Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Early V8 (1932-53)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-21-2014, 07:06 PM   #1
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

This noise started in the engine spontaneously a couple of weeks ago, barely perceptible. At first it seemed like it was just premature detonation so I tried the usual fixes: Pulled the choke out a bit. It seemed to help a little at first but as time went on I had to choke it almost to death - just barely able to run - to benefit at all. Put larger jets in the carb. Again, at first seemed to help but not any more. Cranked the vacuum brake on the distributor down as far as it would go. Again, only short lived benefit. Same with putting the highest octane gas available in. No help.

It has always had the characteristic of premature detonation - only exists at full vacuum under power over 40 mph, not when accelerating nor decelerating. Now it's heard at fast idle without any load after getting up to stable RPM as heard in the video.

I'm afraid that it is sounding more and more like the sound I had last year for a short time just before a piston came apart and I had to have the engine rebuilt (21,000 miles ago).

What do you think?

Here's the noise: http://youtu.be/1BXBh417e_w
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness

Last edited by Old Henry; 09-02-2014 at 12:18 PM.
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2014, 07:33 PM   #2
dean333
Senior Member
 
dean333's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Shorewood Illinois
Posts: 357
Send a message via Yahoo to dean333
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Sounds like a rod knock to me, sorry
dean333 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 08-21-2014, 07:34 PM   #3
mfagan
Senior Member
 
mfagan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Kaufman, TX
Posts: 765
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

How's the oil pressure?
mfagan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2014, 07:35 PM   #4
Jack E/NJ
Senior Member
 
Jack E/NJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,542
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Dunno? I'd pull all the plugs first and see if they can tell you anything. If they all look the same, then pull the heads and take a look at and massage the pistons for bearing or wristpin issues.

Jack E/NJ
Jack E/NJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2014, 07:35 PM   #5
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfagan View Post
How's the oil pressure?
Oil pressure has always been good. New oil pump with engine rebuild last year.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness

Last edited by Old Henry; 08-21-2014 at 08:14 PM.
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2014, 07:37 PM   #6
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ View Post
Dunno? I'd pull all the plugs first and see if they can tell you anything. If they all look the same, then pull the heads and take a look at and massage the pistons for bearing or wristpin issues.

Jack E/NJ
If I identify a bearing or wrist pin issue can it be fixed without removing the engine?
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2014, 07:45 PM   #7
ford3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: oroville calif.
Posts: 1,453
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

almost every thing can be fixed with the engine in the car, except a flattened throw on the crank, sounds like a rod knock to me
ford3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2014, 07:55 PM   #8
DJ513
Junior Member
 
DJ513's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spokane, Wa
Posts: 21
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I had a very similar noise an it turned out to be a broken piston. I didn't know it was broke till I pulled the piston completely out. Hope you have better luck than I did.

Dan
DJ513 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2014, 08:00 PM   #9
Lawrie
Senior Member
 
Lawrie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Qld, Australia
Posts: 3,079
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Henry,I feel for you,you and me both do a lot of miles in our old fords,ours is resting at home as the engine couldn't,t be fixed in time for our big trip around Australia,so we are away in our fairlane.
Back to your noise,I too think it's a rod bearing. But to cheer you up,here is a pic we took the other day on our holiday ,a croc eating a kangaroo,I was going to go in for a dip till I saw this.
Lawrie
Attached Images
File Type: jpg image.jpg (83.1 KB, 332 views)
Lawrie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2014, 08:04 PM   #10
oldford2
Senior Member
 
oldford2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: pittsfield, MA/ Dunedin, FL
Posts: 1,898
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Professor,
Pull one plug at a time and see if the knock stops or diminishes at any cylinder. If it is a rod this test would take all the pressure off the offending cylinder. Just a thought
John
oldford2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2014, 08:05 PM   #11
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrie View Post
Henry,I feel for you,you and me both do a lot of miles in our old fords,ours is resting at home as the engine couldn't,t be fixed in time for our big trip around Australia,so we are away in our fairlane.
Back to your noise,I too think it's a rod bearing. But to cheer you up,here is a pic we took the other day on our holiday ,a croc eating a kangaroo,I was going to go in for a dip till I saw this.
Lawrie
I was looking forward to the travelogue of your trip. Sorry you couldn't take it. Fortunately, this engine problem has just come after I have taken every road trip on my bucket list - 20 total over the last 3 years. I was just thinking I'll now have to start repeating them. Then this happened. It may be that I just take a rest from "Old Henry" for a while.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness

Last edited by Old Henry; 08-21-2014 at 08:15 PM.
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2014, 08:07 PM   #12
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ford3 View Post
almost every thing can be fixed with the engine in the car, except a flattened throw on the crank, sounds like a rod knock to me
I was hoping that. It seems like if it's just a piston breaking or a rod or something like that I could take the head and the oil pan off and replace those parts without removing the engine. That's what Old Chuckles up the street has always done. I expect he'll give me a hand if I decide to do that.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2014, 08:07 PM   #13
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldford2 View Post
Professor,
Pull one plug at a time and see if the knock stops or diminishes at any cylinder. If it is a rod this test would take all the pressure off the offending cylinder. Just a thought
John
Good idea. I'll go out and do that right now and report.

I tried to identify the piston with the problem with a stethoscope but can't hear anything through the heads. It is definitely on the drivers side though.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2014, 08:07 PM   #14
oldford2
Senior Member
 
oldford2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: pittsfield, MA/ Dunedin, FL
Posts: 1,898
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

deleted
oldford2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2014, 08:12 PM   #15
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ513 View Post
I had a very similar noise an it turned out to be a broken piston. I didn't know it was broke till I pulled the piston completely out. Hope you have better luck than I did.

Dan
I actually had worse luck than you last year when my piston totally broke apart, gouged the cylinder, and I had to have the engine rebuilt: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=104413
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2014, 08:16 PM   #16
DJ513
Junior Member
 
DJ513's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spokane, Wa
Posts: 21
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Same here, Rebored all new parts. I had the machine work done and did the assembly myself. Was $$$$

Dan
DJ513 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2014, 08:24 PM   #17
rheltzel
Senior Member
 
rheltzel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 368
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I feel bad for you, Old Henry. But you'll figure it out, get it fixed, and be back on the road for more adventures.
rheltzel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2014, 08:34 PM   #18
Talkwrench
Senior Member
 
Talkwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 2,184
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Bugger ! Sorry to hear Henry.. Mines out of action too at the mo'
NO swimmin' up there Lawrie too many snappy jaws!
__________________
"Came too close to dying to stop living now!"
Talkwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2014, 10:06 PM   #19
cmbrucew
Senior Member
 
cmbrucew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: North of sandy ago, CA.
Posts: 1,713
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Prof.
If not for bad luck, you would not have any.
Bruce
__________________
Works good
Lasts long time
cmbrucew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2014, 02:31 AM   #20
koates
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Melbourne Australia.
Posts: 1,301
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Henry, For a quick test you could just pull off one spark plug lead at a time and see which cylinder causes the knock to go quieter. What a pain, always something going wrong with Old Henry. Regards, Kevin.
koates is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2014, 05:37 AM   #21
George49Ford
Senior Member
 
George49Ford's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Carson City, NV
Posts: 179
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Might be apples and oranges here, but 30 some odd years ago I had a similar sound in '66 Chevy straight six. Turned out it was chipped tooth on timing gear. Might be easier fix than a rod.
George49Ford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2014, 08:36 AM   #22
Mart
Senior Member
 
Mart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 5,373
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

It does sound bad.

I wouldn't run it too much.

I might just run it shortly without any belts connected just to rule anything external out, but it does sound deep in the motor to me.

Time to pull the motor down again by the sound of it. (Sorry to say).

Mart.
Mart is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 08-22-2014, 09:10 AM   #23
Steves46
Senior Member
 
Steves46's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Lithia, FL
Posts: 900
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

This is a real long shot but maybe a loose crankshaft pulley? A few years back, mine was making a very similar noise and it was the crankshaft pulley.
__________________
If it aint broke, don't fix it!
Steves46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2014, 09:25 AM   #24
sidevalve8ba
Senior Member
 
sidevalve8ba's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Harrisonburg, VA
Posts: 648
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

When the engine is cold does it knock immediately after starting or after it runs for a bit?
sidevalve8ba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2014, 09:27 AM   #25
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 5,113
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steves46 View Post
This is a real long shot but maybe a loose crankshaft pulley? A few years back, mine was making a very similar noise and it was the crankshaft pulley.
Remember the original post. How could a crankshaft pulley cause "just barely able to run"? I think that girl at Jiffy Lube may have over-tightened the Johnson rod. DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


I may not be the BEST, but I'll do 'til he gets here!




V8COOPMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2014, 09:30 AM   #26
Steves46
Senior Member
 
Steves46's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Lithia, FL
Posts: 900
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Yup, my eyes missed that part. Better start eating more carrots! Steve
__________________
If it aint broke, don't fix it!
Steves46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2014, 10:04 AM   #27
Gumpy
Senior Member
 
Gumpy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: petaluma, california
Posts: 1,418
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldford2 View Post
Professor,
Pull one plug at a time and see if the knock stops or diminishes at any cylinder. If it is a rod this test would take all the pressure off the offending cylinder. Just a thought
John
this is what I would try first...anything mechanical can be repaired...
__________________
Wanted Vintage Harley Parts, frame, chassis, motors,complete bikes
Gumpy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2014, 11:13 AM   #28
bobH
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: so cal, placerville, vegas
Posts: 985
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I'll offer a WAG... based on events as they happened on my own 47...
burned piston(s). I had problems with pre-ignition/pinging, and eventually found three pistons with holes on top, at edge, down into the ring-lands.
With heads off, easy to see on top of pistons.
Oh, the fun
bobH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2014, 11:32 AM   #29
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidevalve8ba View Post
When the engine is cold does it knock immediately after starting or after it runs for a bit?
The knocking is the same hot or cold

Quote:
Originally Posted by koates View Post
Henry, For a quick test you could just pull off one spark plug lead at a time and see which cylinder causes the knock to go quieter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldford2 View Post
Professor,
Pull one plug at a time and see if the knock stops or diminishes at any cylinder. If it is a rod this test would take all the pressure off the offending cylinder. Just a thought
John
Unfortunately, pulling the spark plug wires one at a time didn't identify the offending piston (if there is one). It would sure be nice to know which piston it is before I tear into it so I don't have to remove both heads and all pistons to find out. Any other test to find out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ View Post
Dunno? I'd pull all the plugs first and see if they can tell you anything. If they all look the same, then pull the heads and take a look at and massage the pistons for bearing or wristpin issues.

Jack E/NJ
How do I "massage the pistons for bearing and wristpin issues?"
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness

Last edited by Old Henry; 08-22-2014 at 11:43 AM.
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2014, 11:40 AM   #30
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobH View Post
I'll offer a WAG... based on events as they happened on my own 47...
burned piston(s). I had problems with pre-ignition/pinging, and eventually found three pistons with holes on top, at edge, down into the ring-lands.
With heads off, easy to see on top of pistons.
Oh, the fun
That is certainly a possibility since, just a couple of weeks before the noise started, I put my old Stromberg 97 carb back on in place of the Holley 94 I'd been running. Then after the noise started I checked the spark plugs. They were a bit lighter than tan, more toward white, so I checked the jets in the carb and found that they were the .44's I'd put in to climb Pike's Peak and probably too lean. That's when I put larger ones in hoping it would stop what I thought was just premature detonation but it didn't. Maybe the damage was already done.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2014, 11:47 AM   #31
Tinker
Senior Member
 
Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: MN
Posts: 4,163
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Well that sucks... Maybe talk to Walt about building you an engine over the winter for round 2?
Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2014, 12:31 PM   #32
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 11,809
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Henry View Post
That is certainly a possibility since, just a couple of weeks before the noise started, I put my old Stromberg 97 carb back on in place of the Holley 94 I'd been running. Then after the noise started I checked the spark plugs. They were a bit lighter than tan, more toward white, so I checked the jets in the carb and found that they were the .44's I'd put in to climb Pike's Peak and probably too lean. That's when I put larger ones in hoping it would stop what I thought was just premature detonation but it didn't. Maybe the damage was already done.
Why did you pull the 94?
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2014, 12:39 PM   #33
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSeery View Post
Why did you pull the 94?
I had rebuilt it myself because it was seeping gas when I parked it in the garage at night and stinking up the garage. I also thought it might be part of the missing problem I had. After I rebuilt it, including replacing the power valve, it wouldn't hold gas after parked at night and I had to fill it with my electric pump every morning and choke it to start it. The engine didn't run any better either. So, I decided to put the Stromberg back in and see if it did any better.

