ford battery

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Often times it seems easy to play Devil's Advocate and this is one of them. There is verbiage in the Standards that is often times open to interpretation due to present wording. Marco states how they intended that to read. Others read it verbatim and act on it accordingly. I dunno what the best answer is on how to act.

Since French Lick got mentioned, another "for example" is the colors. MARC has not adopted the Paint & Refinish Guide. Some will argue that this was done many years ago however it has been revised several times and it has never been voted on to adopt the revs. by the MARC JSC. Therefore (at least in my opinion) it is unethical for a judge to use that book during MARC fine-point competition, -even when the Chief Judge has instructed Team Captains not to use it. None the less, this book was used as reference in French Lick and in San Diego.

On the flip side, while I mentioned about referring to Mick's book above, I probably should have re-phrased that because if I recall correctly, the fastener finishes are listed in the Ford Parts Price List books too, ...which is listed as an accepted reference for adjudication.

Steve P, even the JS book has what I perceive as mistakes. While I do not have one in front of me, if I recall correctly I believe it states that the engine manifold studs are supposed to be domed. After reading that, I removed the manifolds & studs from an engine on a fine-point car we are working on as it did not have a dome on the end of any stud. After a search of all of my core engines did not produce any I called James Rogers and had him look through his cores for correct studs. Finally I called a JSC member and asked him if he had any. He had also found this out and we came to the conclusion that maybe the word "inverted" just before the word dome was ommited. Now to add confusion, I understand the E28 engines possibly did indeed have a domed headed manifold stud. So what is a restorer to do? IMO, it boils down to restore the vehicle as accurately as you desire using what resources & information available that you deem as correct.


To me the bigger question might be; Which is more important to you, -the accuracy of your Car, ...or the accuracy of the adjudication your car receives? To me it is more about the car and the process involved to get there.

The other thought I have often pondered is, what would happen if the point system was kept a secret after adjudication? In other words, the car owner would never know the total points scored, --just what the judge felt was correct or incorrect about the owner's vehicle. Personally I feel the points are what causes most of the hostility and hard feelings in the fine-point evaluation process. How often do you hear "I lost 3 points because of ...." instead of "It appears I have an incorrect ______." So is the importance the car -or the points? Based on Ward and I trying to detail a reproduction battery, I would say the present focus is more on trying to score another few points over the car beside us! Also, factor in what Marco stated about a car with a repro battery still scoring 499.5 points, it proves that there is a 'point game' within this judging system that many play to strategize where points can be gained or lost towards the total score. Therefore is it really more about scoring the most points, or is it about the car's authentic restoration?



.

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

it proves that there is a 'point game' within this judging system that many play to strategize where points can be gained or lost towards the total score. Therefore is it really more about scoring the most points, or is it about the car's authentic restoration?



.

A VERY true statement Brent..and an interesting call...Points OR Authenticity... We will see more OSHKOSH!

[ericr]

to me, the foregoing discussion renews my puzzlement as to why any owner of one of these mass-produced vehicles has an interest in pursuing trophies. To me personally, it seems like an argument over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I can sure relate to restoring a car in its original condition as reasonably possible, but what I am reading borders on the ridiculous. But I know lots of people will disagree with me....shoot the works, admirals.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Also, factor in what Marco stated about a car with a repro battery still scoring 499.5 points, it proves that there is a 'point game' within this judging system that many play to strategize where points can be gained or lost towards the total score. Therefore is it really more about scoring the most points, or is it about the car's authentic restoration?

.

Of course the potential point totals come into play once one decides to enter a car in judging. How many will totally ignore it?

As I've said before, I built my Roadster FOR ME and nobody else. Although I know the Standards better than most due to the role I played in them, for the most part I ignored them during the restoration. Instead, I focused on my own research and built it the way I believed it should be. With that said, there was something I did specifically with "points" in mind. I knew back then that the Standards specified an incorrect finish (raven) for the shock fasteners. I restored two sets of original hardware, one in raven finish and one set correctly unfinished. I installed the raven set but modified the lock washers so they could later be removed without damaging any paint. As soon as I returned from Rochester and Toronto I promptly swapped them out with the correct set and never looked back. The Standards were subsequently corrected.

Originally Posted by ericr

to me, the foregoing discussion renews my puzzlement as to why any owner of one of these mass-produced vehicles has an interest in pursuing trophies.

I think that is a misread on what makes many people "tick". While what you suggest is applicable to some folks I believe it's truly a minority. Those that actually do so in pursuit of trophies usually don't have a love for the cars and soon leave the hobby for something else for gratification.

