Champion 3X Spark plug drawings and pictures

[Joop]

If you check the JS there are only 2 plugs mentioned, but found this interesting drawing in the March-April, 1986 MARC Newsletter written by Ed Eaton.

[FL&WVMIKE]

JOOP .......................
This is amazing !
I bet this will surely raise some eyebrows in the Model "A" world. I'm very curious as to what developes.
You just might be a trouble maker ! LOL
MIKE

[Marco Tahtaras]

Ed Eaton got his information from Champion and suspect the Champion rep misinterpreted the records. Somebody certainly did! Champion sold several plugs for the Model A but they did not provide them to Ford. It's baffling that the information came out of Champion so twisted. They didn't even show a Model A spark plug after November 1930 yet Ford continued to sell them for quite some time!!!

[FL&WVMIKE]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

Ed Eaton got his information from Champion and suspect the Champion rep misinterpreted the records. Somebody certainly did! Champion sold several plugs for the Model A but they did not provide them to Ford. It's baffling that the information came out of Champion so twisted. They didn't even show a Model A spark plug after November 1930 yet Ford continued to sell them for quite some time!!!

Marco Tahtaras .......................
You would not think that a Champion Spark Plug Co. employee would make up this information. He must have analyzed invoices to Ford Motor Company, during those years. I am guessing that Ed Eaton did more research than the writers of the JSs. Perhaps Ford Motor Company purchased these odd plugs as replacement plugs for their dealers. ????? Nobody, alive, knows for sure !
I believe that I have used examples of most of these plugs.
MIKE

[Dick So. Cal.]

I am running a set of Champion plugs with the 'Ford' on them in my Cabriolet. They came with my car when I got it 10 years ago. Run great. Very stock engine.

Dick

[RockHillWill]

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It would be inappropriate to under estimate the amount of time that the JSC members from both MARC and MAFCA spend accumulating and reviewing pertinent information regarding the Restoration Guidelines that are used for fine point judging.

All the work, effort, travel time to the archives and most JSC meetings are at the expense of the individual members. They are repeatedly given a hard time about their efforts without full knowledge of how much of their own time, effort and expense that they put forth for the benefit of the club members.

Regarding the Champion spark plug information, I have seen some of that information from the archives and from what I have been able to discern, it is as Marco says it is!

[mot]

rockhillwill
you stated it very well
Marco has put in THOUSANDS of hours in his personal time and thousands of dollars of his personal money'
I agree totally with him
we have the blueprints of the ford plugs
and Im sure he has everything else to back up what he says
thanks Marco for your efforts, I appreciate it
tom

[FL&WVMIKE]

Originally Posted by Dick So. Cal.

I am running a set of Champion plugs with the 'Ford' on them in my Cabriolet. They came with my car when I got it 10 years ago. Run great. Very stock engine.

Dick

Dick So. Cal ........................
Tomorrow, I plan to post photos of the examples of "A" Model plugs, that I have, and I hope that some Fordbarners know just what they are. I have some of the "FORD" plugs too.
I'm sure that the "3X" plugs are correct, but I'm thinking that some others might be correct also. I don't know. I'm just raising some questions, based on the drawing from Champion Spark Plug Company.
MIKE

[Jim Mason]

Eaton, Ed. “The Model ‘A’ Spark Plug.” Model “A” News. March-April, 1986.PP 12-17.
Fahnestock, Murray. “Spark Plugs: An Article Telling What the Parts Man and Services Man Should Know About Them.” The Restorer. Jan/Feb 1999. PP 12-16. Originally published: Ford Dealer and Service Field. December, 1931.
Kalinka, Hans. “On the Road.” Model “A” News. September-October, 1986. PP 27-29.
Klein, Enrique. “Letters To the Editor.” Model “A” News. July-August, 1986. PP 4-6.
“New Accessories and Devices.” Motor Age. Dec. 8, 1927: P. 49.
Smith, Steve. “Restoration of Champion 3X Spark Plugs.” Model “A” News. January-February, 1996. PP 8-9.
Street, Richard. “Spark Plugs.” http://www.rstreet.us/sparkplugs.



http://rstreet.us/sparkplugs/3x/3X_S...iles/frame.htm

[RockHillWill]

Jim,

Nice to hear from you again. That is some great information. I will bookmark that page for my own use.

Thanks for posting it!

[FL&WVMIKE]

Originally Posted by RockHillWill

It would be inappropriate to under estimate the amount of time that the JSC members from both MARC and MAFCA spend accumulating and reviewing pertinent information regarding the Restoration Guidelines that are used for fine point judging.

All the work, effort, travel time to the archives and most JSC meetings are at the expense of the individual members. They are repeatedly given a hard time about their efforts without full knowledge of how much of their own time, effort and expense that they put forth for the benefit of the club members.