I had Uncle Max rebuild my 97 but he left the .44 jets in thinking they were OK at my elevation of 5,000 feet. Maybe they were and that has nothing to do with anything but the plugs looked a little lean to me so I put bigger ones in. Didn't help the noise.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2014, 12:41 PM   #34
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I just tried removing a spark plug to see if that made any difference, planning on removing one at a time to try to identify the offending piston. Unfortunately, the noise from the air rushing in and out of the spark plug hole drowned out all other sounds and I couldn't hear anything else.

Other ideas to identify the bad piston?
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2014, 12:55 PM   #35
tamnalan
Senior Member
 
tamnalan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Dayton Ohio
Posts: 104
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I would do a compression check.
tamnalan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2014, 04:20 PM   #36
Jack E/NJ
Senior Member
 
Jack E/NJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,542
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

>>>I just tried removing a spark plug >>>

Do all the plugs looks the same now? Tan, white, black, wet, etc?

Jack E/NJ
Jack E/NJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2014, 04:28 PM   #37
Mart
Senior Member
 
Mart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 5,373
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Prof, try removing the lead, rather than the plug.

Mart.
Mart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2014, 05:08 PM   #38
Mike B
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oakdale,Ca
Posts: 1,323
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

My thoughts since there is a noise and poor engine performance, it will require pulling a head off and see what's going on.

I can't see (in my mind) how changing jets, adding more choke, etc, would reduce a bearing/wristpin noise.
Mike B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2014, 05:21 PM   #39
ford3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: oroville calif.
Posts: 1,453
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Henry, there are six pistons that will come out the bottom of the engine with out pulling the head, I have done that when one of my pistons burnt a hole in itself, I cant remember which ones that can come out, been a lot of yrs, the hard part is collapsing the rings one at a time to get the piston back in the bore
ford3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2014, 02:17 PM   #40
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamnalan View Post
I would do a compression check.
Just checked compression and got:

1-72
2-78
3-72
4-68
5-75
6-80
7-74
8-74

Does that tell you anything? It doesn't me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ View Post
>>>I just tried removing a spark plug >>>

Do all the plugs looks the same now? Tan, white, black, wet, etc?

Jack E/NJ
All plugs looked the same - dark - 'cause I just put the Stromberg back in with .47 jets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart View Post
Prof, try removing the lead, rather than the plug.

Mart.
Did that. Didn't make any difference.

Any more ideas?
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2014, 02:34 PM   #41
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Some progress! I decided to try pulling the plugs one at a time again and see if I could hear the knock through the very loud noise of the air rushing in and out of the plug holes. It about made me deaf but I could barely perceive the knock except on cylinders 1 and 5 that are both hooked onto the same offset on the crankshaft. That's at least a start to have narrowed it down to one of those two.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2014, 02:38 PM   #42
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike B View Post
My thoughts since there is a noise and poor engine performance, it will require pulling a head off and see what's going on.

I can't see (in my mind) how changing jets, adding more choke, etc, would reduce a bearing/wristpin noise.
I didn't have poor engine performance except when I pulled the choke out enough to cause it when I was checking to see if it was just premature detonation which, along with larger jets, can be and is reduced by enriching the mixture. Of course, when none of that worked I realized it was something else that wasn't solved by any of that. Using high octane fuel can also reduce premature detonation. Tried that too without benefit.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 08-23-2014, 02:45 PM   #43
Jack E/NJ
Senior Member
 
Jack E/NJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,542
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

So what's the noise like when you disconnect both wires to plugs 1 & 5? Does it sound any different than when you disconnect 2 & 6 or 3 & 7 or 4 & 8? Cpmpression seems kinda low on all cylinders.

Jack E/NJ
Jack E/NJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2014, 02:47 PM   #44
Mart
Senior Member
 
Mart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 5,373
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

The compression numbers seem a bit low, but as they are all similar it is probably something to do with the test technique rather than all 8 cylinders having a problem.

Mart.
Mart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2014, 03:01 PM   #45
supereal
Senior Member
 
supereal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Iowa
Posts: 1,139
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Use a long screw driver or a metal rod to your ear and check each cylinder for noise at idle. If you have a stethoscope, so much the better. If you locate the offending cylinder, you will know it is a bearing. We had one of those in our shop a couple of years ago caused by an improper sleeved engine which allowed coolant into the oil pan which, in turn, shucked the rod bearing for that cylinder. Pulling the engine is always the best way to check lower end problems, and to see if the crank is scored. A knock may be as simple as a bad fan bearing. Pulling the choke out to change the noise is odd. It could be a broken valve spring which you can check by pulling the intake manifold. They can be hard to see, so look carefully. Let us know what you find.
supereal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2014, 03:04 PM   #46
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Compression spec in the operator's manual is 105-125 at sea level which translates to 70-83 psi at 5,000 feet where I live which all but in is within so the overall compression is OK, especially since no one cylinder varies drastically.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2014, 03:06 PM   #47
Mart
Senior Member
 
Mart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 5,373
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

A good point well made.

I'm not used to making adjustments for high altitude.

Mart.
Mart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2014, 03:08 PM   #48
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ View Post
So what's the noise like when you disconnect both wires to plugs 1 & 5? Does it sound any different than when you disconnect 2 & 6 or 3 & 7 or 4 & 8? Cpmpression seems kinda low on all cylinders.

Jack E/NJ
Knocking is reduced by pulling the sparkplug wire on either 1 or 5 and totally eliminated by pulling both.

What does it all mean?
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2014, 03:10 PM   #49
Mart
Senior Member
 
Mart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 5,373
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

99% sure it means you need to pull the motor and investigate the crank and bearings.

Sorry.

Mart.
Mart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2014, 03:13 PM   #50
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by supereal View Post
Use a long screw driver or a metal rod to your ear and check each cylinder for noise at idle. If you have a stethoscope, so much the better.
Tried to hear something with the stethoscope on the heads and couldn't hear anything. I'd have to try to get it on the side of the engine from below. Haven't done that yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by supereal View Post
Pulling the choke out to change the noise is odd.
It works great for premature detonation which I thought it was initially.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2014, 03:15 PM   #51
Ronnie
Senior Member
 
Ronnie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Canada Where it snows
Posts: 1,908
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Your done.Time to perform surgery on that flattie.This is some internal engine failure not going to get better.Not a fun job with that particular model but you will overcome and report back as you usually do.Its not your first rodeo.

R
Ronnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2014, 03:16 PM   #52
Kube
Senior Member
 
Kube's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 4,992
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Henry View Post
Knocking is reduced by pulling the sparkplug wire on either 1 or 5 and totally eliminated by pulling both.

What does it all mean?
Sounds like the bearing and / or crank journal is poopy in that location as both of those rods are connected to the same journal. If this is the case, the crank and rods will need to be properly reconditioned. For that, you will need to remove the engine.
If this engine was "rebuilt" by the same guy that "rebuilt" it in the past I'd strongly advise you have ALL of the rods and journals checked by a professional.
__________________
"Imagination is a crutch used by those who lack knowledge and intelligence ."
B
. Franklin
Kube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2014, 03:33 PM   #53
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 5,113
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kube View Post
If this engine was "rebuilt" by the same guy that "rebuilt" it in the past I'd strongly advise you have ALL of the rods and journals checked by a professional.
It WAS kind'a pretty, though! Doc Roger as I remember. DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


I may not be the BEST, but I'll do 'til he gets here!




V8COOPMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2014, 12:41 PM   #54
Cecil/WV
Senior Member
 
Cecil/WV's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Gerrardstown, WV
Posts: 2,126
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

By the sound, I think you will have the engine out of the chassis before it is fixed. Sorry for such a negative opinion. Now, prove me wrong and we will both be happy.
Cecil/WV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2014, 12:55 PM   #55
Ross F-1
Senior Member
 
Ross F-1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: NM
Posts: 2,142
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Henry View Post
Compression spec in the operator's manual is 105-125 at sea level which translates to 70-83 psi at 5,000 feet where I live which all but in is within so the overall compression is OK, especially since no one cylinder varies drastically.
Correct, on a fresh rebuilt 8BA at 5350', I get 85 - 90 psi across the board (heads have not been shaved).

I wouldn't dream of running that engine until the oil passages and sludge traps had been cleaned out, in addition to whatever the crank/rods need. Pulling the engine is not that big a deal, you can have it out and on the stand in a day. I always have a lot of inertia, trying to figure a way around it, but in the end it's better to just bite the bullet.
__________________
'52 F-1, EAB flathead
Ross F-1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2014, 01:18 PM   #56
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross F-1 View Post
Pulling the engine is not that big a deal, you can have it out and on the stand in a day. I always have a lot of inertia, trying to figure a way around it, but in the end it's better to just bite the bullet.
Thanks for the words of encouragement.
At this point my "inertia" that you speak of is greater than my desire to drive (and you know how much I love to drive). So, "Old Henry", will be getting a long deserved vacation from service unless Old Chuckles up the street has some confidence that he and I can fix this problem without removing the engine. That was just so painful the one time I've done it that I won't be doing that again for the foreseeable future. And I don't have a stand nor any knowledge of what to do with the inside of the engine even if I did. I'd have to haul it or send it to someone. . . . Just too much to face right now.

Thanks again for everyone's help and advice. It has been very instructive and supportive.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2014, 05:43 PM   #57
oldford2
Senior Member
 
oldford2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: pittsfield, MA/ Dunedin, FL
Posts: 1,898
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Professor,
I know you live up in Utah but don't know how rural your town is. If you have Fordbarners in your area, now would be the time for them to rally to your support and arrive to help remove the engine a see what the problem is. One day of work and you might have an answer. If you are a member of the EFV8 club, maybe there is a club that some members could travel over for a day.

Now is the time to help a fellow Barner

John
oldford2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2014, 05:49 PM   #58
Lawrie
Senior Member
 
Lawrie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Qld, Australia
Posts: 3,079
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

What a bummer Henry, both our cars need surgery ,but it's no drama,just get the engine out and get into it,at least you are lucky living in the USA and can get parts easily,
The parts for the 33 engine have arrived at my boys place( thanks Fred ),
And
The repairs will be no problem.
Lawrie
Lawrie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2014, 06:41 PM   #59
ford3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: oroville calif.
Posts: 1,453
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Old Henry, before you go to far pull the pan and those two rods, mic the crank, you might just get away with polishing the throw and installing new bearings
ford3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2014, 07:13 PM   #60
tiquer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Kamloops B.C.
Posts: 392
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ford3 View Post
Old Henry, before you go to far pull the pan and those two rods, mic the crank, you might just get away with polishing the throw and installing new bearings
It sounds like its too late for a polish . With that much noise Its time to remove and have a closer look. May be someone close by can give you a hand. Wish I was there we have that puppy out and tore down in no time.
tiquer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2014, 07:42 PM   #61
cdan34
Member
 
cdan34's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Mill Valley, Calif.
Posts: 65
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I had the same problem. I was burning the midnight oil and I forgot to put one head gasket on. Stupid mistake ! When I started it up, it ran but the noise made me stop it right away. Off with the head and that was the problem. The pistons were hitting the heads about two thirds towards the diameter of the piston. I checked everything, there was a small mark on the pistons where it was hitting but bearing clearance was OK. I've got 1500 miles on it now, and no problems yet. I was fortunate on that bad mistake!

