gasoline

[Bubsyouruncle]

Watched several utubes on eliminating ethanol from pump gasoline.


Aside from the flammability aspects, comments. Like, does it work?

[40cpe]

I read that the ethanol is part of the octane rating, so you have less octane and fuel when you are finished.

[tomcarman]

I know nothing about the science of gasoline. I do know from personal experience we use ethanol free gas in the '32 (33 engine) and all our auxillary lawn care equipment, etc. Because they tend to sit for months on end without use we don't worry about degradation and varnish etc. They always fire right up and run just fine. Perhaps if one required higher octane for a higher compression engine or performance this gas may not be the best. Don't know but would be very interested to hear more on the science on this thread. The ethanol free gas is more expensive but given it is used far far less than daily drivers the cost difference is insignificant.

[tubman]

This subject was addressed on, I believe, the H.A.M.B. several month ago. The general consensus (backed up with some good data and examples) is that it is labor intensive and ineffective at best and downright dangerous in any case

I live in the "Lake Country" in North Central Minnesota, and ALL of the gas stations (even the ones at the supermarkets!) have "non-oxygenated" (no alcohol) gas.

[JSeery]

If there are boats or farm equipment around there should be non-ethanol gas available. Easy to find around here, it is all I use in my equipment.

[WABOOM]

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Yes you can easily force "phase separation" with water. If you start with 92 Super unleaded you end up about 88 octane petrol gasoline. It's a bit of a hassle, but if you can't easily buy Non-ethanol, it is a great alternative.
I can buy non-oxygenated/non-ethanol at about a dozen gas stations in a 15 mile radius of my home so it's not worth messing with it for me.

[Emmit51]

As Tubman said, very dangerous. I also dont think it will be that effective. You will likely absorb as much water into the gas as you get ethanol out. Thermodynamics are against you. I teach chemistry to graduate and undergraduates in my day job.

[WABOOM]

Originally Posted by Emmit51

As Tubman said, very dangerous. I also dont think it will be that effective. You will likely absorb as much water into the gas as you get ethanol out. Thermodynamics are against you. I teach chemistry to graduate and undergraduates in my day job.

Petrol gasoline is very hydrophobic. But since you are a chemistry teacher...
you already know that. Tell me more about gas and water mixing. Have the molecular properties changed recently?

[Tinker]

Buy the eth and burn it up. Don't let it sit in your car forever. granted I only use non-ox as it's available. Lot of guys use only eth all the time.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by Emmit51

As Tubman said, very dangerous. I also dont think it will be that effective. You will likely absorb as much water into the gas as you get ethanol out. Thermodynamics are against you. I teach chemistry to graduate and undergraduates in my day job.

But, as I understand it, gasoline and water do not mix! So how then does gasoline "absorb" water? From what I have read over the years, underground gasoline pipelines get water in them and the water settles out in low areas of the pipeline, and some water gets carried to the terminals where gas is stored in those huge tanks. These tanks have provision for draining off the water that settles out of the gas to the bottom of the tanks. This has been going on since the start of transporting gasoline through underground pipelines.
However, with the advent of diluting gasoline with ethanol, the water accumulation in the pipelines became a big problem because the ethanol would absorb that water and be ruined. So ethanol has to be shipped to the terminal by rail tank cars, which is much more expensive, as well as detrimental to the environment!

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by Emmit51

As Tubman said, very dangerous. I also dont think it will be that effective. You will likely absorb as much water into the gas as you get ethanol out. Thermodynamics are against you. I teach chemistry to graduate and undergraduates in my day job.

No more dangerous than filling up your lawnmower gas tank!
Here's an idea, taken from your local airport, where a standard preflight operation is draining a sample of fuel from each tank and checking it for water (which always settles to the bottom of the tanks). Failure to drain off the water (usually from condensation in the tanks) often results in a crash. So if you need to easily remove the ethanol for your A, mower, saw, etc., find a tank from a wrecked light plane and mount it in a stand in the same position as it was in the plane so that the sump drain is the lowest point. Add the appropiat amount of water to a five gallon gas can and fill it whenever you fill your daily driver. Shake and add to the plane tank. When it's full, wait a few days and drain off the ethanol/water sludge. Presto! Non-ethanol gas! Leave the plane tank outside. After all, airplanes often sit outside.