Regarding the Champion spark plug information, I have seen some of that information from the archives and from what I have been able to discern, it is as Marco says it is!

RockHillWill, mot ..........................
I sure hope that no one thinks that I am downplaying the work and effort that Marco Tahtaras and others have done in researching information for the Judging Standards.
I have worked in a large manufactoring plant, FMC Ordnance, I know of many instances, where substitutions were made, to keep from stopping assembly lines. I feel pretty sure that Ford Motor Company had to do the same in many situations. Other equal spark plugs might actually be correct for our "A" Model Fords.
Perhaps Champion Spark Plug Company would be able to shed more light on their previous document of 1986.
I am planning to post photos of some of these "odd" spark plugs, this afternoon. I'm hoping to get some feed-back from the fellows, who have studied the situation.
Thank you,
MIKE

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by FL&WVMIKE

Perhaps Champion Spark Plug Company would be able to shed more light on their previous document of 1986.

Now I understand at least some of the perceptions. The document shown was created by Ed Eaton, not Champion. Ed Eaton simply drew and formatted it to illustrate what he believed to be fact or best assumptions. As many folks do when researching Ford drawings, Ed Eaton drew conclusions based on incomplete data (missing drawings). Other assumptions were made with no distinction between what Ford required and what could be marketed to outside vendors to broaden their retail base.

[RockHillWill]

changed my mind

[RockHillWill]

No problems, Mike.

I think your perspective is correct, and I am looking forward to your input and I promise not to impune it from afar.

[FL&WVMIKE]

RockHillWill ........................
I did have some misgivings about that drawing. If you notice, the drawings of the 3Xs, have the flat top "3", which we all know is the reproduction.
MIKE

[Fred]

That whole chart (DRAWING) shown along with the dates is wrong, along with many other reasons...

[FL&WVMIKE]

Originally Posted by Fred

That whole chart (DRAWING) shown along with the dates is wrong, along with many other reasons...

Fred ....................
Can you be more specific ? We need a discussion here.
MIKE

[FL&WVMIKE]

Ford "A" Modelers .....................
Are these "A" Model Spark Plugs ? I don't know !
What do you think they are ?

Picture 1..... "0", "1" & "C-1". Note spacing between hex and knurling.
Picture 2..... "2" & "2-A".
Picture 3..... "3", "3X" (late) & "3X" (early).
Picture 4..... "C-4", "C-4-A" & "C-4-S".
Picture 5..... "Tr. Spec.-A" (L/H view). Truck Special ?
Picture 6..... "Tr. Spec.-A" (R/H view). Truck Special ? (Same plug as Picture 5) (Note Double Electrodes).
Picture 7..... "FORD" Script, "FORD" Block Letters & "FORD-A" Block Letters.
Picture 8..... Front of Champion Shipping Crate (Used as end table).
Picture 9..... Side of Champion Shipping Crate. Used to ship No.6 plugs.
MIKE
CLICK ON PHOTOS TO ENLARGE - Twice

[Fred]

Real simple, The J/S does mention two types used, a # 3 in 1927 & then the 3X in 1928 thru 1931.. The chart in ?? shows top row L to R, 2nd plug, A 1927 3, 3rd plug, A 3X 1928 early 1930, & 6th plug, A 3X early 1930 thru 1931.. All had some different changes that are shown in size & markings.. (BUT ALL WITH THE ROUND 3) The # 3 was completly different on the inside & you can not put a 1928/29 core in it. I know, as I have all styles of them NOS...NONE of any of the others shown in the chart were installed @ the factory...

[Dick So. Cal.]

Great collection of Champion plugs. Maybe some new info will come of them.

Dick

[FL&WVMIKE]

Originally Posted by Dick So. Cal.

Great collection of Champion plugs. Maybe some new info will come of them.

Dick

Dick So. Cal. .........................
I surely hope so !
I didn't, actually, collect all these spark plugs. I, kind of, stumbled into them. Years ago, I was "picking" an old building that had been part of a junk yard, that had closed a little after WWII. I "rescued" about half a bushel of three piece, brass top spark plugs. Most of them were V8 Flathead plugs. Back during the Depression, a lot of people had to go to junk yards, to buy their spark plugs. I had separated them by number, but had not cleaned them. I spent a couple hours cleaning these, one day, and a bit of time organizing and photographing them for this thread, the next day.
I'm sure hoping for more information !
The old shipping case, I bought at a farm auction, in West Virginia years ago, for a little of nothing.
Thanks,
MIKE

[FL&WVMIKE]

Does anyone have a chart, or know of someone, who might have a Champion Spark Plug Company Chart that would list these plugs ?
MIKE

[FL&WVMIKE]

I am concluding that NOBODY can offer any information on these odd "A" Model plugs.
Is that right ?
MIKE

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by FL&WVMIKE

I am concluding that NOBODY can offer any information on these odd "A" Model plugs.
Is that right ?
MIKE

A Champion catalog from the era would should provide the usage possibilities. Unfortunately that has not been on my priority list so I still don't have one.