When you find the problem, let us Know !

Good luck
Cdan34
cdan34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2014, 07:44 PM   #62
1937pickup
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 586
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I just feel so bad for you-you take such good care of your car and you love to drive it and now this. I would contact your rebuilder for a refund.
1937pickup is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 08-24-2014, 11:26 PM   #63
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Wow! People who really care. I guess that's why I keep coming back to the barn. It's not just a bunch of numb nuts that only seek and share info, there's a real community here to help.

All it will probably take is for me to get excited about another road trip. Then I'll at least pull the pan off and see what I can see where those front two pistons connect. Won't know what I'm looking for but I'm thinking Old Chuckles up the street will know. I'll call him tomorrow for a consult.

Only have two other barners in the state but their both an hour or two away.

Thanks again for all of your caring and support. I'll let you know how it goes, if anything goes at all.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness

Last edited by Old Henry; 08-24-2014 at 11:34 PM.
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2014, 11:30 PM   #64
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1937pickup View Post
I just feel so bad for you-you take such good care of your car and you love to drive it and now this. I would contact your rebuilder for a refund.
My rebuilder actually did the last rebuild for nothing. I wrote him a check for the full amount of a rebuild and he never cashed the check. In spite of all of the heckling he's received from some I'd probably take it back to him again since he's been so good to me in the past and I know of no one else in my state that still rebuilds flatheads and has had 40+ years doing it.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2014, 09:18 AM   #65
Ronnie
Senior Member
 
Ronnie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Canada Where it snows
Posts: 1,908
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

OH Doing a quick search these fellows have all the equipment required. http://www.huntermachine.com/ There also appears to be more shops that could perform the machine work.
You only have an old v8 ford.The basic machine requirements could be done in that shop in a heart beat.You will need to get that engine apart to confirm what failed.

R

Last edited by Ronnie; 08-25-2014 at 09:25 AM.
Ronnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2014, 01:13 PM   #66
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Any harm in running on 6 cylinders?

After a week of withdrawals from not driving "Old Henry", afraid that the knocking sound in the engine would get worse and make things worse before I could find someone to fix it, I had this scathingly brilliant idea last night to just pull the wires off of the plugs on those two front offending pistons and drive on 6 cylinders. So I did. Took a ride up the canyon that I've missed. Was a bit rough and slow on the start from stop and slower going up hill but above 40 mph, when the knocking used to kick in, the engine seemed to run as smooth as on 8 cylinders without any knocking. I don't think I'd take a road trip that way but any harm of a daily cruise on 6 cylinders?
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2014, 01:39 PM   #67
dwaynec
Senior Member
 
dwaynec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Davenport, IA
Posts: 161
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

If it were me I wouldn't drive it. Even though the cylinders are not firing they are still getting compression that will put stress on the damaged part of the motor. That could cause more damage. Then there is the stresses caused by an engine that is running rough, and the emissions of unburied fuel to consider.

Again this is just my opinion.
__________________
Dwayne
dwaynec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2014, 01:48 PM   #68
Mart
Senior Member
 
Mart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 5,373
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Sorry Prof, but it is not a good idea to keep running it. The worn parts are still flailing around.

You need to accept that Old Henry will need some down time. The time you spent driving could have been spent pulling the motor.

Mart.
Mart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2014, 01:55 PM   #69
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I kinda though that.

I actually have a lead on a guy within a mile of me who may remove the engine and fix it and reinstall it. I'll know Tuesday. That would sure be nice. Hope that works out. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2014, 04:13 PM   #70
B-O-B
Senior Member
 
B-O-B's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ft Mohave,Az
Posts: 1,699
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Any harm in running on 6 cylinders?
Not if it is a 6 cylinder, not so good if you have 8.!!!
B-O-B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2014, 04:14 PM   #71
Mike51Merc
Senior Member
 
Mike51Merc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,531
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Back in the old days, guys would just drop the pan and put in a new set of rod bearings. If the journals aren't cooked, you might get away with doing just that.
Mike51Merc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2014, 06:01 PM   #72
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike51Merc View Post
Back in the old days, guys would just drop the pan and put in a new set of rod bearings. If the journals aren't cooked, you might get away with doing just that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ford3 View Post
Old Henry, before you go to far pull the pan and those two rods, mic the crank, you might just get away with polishing the throw and installing new bearings
I'm still interested in this idea that the necessary repair might be made without removing the engine. I have removed the oil pan before so know how to do that and can do that. I'm just not sure what to look for after that. Here's a diagram of the crankshaft, piston, and connecting rods for me to ask some questions that I'd need to know if I try to fix this whether the engine is in or out of the car.




So, first off, I'm not sure what the "journals" are that have been mentioned. Is that the surface of the section of the crankshaft that the connecting rods connect to? If so, how would one know whether or not they are "cooked"?

Is 6211 the bearings that might need replaced? How would I know?

If I remove the oil pan can I grab the connecting rods for pistons 1 and 5 and detect enough looseness to know what the problem is and how to fix it?

How do I know whether it's a wrist pin, broken piston, connecting rod bearing, or "journal" that needs repaired?

I'd dearly love to believe I could fix this with the oil pan off but I have a lot of doubts, even if the engine was out, about my knowledge and abilities.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2014, 06:07 PM   #73
Ross F-1
Senior Member
 
Ross F-1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: NM
Posts: 2,142
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Henry View Post
...
How do I know whether it's a wrist pin, broken piston, connecting rod bearing, or "journal" that needs repaired?
....
Complete disassembly and inspection. There are repairs that might get you by for a while, but I assume you want an engine you can trust in the middle of the Great Basin?
__________________
'52 F-1, EAB flathead
Ross F-1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2014, 06:12 PM   #74
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Sure hope I can find someone to do the job.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness

Last edited by Old Henry; 08-30-2014 at 06:30 PM.
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2014, 07:23 PM   #75
Kube
Senior Member
 
Kube's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 4,992
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Henry View Post
Sure hope I can find someone to do the job.
Crate it up and send it to me. It WILL be done correctly the first time. Guaranteed.
Joke all ya want about my "trailer queens" but rest assured each and every one is built to run down the road better than new. That "pretty" goes way beyond what a guy can see.
__________________
"Imagination is a crutch used by those who lack knowledge and intelligence ."
B
. Franklin

Last edited by Kube; 08-30-2014 at 07:47 PM.
Kube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2014, 07:41 PM   #76
KiWinUS
Senior Member
 
KiWinUS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Charlotte NC
Posts: 1,669
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

or "ME"
KiWinUS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2014, 07:53 PM   #77
Lawrie
Senior Member
 
Lawrie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Qld, Australia
Posts: 3,079
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Or Walt,
Henry,you need to take one of these guys offer up,
You. Don't need to end up not being able to travel around in ol Henry ,
We had to do our trip in our fairlane,not as good as traveling in the 33 , but still good fun.
Lawrie
Attached Images
File Type: jpg image.jpg (78.9 KB, 39 views)
Lawrie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2014, 10:50 PM   #78
lonewolf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 388
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Drain the oil. If its a rod the oil will be full of metal or look glittery
lonewolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2014, 11:37 PM   #79
Flowmeister
Senior Member
 
Flowmeister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Calgary Alberta
Posts: 133
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Seems like some real genuine offers of help here.
That's great to see!
Flowmeister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2014, 11:46 PM   #80
the cooch
Member
 
the cooch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Posts: 82
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

My humble suggestion is to grab a runner and throw it in, send the o.g. mill to the shop and get the rotating assembly replaced with stroker crank and parts (or just repaired) then resell the motor you don't need ( or find a spot in the garage for it) when you get the old motor back. Running motor in your area should be fairly easy to find and less money than a major rebuild and you can get the car on the road, pay for the machine work in stages and enjoy the peace of mind you get from the cars original engine being remanufactured carefully. Somebody near you has a hoist, and a motor and some time, I'm 8 hours away with a hoist and an engine ready to throw in the back of the bronco and the next three days off- 'cause the ford barn without you road tripping and posting pics just ain't right!
the cooch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2014, 05:53 AM   #81
BILL WZOREK
Senior Member
 
BILL WZOREK's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Florence Ma.
Posts: 2,404
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Old Henry:

Let me tell you a story:

There was this major flood, the water was rising the emergency responder went door to door telling every one to leave, they got to this one house the fellow would not leave saying I have left my fate in GOD'S hands ,
He will save me.
The water continued to rise forcing this fellow to retreat to the 2nd floor, again the Emergency responders came this time in a canoe.
They told him Quick get in, He said "NO" I will leave my Fate in GOD'S hands. so the responders left. & the waters continued to rise forcing him to the Roof.
Again the emergency responders came this time in a helicopter this time they dropped down a rescue basket and told him to get in and they would take him to safety, again he said "NO" I will leave my Fate in GOD'S hands.
As the responders left they saw a large wave completely cover the house
sweeping the fellow away to his death,
He went to the pearly gates & he saw GOD, He asked GOD I have lead a good life always trying to do what was rite , always going to church, I put my life in your hands.
I don't understand WHY did you let me Die:::::
GOD responded YOU FOOL I SENT YOU HELP 3 TIMES

The MORAL here is >>>>>>>> HENRY TAKE UP ONE OF THE OFFERS they are all good & sincere ~~~
BILL WZOREK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2014, 07:12 AM   #82
moonshine runner
Senior Member
 
moonshine runner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Webb City, Missouri
Posts: 349
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kube View Post
Crate it up and send it to me. It WILL be done correctly the first time. Guaranteed.
Joke all ya want about my "trailer queens" but rest assured each and every one is built to run down the road better than new. That "pretty" goes way beyond what a guy can see.
Man, That is really nice of Mike (Kube), and KiWinUS to offer up that help Craig. Like I said in a recent post, I really appreciate my Ford Barn friends!!

Kevin
__________________
"Failure is simply the opportunity to begin again, this time more intelligently".

Henry Ford.
moonshine runner is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 08-31-2014, 08:37 AM   #83
Mike51Merc
Senior Member
 
Mike51Merc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,531
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Henry,
Journals are the bearing surfaces on the crank.
Drop the pan and wiggle each rod cap. The one(s) that wobble are the bad ones. Also look for blueing/blackening discoloration, indicating they're "cooked". If they're cooked, you'll be making new friends at the nearest machine shop, and possibly shopping for a new crank & rods.

Bearings are softer than the surfaces they "bear". They are sacrificial, meaning that they are supposed to wear out instead of the components they protect. Sometimes if you catch them early you can get away with just changing the bearings---- it's not the preferred solution, it's just to get by with some more miles.

There was a YouTube video showing the process, but I can't seem to find it for you.

If you continue to drive it, you could turn repairable parts into scrap metal.
Mike51Merc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2014, 10:29 AM   #84
TomO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 329
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

The no1 and no5 cylinders share a rod bearing, if you still have the original 29A rods with the floating bearings. The engine should be pulled in order to fit the new bearing to the rod and the journal.

I am pretty sure that you have the floating bearings, because you had to remove the wires on the two cylinders to quiet the knock.

