59AB Going into my '33 Truck, Generator Question

['32FordNut]

Good Evening, I finished my '32 water pumps and now I'm moving back to my engine swap on my truck. I'm taking the 4 banger out and putting in a 42-48 59AB. Does anyone know what generator, fan and bracket system I can use??

I have half the people telling me to put the generator/fan on the intake manifold and the other half saying the generator mounts on the manifold and then a drop down bracket with the fan and hub mounted on that. I have a stock radiator if that helps. Can I use the generator/fan on the manifold or do I need the drop down bracket with the fan & hub, that's the question boiled down, which setup? Thanks again for any help. Jeff

[jimTN]

Use a gen with a fan on it, either a 33-8 w/cutout out 39 with voltage reg. Yes, it mounts on the manifold. You will need to use a 33/4 fan because it has the correct spacer on it.

['32FordNut]

Originally Posted by jimTN

Use a gen with a fan on it, either a 33-8 w/cutout out 39 with voltage reg. Yes, it mounts on the manifold. You will need to use a 33/4 fan because it has the correct spacer on it.

Thank you Jim, If I use the generator with the fan on it, I will need to change the crank pulley to just one instead of a double, correct. The crank, fan & water pumps will all run on just one belt, correct? Thank you for your help!!

I'm setup right now with 2 pulleys and the drop down. A friend of mine gave me the bad news and said that was wrong for the 33 truck. That's when it started, it was 50/50 with everyone's opinion, but the friend of mine who told me is an expert on 33/34's, however has never done a truck. He also told me that I'll probably never find the correct generator & fan since he hasn't seen one in years around here in CA at swap meets. Any suggestions to locate one? Thanks again, Jeff

[deuce lover]

What transmission and rear end are you planning to run? The original 33-34 Ford 4cyl pickups torque tube and driveshaft are not the same length as the V8.

['32FordNut]

I found that out also after 50% were telling me it'll bolt right up and the others saying it's about 1-1/2" short between the 4 banger and the V8. So I have a longer driveshaft and tube that I already bought. I'm running a '39 trans with the stock rear end that has 3.73 (?) gears. The gears are definitely not 4.11's. I have 4.11's on all my '32's except my 3-W and it has a Columbia. I hate 4.11's in the LA area and 4 bangers. LOL

Thanks for the heads up on the driveshaft, I appreciate your input.

[V8COOPMAN]

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Originally Posted by deuce lover

What transmission and rear end are you planning to run? The original 33-34 Ford 4cyl pickups torque tube and driveshaft are not the same length as the V8.

Sheldon is correct! All (not just pick-ups) '33 & '34 4-CYLINDER driveshafts and torque tubes are 1-1/2" SHORTER than the V8 tubes and shafts. The difference seen BELOW!

Coop




.

[deuce lover]

33-34's did not have 3.78 UNLESS it was changed out with 35-37 3.78 10 spline gear set.Machining is required to do that. 4.11 and 3.54 were the only gear sets in 33-34.If you have the 33-34 rear look on the bottom side web of the banjo center section and see what numbers are stamped .

[Newc]

The generator '39 Standard type with the fan mount can be found on the 'Barn'. Newc

[bobH]

Yes (to Sheldon's post #7), and as he is aware, I put the 3.78 gears in my 33-34. In my opinion, I got lucky, as I was really happy with those gears. (36LB engine, and living in the mountains.) As to the original generator question, I used the 33-34 generator with fan on it. Not much room in there, and the 33-34 stuff fits. I'm doubtful about room for the later 'drop-down' arrangement (although I never tried it).

['32FordNut]

Thank you all. Coop, wow that is some trick things that were fabricated. I wish I knew just a fraction of what y'all know. The engine I'm putting in is a 59AB from a friend of mine that had it in his 1936 Ford Pickup. He gave it to me when he screwed up a piston. I had it all machined, sleeved and rebuilt, I think .30-.40 over. I think it is a 42-48 engine with the crab type distributor. He kept the generator setup that he used on his new motor that he put in. So I'm just not that smart with experience to know exactly what year the motor is. I do know the oil pan is from a 1-1/2 ton or bigger truck, because it's the 2 piece one and the smaller part is missing. So I have some problems. But I want that 4 banger out of there and this new engine put in so I can have some fun with it. No offense, I have no fun in 4 cylinders, and they leak like crazy!!

['32FordNut]

Originally Posted by deuce lover

33-34's did not have 3.78 UNLESS it was changed out with 35-37 3.78 10 spline gear set.Machining is required to do that. 4.11 and 3.54 were the only gear sets in 33-34.If you have the 33-34 rear look on the bottom side web of the banjo center section and see what numbers are stamped .

