 1960's through the early 1970's and made or marketed out of St. Charles, Mo.(I think near St. Louis). They cost around $12 to $14 as new and were sold by many outfits such as Sears, Wards, Warshawskis, JC Whitney. Definitely an aftermarket Ahooga horn, heavy and work fairly well, but look horrible on a Model A. If a Model A owner has one on his car, he is labeled as a D.....b S......t. Not my favorite horn, I have picked up two Model A's with them installed, they were removed Warp Speed and placed for auction on the EBay place.
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Old 03-16-2011, 11:15 PM   #31
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this is the original tag from our horn..
I have never run across one that good on the un-restored Spartons I have restored. I have restored probably 50 Spartons in the past few years, ALL had darkened labels with usually the date the only readible item. You were quite lucky to find a tag that nice on a Sparton Horn, was it from a NOS horn?
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Old 03-17-2011, 09:16 PM   #32
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Default Re: Model A horns

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Originally Posted by henry494 View Post
Since there was considerable discussion about the Sparton tags, I'm posting a photo of a new old stock Sparton tag. It comes from a new old stock Sparton horn in like new condition. I'm sorry I don't have a repro tag for a side by side comparison. But, the repro tag has much redder writing on it and has much more shine overall with its brand new plating. The repro is a fine tag to use, but yes, the judges downgrade for them as repro.
I simply got lucky on this one, as my Coupe is a March 1930, and my friend's Tudor is January 1930, so he could not use this tag. When he compared the original tag to a repro, he decided to use a Stewart Warner and be done with the tag issue once and for all. I got the leftover nos horn. I plan on using the original tag for show. Sweet!

Dave Lopes
Dave, I have restored over 100 horns, most Spatons and Stewart/Warners. I have never run across a decent label on any of the un-restored Spartons I have either purchased or rebuilt for a customer. With this dilemma, a judge that deducts for a reproduction label is plain stupid or maybe senile. I know of no NOS labels available on earth, yours is the only one I have seen, does this mean this picky judge has access to NOS original labels, how does he know the difference, unless he restores horns and had NOS labels? Do they also deduct for a black, un-readible original label or are they acceptable?? With this judging mess, that leaves Stewart/Warners for cars to be judged and of course they must have deep factory stampings, I seen many examples of original not rusted very light factory stampings on S/W's and always AMES, will they deduct for this also?
Bennett
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Old 03-17-2011, 10:09 PM   #33
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Labels Again:
I just compared my 1929 reproduction label with original label above, marked 1929, the 1928 and 1929 labels have the "other patent pending" in the far right side in small black print. I cannot tell the difference between my reproduction I bought from Brattons and the original. This also holds true also with the 1930 original label shown above, it is identical in all respects to my Brattons reproduction, color, print and everything else. The 1930-1931 labels have the patents listed in small black print on the far right(four patents).

I do know A&L Parts Specialities will pre-stamp you labels. I plan on getting some of them in the future. I am positive you could slightly weather an A&L stamped Sparton label and no judge alive would know the difference. I have a copy of the judging standards, and I did not run across this picky issue in the standards, but mine are 1998 or so dated. Are judges getting this picky?? If they are, I recommend they retire or buy a Yugo to judge.
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Old 03-19-2011, 07:13 PM   #34
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Default Re: Model A horns

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Labels Again:
I do know A&L Parts Specialities will pre-stamp you labels. I plan on getting some of them in the future. I am positive you could slightly weather an A&L stamped Sparton label and no judge alive would know the difference. I have a copy of the judging standards, and I did not run across this picky issue in the standards, but mine are 1998 or so dated. Are judges getting this picky?? If they are, I recommend they retire or buy a Yugo to judge.
Bennett
If you read the preface you will find anything distinguishable from original should receive a deduction. This has always been the case. The "Standards" does NOT describe the nuances of various reproduction parts.

I find it interesting how many folks believe they should receive the same score for an nice looking "off the shelf" part as the guy next to him with the real deal in perfect condition, whether it be a NOS part or a painstakingly restored part. If the judge can't tell the difference due to inexperience OR the car owner
has successfully doctored the new part to match the the real deal then the reproduction piece will indeed receive the same score. In my opinion that is the way it should be. Oftenthe car ownerdoesn't know the difference or simply can't see it but that doesn't entitle him to a free ride.
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Old 03-19-2011, 10:00 PM   #35
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Taking the Sparton tag hype to the extreme, I've observed several horns of other manufacture that had the lousy Sparton tags attached by amateur messtorers.
Unfortunately these show up on the EBay place all to often, and of course, the Hutchins with the Sparton Tag is immediately an original Sparton, and the idiots selling will not listen to reason when you explain what has happened, so your report them to the EBay place as a fradulent listing, and of course the EBay place, staffed by 25 something air-heads that only know how to text and Facebook, but no nothing about antique vehicles, history or anything else interesting, subsequently nothing happens. I have seen this more than once.
Bennett Y.
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Old 03-19-2011, 10:06 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras View Post
If you read the preface you will find anything distinguishable from original should receive a deduction. This has always been the case. The "Standards" does NOT describe the nuances of various reproduction parts.