I would not continue to run the engine, you may throw a rod and destroy the block.
__________________
TomO
TomO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2014, 07:45 PM   #85
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I am truly overwhelmed by the sincere offers to help fix my engine. Now if I could just find that AWOL Scotty to beam my engine there.

I have sincerely considered the offers including checking on freight charges to ship my engine which would be from $2,000 to $3,000 round trip to and from those who've offered. At least for me, that's quite a bit to add to the repair bill just for transportation. Plus, I'd still have to remove the engine, "crate it up", which I have no idea how to do, then reinstall the engine when I get it back.

If that darn Scotty would just get back to his station for a "beaming" I'd do it in a minute. I may still, as a last resort, if this other angle I'm pursuing doesn't work out.

Thanks again for everyone's sincere concern and offers to help.

You guys are the greatest.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2014, 07:58 PM   #86
Marv
Senior Member
 
Marv's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 874
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Henry you like to drive. so why don't you rent a truck and haul it yourself. The mechanic you have been using does not seem to be much help.
Marv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2014, 09:48 PM   #87
cmbrucew
Senior Member
 
cmbrucew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: North of sandy ago, CA.
Posts: 1,713
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Hi Prof.
Call H&H Flatheads
4451 Ramsdell Ave.
La Crescentia, CA.91214
Mike's number is 818 248 2371
Been doing first class work for many years.
Bruce
__________________
Works good
Lasts long time
cmbrucew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2014, 06:48 AM   #88
hotcoupe
Senior Member
 
hotcoupe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: imperial,mo
Posts: 514
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

i cannot recommend H&H flatheads after my engine builder checked the work that they did to a "99" block that i purchased from H&H. lot of money, sloppy work.
tom
hotcoupe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2014, 06:59 AM   #89
klicker
Senior Member
 
klicker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 295
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I had my coupe shipped 1200 miles in an enclosed trailer for $800. Where did you get the $2-3,000 shipping cost? There's gotta be cheaper ways. Anyway, best of luck!
klicker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2014, 07:01 AM   #90
Kube
Senior Member
 
Kube's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 4,992
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Henry View Post
I am truly overwhelmed by the sincere offers to help fix my engine. Now if I could just find that AWOL Scotty to beam my engine there.

I have sincerely considered the offers including checking on freight charges to ship my engine which would be from $2,000 to $3,000 round trip to and from those who've offered. At least for me, that's quite a bit to add to the repair bill just for transportation. Plus, I'd still have to remove the engine, "crate it up", which I have no idea how to do, then reinstall the engine when I get it back.

If that darn Scotty would just get back to his station for a "beaming" I'd do it in a minute. I may still, as a last resort, if this other angle I'm pursuing doesn't work out.

Thanks again for everyone's sincere concern and offers to help.

You guys are the greatest.
I've shipped engines all over the USA. Never has one exceeded $475. In fact, of all the cars I've shipped, none of those have exceeded $2000 (round trip).
Send me the entire car and while it's here we can sort out all the other ills.
If you like driving that car how currently is, you'll be like a pig in mud once it is repaired properly!
__________________
"Imagination is a crutch used by those who lack knowledge and intelligence ."
B
. Franklin
Kube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2014, 07:13 AM   #91
Cecil/WV
Senior Member
 
Cecil/WV's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Gerrardstown, WV
Posts: 2,126
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by klicker View Post
I had my coupe shipped 1200 miles in an enclosed trailer for $800. Where did you get the $2-3,000 shipping cost? There's gotta be cheaper ways. Anyway, best of luck!
I shipped the engine that we raffled off in Gettysburg from Martinsburg WV to Lockport, NY VIA Fastenal, the fastener folks, for $150.00. Cheapest shipping I know of. All I had to do was bolt it to a pallet and they wrapped it with shrink wrap.
Cecil/WV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2014, 09:56 AM   #92
wga
Senior Member
 
wga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Land of Gracious Living
Posts: 657
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Old Henry -- You've got the help you need - pull that motor now, get it on a crate,
ship via Fastenal (check their website for a local store) to one of the builders
here on the FB. And soon you and Mrs. H will be out on the road. While the motors
out, check your engine and trans mounts, brakes, wiring, etc. Get any issues there
squared away.

Hotcoupe - sorry to hear that things did not work out with H&H. I just spoke with Mike at a recent car show. They did a motor I used in a friends woodie. No issues, motor runs fine. (Brizio's shop uses them).
__________________
Henry Ford designed the flathead without the aid of a computer.
wga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2014, 11:14 AM   #93
waterboychuck
Senior Member
 
waterboychuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Nine Mile Falls,WA
Posts: 852
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I had fastenal.com ship a belly mower for my 1949 Farmall Cub tractor from St Louis to Spokane,WA for $225. Another quote I got was $616. It pays to shop around.
http://www.fastenal.com/web/en/22/th...782!1580556340
__________________
The sign of a good craftsman is how well they cover up their mistakes.
waterboychuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2014, 12:49 PM   #94
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I struck out on all of my attempts to get my engine fixed in my state (my previous builder no longer responded to my emails nor phone messages) so I turned my attention away from Old Henry and got my favorite motorcycle running and insured again and was quite content with driving that with Pepe aboard for the foreseeable future. Then I realized that I was overdue for the monthly trip I take with my dad, who bought the car for $100 in 1959, and how much he enjoyed it and would miss it. So, I was just about to haul the car to Colorado for the cooch to fix it for me as he'd offered. Then, just as I was about to finalize that deal I had the thought to dig out my old Early Ford V8 Club roster and call some members in town to see if there wasn't someone local who did flathead engines. Sure enough, the first guy that answered my call knew just who and I delivered the car to him yesterday and he started to remove the engine today. Hope it works out OK. I expect that it will and I'll have Old Henry back on the road again soon if for nothing else than to take my dad on his monthly trip.

Checked in today and he had the engine out of the car and the oil pan and clutch off. Here's a picture of the oil pan showing the bad news indicators in there:



I just reached under the engine the was hanging on the hoist and grabbed the #1 piston connecting rod end and there was plenty of play in it so that's where I expect we're going to find the wear.

I was also curious about the condition of my flywheel and clutch that had been chattering since I turned the flywheel and replaced the clutch with one from Mac VanPelt just in April, 6,000 miles ago. As you can see, the flywheel is burned again.





And so is the pressure plate.



And the clutch disc is already worn down to the rivets in several places.



So, I'll have the flywheel turned again and am sending the clutch to Fort Wayne Clutch today for replacement. Hope that all of that gets rid of the clutch chatter once and for all. It has been so annoying.

When Paul (who's now working on my engine) gets it on a stand and turned over and the connecting rods removed I'll get some more pictures to share of the actual damage.

Of course, the big question will be, what caused the damage in just 50,000 miles and how to prevent it in the future.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness

Last edited by Old Henry; 09-10-2014 at 12:55 PM.
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2014, 12:56 PM   #95
Ross F-1
Senior Member
 
Ross F-1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: NM
Posts: 2,142
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Not much question what needs to be fixed there!

That looks to me to be burned oil on the clutch.
__________________
'52 F-1, EAB flathead
Ross F-1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2014, 01:21 PM   #96
green50
Senior Member
 
green50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: North Georgia
Posts: 392
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I'm glad to see Old Henry is is in the process of getting repaired. I'm sure your dad will appreciate it more than anyone.
__________________
Gene
green50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2014, 01:25 PM   #97
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 11,809
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Also, I would think it was more of a pressure plate issue than a clutch plate issue for both chatter and slippage. But, if there is oil getting to the clutch it is going to slip.
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2014, 02:35 PM   #98
Fordors
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Orland Park,IL
Posts: 1,312
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

The heat checking on the pressure plate is localized between 6 and 9 o'clock and that leads me to believe that the finger at the 2 o'clock position in the photo was high. I agree that there was likely some oil contaminating that clutch assembly but even without that the clutch would chatter. Those fingers are forged and there is no way to adjust height so the machining had to be spot on, or the PP assembled, checked and disassembled and then subsequent machining or shimming to ensure a quality result for finger height. Fort Wayne might use those fingers again, but set it up right, or they may replace with adjustable levers.
Professor, the best thing you are doing here is using the services of a reputable, trusted automotive machinist to do this rebuild. I was glad to see you "took a pass" on the services of a guy who had volunteered to help. Maybe the cooch could have done the job but the guy you selected came with references. What do they say on the TV commercial? Pay me now or pay me later.
__________________
My school colors are black and blue, I attended the School of Hard Knocks where I received a Masters Degree in Chronic Mopery.
Fordors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2014, 03:09 PM   #99
Bolts
Senior Member
 
Bolts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Prescott, AZ
Posts: 585
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Craig, how big are the biggest chunks and are they steel or aluminum?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Henry View Post
I struck out on all of my attempts to get my engine fixed in my state (my previous builder no longer responded to my emails nor phone messages) so I turned my attention away from Old Henry and got my favorite motorcycle running and insured again and was quite content with driving that with Pepe aboard for the foreseeable future. Then I realized that I was overdue for the monthly trip I take with my dad, who bought the car for $100 in 1959, and how much he enjoyed it and would miss it. So, I was just about to haul the car to Colorado for the cooch to fix it for me as he'd offered. Then, just as I was about to finalize that deal I had the thought to dig out my old Early Ford V8 Club roster and call some members in town to see if there wasn't someone local who did flathead engines. Sure enough, the first guy that answered my call knew just who and I delivered the car to him yesterday and he started to remove the engine today. Hope it works out OK. I expect that it will and I'll have Old Henry back on the road again soon if for nothing else than to take my dad on his monthly trip.

Checked in today and he had the engine out of the car and the oil pan and clutch off. Here's a picture of the oil pan showing the bad news indicators in there:



I just reached under the engine the was hanging on the hoist and grabbed the #1 piston connecting rod end and there was plenty of play in it so that's where I expect we're going to find the wear.

I was also curious about the condition of my flywheel and clutch that had been chattering since I turned the flywheel and replaced the clutch with one from Mac VanPelt just in April, 6,000 miles ago. As you can see, the flywheel is burned again.





And so is the pressure plate.



And the clutch disc is already worn down to the rivets in several places.



So, I'll have the flywheel turned again and am sending the clutch to Fort Wayne Clutch today for replacement. Hope that all of that gets rid of the clutch chatter once and for all. It has been so annoying.

When Paul (who's now working on my engine) gets it on a stand and turned over and the connecting rods removed I'll get some more pictures to share of the actual damage.

Of course, the big question will be, what caused the damage in just 50,000 miles and how to prevent it in the future.
__________________
Nothing wrong with it except for the name on the front.
Alex
Bolts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2014, 03:22 PM   #100
JM 35 Sedan
Senior Member
 
JM 35 Sedan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Near Rising Sun, Maryland
Posts: 9,630
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I would suggest getting an original 9" or 10" (whichever size that setup takes) core pressure plate and clutch disk to send to Fort Wayne for rebuild rather than use the assembly shown here that just came out of the car for the core. Depending on the manufacturers origin of the C&PP shown, Fort Wayne may refuse to rebuilt that core anyway.