[RonC]

Originally Posted by FL&WVMIKE

I am concluding that NOBODY can offer any information on these odd "A" Model plugs.
Is that right ?
MIKE

Mike ,

Champion made and makes plugs for probably every manufacturer's equipment applications. Some of the supply references from Champion to Ford with plugs other than the X, 3 and 3X plugs used on the T's and A's could have been for Ford's experimental use and also for other Ford engines such as tractors and airplane engines etc.

Try the spark plug collectors of america. I'm sure someone there has information on early champion plugs and applications. www.spcoa.net

[Fred]

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[QUOTE=FL&WVMIKE;308284]I am concluding that NOBODY can offer any information on these odd "A" Model plugs.
Is that right ?
MIKE
As stated, In your pictures, You only have three Plugs that were used by FORD in the Model "A".. Just because the others may fit the hole, that does NOT make them Original to the MODEL A AA.. Many other Co. also made plugs that could be used also, just like today...

[Mike V. Florida]

There seems to me be be a couple different things here.

1) Plugs that were installed at Ford when the cars were built.
2) Plugs that would fit the Model A during the time the cars were built.
3) Plugs that were\are available that fit the Model A.

[FL&WVMIKE]

[QUOTE=Fred;308400]

Originally Posted by FL&WVMIKE

I am concluding that NOBODY can offer any information on these odd "A" Model plugs.
Is that right ?
MIKE
As stated, In your pictures, You only have three Plugs that were used by FORD in the Model "A".. Just because the others may fit the hole, that does NOT make them Original to the MODEL A AA.. Many other Co. also made plugs that could be used also, just like today...

FRED ...................
What do you have that explaines the "FORD" and "FORD-A" spark plugs in the "A" Model size ?
MIKE

[RonC]

The "Ford A" plug means it fits the Model A Ford. Probably a 3X plug sold in stores during or after the Model A production years. The fact of it's existance does not prove it was used by Ford during production. I would think the fact that it states "Ford A" would versus 3X would make me believe it was intended for sale to the general public.

[FL&WVMIKE]

Originally Posted by RonC

The "Ford A" plug means it fits the Model A Ford. Probably a 3X plug sold in stores during or after the Model A production years. The fact of it's existance does not prove it was used by Ford during production. I would think the fact that it states "Ford A" would versus 3X would make me believe it was intended for sale to the general public.

RonC .............................
I have a feeling that you are right about this. The plugs marked, "FORD" or "FORD A", would make it easy for the every day guy, to know that he had the correct spark plug for his Model "A" Ford.
Surely, there must be some advertising on these, out there somewhere.
Thanks,
MIKE

[Fred]

[QUOTE=FL&WVMIKE;308534][QUOTE=Fred;308400]

FRED ...................
What do you have that explaines the "FORD" and "FORD-A" spark plugs in the "A" Model size ?
MIKE The ones you show in the pictures are "NOT" in the Model "A" size, or even close.. Those cores will "NOT" even fit in the correct Model "A" 3X base assy..

[Fred]

Originally Posted by FL&WVMIKE

RonC .............................
I have a feeling that you are right about this. The plugs marked, "FORD" or "FORD A", would make it easy for the every day guy, to know that he had the correct spark plug for his Model "A" Ford.
Surely, there must be some advertising on these, out there somewhere.
Thanks,
MIKE

If the every day guy put the plugs you show in his Model "A" he would "NOT" have the correct plug in it.. As stated, Just because they FIT does not make it the right ones..

[FL&WVMIKE]

Originally Posted by Fred

If the every day guy put the plugs you show in his Model "A" he would "NOT" have the correct plug in it.. As stated, Just because they FIT does not make it the right ones..

FRED ................
What RonC and I were refering to, is during the days of every day driving of the "A" Model Ford. The guy, needing new plugs for his "A", would not care if they were "correct" of not.
MIKE

[Fred]

[QUOTE=FL&WVMIKE;308576]FRED ................
What RonC and I were refering to, is during the days of every day driving of the "A" Model Ford. The guy, needing new plugs for his "A", would not care if they were "correct" of not.
MIKE [ RIGHT, ????????

[Ian in Mississauga]

I'm fascinated by this thread, especially after Mike's pictures. I have been searching high and low for a booklet I knew I had from Champion. Alas, it doesn't list all their plugs, it only lists all cars and taxis made in the USA from 1920 to 1950 and the appropriate Champion plug in the day plus the modern [1974] equivalent.e.g. C = W14, C-1 = W18 etc. It appears that no other car maker used 3X except Ford but there are dozens of applications for C-4.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Ian in Mississauga

I'm fascinated by this thread, especially after Mike's pictures. I have been searching high and low for a booklet I knew I had from Champion. Alas, it doesn't list all their plugs, it only lists all cars and taxis made in the USA from 1920 to 1950 and the appropriate Champion plug in the day plus the modern [1974] equivalent.e.g. C = W14, C-1 = W18 etc. It appears that no other car maker used 3X except Ford but there are dozens of applications for C-4.