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

No more dangerous than filling up your lawnmower gas tank!
Here's an idea, taken from your local airport, where a standard preflight operation is draining a sample of fuel from each tank and checking it for water (which always settles to the bottom of the tanks). Failure to drain off the water (usually from condensation in the tanks) often results in a crash. So if you need to easily remove the ethanol for your A, mower, saw, etc., find a tank from a wrecked light plane and mount it in a stand in the same position as it was in the plane so that the sump drain is the lowest point. Add the appropiat amount of water to a five gallon gas can and fill it whenever you fill your daily driver. Shake and add to the plane tank. When it's full, wait a few days and drain off the ethanol/water sludge. Presto! Non-ethanol gas! Leave the plane tank outside. After all, airplanes often sit outside.

Probably a lot easier to find and use an automotive fuel tank with the drain plug in the bottom (virtually all vehicles had them)
My old Piper J3 did not have one in the fuel tank.
And yes, even automotive tanks sat outside.

[chiefdave]

There is a web site, pure-gas.org, that lists stations that offer non-ethanol gasoline by state. While not all inclusive it may give you a place to start. I live in a small town of 2,000 and we have 5 stations the offer real gasoline, one even has dedicated pumps.

[mrtexas]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

But, as I understand it, gasoline and water do not mix! So how then does gasoline "absorb" water? From what I have read over the years, underground gasoline pipelines get water in them and the water settles out in low areas of the pipeline, and some water gets carried to the terminals where gas is stored in those huge tanks. These tanks have provision for draining off the water that settles out of the gas to the bottom of the tanks. This has been going on since the start of transporting gasoline through underground pipelines.
However, with the advent of diluting gasoline with ethanol, the water accumulation in the pipelines became a big problem because the ethanol would absorb that water and be ruined. So ethanol has to be shipped to the terminal by rail tank cars, which is much more expensive, as well as detrimental to the environment!

Gasoline with ethanol was never transported by pipeline. A small trace of water in ethanol gas makes it milk colored. It is blended at the local pipeline terminal. Ethanol gasoline is also stored in tanks with a domed roof. Gasoline without ethanol is stored in floating roof tanks.

[mrtexas]

"while conventional gasoline can dissolve up to 150 parts per million of water at 70°F, the situation is different for gasoline oxygenated with 10% ethanol. This 90% gasoline/10% ethanol blend can dissolve up to 7,000 ppm of water at 70°F. When this blend is cooled, both the water and some of the ethanol become insoluble. Contacting the blend with more water also draws ethanol from the blend. The result, in both cases, is two layers of liquid, an upper ethanol-deficit gasoline layer and a lower ethanol-rich water layer. This phase separation of the gasoline/ethanol mix lowers the octane number and may cause knocking in an engine, while the engine will not run at all on the ethanol/water layer." https://petroclear.com/resources/dont-be-phased.php

[Emmit51]

Originally Posted by WABOOM

Petrol gasoline is very hydrophobic. But since you are a chemistry teacher...
you already know that. Tell me more about gas and water mixing. Have the molecular properties changed recently?

Yes, gasoline is hydrophobic, but when ethanol is added, it becomes more hydrophilic. "pure" gasoline, which is made up of many types of molecules and additives, absorbs water, but very little. When you mix gasoline with water, they form two layers, but each absorbs a little from the other. There is a small amount of water dissolved in the gas, and a little bit of gas dissolved in the water.



When you add ~10% ethanol to the gas, it gets more complicated. At that percentage, ethanol fully dissolves in gas. Dissolving ethanol in gas makes the gas more hydrophilic, and so if you mix ethanol-gas with water, it will still form two layers, but you will dissolve more water into the ethanol-gas, than you would with pure gas. likewise, you will dissolve some ethanol and more gas into the water (since the water is now more hydrophibic with ethanol dissolved in it).



If you let the 2 layers sit for a while to equilibrate, you will have a layer of gas that is saturated with water and still contains ethanol, and a layer of water/ethanol that is saturated with gas. Even though ethanol is completely miscible with water, you will not be able to remove all the ethanol form the gas. To get close to complete extraction, you would need to repeat the process with fresh water multiple times. Bear in mind that in addition to removing some ethanol from gas, you are also probably removing some other additives, such as detergents as well.


For anyone who does this, aside from the potential hazards of sloshing around gallons of flammable liquid and exposure to vapors, you might also consider what you will do with the water waste that is saturated with gasoline? I hope no one is dumping this "down the drain".

[philipswanson]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

No more dangerous than filling up your lawnmower gas tank!

. Add the appropiat amount of water to a five gallon gas can and fill it whenever you fill your daily driver. Shake and add to the plane tank.

So what's the "appropriate" amount of water for 5 gallons?

[mrtexas]

Non ethanol gasoline is saturated with water. All the gasoline storage tanks in a refinery have floating roofs and water drains. The floating roof is to minimize evaporation vapor emissions.
But water is a polar(meaning it has an electrical charge on it) molecule and gasoline isn't(being mostly paraffins and aromatics) so there is not much water dissolved in gasoline. BTW ethanol is also a charged molecule(not as charges as water however) which is why water dissolves in it.

