Interesting observation with a 59L block- Still pretty thick @ 3 3/8ths bore

[Bored&Stroked]

Something to ponder . . . I don't know that profile off-hand . . . but if it is a big-lift cam on a standard core, then you might want to think about a steel core.

Ronnie - what do yo u think about that profile on a 32 steel core? Is that a radius lifter profile - and at what radius? I just love discussions like this! And How!

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Something to ponder . . . I don't know that profile off-hand . . . but if it is a big-lift cam on a standard core, then you might want to think about a steel core.

Ronnie - what do yo u think about that profile on a 32 steel core? Is that a radius lifter profile - and at what radius? I just love discussions like this! And How!

Here’s some light reading....

http://www.midstateantiquestockcarcl...at_heads4.html

[GOSFAST]

Just a "tip", we are working with a 3.375" block now that will go another .010"+ to clean it up.

I strongly recommend using a shop that has a block-plate for the finish honing. We block-plate every build but feel it's even more critical with these extra-large o'bores!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. The more metal removed from the original bore size the more distortion occurs when the heads and fasteners are assembled. The plate eliminates any chance of "blow-by" at least from the ring area with the pistons at TDC.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by GOSFAST

Just a "tip", we are working with a 3.375" block now that will go another .010"+ to clean it up.

I strongly recommend using a shop that has a block-plate for the finish honing. We block-plate every build but feel it's even more critical with these extra-large o'bores!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. The more metal removed from the original bore size the more distortion occurs when the heads and fasteners are assembled. The plate eliminates any chance of "blow-by" at least from the ring area with the pistons at TDC.

Thanks for the input Gary.

Monday is "go" or "no go" day.

Thanks for all support and well wishes. Please keep me in your "flathead prayers" this weekend and I'll report back once I hear.

Hopefully in a few weeks I'll be able to post a video of this beast running so we can all rejoice in the glorious noise! WHHHAAAAPPPPPPPPPPP! LOL!

[Ol' Ron]

Interesting thing about a torque plate. Back in the day, we didn't know about them, but many engines were bored to 3 3/8 and stroked to 4 1/8. The was called the 3/8 engine. Most were driven hard. And yes after 10/15 k miles were oil burners.. Sometimes piston clearance was too much, Jahnns Pistons were common, and run loose .005+. The stupid factor ran very high back then, but it was part of the learning process. The 296 I built 20 years ago was replaced by a blown 294 last year. I offered to rebuild the engine for the owner, but he said there was nothing wrong with it. He's keeping it for a spare. I guess we learn fro, our mistakes. Yes, I have a torque plate.

[Tim Ayers]

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Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Interesting thing about a torque plate. Back in the day, we didn't know about them, but many engines were bored to 3 3/8 and stroked to 4 1/8. The was called the 3/8 engine. Most were driven hard. And yes after 10/15 k miles were oil burners.. Sometimes piston clearance was too much, Jahnns Pistons were common, and run loose .005+. The stupid factor ran very high back then, but it was part of the learning process. The 296 I built 20 years ago was replaced by a blown 294 last year. I offered to rebuild the engine for the owner, but he said there was nothing wrong with it. He's keeping it for a spare. I guess we learn fro, our mistakes. Yes, I have a torque plate.

I made a crude one by cutting 3 7/8" holes into a cast iron head. I haven't used it yet, but i'm sure a precision made, thick metal plate would be better than the one I have.

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

I made a crude one by cutting 3 7/8" holes into a cast iron head. I haven't used it yet, but i'm sure a precision made, thick metal plate would be better than the one I have.

Tim guess what else I have in stock Yep torque plate which will be loaned to the Sunnen operator along with the correct head gasket when we know its a go.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Tim guess what else I have in stock Yep torque plate which will be loaned to the Sunnen operator along with the correct head gasket when we know its a go.

Haha.

I was actually going to write, " Ronnie has his own plate", but I'm trying hard to keep your "Adult Day Care" program on the QT.

Henry is still talking about going to "Ronnie's place" and the chili at Redwood's. LOL!

I truly feel fortunate that you're helping me out with this project.

[Tim Ayers]

Happy to report the block is good!!!!!

I guess five is a charm....

More to come. The motor is in good hands....

[flatjack9]

Great news.

[Ol' Ron]

Gofast brought up a good question about block distortion. I believe this is true and fro the past 50 years have been torquing my engines to 45/50 lbs through 3 heat cycles, or as many as needed to get them tight. The deck of the block is thick and thin, which remotes distortion. Not sure what the application of engine is, but if for street, a wild cam is a wast of money.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Gofast brought up a good question about block distortion. I believe this is true and fro the past 50 years have been torquing my engines to 45/50 lbs through 3 heat cycles, or as many as needed to get them tight. The deck of the block is thick and thin, which remotes distortion. Not sure what the application of engine is, but if for street, a wild cam is a wast of money.

Ron:

It will be a hot street car and cam is still undecided. Will be using ARP studs which I hope will help some what.

Torque plate will absolutely be used. Plan is to try to get it to .010+, if not .020" Egge has this pistons so no worry about custom ones.

Will keep everyone updated.

[Ol' Ron]

I never use studs, but that's not the issue. Torquing the heads beyond 50 lbs is unnecessary and can only cause trouble along the way. Torquing 24 studs to 45 ft/lbs is more clamping force than a blown Hemi has. Time is the killer here. after the cylinders distort the engine runs just fine, but the ringgs don't seat right and after 5 or 10 thousand miles, you have an oil burner.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

I never use studs, but that's not the issue. Torquing the heads beyond 50 lbs is unnecessary and can only cause trouble along the way. Torquing 24 studs to 45 ft/lbs is more clamping force than a blown Hemi has. Time is the killer here. after the cylinders distort the engine runs just fine, but the ringgs don't seat right and after 5 or 10 thousand miles, you have an oil burner.