Here is a 9" C&PP assembly that i recently had done by Fort Wayne. The quality of their rebuilds is awesome and MADE IN THE USA!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20140809_202619.jpg (64.8 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg 20140809_202553.jpg (64.6 KB, 27 views)
File Type: jpg 20140809_202519.jpg (69.7 KB, 27 views)
File Type: jpg 20140809_202503.jpg (74.2 KB, 27 views)
__________________
John

"Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts". Albert Einstein

Last edited by JM 35 Sedan; 09-10-2014 at 03:38 PM.
JM 35 Sedan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2014, 03:28 PM   #101
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolts View Post
Craig, how big are the biggest chunks and are they steel or aluminum?
The picture shows the oil drain plug that is magnetized to give some scale to the size of the chunks and none of them are stuck to the magnet so they are not iron but something else.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2014, 03:31 PM   #102
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordors View Post
Professor, the best thing you are doing here is using the services of a reputable, trusted automotive machinist to do this rebuild. I was glad to see you "took a pass" on the services of a guy who had volunteered to help. Maybe the cooch could have done the job but the guy you selected came with references. What do they say on the TV commercial? Pay me now or pay me later.
In defense of the cooch, he was not actually going to repair the engine but had contacts with others in Colorado that would do the job. He actually had an engine to exchange for mine if I wanted to.

I greatly appreciate his and others' offers to help.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 09-10-2014, 03:32 PM   #103
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan View Post
I would suggest getting an original 9" or 10" (whichever size that setup takes) core pressure plate and clutch disk to send to Fort Wayne for rebuild rather than use the assembly shown here that just came out of the car for the core. Depending on the manufacturers origin of the C&PP shown, Fort Wayne may refuse to rebuilt that core anyway.
Fort Wayne has the clutch for my car on the shelf and will send it the day they get mine rather than rebuilding mine.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2014, 03:48 PM   #104
Kube
Senior Member
 
Kube's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 4,992
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Henry, It appears to me as if that flywheel and pressure plate is junk.
If the flywheel has already been ground twice, it is most likely near the end of its specified life. That heat checking... well, it will be difficult to remove properly.
As you must certainly have realized by now, the labor is the costly part of repairing this stuff properly.
Parts are fairly reasonable.
__________________
"Imagination is a crutch used by those who lack knowledge and intelligence ."
B
. Franklin
Kube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2014, 04:55 PM   #105
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 11,809
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Henry View Post
Fort Wayne has the clutch for my car on the shelf and will send it the day they get mine rather than rebuilding mine.
I would guess putting any clutch plate back in with the existing pressure plate will end with the same result! I would be much more concerned with the pressure plate (and the flywheel).
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2014, 10:49 PM   #106
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSeery View Post
I would guess putting any clutch plate back in with the existing pressure plate will end with the same result! I would be much more concerned with the pressure plate (and the flywheel).
The clutch includes the pressure plate and clutch disc.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 07:36 AM   #107
Andy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Kerrville, Tx
Posts: 2,188
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

That clutch looks very light duty. I thougt a 10" 9 spring clutch was stock for your car. I would not put anything but a 10" back in. The one you took out might be for a 60 horse. I would also get another flywheel due to the heat checking.
Andy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 10:03 AM   #108
TomO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 329
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

When you install the clutch, block the pressure plate fingers to release the pressure on the disc. Tighten all of the bolts and then remove the blocks. This will help prevent warping the pressure plate. A warped pressure plate will cause chatter.
__________________
TomO
TomO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 01:26 PM   #109
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
That clutch looks very light duty. I thougt a 10" 9 spring clutch was stock for your car. I would not put anything but a 10" back in. The one you took out might be for a 60 horse. I would also get another flywheel due to the heat checking.
The clutch is 10" and stock style.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 01:47 PM   #110
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Well, here's the culprit:



On the left is the bearing for the front two pistons as it came off of the engine, worn and broken. On the right is the bearing from the next set of pistons that isn't in as bad of shape but still showing wear.

The mystery is all of the metal in the oil pan. It seems like more than what would have come off of this one worn out bearing.

Another mystery is what caused it to wear out and how to prevent it from doing so again.

That worn out bearing looked like a quick fix to me - just pop a new bearing in, put it back together and back in the car and let me get "on the road again." Might even have been done from underneath without removing the engine. Good thing I'm not in charge.

Paul took the whole crankshaft out to check it for wear. It turns out that the bearing surfaces need turning again but if that is done bearings are no longer available to fit it. In other words, the crankshaft is worn out and shouldn't be used any more. That was the bad news.

The good news is that I still have the original crankshaft for that engine that has never been worked and has its original surfaces. Paul was a bit shocked when I brought it in. The surfaces measured 1 thousandth wear is all, plenty of surface to clean up and fit with new bearings for many more miles to come.

The other bad news was that, when the oil pump was removed, there were metal particles all in it



and the oil pump well.



Somehow particles from the disintegrated bearing made it through the oil pump screen and into the oil passages, meaning that such particles were being pumped by the oil through all of the wear surfaces. That's bad. So, what looked like just a bottom end job turns into an entire tear down to clean out all of the metal particles from all of the oil passages and replacing the oil pump before we're done.

Other good news is that the pistons and cylinders looked fine and could have been left alone but for needing to tear down to rinse the metal fragments out of everything.

__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness

Last edited by Old Henry; 09-11-2014 at 01:59 PM.
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 01:55 PM   #111
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Paul is willing to let me get the parts to save his profit on them. He will tell me the size of bearings I need to get when the crankshaft gets machined. So, my question is, are all bearings created equal or are there some that are better than others and, if so, where do I get them?

Same thing for oil pumps. Any sources have better ones than others?
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 01:56 PM   #112
Ross F-1
Senior Member
 
Ross F-1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: NM
Posts: 2,142
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I can't say that I've ever seen a bearing shell completely broken in half!
__________________
'52 F-1, EAB flathead
Ross F-1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 02:00 PM   #113
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross F-1 View Post
I can't say that I've ever seen a bearing shell completely broken in half!
When I first started this engine after it sat for 31 years it had a knock at idle and the oil pressure was low. When I had it rebuilt after 10,000 miles all of the bearings were split in two.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 02:03 PM   #114
super flat
Senior Member
 
super flat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: west bend wi
Posts: 291
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Henry, I would let the rebuilder get all the parts, if you carry them in there is no way he can guarantee them. Good luck, Gary
__________________
I am usually relatively happy------Gary
super flat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 02:05 PM   #115
super flat
Senior Member
 
super flat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: west bend wi
Posts: 291
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Split bearings are NOT NORMAL the tolerances were wrong somewhere! Gary
__________________
I am usually relatively happy------Gary
super flat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 02:09 PM   #116
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 5,113
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Could be just the angle and the lighting, but those bores sure do look shiney/smooth. Did the last "rebuilder" hone the cylinders the last time around? Sure do hope the proper rod caps end-up back on their respective rods. Pictures sure make one wonder if he knew anything about setting-up floating bearings. DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


I may not be the BEST, but I'll do 'til he gets here!




V8COOPMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 02:15 PM   #117
Admiral
Senior Member
 
Admiral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Oakland County, Michigan
Posts: 478
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Oh man, that's some scary stuff! I hope your rebuilder can get Old Henry back on the road quickly.
Admiral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 02:19 PM   #118
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by super flat View Post
Split bearings are NOT NORMAL the tolerances were wrong somewhere! Gary
That is Paul's diagnosis of the bearing failure. He keeps emphasizing how critical the clearances are for floating bearings and how any extra gap can cause them to fail prematurely. That's why he's putting so much effort into measuring, truing, and sizing all bearings and surfaces.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 03:21 PM   #119
JM 35 Sedan
Senior Member
 
JM 35 Sedan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Near Rising Sun, Maryland
Posts: 9,630
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by super flat View Post
Henry, I would let the rebuilder get all the parts, if you carry them in there is no way he can guarantee them. Good luck, Gary
Right on! Let the man who knows how to build the engine get the best bearings that he can find for the job. Why nickel and dime this and possibly have something go wrong again. Same thing with the oil pump. Let him get a quality (USA made if possible) oil pump and test it before it goes in the engine. JMO
__________________
John

"Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts". Albert Einstein
JM 35 Sedan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 04:06 PM   #120
Bob C
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: So Cal
Posts: 6,048
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I agree with the others, let the builder get the parts.

Bob
Bob C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 04:12 PM   #121
flatford8
Senior Member
 
flatford8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lyman,ME.
Posts: 1,201
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan View Post
Right on! Let the man who knows how to build the engine get the best bearings that he can find for the job. Why nickel and dime this and possibly have something go wrong again. Same thing with the oil pump. Let him get a quality (USA made if possible) oil pump and test it before it goes in the engine. JMO
Ya...what he said !!!!
__________________
I'm thinkin' about crankin'
My ragged ol' truck up
and haulin' myself into town.
Billy Joe Shaver
flatford8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 04:32 PM   #122
bobH
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: so cal, placerville, vegas
Posts: 985
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

There's gotta be an explanation for all the material in the pan. Does the volume in the pan approximate what is missing from the bearings ? If not, keep looking. JMHO
bobH is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 09-11-2014, 05:09 PM   #123
B-O-B
Senior Member
 
B-O-B's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ft Mohave,Az
Posts: 1,699
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I agree on having the builder source the parts. That should something happen he cannot tell you that there is no warranty as he did not get the parts. had that happen when building this house. I was going to buy the plumbing fixtures & the plumber told me he could not warranty them. Sure enough he dropped the double cast iron porcelain sink & chipped it. He had to purchase a new one & it was not very cheap.
You might also to ask your builder if those rods need reconditioned.
B-O-B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 05:41 PM   #124
Ronnie
Senior Member
 
Ronnie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Canada Where it snows
Posts: 1,908
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN View Post
Could be just the angle and the lighting, but those bores sure do look shiney/smooth. Did the last "rebuilder" hone the cylinders the last time around? Sure do hope the proper rod caps end-up back on their respective rods. Pictures sure make one wonder if he knew anything about setting-up floating bearings. DD

Those aren't the cyl walls the piston is down the hole just looks like cyl walls its the piston skirt.

R
Ronnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 06:37 PM   #125
Bob C
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: So Cal
Posts: 6,048
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie View Post
Those aren't the cyl walls the piston is down the hole just looks like cyl walls its the piston skirt.

R
To me it looks like the bottom of the skirts are about 2" up
from the bottom of the cylinders.

Bob
Bob C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 07:06 PM   #126
Ronnie
Senior Member
 
Ronnie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Canada Where it snows
Posts: 1,908
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Look again the left hand piston is up the hole about 3/8"The Rh piston is flush with the bottom of the bore.

R
Ronnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 07:47 PM   #127
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 11,809
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Might be a mirror reflection in the polished cylinder wall? Look where the end of the rod is, seems up a long way for the piston to be at the bottom of a stroke, but may just be the camera angle.
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 09:14 PM   #128
JM 35 Sedan
Senior Member
 
JM 35 Sedan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Near Rising Sun, Maryland
Posts: 9,630
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

It's difficult to tell exactly what we are seeing of the pistons from the bottom of the cylinders. As I look at the bottom of those pistons, it appears to me that pieces of the skirts are broken off. It also looks like some reflections are confusing the picture.
__________________
John

"Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts". Albert Einstein
JM 35 Sedan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 09:38 PM   #129
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by B-O-B View Post
I agree on having the builder source the parts. That should something happen he cannot tell you that there is no warranty as he did not get the parts. had that happen when building this house. I was going to buy the plumbing fixtures & the plumber told me he could not warranty them. Sure enough he dropped the double cast iron porcelain sink & chipped it. He had to purchase a new one & it was not very cheap.
You might also to ask your builder if those rods need reconditioned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flatford8 View Post
Ya...what he said !!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob C View Post
I agree with the others, let the builder get the parts.