Thanks Sheldon!! I'm going to look and see if there are any numbers stamped on that rear end. I bought 3 cars from a friend of mine when he dies and they let me have first choice. I bought his 2 '32 Roadsters and this '33 Truck. He was a lakes racer and has several records, so if the rear end needed any machining or work, he would have done that with no problem. His name was Harold Johannsen if that rings any bells. He setup all his cars with down draft carbs, adjustable valves, pressure oil pumps, etc. Thankfully, the 2 roadsters are V8's, LOL.

['32FordNut]

Originally Posted by Newc

The generator '39 Standard type with the fan mount can be found on the 'Barn'. Newc

Newc, will the '39 generator fit on my early '33 truck? I think BobH said I should use the early (33-34) generator, that fits in with the room. I do have a friend that has a setup that is off his 59A but it's from 1947 he said. That sits on the manifold with no drop down bracket.

[bobH]

I 'schemed' on how to use a 47 generator. Never came up with a satisfactory way to mount the fan. However, having said that, I believe I read somewhere (probably here) that 'someone', maybe Charlie, came up with the necessary machine work to use a gen-mounted fan. It's been quite awhile, and my memory aint great, so not sure of that. (And, be careful with the 47 gen.... pretty sure it's a screw-on pulley. Might want to unscrew??) Someone here will know more than I can remember....

[Bored&Stroked]

You should be able to use the early generator - 3 brush - that has the front fan mount pulley. I believe all of these used a cutout instead of a voltage regulator, not sure if that can be changed or not?

[deuce lover]

The 39 "Standard" generator is a 2 brush and has the fan mount pulley.It should work fine with your combination.You will need a 33-36 fan.Those generators are tough to find. The ones I had I sent to Whitney & Co in Fullerton for the alternator conversion.They offer the alt conversion for all those early V8 generators. Since you are putting a later flathead in the '33 chassis you will need the "U" shaped spacer for the front motor mount support
Like these on EBAY now.

[jimTN]

You also can hacksaw the extra pulley from the later double pully so you will have clearance with the crossmember. If I remember correct, you can also switch bearings in the front of a later gen, roller to thrust bearing and that will make the later gen usable. If you have a screw on pulley, it should have a circlip on the outside of your pulley after it is installed to keep the pulley from unscrewing.

[blucar]

Deuce lover's comment in #15 is correct about a '39 generator, however, the comment about the needing '49-50 Merc water pump mount adapters on a 59AB installation into a EFV8 is wrong.. The '49-50 Mercs adapters are only required on the 8BA/8CM engines, 49-53.
I converted the generator on my '36 from a three brush shunt, to a 39 two brush w/ regulator in '52. The '39-48 generators are basically the same except for the pulley, which has provisions for the fan blade to mount to the front of the generator with 4, 1/4" bolts.
I think it should be pretty simple to remove the outer pulley from the pulley, quite often the second pulley is bolted to the assembly.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by blucar

Deuce lover's comment in #15 is correct about a '39 generator, however, the comment about the needing '49-50 Merc water pump mount adapters on a 59AB installation into a EFV8 is wrong.. The '49-50 Mercs adapters are only required on the 8BA/8CM engines, 49-53.
I converted the generator on my '36 from a three brush shunt, to a 39 two brush w/ regulator in '52. The '39-48 generators are basically the same except for the pulley, which has provisions for the fan blade to mount to the front of the generator with 4, 1/4" bolts.
I think it should be pretty simple to remove the outer pulley from the pulley, quite often the second pulley is bolted to the assembly.

Only the '49-'51 Mercs had the "ear" motor mounts on the side. The rest of the 8BA series engines had the mounting surface mounted at an angle on the bottom of the water pump. Also, there is a difference in the motor mount heights between the '32-'40' cars and the '41-'48 cars. Hurst sold adapters specifically for this use. Their front mounts bolt directly to the frame in the later cars, but they recommended spacers for the early cars. Since the Hurst series 202 mounts are an exact analog of the front mounting geometry of the later cars, it stands to reason that the 59A needs the spacers as well (item # SP-150 in the attached diagram). Whether these spaces are the same as the 8CM units escapes me at the moment.

[deuce lover]

Blucar.With all due respect.Were talking about the 59A,not the 8BA.That what was on the 59A in my 34 Vic in 1968.A friend just installed a 59A in his '33 roadster here and he made his own rather than order from US.Been there and done that one.