That is just what I & others have been saying all along, But he thinks just because they FIT, they are correct !!! "NOT"

[FL&WVMIKE]

Originally Posted by Fred

That is just what I & others have been saying all along, But he thinks just because they FIT, they are correct !!! "NOT"

FRED ...................
I don't know where you get any of your information. Especially, where, you stated that I think they are correct, just because they fit. ???????
Please state your sorce of information in any future posts.
Thank you,
MIKE

[mot]

champion 3s were used before the model A They added the X for the model As
champion made spark plugs for all cars
for example the 3s were used in Cunninghams,Stewarts,clevelands,Dodges,Marmons,Mit chells,Rollins,Oaklands,
Stars,Ajax,etc
they do not list the ones with ford script in this chart
tom

[Marco Tahtaras]

I'm surprised this thread is still active!

Ok, I'll add a little more. If you study the plugs you will find the Champion 3 and 3X you will find the only difference is the markings on the porcelain. I don't know but suspect the 3X was a Ford exclusive. It was certainly marketed strictly for the Ford car (four cylinder) at least into 1932. The Champion 3 was marketed for all other cars and trucks that required the same plug. Both Ford and Champion had a lot at stake in maintaining market share of service parts for more than 4.5 Million Model A's put on the road. The 3X plug was a marketing distinction. There was no other purpose in creating a special marking for the already existing Champion 3.

For some reason folks seem to think just because a plug will screw into a Model A head it must be for a Model A! There were thousands of different makes and models of cars and trucks built in the 20's and early 30's that required spark plugs.

Anyone out there that has era catalogs (1929-32) with usage listings of Champion plugs should be able to add to, or correct what I've said here.

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by FL&WVMIKE

FRED ...................
I don't know where you get any of your information. Especially, where, you stated that I think they are correct, just because they fit. ???????
Please state your sorce of information in any future posts.
Thank you,
MIKE

Mike,

If I am not mistaken, I do not believe Fred said such a thing (Did you Fred?)...I think Fred is refering to someone else (Were you not Fred)?????

Pluck

[FL&WVMIKE]

Originally Posted by mot

champion 3s were used before the model A They added the X for the model As
champion made spark plugs for all cars
for example the 3s were used in Cunninghams,Stewarts,clevelands,Dodges,Marmons,Mit chells,Rollins,Oaklands,
Stars,Ajax,etc
they do not list the ones with ford script in this chart
tom

mot ..................
What a great chart ! You should reproduce that and market it !
Thank you,
MIKE

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

I'm surprised this thread is still active!

Ok, I'll add a little more. If you study the plugs you will find the Champion 3 and 3X you will find the only difference is the markings on the porcelain. I don't know but suspect the 3X was a Ford exclusive. It was certainly marketed strictly for the Ford car (four cylinder) at least into 1932. The Champion 3 was marketed for all other cars and trucks that required the same plug. Both Ford and Champion had a lot at stake in maintaining market share of service parts for more than 4.5 Million Model A's put on the road. The 3X plug was a marketing distinction. There was no other purpose in creating a special marking for the already existing Champion 3.

For some reason folks seem to think just because a plug will screw into a Model A head it must be for a Model A! There were thousands of different makes and models of cars and trucks built in the 20's and early 30's that required spark plugs.

Anyone out there that has era catalogs (1929-32) with usage listings of Champion plugs should be able to add to, or correct what I've said here.

Marco; I talked with Roger K. down in FLA. in the spring & showed him what I am going to say here.. You say the only difference in the #3 & the 3X is in the porcelian markings.. I agree on that for the core piece.. But the base section on the outside looks the same as the normal 1928/29/30 but on the inside it is different.. The shape of the #3 core is the same as the 30/31 core.. You can not take a 28/29/30 core and put it in the early #3 base.. The early #3 base is machined deeper to except the later style 30/31 core which the early #3 core is.. I have some NOS of each if you would like to see them.. Roger said, I guess we missed that one .. Fred..