[JSeery]

I checked yesterday, the price of 91 octane 10% ethanol and non-ethanol gas is the same price. So if you can get the non-ethanol don't think attempting to modify 10% ethanol would be worth the effort.

[WABOOM]

Originally Posted by philipswanson

So what's the "appropriate" amount of water for 5 gallons?

The basic idea is to add around 10% water to pull out the 10% ethanol. So 2 quarts of water goes in and 4 quarts of cloudy ethanol/water comes out.

[richard crow]

in the cold climet states i don,t know how maney of you guys remember adding dry gas witch was achol every fall & if you did not you wound up with a frozen fuel line .now you never hear the word dry gas because the fuel has ethanol. where i live you can,t get gas with out it. i changed all the rubber parts in the cars fuel pump gas line never had any trouble since same as that BS about unleaded fuel never did any thing to the vale seats or vales. reminds me of that 2000 midelem BS. all the comp. were sepose to crash. these old fords will run on piss there not 12 cylinder italin sports cars

[mrtexas]

Originally Posted by JSeery

I checked yesterday, the price of 91 octane 10% ethanol and non-ethanol gas is the same price. So if you can get the non-ethanol don't think attempting to modify 10% ethanol would be worth the effort.

Not where I live. No corn gas is $1/gallon more than super.

[papanomad]

why is non ethanol gas more available in corn growing states?

[WABOOM]

Originally Posted by papanomad

why is non ethanol gas more available in corn growing states?

Small engines, boats and ATV's, and collector cars have motivated the availability. I think our state laws allow the sale of non -ethanol.

[mrtexas]

Originally Posted by papanomad

why is non ethanol gas more available in corn growing states?

Sort of ironic, eh? Your ethanol pollutes Texas gasoline and Iowa doesn't have to burn it!

[rotorwrench]

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This is a link to the auto fuel STC for aircraft engines. It has a lot of good info and listing for who carries non alcohol Mogas. They use the water test to verify whether it has alcohol or not but it is for test only and not designed to lower the octane rating of the fuel. It's low enough already.
https://www.autofuelstc.com/

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by mrtexas

Not where I live. No corn gas is $1/gallon more than super.

Must be a state tax thing. Fairly sure your gas comes from the same refineries Kansas uses. At that price can't see how there would be a market for it.

[mrtexas]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Must be a state tax thing. Fairly sure your gas comes from the same refineries Kansas uses. At that price can't see how there would be a market for it.

Cheap for my lawn mowers and weed eaters considering the corn gas destroys the carburetor. Gas station has to put in a separate pump and tank. Must be a regulation thing as alcohol free gas is hard to come by in Texas.

[paul2748]

Up here (NJ) all we have is 10 %. Never had a problem with it, even sitting over the four winter months


There might be a few places where we can get non-ethanol, but they are few and far between.


Don't use crap like Sta-Bil either.

[mrtexas]

Here is my in tank fuel pump after sitting in the tank for 2 years.

[WABOOM]

Originally Posted by paul2748

Up here (NJ) all we have is 10 %. Never had a problem with it, even sitting over the four winter months


There might be a few places where we can get non-ethanol, but they are few and far between.


Don't use crap like Sta-Bil either.

I wish the best of luck to you.

[rotorwrench]

Here in SA, Quick Trip and Murphy supplied stations carry it. Houston is too close to the refineries. Buc-Ees in Katy is likely the only place close that carries it. Hyper racing fuels would be the only other supplier and it would be a Gulf product.

https://www.pure-gas.org/

[philipswanson]

Can't buy it anywhere around here in SoCa but plenty of boats. Maybe get avgas??

[JSeery]

Very easy to find here in Kansas. This is an older photo, so the prices are way out of date.

[chiefdave]

Originally Posted by mrtexas

Not where I live. No corn gas is $1/gallon more than super.

I filled up my truck this morning, 91 octane corn was $2.569 and 91 octane real gas was $2.669. The increase in mileage more than makes up the dime a gallon difference. This station also has nozzles specific for the non-ethanol gas. For comparison 87 octane corn was $2.119.

[ktgarcia]

I drove my 1939 Ford Pickup last August to a hardware store. I made it about halfway home before it stopped. I had to have it towed home. I did some research and think it was a vapor lock. I did some additional reading and some of the posts stated that the ethanol/gasoline vaporizes more quickly and that can create a problem. I have since just purchased ethanol free gasoline and so far have had no problem. I also added an electric fuel pump which seems to help for putting gasoline to the carburetor after a long period of no starting. No problems so far.