[bobH]

A little more, with regard to posts 17 and 18.... The 'spacing' in the 33 chassis is different, compared to the spacing of motor mount holes for, say, 37-48 (or 53). So, those U-shaped brackets account for the difference of width of the motor mount holes. Those brackets were originally a Ford part, listed in the green bible, intended for use when putting a later engine in an early chassis. Look up part number 41A-6023, on page 223, in the green bible. Intended for installation of later engine in 33-34 chassis. (Note that I'm NOT saying that this is the way to do it. And, it's NOT the way I did it in my own cars. Just sayin...)

Couple brackets from my stash... tried to show the offset of the holes. Same as what Sheldon posted, above...

[cas3]

I have a set of those factory merc mounts, and they would not work for me to put a 59a motor in two 34 cars I have done. I made my own, similar to what deuce lover shows in post 15. Main thing I believe is you are trying to locate the crank shaft in the same location as the stock motor at the front. With the 59a motor, the loop for the hand crank guide will be in the way, and since I do not like to wreck rare parts I used the spring /U bolt plate from a model A. I also used the Whitney Alternator conversion with a 34 fan and genni. They are not cheap, dont make a lot of amps, but are built to take the extra load from a fan

[Charles Brock]

Originally Posted by '32FordNut

Thank you Jim, If I use the generator with the fan on it, I will need to change the crank pulley to just one instead of a double, correct. The crank, fan & water pumps will all run on just one belt, correct? Thank you for your help!!

I'm setup right now with 2 pulleys and the drop down. A friend of mine gave me the bad news and said that was wrong for the 33 truck. That's when it started, it was 50/50 with everyone's opinion, but the friend of mine who told me is an expert on 33/34's, however has never done a truck. He also told me that I'll probably never find the correct generator & fan since he hasn't seen one in years around here in CA at swap meets. Any suggestions to locate one? Thanks again, Jeff

I have the correct fan, if you need one. Thanks

[2ndgeer]

It appears as if you are no longer interested in pure stock so let me recommend what I did with the 59AB in my 1934 pickup. I ordered an alternator from Ed Whitney after sending him an original 1934 generator as a core. It works just as I hoped. Here is what it looks like.

[jimTN]

Bob is correct. Both `33 and 34 crossmember mount holes are closer to the center than 59 series mounts. Using the Merc adapters both offset the mounts and rais the engine so the crank is above the crossmember properly. I have a 59 series block in my 34 pu and every thing bolted in place with the Merc adapters and a sawed off double pulley.

[Bored&Stroked]

I had those U-shaped adapters when I installed a 59AB in my 34 (many years ago). Not only do they deal with the different hole locations, but they also deal with getting the engine at the correct height for the lower radiator hoses.

[cas3]

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And ...Speaking of hoses, I believe we use the lower hose for an 8ba application as they have a slight S shape which helps line things up I have a part # here if I can find it

[blucar]

I have had very little experience with engine modifications on a '33-34 Ford, I do recall that the '32's had a bracket, a leg like affair, that bolted to the front of the engine and the front cross-member. I also recall that the majority of the later blocks, '37-48 were drilled at the factory for the earlier mounts.
In years gone bye I installed several '37-48 Ford V8's into '36-40 vehicles, never had to use a motor mount adapter.
The off-set in the bolt holes of the Merc adapter's allows the 8BA style of engine with Merc/or truck pumps to work in a EFV8 chassis.

[tubman]

To be clear, the mounting "ears" are at different heights between the Mercury and Truck pumps. The spacer that would be correct for one may not be correct for another.

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by tubman

To be clear, the mounting "ears" are at different heights between the Mercury and Truck pumps. The spacer that would be correct for one may not be correct for another.

That really only applies to the later V8 engines - 49-53. On the 37-48 V8's engines (and the 59AB he references), the pumps had the "ears" in the same places for every model, every brand.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

That really only applies to the later V8 engines - 49-53. On the 37-48 V8's engines (and the 59AB he references), the pumps had the "ears" in the same places for every model, every brand.

I understand that, but somewhere in the equation later Merc pumps and their associated spacers got referenced. I just don't want anyone to think that '49-'51Merc pumps are directly interchangeable with the later truck pumps.

Maybe I'm overly sensitive to this, but I made this mistake once.

[cas3]

The merc and truck pumps I think are what the factory spacers are for, thats why they would not work on my 34/59a combo. They positioned the front of the motor about an inch higher than should be, so I made my own. The ones I have were in a 47ish truck with a merc motor installed

['32FordNut]

I have 2 - 32's, my pickup has an 8BA in it and has NO towers on the motor mounts. My 3-W has a Merc (EAB) motor and has NO towers. I understand from a friend of a friend that has a collection of 33 & 34 cars and trucks his entire life (he's 88 and still going strong with cars), says I will absolutely need those towers if I put a 59AB in a '33 truck. The front of the motor will be down and the towers will bring the crank level. I have a set incase I need them. Once I get into it, I'll be able to see who's correct <LOL>!!