[jw hash]

the champion # 3 plug was used in the 1927 lincoln but for the lincoln the brass cap was nickle plated. I thank that ford was already using the #3 plug when the model A was first produced an that may be why they used them at first. but here is the big difference between the plugs, the #3 plug uses the same porcelain as the 30-31 3X if you take one apart you will see a step inside like 30-31 But if you try to put a 30-31 core in a #3 base the lettering will be under the upper nut, if you need some pictures I would be more then happy to send you some. I do have a #3 plug that still is nickle plated, John Hash

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Fred

Marco; I talked with Roger K. down in FLA. in the spring & showed him what I am going to say here.. You say the only difference in the #3 & the 3X is in the porcelian markings.. I agree on that for the core piece.. But the base section on the outside looks the same as the normal 1928/29/30 but on the inside it is different.. The shape of the #3 core is the same as the 30/31 core.. You can not take a 28/29/30 core and put it in the early #3 base.. The early #3 base is machined deeper to except the later style 30/31 core which the early #3 core is.. I have some NOS of each if you would like to see them.. Roger said, I guess we missed that one .. Fred..

What you are describing is the transitional plug with the tall hex, deep pocket, and NEW type core. I have a 3X like that. One of the things Ed Eaton was kind enough to include in his article was an original late '28 drawing of the no. 3 showing it to be just like our common tall hex 3X including the core. From what I've seen over the last 30 years I'm confident the no.3 and 3X followed the same engineering changes at the same time.

[mot]

here are some pictures of three cores
two are 3X and the middle one is a 3
notice on the left 3X core there is a number 566 on the back side
the three other plugs are all Ford plugs
they look exactly like a 3X but only have ford on them,no number
and the last picture showing a vintage catalog and the only car that takes the 3X is the model A
tom

[mot]

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john
is your lincoln plug like this?
tom

[mot]

heres another 3X plug
it dosnt have an electrode
used only in the ashtray
tom

[Marco Tahtaras]

Note the early style core. The only thing different between these two drawings is the APPROXIMATE assembled height (1/16") and the dates. I'll bet the description would match on a mid '28 3X drawing even though it's of limited significance.

[mot]

in case anyone wants to see the difference between a Ford script plug and a 3x
plug
here are two NOS cores
tom

[jw hash]

Mot
first I like your ash tray, I have looked for one of them for years, on the nickle plated plug if yours has a 3 on the back it looks to be for a Lincoln, Marco & Mot I have never seen a long #3 core like the like the drawing shows all of the #3 cores I have seen are short like the later 3X. even the #3 later replacement cores are the short ones I not saying they are not out there just that I have never seen one, I to have a lot of NOS #3`s and 3X plugs & cores I`m just not that good yet on putting pictures on here,

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by jw hash

Mot
first I like your ash tray, I have looked for one of them for years, on the nickle plated plug if yours has a 3 on the back it looks to be for a Lincoln, Marco & Mot I have never seen a long #3 core like the like the drawing shows all of the #3 cores I have seen are short like the later 3X. even the #3 later replacement cores are the short ones I not saying they are not out there just that I have never seen one, I to have a lot of NOS #3`s and 3X plugs & cores I`m just not that good yet on putting pictures on here,

I'm not surprised the early type is not common. Think about our 3X plugs. There were more than 8 million tall hex plugs installed in new cars and millions more sold through service before the design change. They are not common at all today compared to the later type. To find any of the early type No. 3 plugs you would likely have to scrounge for old crusty, corroded plugs like the condition we would typically skip over.

Tom sent me the following two pages from a Western Auto catalog. The first page illustrates the cleaver marketing of the 3X plugs to maximize market share as I described earlier. The second shows some of "the competition" which show their Model A plug to be the Champion No. 3. equivalent based on usage.

[d.j. moordigian]

This has been a great thread.

Some of you may not realize the little plugs in Tom's butt tray are real, working
plugs. The were used in model airplane engines and such.

Dudley

[FL&WVMIKE]

mot ........................

Sure glad that you decided to put in your "2 cents" worth. You have some nice pieces !

PHOTO 1..... I have one of those ashtrays, but mine is later. It is from the mid 30s and has a V8 Flathead Ford plug in it (C-7).
As I understand it, these ashtrays were made by the SILLIMANITE COMPANY, the company that made the porcelain for Champion. I am guessing that they were distributed to retailers by the Champion salespeople.

PHOTO 2..... An example of the replacement spark plugs, sold at the Ford Garages, in the mid-late 30s and later.

PHOTO 3..... Nothing to do with Ford, but an air cooled spark plug, manufactured by Champion for Harley-Davidson, just something unusual.

Thank you,
MIKE
CLICK ON PHOTOS TO ENLARGE - Twice

[FL&WVMIKE]

Originally Posted by jw hash

Mot
first I like your ash tray, I have looked for one of them for years, on the nickle plated plug if yours has a 3 on the back it looks to be for a Lincoln, Marco & Mot I have never seen a long #3 core like the like the drawing shows all of the #3 cores I have seen are short like the later 3X. even the #3 later replacement cores are the short ones I not saying they are not out there just that I have never seen one, I to have a lot of NOS #3`s and 3X plugs & cores I`m just not that good yet on putting pictures on here,

jw hash .....................
I believe the longer FORD script core is for the "T" Model Ford. I have included a photo of a complete "T" plug along side of the "A" style.
MIKE

CLICK ON PHOTO TO ENLARGE - Twice

[Fred]

Originally Posted by FL&WVMIKE

jw hash .....................
I believe the longer FORD script core is for the "T" Model Ford. I have included a photo of a complete "T" plug along side of the "A" style.
MIKE

CLICK ON PHOTO TO ENLARGE - Twice

Once Again, That is NOT an "A" style plug, or even close to it...