Yeah, I hear ya. I have full confidence with Ronnie and I'm sure it will be good to go for many years. Ronnie has in mind that my 12 y.o. son is a flat head nut too and wants him to be able to clean it up if necessary once this car becomes his many years from now.

Ronnie rebuilt the motor in Fred Steele's roadster many years ago. That was at 3 3/8ths and needed to go .030+ to clean up. Motor is still running strong as ever, so I'm sure mine will too.

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

I never use studs, but that's not the issue. Torquing the heads beyond 50 lbs is unnecessary and can only cause trouble along the way. Torquing 24 studs to 45 ft/lbs is more clamping force than a blown Hemi has. Time is the killer here. after the cylinders distort the engine runs just fine, but the ringgs don't seat right and after 5 or 10 thousand miles, you have an oil burner.

Ol Ron some of your build ways are not how its being done these days. Using bolts in tired old threads promotes striping them out even at less than 40 pounds torque, Just using studs helps reduce the thread damage. Sure it cost more money using studs but hey I say do it once not twice. The cylinder distortion produced by any amount of torquing no mater what fastener is used is removed by using the torque plate any honing done without the use of a torque plate will cause the problem you mention time being the killer. As a note my HEMI conversion torque is far greater than what you use and take it from me its needs to be higher also on my 426.
Now having over 45 years of continuous personal experience in real world use both on the street for many thousands of miles as well as all out competition have proven to me there is a better way to do this.
Now i know Tims big bore engine will do some burning but its going to be tire rubber.

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Using bolts in tired old threads promotes striping them out even at less than 40 pounds torque,

Just a tip here but anyone doing the finish honing using a block plate should test EVERY head bolt/stud hole for strength.

It's a very simple procedure to do when mounting the plate. It will all but guarantee no threads pulling during the final ass'y. Been down this road a few times myself over 50 years ago!

Simply bring the Torque on each bolt to about 30#/35# or so above the projected number for the final ass'y. If any threads are going to "fail" they most likely will at this stage!

We've been using this "test" method for years now, I posted about it a while ago up here!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Here's a shot of a single hole showing the "test" number, we've never had a single thread loss later during the final ass'y period, not one.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by GOSFAST

Just a tip here but anyone doing the finish honing using a block plate should test EVERY head bolt/stud hole for strength.

It's a very simple procedure to do when mounting the plate. It will all but guarantee no threads pulling during the final ass'y. Been down this road a few times myself over 50 years ago!

Simply bring the Torque on each bolt to about 30#/35# or so above the projected number for the final ass'y. If any threads are going to "fail" they most likely will at this stage!

We've been using this "test" method for years now, I posted about it a while ago up here!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.


P.S. Here's a shot of a single hole showing the "test" number, we've never had a single thread loss later during the final ass'y period, not one.

Strange that you should post that picture.
I have used that almost exact setup to test block threads for years.
Only difference is, I use 100 ft. lb. as the load, and that is after running a FULL size tap in the holes so there is bare clean metal for the stud to work on.
I have only had a few fail the test and they were repaired with steel plugs.

[Ol' Ron]

There are over 1300 people watching this thread, be nice if we could agree on a method of bolting a set of head on a block. Testing head bolt threads with 90/100 lbs of torque is going to strip out allot of threads. On my Bville engine I striped out a few at 50, which I had to repair. I use a head bolt slotted to clean the threads. The Hydro engine came back to be because it wasn't running right. I told the owner to retorque the heads after he ran it. I had re torqued it before i shipped it. When I got it back they were all loose. Yet the head gaskets were all good. Kinda makes you think. Just because you've done something for 50 years, doesn't make it right, just means your old. Like me. The best part of this engine is: it's very forgiving, considering the "stuff" we do to it.
/

[Pete]

Ron is right, you don't need to test street engine threads at 100.
If you are building engines, you need to determine what the engine will be used for and develop a set of test parameters for that type of engine.
An engine that runs 100% nitro or even straight alcohol with 14 to1 compression won't run very long with street parameters applied.
The other way around is just a waste of money.

There is no one set of rules that apply to all engines.

[Bored&Stroked]

RE: Retorqueing and Fastener Quality: When I ran stock studs and/or the cheaper aftermarket ones, I typically had to heat cycle and retorque 3 - 5 times . . . was just what you had to do to get to a point where the torque values held. (All I really used on performance flatheads are studs). Some of the retorque issues were due to the quality of the nuts and washers (distortion, etc). When I switched to ARP studs, and thicker ARP washers and nuts, it was a completely different situation. After one heat cycle, they will be VERY close to the original torque -- one little "torque tune-up" and I am pretty much ready to go. Another reason I like studs is that I surely prefer to be tightening on the fine threaded end of a stud - with a lot of moly-lube (versus the coarse end with some level of rust in the block, Teflon goop, etc). You get really consistent/smooth fastener rotation and more accurate torque values when you're not trying to screw a coarse-end thread into a cast iron block. Lastly, I want to screw around with the coarse block threads as little as possible - I set the studs, let the Teflon setup and leave them alone. ARP stuff is expensive (no question), but it is surely worth it on a performance flathead build.