['32FordNut]

Originally Posted by 2ndgeer

It appears as if you are no longer interested in pure stock so let me recommend what I did with the 59AB in my 1934 pickup. I ordered an alternator from Ed Whitney after sending him an original 1934 generator as a core. It works just as I hoped. Here is what it looks like.

I really like your setup. It looks awesome!!!

[cas3]

Continue on with the experiment, but I think you will find your old friend is correct.
first you will install the motor and trans as a unit, and bolt down the trans rear mount so the front to back is located, then when the front is lowered down you will find the bolt for the crank pulley is sitting on top the hand crank loop. 59a motors have a longer crankshaft than the early motors. As I mentioned before, that loop needs to be cut off, or replaced with a flat model A unit. That bolt center needs to be where the original bolt was even though you are not going to have the rachet nut for the hand crank. The reason this is critical, and not mentioned yet in this thread, is the clearance for the breather tube at the back of the motor. I have no experience with truck firewalls, but I assume the clearance issue would be the same. The early motors had a tall breather tube so the cap is above the ledge on the fire wall. the short fuel pump stand and tube of the 59a will not allow room to put the cap on . On the two I have done, even the tall early tube was not tall enough so I made a taller tube to clear the firewall. To recap, the crank bolt must be lined up to the original position in the crank guide loop.

[cas3]

For fun...I once bought a 34 frame that had a dead later motor in it. They stacked two ford motor mounts for the height, and used a smaller bolt so it would go at an angle to overcome the width difference. Well...I guess it worked

[cas3]

Here's my 59a in a 34 car. An old photo, hard to see but the breather tube is very close to the firewall, and taller than a stock 33-34 unit. also, my home made poor mans iron worker to make the U shaped mounts. Its mostly used to make loopy things to hang bird feeders for the wife, but I do make car parts too. ----well shoot, I thought I had a photo on file of my silly Iron worker, but no. I'll post one tomorrow

['32FordNut]

Originally Posted by cas3

Here's my 59a in a 34 car. An old photo, hard to see but the breather tube is very close to the firewall, and taller than a stock 33-34 unit. also, my home made poor mans iron worker to make the U shaped mounts. Its mostly used to make loopy things to hang bird feeders for the wife, but I do make car parts too. ----well shoot, I thought I had a photo on file of my silly Iron worker, but no. I'll post one tomorrow

Nice job, looks clean. I hope I can put my breather on without any issues. I never thought of that yet. Just one more issue, maybe!!

[bmwillia]

This thread is great!

I Just got a fresh built 59ab for my 33 coupe.

Any measurements on where to cut the double crank pulley, or is it ok to cut at the base of the cone for the front pulley?

I also need to fabricate some spacers. What should the overall height of the spacer be?

[Mart]

Originally Posted by bmwillia

This thread is great!

I Just got a fresh built 59ab for my 33 coupe.

Any measurements on where to cut the double crank pulley, or is it ok to cut at the base of the cone for the front pulley?

I also need to fabricate some spacers. What should the overall height of the spacer be?

If you look down the bore of the pulley, there is a step where the bolt and washer bear against. You should shorten the main body until it is flush with that shoulder. That way the bolt works exactly as it did before.

I made spacers for my 33. I used some square tubing plus an extra packer. I can't remember the exact height I achieved but it is about 1-3/4". The holes need to be offset outboard 1/2" each side. This is from memory please check dimensions o0n your vehicle.

Mart.

[bmwillia]

I’m not real clear on what you are describing. Is the “step” you are referring to the scratched part around the bore in this picture?




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[Mart]

Ok that's not like the one I was thinking of.
Remove the pulley and bring it all back to the surface you can see there where it is marred up by the old washer. If it were me I would take it back a few thou more to a nice new clean surface. A lathe is ideal for this sort of work.
Thinking about it I was getting mixed up with the 40 type pulley where the fan bolts on.
Mart.

[cas3]

That type pulley I believe you will see spot welds that hold the outer pulley on. Lathe or grinder cut it down to the point it is loose, then gone. As for the hight at the front, try to put the crank end in the same place it was originally, so the hand crank would line up as it did even though you will not use that ratchet bolt. The crank will be longer so the bolt will hit the crank guide loop. cut that off, or use a cheaper more available model A U bolt/spring retainer

[bmwillia]

Thank you both!