[FL&WVMIKE]

Originally Posted by Fred

Once Again, That is NOT an "A" style plug, or even close to it...

FRED ...................
You keep making absolute statements, with no documentation. Please use your expertise and tell us what that Ford script plug is for.
It has the Ford script and it fits the "A" & "B" heads. It looks to be close to the "A" style to me.
MIKE

[Fred]

Originally Posted by FL&WVMIKE

FRED ...................
You keep making absolute statements, with no documentation. Please use your expertise and tell us what that Ford script plug is for.
It has the Ford script and it fits the "A" & "B" heads. It looks to be close to the "A" style to me.
MIKE

I dont know what its for, in the middle 30s I would guess.. And there you go AGAIN, "IT FITS" & so do 100 other brand plugs.. Looks close ?? you must have bad eyes look again.. P.S. Have you read ANY of the above posts & some with pictures ??..

[Fred]

Originally Posted by FL&WVMIKE

FRED ...................
I don't know where you get any of your information. Especially, where, you stated that I think they are correct, just because they fit. ???????
Please state your sorce of information in any future posts.
Thank you,
MIKE

Your Quote "THEY FIT" See your last post !! ??..

[d.j. moordigian]

Now,.....With out starting a war. Mike, I'm with Fred on your last photo post, it's
not an A plug(plug on the left). Compare your plug to Marco's engineering print.

[FL&WVMIKE]

Fred, d. j. .......................
I am not saying that it is an "A" plug. Read again.... "It has the Ford script and fits the "A" & "B" heads".
What in the world is it ???????
MIKE

[Fred]

Originally Posted by FL&WVMIKE

Fred, d. j. .......................
I am not saying that it is an "A" plug. Read again.... "It has the Ford script and fits the "A" & "B" heads".
What in the world is it ???????
MIKE

"A" Ford plug that fits a CHEVY !!...

[dean from bozeman]

This has been one of the best threads ever on Fordbarn. It's been informative, with great photos, blueprints and amazing comparisons. There also have been numerous contributors who have a great deal of knowledge.

It shows how the Internet can be used as a vehicle to advance our knowledge in a matter of moments. This thread also demonstrates how nonpersonal and confusing it can make communication. The semantics of a Model A plug (that which Ford supplied at the factory) and a plug that fits a Model A (purchased to replace original plugs) creates an interesting side show.

I really wish there was a way to save the "best threads" because this one is certainly a keeper.

Dean

[jw hash]

Mike not to confuse the issue, but yes the long core that mot`s picture shows is for the ford the model T -X plug and I was not talking about that one when I said long core, champion was pretty smart a lot of the cores back then can go into other bases too fit in other engines that is why later on the replacement cores are only numbered on the box not on the porcelains

[mot]

fred posted on another thread that the early plugs didnt have Made in the USA on the back
here is a photo of one
can anyone supply more information on them?
as i see it there are ones with made in canada ,made in usa,nothing,
and numbers ,with made in usa
tom

[Jim Mason]

I believe the very early 3x plugs didn't have the 'made in USA'...fwiw,jm

[FL&WVMIKE]

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My accumulation of 3X and "FORD A" plugs awaiting restoration.
MIKE

[dean from bozeman]

When I started restoring A495 I was told that I needed Champion 3X with no "Made in U.S.A.". Because I want it restored to a fine point condition I purchased a real nice set just as described. Now it looks as if I will need to find an equally nice set of Champion 3 spark plugs, since A495 was sent to final assembly November 21, 1927.
That's another reason that restorations shouldn't take 7 plus years.

Question: Did the Champion 3 plugs also lack the "Made in U.S.A."?

[FL&WVMIKE]

dean from bozeman ...................
I believe that you can rub off the lettering on the Champion Spark Plugs. Don't ask how I know........ I found out, accidently, through over zelous cleaning. You could make your own early 3Xs out of standard 3Xs.
I might have more than one No.3. I'll check tomorrow.
MIKE

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by dean from bozeman

When I started restoring A495 I was told that I needed Champion 3X with no "Made in U.S.A.". Because I want it restored to a fine point condition I purchased a real nice set just as described. Now it looks as if I will need to find an equally nice set of Champion 3 spark plugs, since A495 was sent to final assembly November 21, 1927.
That's another reason that restorations shouldn't take 7 plus years.

Question: Did the Champion 3 plugs also lack the "Made in U.S.A."?