I find it interesting how many folks believe they should receive the same score for an nice looking "off the shelf" part as the guy next to him with the real deal in perfect condition, whether it be a NOS part or a painstakingly restored part. If the judge can't tell the difference due to inexperience OR the car owner has successfully doctored the new part to match the the real deal then the reproduction piece will indeed receive the same score. In my opinion that is the way it should be. Oftenthe car ownerdoesn't know the difference or simply can't see it but that doesn't entitle him to a free ride.

If you have any of those NOS labels, I would certainly be interested. I did not know that labels were now part of the judging, but in Western Colorado, we drive our Model A's, since there are no clubs over here, only in Eastern Colorado. Is the Sparton label issue covered in the latest upgrades of the Judging Standards? If so, sound like I need that update, but then again if I cannot get NOS labels, what then??
Bennett Y.
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Old 03-19-2011, 10:12 PM   #37
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If you have any of those NOS labels, I would certainly be interested. I did not know that labels were now part of the judging, but in Western Colorado, we drive our Model A's, since there are no clubs over here, only in Eastern Colorado. Is the Sparton label issue covered in the latest upgrades of the Judging Standards? If so, sound like I need that update, but then again if I cannot get NOS labels, what then??
Bennett Y.

Folks, if this Sparton Label issue is going on with judges, I recommend using Stewart/Warner Horns with excellent deep stamped markings and avoid the Sparton label issues, frankly I have done dozens of Spartons and NEVER have run across a decent looking un-restored label. I would surely love to have a bunch.
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Old 03-20-2011, 12:02 AM   #38
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Default Re: Model A horns

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Originally Posted by wcolo View Post
If you have any of those NOS labels, I would certainly be interested. I did not know that labels were now part of the judging, but in Western Colorado, we drive our Model A's, since there are no clubs over here, only in Eastern Colorado. Is the Sparton label issue covered in the latest upgrades of the Judging Standards? If so, sound like I need that update, but then again if I cannot get NOS labels, what then??
Bennett Y.
The revision should include a photo for reference. In reality 99.999% of folks don't care as long as the horn looks nice and functions properly. IF you encounter someone that is truly concerned you have two simple and logical solutions:

1. DO NOT offer to help them build the first ever 500 point car!

2. Advise them to show with a horn that requires no tag (Stewart Warner, etc.) so all commonly available original parts can be used. And PLEASE, use properly restored original nuts and bolts, and remember to put a THIN coat of black enamel on the diaphragm!
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Old 03-20-2011, 01:14 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras View Post
The revision should include a photo for reference. In reality 99.999% of folks don't care as long as the horn looks nice and functions properly. IF you encounter someone that is truly concerned you have two simple and logical solutions:

1. DO NOT offer to help them build the first ever 500 point car!

2. Advise them to show with a horn that requires no tag (Stewart Warner, etc.) so all commonly available original parts can be used. And PLEASE, use properly restored original nuts and bolts, and remember to put a THIN coat of black enamel on the diaphragm!
Sir, I am aware of the correct nuts and bolts and the thin coat of black enamal, and that is how I try to restore them, pitted horns are a problem, takes more than one coat and they never make show horns, but a show horn S/W should be essentially rust free, and I have run across some very nice rust and dent free S/W's, especially here in the West. I will always recommend S/W's in the future if the car is to be shown. I honestly did not realize that judging was getting so specific as to question the Sparton labels, I can understand if they are reproductions that are not correctly stamped, but there are some beautiful Sparton label reproductions available right now that can be properly stamped. I run a S/W on my 1930 Roadster, mainly because it functions so well.
Sincerely,
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Old 05-20-2011, 03:27 PM   #40
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Rowdy,
I would get the stamped Reproduction labels from A&L install on the Sparton caps, and provide the original labels with the horns when you sell. I have seen the recent reproduction labels from Bratton's and they are quite nice, I sure the A&L ones are also, the older reproduction labels I have run across simply are not as nice as the most recent stuff. It sounds from the above discussions that taking Spartons to a Model A Judging show with anal type A judges will cost you points, since only god can restore those original labels to their new original glory.
Bennett
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