For many it's simply an added dimension or challenge to an already challenging restoration process, to see what they can accomplish. For example, there is a person about 35 miles from me that is working frantically to complete a car for the MAFCA meet this year. He is hoping to score over 400 before returning home and driving the heck out of it. To me that is a respectable goal.

For me, it's just one venue to share my car with others. I'm not big on trophies and have donated a couple to the local landfill. You will only find two "awards" in my home but they don't look like trophies and go unnoticed as such. I've been to MANY meets but only entered my car five times in sixteen years. Who knows, I may show the car again when it's twenty five years old!

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by ericr

to me, the foregoing discussion renews my puzzlement as to why any owner of one of these mass-produced vehicles has an interest in pursuing trophies. To me personally, it seems like an argument over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I can sure relate to restoring a car in its original condition as reasonably possible, but what I am reading borders on the ridiculous. But I know lots of people will disagree with me....shoot the works, admirals.

I 'prophetically' answered this above in post #12 ...quoted below:

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I find it is very challenging almost to the point of being stressful but it is also very rewarding. Participating has definitely made me a better craftsman. Fine-point is definitely is not for everyone, and sadly many hobbyists will never understand even a small fraction of what is involved.
.

.

[RockHillWill]

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From Marco's previous post: As I've said before, I built my Roadster FOR ME and nobody else. Although I know the Standards better than most due to the role I played in them, for the most part I ignored them during the restoration. Instead, I focused on my own research and built it the way I believed it should be.

Amen to that! The research and the treasure hunting is the best part of a fine point restoration in my opinion.

Like Marco, I have spent an enormous time in researching my project. At the risk of sounding brash, I feel that I have done more research on this particular car than any that I have heard of. (I am especially looking forward to chatting with Marco and comparing 'notes'.) Marco and a host of other VERY knowledgeable folks have been more than willing to share their information and ideas with me, all of which is appreciated. I have searched all the reference material that I could find and have made a list of every part number that is applicable to every part on my project. I have collected every drawing that is available from the archives and made a book from them.

I have a list of every spring, cotter pin, bolt, nut washer, lock washer, line, fitting and assorted hardware and I have them listed on an excell spreadsheet. I did this and collected all the hardware according to these lists and then sent them to the platers and finishers at the same time so the finishes will be the same from the front to the back.

Several folks here on the Fordbarn went out of their way to help me with the paint finishes, both inside and out. This is a GREAT place to glean information if you keep one foot in reality and the other in common sense. Please be aware that I cannot remember every one who has helped me, but I appreciate each one of them that offered help.

I am in the final stages of getting ready for Oshkosh. I am not sure how this project will do, but Marcos comment about doing it for himself really struck a nerve with me, as that is what I have been doing for 6-years and I LOVE it.

It is not about the points for me either, but about the journey. I may not know as much about the Restoration Guidelines as Marco and perhaps others, but I would bet that I know more about my project than any one else. The more research that you do and the more details that you gather, some things just seem to make sense and 'the light goes on'. For me that is the fun part, discovering emperical data that leads to undeniable conclusions.

It did take an amount of money, but in my former occupation, a parts supplier had a sign over his parts counter that said 'speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?' My response was always that speed does cost money, but it does not take the most money to have the fastest car. My opinion was that the effort and attention to detail far outweighed the spending of cash. I was able to back up that claim on several occassions.

Thanks Marco, for enlightening my day! It is not about the points, but about the journey. When the door closes to the judging room in Oshkosh, each of those who have a car inside will be able to look each other in the eye and know that on this particular day, in this particular town they were one of only 15-20 people in the world that were able to 'pull it off' and put a 'piece' in that room. Points are secondary to the comraderie that this group will enjoy forever.

There are going to be some very nice cars in Oshkosh. I'm not positive that I will be done in time, and am not sure how I will do if I get there, but I'm already happy!

[Richard Wilson]

Attaboy Will. As a hobbiest, I love your attitude. One has to respect the guys and gals like RockHillWill that put in the time on THEIR restoration. As Will says "I may not know as much about the Restoration Guidelines as Marco and perhaps others, but I would bet that I know more about my project than any one else." I really hope that Will and all of the rest with similar aspirations make Oshkosh with their Model A's.

[d.j. moordigian]

Yes, I'm with Marco and Will, also Brent...

The thing that bothers me is the lack of/disappearing quickly of original parts
that would finish off a "correctly restored car" too bring it up to a "Henry" standard.
The way I would like to restore my Roadster. You guy's know, or should know
which kind of stuff I'm talking about,....without listing some of them.

What is to happen in say 10 years,with no correct parts, and the point reduction......no Henry?