To be honest I don't believe any American supplied Champion plugs lacked the "made in USA" markings during that era but I can't prove it (without MANY additional hours) and one must choose his battles when there is a mind set (also not proven) to the contrary. I believe A1151 has the full markings but only Brad Minners has the original pics that could tell us for sure.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

To be honest I don't believe any American supplied Champion plugs lacked the "made in USA" markings during that era but I can't prove it (without MANY additional hours) and one must choose his battles when there is a mind set (also not proven) to the contrary. I believe A1151 has the full markings but only Brad Minners has the original pics that could tell us for sure.

Marco, Check the pictures I sent you, You will see one...

[jw hash]

here is some pictures of some of my goodies that I have been lucky enough to find over the years three different core with original boxes note the later one on the left with the batch number on it, some original 3X boxes note the flat top 3 on the original boxes and 1932 up boxes and the box you can get today, I looked for years for just one original 3X box and I anded up finding four NOS plugs in the Original boxes, also some of my plugs that I have restored, Rich Street and I put together a seminar for the northwest reginal group a few years back and again at the national in Vancouver BC last year, the web site is still up, check out,
http://rstreet.us/sparkplugs/3x/3xs...iles/frame.htm

[Fred]

Originally Posted by dean from bozeman

When I started restoring A495 I was told that I needed Champion 3X with no "Made in U.S.A.". Because I want it restored to a fine point condition I purchased a real nice set just as described. Now it looks as if I will need to find an equally nice set of Champion 3 spark plugs, since A495 was sent to final assembly November 21, 1927.
That's another reason that restorations shouldn't take 7 plus years.

Question: Did the Champion 3 plugs also lack the "Made in U.S.A."?

Dean good ?? I can answer part of it.. YES, on the NOS set I have of one style tey have the 3 and underneath it Made in U.S.A. That is on a 30/31 core type plug with the 28/29 type base assy.. I also have a NOS in the original box #3 ( #3 ONLY ON THE BOX ) 28/29 style core & base Assy that does NOT have Made in U.S.A. Send me your E-Mail address & I will send Pictures If you want them... Fred..

[Joop]

Hi Fred.

Would be nice if you could post them here for all to enjoy

[FL&WVMIKE]

Originally Posted by dean from bozeman

When I started restoring A495 I was told that I needed Champion 3X with no "Made in U.S.A.". Because I want it restored to a fine point condition I purchased a real nice set just as described. Now it looks as if I will need to find an equally nice set of Champion 3 spark plugs, since A495 was sent to final assembly November 21, 1927.
That's another reason that restorations shouldn't take 7 plus years.

Question: Did the Champion 3 plugs also lack the "Made in U.S.A."?

dean from bozeman ........................
I DO have more "3" Champion plugs. I have five total. If you decide to go that way, let me know. They are unrestored.
They ALL have the "Made in the USA" on them, as do all my plugs. I have none of the ones, without it.
The sun has washed out the red. They are much better, in person.
MIKE
CLICK ON PHOTO TO ENLARGE - Twice

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Fred

Dean good ?? I can answer part of it.. YES, on the NOS set I have of one style tey have the 3 and underneath it Made in U.S.A. That is on a 30/31 core type plug with the 28/29 type base assy.. I also have a NOS in the original box #3 ( #3 ONLY ON THE BOX ) 28/29 style core & base Assy that does NOT have Made in U.S.A. Send me your E-Mail address & I will send Pictures If you want them... Fred..

Fred, are you saying you have an early style No. 3 with no "Made In USA"? If so, is it in a box marked made in USA? One of the things I was looking at was the fact that Champion Canada initially had to import the cores from the U.S. (high tariffs). How would those cores be marked if destined for Canada? I haven't be able to determine when they began making their own if at all. I don't believe those cores marked "Canada" include the words "Made In".

Another point of interest that I can't answer would be the markings on late Model T production era (not replacement) Champion plugs. If Champion plugs produced in 1926-27 for the U.S. market DO NOT include the words "Made in USA" then I can buy into the idea that early 3X plugs were done similarly.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by jw hash

here is some pictures of some of my goodies that I have been lucky enough to find over the years three different core with original boxes note the later one on the left with the batch number on it,

John, Do any of the boxes have date codes on one of the inner flaps?

The pic above is interesting. I had a set of four NOS cores in their boxes. They were in your first box example but were the early type core pictured in the center. Of course that is an issue or when they were made. I was thinking the boxes had a date code for the printing of the box but can't find the couple box examples I thought I'd saved years ago.