Bob
Quote:
Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan View Post
Right on! Let the man who knows how to build the engine get the best bearings that he can find for the job. Why nickel and dime this and possibly have something go wrong again. Same thing with the oil pump. Let him get a quality (USA made if possible) oil pump and test it before it goes in the engine. JMO
Quote:
Originally Posted by super flat View Post
Henry, I would let the rebuilder get all the parts, if you carry them in there is no way he can guarantee them. Good luck, Gary
Agreed. I'll let him get the parts. I know he's already had discussions with VanPelt.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 09:41 PM   #130
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan View Post
It's difficult to tell exactly what we are seeing of the pistons from the bottom of the cylinders. As I look at the bottom of those pistons, it appears to me that pieces of the skirts are broken off. It also looks like some reflections are confusing the picture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSeery View Post
Might be a mirror reflection in the polished cylinder wall? Look where the end of the rod is, seems up a long way for the piston to be at the bottom of a stroke, but may just be the camera angle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie View Post
Look again the left hand piston is up the hole about 3/8"The Rh piston is flush with the bottom of the bore.

R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob C View Post
To me it looks like the bottom of the skirts are about 2" up
from the bottom of the cylinders.

Bob
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie View Post
Those aren't the cyl walls the piston is down the hole just looks like cyl walls its the piston skirt.

R
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN View Post
Could be just the angle and the lighting, but those bores sure do look shiney/smooth. Did the last "rebuilder" hone the cylinders the last time around? Sure do hope the proper rod caps end-up back on their respective rods. Pictures sure make one wonder if he knew anything about setting-up floating bearings. DD
The flash on the camera reflecting on the cylinder walls really is confusing.
The pistons are well down in the cylinders as is indicated by how far in the connecting rods are.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 09:44 PM   #131
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobH View Post
There's gotta be an explanation for all the material in the pan. Does the volume in the pan approximate what is missing from the bearings ? If not, keep looking. JMHO
The volume of the material in the oil pan far exceeds what could have come off of the busted up bearing. I expect the full tear down may well reveal something else gone pretty bad.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 09:52 PM   #132
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 11,809
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I'm betting the pan material is bearing material and nothing else. It can look like a lot in thin sheets. Unless it's partly steel, that's about all it could be. You have the main bearing to look at, with that much stuff in the oil passages it most likely damaged the main bearings also.
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 09:55 PM   #133
4tford
Senior Member
 
4tford's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Regina Canada
Posts: 1,313
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I played with the pic a bit and this seems to show the piston location better
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSC00684-R_zpscdc3ad43.jpg (54.3 KB, 129 views)
4tford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 10:03 PM   #134
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 11,809
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Those cylinders walls are strange, don't think I've ever seen walls that polished, look like mirrors.
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2014, 10:18 PM   #135
4tford
Senior Member
 
4tford's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Regina Canada
Posts: 1,313
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

You can only see 1/4" of wall on the left piston and none on the right
4tford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2014, 08:47 AM   #136
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I'm not sure what the big interest is in figuring out how far down the cylinder those pistons are but here's the bigger picture that was cropped to that one that shows the other cylinders and how far down the pistons were. The ones seen in the cylinders were also that far in, that is, way in.

__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2014, 08:54 AM   #137
Admiral
Senior Member
 
Admiral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Oakland County, Michigan
Posts: 478
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Aside from the devastating bearing carnage is the rest of the engine ok? Were any of the rods harmed? Did the block sustain any damage?
Admiral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2014, 08:58 AM   #138
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Don't know of any other damage, yet.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2014, 09:01 AM   #139
Ol' Ron
Senior Member
 
Ol' Ron's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chester Vt
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I'd like to recommend a full flow oil system on the next rebuild, like the early Canadian engines. I do that to all my engines. Kinda keeps the chunks out of the bearings.
Ol' Ron is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2014, 09:20 AM   #140
the cooch
Member
 
the cooch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Posts: 82
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Really happy to see that Craig's engine is being handled properly, and locally. My only intention/offer was to show up and install an already running (on a stand) '47 motor I almost purchased for myself recently. From the start I insisted "Old Henry's" motor needed to be seen by a machinist or go to a shop, not any more tinkers or hobby builders like myself! First thing I asked was about the EV8 club in his neck o' the woods- I just couldn't fathom that no one in his area was able to help -hooray early v8 club! I was about to start one heck of a rescue thread though, if I made a road trip out there with an engine, and a hoist and pulled the swap. Good luck, god speed and keep those trip photos coming! -Chris
the cooch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2014, 09:33 AM   #141
TomO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 329
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

The last time I saw a bearing break like that, the re-builder tried to file the rod cap to get the correct clearance. The egg shaped hole puts quite a train on the bearing.
__________________
TomO
TomO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2014, 11:16 AM   #142
Kube
Senior Member
 
Kube's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 4,992
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomO View Post
The last time I saw a bearing break like that, the re-builder tried to file the rod cap to get the correct clearance. The egg shaped hole puts quite a train on the bearing.
Tom, It appears that OlHenry has finally seen his "rebuilder" for what he is, a "hack". Most of us knew this a long time ago. Just because a guy has been "rebuilding" engines for decades does not mean he has the necessary talents to do so correctly.
I would not be surprised if a new block, etc. will be required in this instance. I simply can't imagine there's much remaining to work with on this one.
__________________
"Imagination is a crutch used by those who lack knowledge and intelligence ."
B
. Franklin
Kube is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 09-12-2014, 11:53 AM   #143
prpmmp
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: west grove Pa.
Posts: 218
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

What could have caused this?? Would it show up in oil changes??,noise?? It seemed it was driven quite abit, did it just eat itself up from bad machine work?? Pete
prpmmp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2014, 12:08 PM   #144
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I have no complaints whatsoever about previous work on my engine. I've driven this engine 50,000 very hard miles since those bearings were installed and have no reason to believe that there was any deficiency in previous work that caused this. The builder that installed them worked 40 years as a machinist in a diesel engine shop and was meticulous about clearances. He came highly recommended from several around the country including just recently by other Fordbarners. But, alas, he seems to have finally retired as he said he was going to after my 2008 rebuild.

Things just wear out, unfortunately. It's the natural consequence and price of having as much fun as I have with my car.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness

Last edited by Old Henry; 09-12-2014 at 12:39 PM.
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2014, 12:22 PM   #145
Vic Piano
Senior Member
 
Vic Piano's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Odessa, FL
Posts: 7,493
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Good for you Prof! Build em, drive the h_ _ l out of em, repeat... LOL That's what Flatheads are for... At least in my book.
__________________
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
Vic Piano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2014, 12:54 PM   #146
super flat
Senior Member
 
super flat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: west bend wi
Posts: 291
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Henry View Post
I have no complaints whatsoever about previous work on my engine. I've driven this engine 50,000 very hard miles since those bearings were installed and have no reason to believe that there was any deficiency in previous work that caused this. The builder that installed them worked 40 years as a machinist in a diesel engine shop and was meticulous about clearances. He came highly recommended from several around the country including just recently by other Fordbarners. But, alas, he seems to have finally retired as he said he was going to after my 2008 rebuild.

Things just wear out, unfortunately. It's the natural consequence and price of having as much fun as I have with my car.
Henry, I think what you do with your car is great, but there was a mistake made on your engine your damage is not normal ware. I sincerely hope your next rebuild goes much better! Gary
__________________
I am usually relatively happy------Gary
super flat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2014, 12:55 PM   #147
Mike51Merc
Senior Member
 
Mike51Merc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,531
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Henry View Post
Things just wear out, unfortunately. It's the natural consequence and price of having as much fun as I have with my car.
I agree that 50,000 miles is a decent service run, but that damage is more than just normal wear. Something let go in a big way to eat up those bearings like that.
Mike51Merc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2014, 01:13 PM   #148
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 5,113
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Henry View Post
I have no complaints whatsoever about previous work on my engine. I've driven this engine 50,000 very hard miles since those bearings were installed and have no reason to believe that there was any deficiency in previous work that caused this. Things just wear out unfortunately. It's the natural consequence and price of having as much fun as I have with my car.
The unfortunate reality here is that your pictures don't show the results of "worn-out"...your pictures show continued, hammered-carnage. Driving up and down some dirt roads does not constitute "very hard miles" like you seem to think. The VERY HARD miles you racked-up, (and the ones that caused the "natural consequences" of such as shown in your pictures) were the miles you continued to hammer on it while ignoring the very first indications of a problem. I agree with KUBE and a couple of others...that bearing pair was wrong from the start. It's only by the grace of God that you didn't grenade the block and crank. Good luck! DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


I may not be the BEST, but I'll do 'til he gets here!




V8COOPMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2014, 02:21 PM   #149
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike51Merc View Post
I agree that 50,000 miles is a decent service run, but that damage is more than just normal wear. Something let go in a big way to eat up those bearings like that.
Could have just been a defective bearing like my piston that came apart in spite of the builder's perfect assembly. Even the best mechanics can't prevent that. I don't think every mechanical failure can be blamed on human error. It just happens. That's why I've asked about recommendations for bearings.

Even though I'm going to let Paul order the parts, he seems to be open to any input I want to give him about things even though he may not act upon it. So, I'd still like to get anyone's recommendations of brands and sources for bearings so I can tell him in case he wants to check it out.

Any suggestions?
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness

Last edited by Old Henry; 09-12-2014 at 02:44 PM.
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2014, 02:24 PM   #150
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by super flat View Post
Henry, I think what you do with your car is great, but there was a mistake made on your engine your damage is not normal ware. I sincerely hope your next rebuild goes much better! Gary
So do I. We'll see how it goes. Maybe better. Maybe worse. One can't tell without actually driving the engine 50,000 miles. But, oh, the fun of it.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness

Last edited by Old Henry; 09-12-2014 at 02:45 PM.
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2014, 03:02 PM   #151
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Lest anyone think that the "right mechanic" can get a flathead to last forever, even Ford didn't believe that. Here is the entry in the repair manual just before the instructions for removing the engine. Don't know how "used" an engine would have to be to get replaced but they weren't made to last forever.

__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2014, 04:50 PM   #152
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 5,113
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Henry View Post
Lest anyone think that the "right mechanic" can get a flathead to last forever, even Ford didn't believe that. Here is the entry in the repair manual just before the instructions for removing the engine. Don't know how "used" an engine would have to be to get replaced but they weren't made to last forever.
Is there ANYONE out there in FordBarn land with a better command of the English language than I apparently have, who can possibly better-explain that the engine in question did not WEAR OUT? Portions of THIS engine have self-destructed (more than once now)........as a result of maybe some badly-chosen parts, questionable assembly methods, lack of attention to cleanliness, or possibly a combination of all of the above. Flatheads don't just fall apart into tiny pieces at 30K or 50K miles. I hope your new guy really has the knowledge, experience and character commensurate with properly building a genuine Ford flathead engine. Once again, good luck! DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


I may not be the BEST, but I'll do 'til he gets here!




V8COOPMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2014, 06:13 PM   #153
Binx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Gloucester VA
Posts: 1,042
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

The weird mad-scientist side of my brain tells me the bearing failure was due to harmonics traveling through the crank from back-to-front. Old Henry drove with a bad u-joint for some time and on a downhill deceleration, that sends the stresses forward to the end of the line. Case in point: I know a guy who kept having his Toyota front pulley (harmonic type) come loose and ruin the key. No symptoms. Turns out his flywheel was loose. I've seen bearing fatigue like this isolated to one or two bearings but the cause was usually long-term detonation. Old Henry was always careful with his timing and jetting.

Lonnie
Binx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2014, 06:36 PM   #154
Marv
Senior Member
 
Marv's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 874
Red face Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Henry View Post
Could have just been a defective bearing like my piston that came apart in spite of the builder's perfect assembly. Even the best mechanics can't prevent that. I don't think every mechanical failure can be blamed on human error. It just happens. That's why I've asked about recommendations for bearings.