Thanks, Dudley

[ericr]

LOL I admit I am dense. I can endorse 100% wanting to make one's car painstakingly detailed to an original. But isn't it then a jump into trying to secure awards and titles through a competitve judging process that can be capricious and arbitrary? Why isn't it enough to restore it to pristine original?

[newshirt]

Originally Posted by ericr

LOL I admit I am dense. I can endorse 100% wanting to make one's car painstakingly detailed to an original. But isn't it then a jump into trying to secure awards and titles through a competitve judging process that can be capricious and arbitrary? Why isn't it enough to restore it to pristine original?

Why isn't it enough to restore it to pristine original? Because in some cases, nobody knows exactly what that means. The judging standards are an ongoing historical advancement. In other words, they get better as new historical evidence is uncovered and documented. That process may be feel frustrating, capricious, and arbitrary, but it's the best the hobby can offer at this time. Next year it will get better. And the year after that it will get even better. We just have to be patient with the current body of historical knowledge.

But there will always be questions over the details. It just seems interesting to some to help clarify and define those details for future restorers to enjoy. It's not for everyone.

This "fuzzy edge" of advancement actually happens in all historical contexts. Remember the Civil War movies from the 1960's? The material culture was laughable, and that was only 100 years after the fact. (Of course, that's typical Hollywood.) But as new artifacts and relics and documentation from the era were studied, the portrayals got better.

[d.j. moordigian]

Quote by Brent...


"Steve P, even the JS book has what I perceive as mistakes. While I do not have one in front of me, if I recall correctly I believe it states that the engine manifold studs are supposed to be domed. After reading that, I removed the manifolds & studs from an engine on a fine-point car we are working on as it did not have a dome on the end of any stud. After a search of all of my core engines did not produce any I called James Rogers and had him look through his cores for correct studs. Finally I called a JSC member and asked him if he had any. He had also found this out and we came to the conclusion that maybe the word "inverted" just before the word dome was ommited. Now to add confusion, I understand the E28 engines possibly did indeed have a domed headed manifold stud. So what is a restorer to do? IMO, it boils down to restore the vehicle as accurately as you desire using what resources & information available that you deem as correct. "

I have them on my E-28...........Dudley

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

Quote by Brent...


"Steve P, even the JS book has what I perceive as mistakes. While I do not have one in front of me, if I recall correctly I believe it states that the engine manifold studs are supposed to be domed. After reading that, I removed the manifolds & studs from an engine on a fine-point car we are working on as it did not have a dome on the end of any stud. After a search of all of my core engines did not produce any I called James Rogers and had him look through his cores for correct studs. Finally I called a JSC member and asked him if he had any. He had also found this out and we came to the conclusion that maybe the word "inverted" just before the word dome was ommited. Now to add confusion, I understand the E28 engines possibly did indeed have a domed headed manifold stud. So what is a restorer to do? IMO, it boils down to restore the vehicle as accurately as you desire using what resources & information available that you deem as correct. "

I have them on my E-28...........Dudley

Yep, through June of 1928 I am understanding.

[RockHillWill]

Ericr:

Regarding your post:

LOL I admit I am dense. I can endorse 100% wanting to make one's car painstakingly detailed to an original. But isn't it then a jump into trying to secure awards and titles through a competitve judging process that can be capricious and arbitrary? Why isn't it enough to restore it to pristine original?


My reasoning for taking it to these national meets is to determine how good of a job that I did. My neighbors can stop by and comment and my wife is very encouraging, but I want to go where the big boys are, just to see how I stack up!

Additionnaly, I get GREAT feedback from VERY knowledgeable other restorers and can come home with even more information than I left with, not to mention that comraderie that I mentioned in my earlier post.

I also look at is as COMPARATIVE (to the Restoration Guidelines) rather than competative. Additionnaly, every event and person that I meet each day in everyday life provides an opportunity for capriciousness and arbitration, but I'm not afraid!

[Big John]

So, anything on the car that is repro should not receive full points,,,,tires, tubes, that has to be replaced for safety reasons, paint, upholstery, tops, steering wheels, etc, that all are available from vendors, but many original items cannot be found or do not exist any more, so one has to use a repro....huckster bodies??? unoriginal air,,,grease, oil.... this can get mighty cornfusing...Big John..

[FL&WVMIKE]

Years ago, every medium sized town, had a battery rebuilding shop. The EPA put a stop to that, and maybe, rightfully so. A lot of used battery acid went down the sewer.
Anyway, a friend of mine found two NOS genuine Ford battery cases in one. One was for an "A" and one was for a Model 40 (1933-34) Ford. He kept the "A" case and gave me the V8 case. I still have it. In fact, I have two NOS cases. They are slightly different. I found the second one at a motorcycle swap meet for just $10.00, just last year ! They are still out there !
MIKE
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