[jw hash]

Marco
Yes they do The light blue is 35 the dark blue 29 the red one is missing one flap and it might of had the number on, my camera doesn`t take very good close ups the red box has for ford model A and AA on it, it could be that they made the replacement cores for the early ones as service items up in the later years, I did have one set of four early ones in the dark blue boxes that were dated 29 that I sold too Tony Stokes about 8 years ago and I will bet he still has them. and I`m not sure on when they started puting batch numbers on the core

[Jim Parker Toronto]

Here's a set of 3X Canadian plugs. I never noticed till now, but the 3rd plug from the left has a different base than the others.That's odd........... Anyway, the imprint on the 3X side says "REG in CANADA" and the reverse says "MADE IN CANADA" No, I don't have the boxes still, but I remember buying them in '92 and paid a good price! Enjoy...

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Jim Parker Toronto

Here's a set of 3X Canadian plugs. I never noticed till now, but the 3rd plug from the left has a different base than the others.That's odd........... Anyway, the imprint on the 3X side says "REG in CANADA" and the reverse says "MADE IN CANADA" No, I don't have the boxes still, but I remember buying them in '92 and paid a good price! Enjoy...

Jim, Nice plugs & RARE.. The 3rd plug is a after market 1930/31 style plug, The others are 1928/29 E 30.. Does it have a flat top # 3 or like the others ??.. Either way you can not take that core & put it into another large base as it won`t fit..

[Jim Parker Toronto]

Originally Posted by Fred

Jim, Nice plugs & RARE.. The 3rd plug is a after market 1930/31 style plug, The others are 1928/29 E 30.. Does it have a flat top # 3 or like the others ??.. Either way you can not take that core & put it into another large base as it won`t fit..

The third plug has a round 3 just like the others. Are you sure it won't fit, without a lot of measuring, it looks awful close.... Just how rare are these??
Jim

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Jim Parker Toronto

The third plug has a round 3 just like the others. Are you sure it won't fit, without a lot of measuring, it looks awful close.... Just how rare are these??
Jim

Jim, Ok the plug in ? has the later 30/31 shaped correct 3 X CORE only.. The base section has the later Mid 30s style knurling & it also does not go all the way to the bottom... IMO, Champion must have had many inner cores left over with the correct 3 & just used them up in the later style base.. I have quite a few U.S.A. made ones like that.. Last, No you can not take that 30/31 style core out & put it in the other type bases you show, it will not fit... It will if you can find the EARLY type Champion # 3 base... That is another story..

[Jim Parker Toronto]

Fred, I guess these are different as well.......

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Jim Parker Toronto

Fred, I guess these are different as well.......

They have the CORRECT cores for a U.S.A. 30/31, BUT the wrong style base as I explained before..

[Fred]

Hope this works ??

[Fred]

Another try @ this picture stuff... L to R.. NOS plug in Original box marked 1/29.. NOS plug with the correct 30/31 original 3 X core in later base, Small box.. Same as last one but bigger box.. Notice different gaskets.. And the # 3 NOT marked on the plug..

[Jim Parker Toronto]

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Fred, once again you are correct. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Jim

[d.j. moordigian]

Fred, Marco and Tom, in alphabetical order,

I'm a little confused, is the core(porcelain) different in 28/29 vs 30/31? This is
for a " 3X " correct round top 3 plug. Yes, I know the shell's are different between
28/29 and 30/31. Is there some order of progression that I'm missing?

I just want the facts,............Thanks, Joe Friday

[Fred]

D.J. Yes on first Question.. You can not put a 1928/29 core in a 1930/31 base & vise virsa.. But it is a different story on the very early 1927 #3 plug & base..

[d.j. moordigian]

Fred,
Could you/would you post a photo of them side by side,so I can see the difference.
Thanks, Dudley

BTW, thanks for posting the early EA horn wire connector.

[Fred]

Hey, Thats easy, Go one post up from your question to Jim Parkers pictures & it answers your ??..Fred..

[30ccpickup]

This is the method I am using to take apart an early 3X plug. My question is can I apply heat as long as I do not heat it up to red or do I risk cracking the core?

[Barney]

As a Spark-Plug is a work of art. I love the 3x Spark-plug and never had problems with it. Lasts forever.
Greetings Barney

[[email protected]]

Originally Posted by Barney

As a Spark-Plug is a work of art. I love the 3x Spark-plug and never had problems with it. Lasts forever.
Greetings Barney

Here is a cut open pix of the 1928 Champion C-3 with extra points at the bottom for comparison to the 3X's. Sometimes less is more.....

[davidclement]

Hello, I am trying to read your nice original chart for the Lincoln automobile. Does it list the Champion # 2 or a Champion # 3 plug for the Lincoln Car? Is this chart dated? Because the Champion X plug is prominently featured, I am guessing that this is during the Model T era 1909-1927, probably late. Circa maybe 1925 or 26? Do you have a reference for Champion plugs for 1928, 1929 or 1930 Lincoln cars? Please advise Best Regards, David Clement, 916 241 5079, or [email protected] Sacramento area.

[RonC]

David did you check the service bulletins?