Even though I'm going to let Paul order the parts, he seems to be open to any input I want to give him about things even though he may not act upon it. So, I'd still like to get anyone's recommendations of brands and sources for bearings so I can tell him in case he wants to check it out.

Any suggestions?
I always preferred Clevite 77 inserts which i think is now called Michigan 77. I have used them in my own engines that i knew needed the crank turned to be perfect and i ran them till the rings were wore out, and they never came apart. I also preferred Hsting steel rings.
Marv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2014, 09:41 PM   #155
flatjack9
Senior Member
 
flatjack9's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oshkosh, Wi
Posts: 3,289
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

As far as bearings go, I'd try to find some old Ford cadmium-silver bearings.
flatjack9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2014, 10:31 PM   #156
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Finally, some helpful parts recommendations.

That's all I was really looking for.

I'll pass those on to Paul in case he hasn't heard about them.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2014, 12:42 AM   #157
Mr 42
Senior Member
 
Mr 42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Sweden
Posts: 368
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I Agree something caused this engine to disintegrate its not Worn out in any way.


This engine needs to come completely apart,remove the cam bearings and front oil plug. And sent of to be cleaned properly.
The clean out all oil channels.
The Crank oil channels need to be cleaned to and the oilpump replaced, or disassembled and cleaned.
One flake, is all its need to be in this situation again.
And triple check the crank roundness and dimensions, same goes with the rods

The engine must be so clean so You should be able to eat of it before you assemble it.

Regarding the clutch, it looks that it could be badly adjusted so it slipped during normal driving, or that the driver rested his foot on the clutch pedal causing the clutch to slip.
Mr 42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2014, 07:20 AM   #158
don-wi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 150
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I would talk to the people who are going to grind the crank what they prefer you use for bearings. I would consider having the connecting rods re-sized if it was my engine.
don-wi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2014, 07:38 AM   #159
Kube
Senior Member
 
Kube's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 4,992
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by don-wi View Post
I would talk to the people who are going to grind the crank what they prefer you use for bearings. I would consider having the connecting rods re-sized if it was my engine.
Consider? The way the rods were obviously hammering, it would not be a "consideration". At this point, it is a MUST.
__________________
"Imagination is a crutch used by those who lack knowledge and intelligence ."
B
. Franklin
Kube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2014, 08:15 AM   #160
Marv
Senior Member
 
Marv's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 874
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I think that any short cuts you may consider, will put you in the same shape you are now in, with more money wasted. I hate to see this considering the way you like to drive the old girl.
Marv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2014, 07:47 PM   #161
OLD...BILL
Senior Member
 
OLD...BILL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Northern California,coast
Posts: 552
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

The guy grinding the crank, should be the one to order the bearings , and I would sure be talking to him or someone about line boring the mains, is this the same block and a different crank, or same re-ground I've lost track ?? and from the looks of the flywheel I would be looking at the pilot bearing again?? something to thing about..... OLD.....BILL
OLD...BILL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2014, 08:14 PM   #162
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD...BILL View Post
The guy grinding the crank, should be the one to order the bearings , and I would sure be talking to him or someone about line boring the mains, is this the same block and a different crank, or same re-ground I've lost track ?? and from the looks of the flywheel I would be looking at the pilot bearing again?? something to thing about..... OLD.....BILL
Don't know what "line boring the mains" means. Hopefully Paul knows.
The crank going back in is the original that came with the engine when it was new and has never been ground. The pilot bearing in the flywheel is a ball bearing, not just a sleeve/bushing. Wouldn't hurt to replace it if I can find one. The ones I've found are just the sleeve/bushing kind.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 09-13-2014, 08:52 PM   #163
Tinker
Senior Member
 
Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: MN
Posts: 4,163
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Line boring is done to to true the surface that travel in a line. Like the crank or the cam. Fairly common practice and is certainly necessary for a basic rebuild.

Replace the pilot bearing if necessary, hey it's there and a cheap part, that flywheel is spent for the kind of driving you do.

Looks like it is going in the right direction. But what do I know and it's just my opinion
Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2014, 07:37 AM   #164
Kube
Senior Member
 
Kube's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 4,992
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Henry View Post
Don't know what "line boring the mains" means. Hopefully Paul knows.
The crank going back in is the original that came with the engine when it was new and has never been ground. The pilot bearing in the flywheel is a ball bearing, not just a sleeve/bushing. Wouldn't hurt to replace it if I can find one. The ones I've found are just the sleeve/bushing kind.
Within your response is at least one huge clue as to why your engine came apart. You'd told us in the past this particular engine was "rebuilt" twice. You've also been proud (rightly so) to inform us that you've driven a kajillion miles on it.
Now you tell us the crank has never been ground? Um Henry, that engine was NEVER rebuilt. Installing new bearings against an old crank is a certain recipe for disaster. I can only imagine what else was "rebuilt" in such poor fashion.
The fact you got as many miles out of that engine was a true blessing.

I am happy to know you have finally decided to take this engine to a guy that apparently actually knows what he is doing.
Line boring may not be necessary as these old Ford flat head engines can handle a lot of punishment. However, it is certainly something I'd check during the preliminary inspection. Not only does it assure the crank and cam are running on a single TRUE plane, it should also make that plane perpendicular to the lifter & piston bores.
I can almost guarantee the rods will need to be reconditioned. If they are still round, well, it would be a miracle.
As others have advised, be 100% certain that block is thoroughly cleaned prior to reassembly. A true rebuilder will know this and make certain cleanliness is paramount. It is perhaps as important (or nearly so) as measuring ACCURATELY and fitting parts CORRECTLY.
__________________
"Imagination is a crutch used by those who lack knowledge and intelligence ."
B
. Franklin
Kube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2014, 10:08 AM   #165
Ross F-1
Senior Member
 
Ross F-1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: NM
Posts: 2,142
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kube View Post
Within your response is at least one huge clue as to why your engine came apart. You'd told us in the past this particular engine was "rebuilt" twice. You've also been proud (rightly so) to inform us that you've driven a kajillion miles on it.
Now you tell us the crank has never been ground? Um Henry, that engine was NEVER rebuilt. Installing new bearings against an old crank is a certain recipe for disaster. I can only imagine what else was "rebuilt" in such poor fashion......
From Post #110 by Old Henry:

Quote:
Paul took the whole crankshaft out to check it for wear. It turns out that the bearing surfaces need turning again but if that is done bearings are no longer available to fit it. In other words, the crankshaft is worn out and shouldn't be used any more. That was the bad news.

The good news is that I still have the original crankshaft for that engine that has never been worked and has its original surfaces. Paul was a bit shocked when I brought it in. The surfaces measured 1 thousandth wear is all, plenty of surface to clean up and fit with new bearings for many more miles to come.
__________________
'52 F-1, EAB flathead
Ross F-1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2014, 12:08 PM   #166
Mart
Senior Member
 
Mart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 5,373
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I think the original (unground) crank that Craig is referring to was left out when the engine was first rebuilt.
Mart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2014, 01:45 PM   #167
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Just to clarify the history of my engine as I understand it as there seems to be some confusion or misunderstanding about it.

Car was bought in 1959 with unknown history and was driven only a mile or two a day until 1975 when I parked it by Mom's house where it sat for 31 years.

In 2006 I towed it to my house to begin a minimal restoration limited to getting it running, pass safety inspection and licensed, painted and reupholstered.

9 days later, after only changing the oil, replacing the battery and cables and starter solenoid and putting an acceleration pump in the carburetor we started it up and drove it for 10,000 miles before having it rebuilt in October 2009. (Here's the movie of starting it up that has had just short of one million views on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY389S_KUjs)

When the rebuilder opened up the engine he found everything original except a couple of valves that had been replaced. The bearings had the original date of manufacture on them - August 1947. The crank pulley was loose on the front end of the crank so he decided to replace the crank with another used one that he machined and replaced all bearings when rebuilding (I still have those original bearings and crank). He also informed me that I had been running the battery hooked up backwards (I wondered why my ammeter read backwards) and that my carburetor was not the original for the engine as it was a Stomberg 97 last used in 1937.

He machined all surfaces and replaced all pistons, rings, bearings, valves, and I don't know what else as well as rebuilding the transmission and drive-line.

I kept everything that came out of the engine as I've saved everything that's ever come off of the car for historical purposes.

In May 2013, after driving 30,000 miles the #3 piston came apart. (Story here: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=104413) I took it back to the same builder who redid the whole top end including sleeving piston #3 and boring all pistons out to a larger size so he could put in all new larger pistons. He also replaced the valves and split valve guides with later solid ones. I don't know that he did anything with the bottom end as far as remachining any bearing surfaces nor replacing bearings. I'm pretty sure that he didn't since they were all still OK.

The rest of the story is this thread with the bearing problem now after another 20,000 miles, total of 50,000 since first rebuild.

Hope this helps resolve some confusion.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness

Last edited by Old Henry; 09-14-2014 at 02:45 PM.
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2014, 02:55 PM   #168
bobH
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: so cal, placerville, vegas
Posts: 985
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Another thing to add to Kube's 'list'... I've never found in all of Craig's posts that the engine was ever balanced. I can't imagine, the way he drives it, WHY? Especially when it's considered that the crank came from one source, the rods source not mentioned, and the pistons changed at least twice. Maybe I missed this detail?? JMHO
(AND, I'm sure price is not an issue. I recently had a 59 engine balanced, and cost was insignificant, compared to the overall engine cost.) Again, JMHO
bobH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2014, 03:15 PM   #169
Andy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Kerrville, Tx
Posts: 2,188
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I had my rotating assy balanced and they ruined everything. I had the repacement parts balanced also. The guy wanted to balance the rods by adding washers. I recovered the parts and went to a third place. The engine is not as smooth as my unbalanced one. These engines do not turn ten grand and the factory balance is great. The only thing I would do is check the rods and match the weights if way off. Buy a digital scale at HF and weigh the rods and pistons yourself.
Andy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2014, 03:40 PM   #170
Kube
Senior Member
 
Kube's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 4,992
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobH View Post
Another thing to add to Kube's 'list'... I've never found in all of Craig's posts that the engine was ever balanced. I can't imagine, the way he drives it, WHY? Especially when it's considered that the crank came from one source, the rods source not mentioned, and the pistons changed at least twice. Maybe I missed this detail?? JMHO
(AND, I'm sure price is not an issue. I recently had a 59 engine balanced, and cost was insignificant, compared to the overall engine cost.) Again, JMHO
Balancing should at the very least be checked to see if it is necessary. Ford did a pretty darn good job on these engines when they were first assembled. the problem is most engines have had at least some work done on them since "day #1".
If I understand henry's post correctly, one cylinder was sleeved and the remaining seven were bored. Anyone that has good experience building engines knows this is a big no-no.
__________________
"Imagination is a crutch used by those who lack knowledge and intelligence ."
B
. Franklin
Kube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2014, 03:41 PM   #171
Kube
Senior Member
 
Kube's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 4,992
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I had my rotating assy balanced and they ruined everything. I had the repacement parts balanced also. The guy wanted to balance the rods by adding washers. I recovered the parts and went to a third place. The engine is not as smooth as my unbalanced one. These engines do not turn ten grand and the factory balance is great. The only thing I would do is check the rods and match the weights if way off. Buy a digital scale at HF and weigh the rods and pistons yourself.
Andy, If they ruined everything, it is apparent they did not know what they were doing.
__________________
"Imagination is a crutch used by those who lack knowledge and intelligence ."
B
. Franklin
Kube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2014, 03:52 PM   #172
Ronnie
Senior Member
 
Ronnie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Canada Where it snows
Posts: 1,908
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kube View Post
Balancing should at the very least be checked to see if it is necessary. Ford did a pretty darn good job on these engines when they were first assembled. the problem is most engines have had at least some work done on them since "day #1".
If I understand henry's post correctly, one cylinder was sleeved and the remaining seven were bored. Anyone that has good experience building engines knows this is a big no-no.
What is not good with one sleeve?

R
Ronnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2014, 04:39 PM   #173
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I'm not sure exactly how it works but the same size of pistons went into all cylinders so I'm assuming that the one that needed the sleeve was bored slightly larger to fit the sleeve in. No problems now for 20,000 miles so far.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2014, 06:15 PM   #174
bobH
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: so cal, placerville, vegas
Posts: 985
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kube View Post
Balancing should at the very least be checked to see if it is necessary. Ford did a pretty darn good job on these engines when they were first assembled. the problem is most engines have had at least some work done on them since "day #1".
If I understand henry's post correctly, one cylinder was sleeved and the remaining seven were bored. Anyone that has good experience building engines knows this is a big no-no.
Back in the 'day', I did some checking on at least two flatheads that I had. I used the 'thread' method to check 'big-ends', then 'total'. Pistons were matched to 'originals', as I have never found what stock was, for 46-48 59 engines. This seemed to work ok, for the street engines that they were. If there is a published number for 46-48 pistons, I'd like to know it.
Regarding sleeves... sometimes you just 'have to'. Seems to me, a properly installed sleeve works ok in a street engine. On the flip side of this comment, I've seen a few examples of sleeves not done correctly. Old posts on this board have explained properly installed sleeves. One example of 'bad' sleeves, I posted awhile back about an 8BA engine that appeared to have been assembled with a near-standard piston in what appeared to be a 3 3/8 bore. And, it came in as a running engine. It turned out, after disassembly, it was found that cylinder HAD a sleeve, and the remains of that sleeve were in pieces in the pan. Situations as this give a bad name to sleeves.
bobH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2014, 07:06 PM   #175
Kube
Senior Member
 
Kube's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 4,992
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Henry View Post
I'm not sure exactly how it works but the same size of pistons went into all cylinders so I'm assuming that the one that needed the sleeve was bored slightly larger to fit the sleeve in. No problems now for 20,000 miles so far.
If he bored that sleeved cylinder to match the others, that's a good thing.
I have seen engines wherein only one or two cylinders were sleeved and the bore(s) were not matched to the others.
__________________
"Imagination is a crutch used by those who lack knowledge and intelligence ."
B
. Franklin
Kube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2014, 07:07 PM   #176
Kube
Senior Member
 
Kube's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 4,992
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie View Post
What is not good with one sleeve?

R
Not a thing as long as ALL the bores are of the same diameter.
__________________
"Imagination is a crutch used by those who lack knowledge and intelligence ."
B
. Franklin
Kube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2014, 07:50 PM   #177
Ronnie
Senior Member
 
Ronnie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Canada Where it snows
Posts: 1,908
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I agree Henry's post is quite vague. I have done many sleeves and couldn't see your rational. Yes they should all have the same finished bore size.Your statement holds true if the bores differ.Can be done but is a non acceptable repair scheme.

R
Ronnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2014, 12:52 AM   #178
Mike B
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oakdale,Ca
Posts: 1,323
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kube View Post
Not a thing as long as ALL the bores are of the same diameter.
I might be off base, but who would take and engine in to get rebuilt, and be told:

We need to sleeve a hole"

Okay...

Then the shop would order 7 pistons at ones size, and one at another?

Have you actually seen this?...I'd be extremely surprised...again...talking shop work, not when Bubba took it in and used what he had.

And realistically, what would a 1/2 cube of inches, and .01 of compression, affect the performance of an engine like a FH V8?

My personal opinion, is if I had a 60 over block and a standard sleeve size in a hole,,,no one could tell a bit of difference in a street build.
Mike B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2014, 04:48 AM   #179
dwaynec
Senior Member
 
dwaynec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Davenport, IA
Posts: 161
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

My take on this is that if different sized pistons are used the engine will be out of balance.
__________________
Dwayne
dwaynec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2014, 06:44 AM   #180
jimTN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Powell, TN
Posts: 1,873
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

It used to be common to find a tagged remanufactured engine with different size bores. If H's engine had one bore sleaved then I would guess the bad piston or a piston pin cut into the cyl wall on thay cyl. I have never seen so called cadium bearings break apart like his did, what I have seen is a lot of wear an a spray of molten metal on the crank and block sides.
The bronze inserts would wear and turn a crank blue from heat. For those that do not know, there were two types of full floating bearings for flathead v8s, one was a soft material commonly called cadium silver and the other was a harder material that appeared to be bronze.
jimTN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2014, 07:52 AM   #181
Kube
Senior Member
 
Kube's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 4,992
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike B View Post
I might be off base, but who would take and engine in to get rebuilt, and be told:

We need to sleeve a hole"

Okay...

Then the shop would order 7 pistons at ones size, and one at another?

Have you actually seen this?...I'd be extremely surprised...again...talking shop work, not when Bubba took it in and used what he had.

And realistically, what would a 1/2 cube of inches, and .01 of compression, affect the performance of an engine like a FH V8?

My personal opinion, is if I had a 60 over block and a standard sleeve size in a hole,,,no one could tell a bit of difference in a street build.
Actually this method is all too common. Even today engines rebuilt by Jasper, a very large corporation, does this as a matter of course. They go the "whatever is cheaper" method.

In a flathead it may not make a huge difference but it will make a difference.
I suppose it all boils down to doing a job correctly or doing it half a--ed.
__________________
"Imagination is a crutch used by those who lack knowledge and intelligence ."
B
. Franklin
Kube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2014, 07:56 AM   #182
sidevalve8ba
Senior Member
 
sidevalve8ba's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Harrisonburg, VA
Posts: 648
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Some mechanics are fast, others half-fast.
sidevalve8ba is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 09-15-2014, 09:01 AM   #183
40cpe
Senior Member
 
40cpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Star, MS
Posts: 3,094
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I would be more concerned about the imbalance created by different sized pistons. I don't think anyone who would bore just one hole would balance it.
40cpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2014, 09:47 AM   #184
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimTN View Post
If H's engine had one bore sleaved then I would guess the bad piston or a piston pin cut into the cyl wall on thay cyl.
It was a bit more than just a little scrape. This was my piston that caused the cylinder wall damage. Sleeving was the only option.



And, if those piston fragments weren't enough, how about this splintered wrist pin jammed against the cylinder wall so hard that the connecting rod was bent?


Full story here: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=104413
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness

Last edited by Old Henry; 09-15-2014 at 10:11 AM.
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2014, 10:33 AM   #185
Mike B
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oakdale,Ca
Posts: 1,323
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kube View Post
Actually this method is all too common. Even today engines rebuilt by Jasper, a very large corporation, does this as a matter of course. They go the "whatever is cheaper" method.

I see your point, I suppose a large rebuilding house could save a buck or two per rebuild and over the course of time it would add up to some decent profit.

Sad thing.
Mike B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2014, 10:36 AM   #186
bobH
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: so cal, placerville, vegas
Posts: 985
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Regarding different size pistons, and weights... it's been my experience that the piston suppliers I've used supply their pistons to the ORIGINAL weight, no matter the size. This has been for near-stock sizes, say up to about 60 or 80.
Regarding the bent rod... now we see that at least one rod was likely replaced. I hope its weight was compared to the other 7.
Side observation/comment...this engine has had at least two recent 'rebuilds', and now going for a 3rd. And I see that a full-floater crank is still being used. I'm a little surprised, as I'd have ditched that crank and rods, at least two rebuilds back. I guess that's just me. I'd at least have an 8BA crank, but more likely a Merc or aftermarket crank. If cost were a factor (which at this point I doubt) I'd go for the 8BA, as my builder/machine shop guy hands them out for free. JMHO
bobH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2014, 11:37 AM   #187
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Tell me more about the difference between the 59A crank and the 8BA crank please. I know nothing.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2014, 12:41 PM   #188
bobH
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: so cal, placerville, vegas
Posts: 985
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

59A crank uses full-floating rod bearings, as (most) all 32-48's have. Bearings cost more, and some 'talent' is required to properly fit them (so they will 'float'). 8BA crank uses rods with 'locked' bearing inserts, which has been the common 'industry-standard' from 1949 forward (regardless of make). Insert bearings cost less, and are generally easier to install, requiring less talent (assuming the machinist does a proper job). A few 59A engines came originally equipped with 8BA rods and crank, as well as 8BA valve assemblies. (My 47 has one of these 59A engines - probably a 59A replacement engine.)
Your engine is partway there, as you indicated in post 167 that you probably have 8BA valve assemblies.
It would be logical, at least to me, to add the 8BA rods and crank, or maybe a Merc crank if you want a few more inches.
All this info is available in old posts, and I believe, in Ron's book.
The info i've posted here, pretty much goes out the window, if you select a stroke larger than 4.0 (Merc). I think larger strokes require floating rod bearings.
bobH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2014, 12:57 PM   #189
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Thanks for the info on the 8BA crank and bearings.
Other than being cheaper to buy and easier to install, do the locked bearings last any longer? It wouldn't seem that they would since all the wear is only on one side instead of dividing it between two sides.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2014, 02:16 PM   #190
bobH
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: so cal, placerville, vegas
Posts: 985
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Some of us believe that floaters can last a long time, maybe approaching 'forever'. I think Ron posted recently about re-using old, original, floaters. Of course, he took a little flak over the comment. I have one friend, over 85, who has a bucket of old, original, floaters, that he routinely uses in his own engines. I've known this person for nearly 20 years, and he has never had one of his 'recycled' engines fail. (I'm talking stockers, no race/hot rods.) JMO
(There is still the puzzle of what went south in your engine. Where did all the material in the pan come from? Hope I didn't miss a post. Your bearings don't appear to be the cause of the problem - only the result of another problem.) JMO

Last edited by bobH; 09-15-2014 at 02:23 PM.
bobH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2014, 02:43 PM   #191
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobH View Post
There is still the puzzle of what went south in your engine. Where did all the material in the pan come from? Hope I didn't miss a post. Your bearings don't appear to be the cause of the problem - only the result of another problem. JMO
Agreed. I'm still wondering about that too.
It may well be something as mysterious as the "harmonic" thing Binx talked about in #153. If so, and it was caused by the bad U-joint, hopefully that won't be repeated.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness

Last edited by Old Henry; 09-15-2014 at 03:08 PM.
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2014, 04:48 PM   #192
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,603
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Got the dip stick boss in so took it down to Paul and to check status.
He has delivered the engine to the machinist who checked it out and didn't find any glaring problems with anything as far as the block went. Cylinders were fine as well as pistons, etc. He's going to remove the cam shaft and valves and flush it all out then reinstall them. He's also going to machine the crank then check the fit of the rods and resize them if necessary. Then he'll order the bearings to make sure to get the right ones and fit.

In discussing the source of all of the metal in the oil pan with Paul, he showed me how all of the bearings were totally devoid of their top layer of silver metal on both sides which would account for all of the silver pieces in the oil pan. He also expressed his opinion again that the reason all of the bearings wore out was because the clearances of them were not right.

Knowing the difference between the 59A and 8BA cranks he didn't think there was any reason to change as long as the clearances on the 59A crank were right.

Hopefully it all gets just right this time and lasts much longer.

We'll see.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2014, 05:02 PM   #193
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 5,113
Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

[QUOTE=Old Henry;946395]

He also expressed his opinion again that the reason all of the bearings wore out was because the clearances of them were not right.
QUOTE]

So WHO might have been responsible for getting those clearances "right".....TWICE? DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


I may not be the BEST, but I'll do 'til he gets here!




V8COOPMAN is offline   Reply With Quote