Frame question,,,

[Patrick L.]

Once the frame is straight has anyone done anything to strengthen/reinforce the frame?? Or once you get them 'adjusted ' do they tend to 'stay put' ?? It doesn't look difficult to stiffen and not have it show very much..

[flatford39]

It's always been my understanding that they were designed to flex somewhat and you did not need to stiffen them up.

[ford1]

if the frame has been straightened once it will bend in the same place again, a small amout of plating in that place will stop it from happing again, you can either box plate it or put a 3/16 plate inside the frame at the bend

[Patrick L.]

OK, thanks.. It appears/seems that if the frame has bent it would bend again eventually if it wasn't stiffened..

[Marco Tahtaras]

As most folks would guess, I'm not inclined to alter or modify a frame. With that said, I've been involved with a number of cars where the frame was straightened. Some go back 25 years and still show no signs of a sag returning. Also those that know me will attest to how fussy I am about hood fits. I would see ANY degradation no matter how slight.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

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Originally Posted by ford1

if the frame has been straightened once it will bend in the same place again, ...

This may indeed be your experiences but I personally do not find this to occur if the 'stretched' metal is heated & shrunk.

.

[d.j. moordigian]

Brent,
How much sag in the frame, pictured?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

Brent,
How much sag in the frame, pictured?

I honestly do not remember as many of these have "gone under the bridge" over the years. Maybe ¼" +/- ??

[Terry, NJ]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

This may indeed be your experiences but I personally do not find this to occur if the 'stretched' metal is heated & shrunk.

.

All of my lifetime experiences have involved stretching metal, that's no problem. How does one shrink metal? Heat it up and throw water on it?
Terry

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Terry, I just found this post and did not realize it was finished.

To shrink metal, all that needs to happen is get the metal hot enough that steam rises when water is applied. The amount and area size you need to draw it will determine whether you choose to use a water-saturated rag, or an air hose blowing air over the surface, ...or just allow it to normalize back to room temps on its own. If the metal has been turned red, that is too high of temps. This, like any craft, takes some time to learn how to properly execute the process but this method of repair is much more stable and lasting.

[Dave in MN]

"If the metal has been turned red, that is too high of temps."

Brent, What happens to the metal if it is heated to "red" and then cooled? In what instances might one want to heat to red and then cool metal?

From your experience, when shrinking the metal, do additional cycles of the shrinking process at the same location deliver consistant or diminishing returns.

Thanks in advance for sharing your hard earned knowledge,
Good Day!
Dave in MN

[Terry, NJ]

Bear in mind, I have never straightened a frame so I may be talking through my hat. I'm doing my frame too. First, let's never forget the frame is tempered. Excess heat will destroy the temper and leave one with a totally annealed hunk of dead soft steel (welding the frame can do the same thing) Next, the hotter the steel, the more it expands! We don't want expansion! I think that Brent's method does not induce more than 500 deg. F and is only perfomed at the apex of the bend. Then he quenches with cold water to induce contraction into the steel. At least that's what I'm getting from his discription.
Terry

Originally Posted by Dave in MN

"If the metal has been turned red, that is too high of temps."

Brent, What happens to the metal if it is heated to "red" and then cooled? In what instances might one want to heat to red and then cool metal?

From your experience, when shrinking the metal, do additional cycles of the shrinking process at the same location deliver consistant or diminishing returns.

Thanks in advance for sharing your hard earned knowledge,
Good Day!
Dave in MN

[Patrick L.]

Boy, I was surprised to see this. I had forgotten about this post.. Thanks for the info.. I doubt these old Fords see much of the use/abuse they were put through when new and I'm glad to hear the frames will 'stay put' when properly 'adjusted'..

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Terry, who says that the frames were "tempered"? I think the proper definition is they were manufactured with a slight amount of Vanadium steel. Most people tend to think of Vandium steel as being stronger, --and while it does strengthen it somewhat (depending on the amount of carbon & other elements added), I think the biggest reason it was used by Ford was for corrosion resistance and slight strengthening. Maybe someone could research this as this is just a memory I have.


Dave, while I am not a metalurgist, I have always understood that the amount of carbon the steel has in it greatly determines what happens when it is heated in excess of 500° ...but I am of the opinion that not alot of degredation happens even when quickly quenched with water simply because the amount of water that is applied to the frame rail.

I think of a piece of metal as a rubber band in some ways that when has been stretched and then relaxed, it can only go back to the original form when it was initially made. While you can push the band together to make it look like it has been shrunk, in actuality all you have done is re-arranged the shape of the band, and not really made the surface area smaller. If something (frame rail, wheel spoke, etc.) is stretched maybe 10% in an area, the first heating and shrinking may take 8½% of the stretch away. Subsequent heatings may remove additional amounts until the piece has returned to its original shape or form. From there I suppose it is possible that an additional shrinking may happen but it probably will be negligible since it is limited by its properties when the steel was made. What you must remember is that many objects are formed by stretching when the item was manufactured, so over-shrinking is actually just returning the metal to its original form.



Some may argue that once a frame has been bent (stretched) and straightened that it will bend in the same place again. My experience does not indicate this however a point can be made that because this area was a weak link initially, if the same level of trauma were induced to that area again, it will bend again in the same manner, --but I am of the opinion that it would take the same amount of force to rebend the properly repaired area just as it would another frame that has never been damaged in that area.


One other thought for those who really want to think this process through, let's use this example. If I was to take a 2" wide by 12" long piece of paper and pull it sharply over the edge of my desk a few times, the paper would have a new bend to its shape. Some might suggest to remove that bend, just flip the paper over and drag it across the edge of the desk in the same manner until the bend is reversed. Now, ...has the bent paper really been repaired? It looks straight again. In reality, what allowed the paper to take on a bent shape was the fact that the fibers on the opposite side of the bend were being stretched, --or compromised while the fibers closest to the desk stayed the same. When we flipped the paper over and drug it across the edge of the desk to reverse the bend, we really didn't compressed those stretched fibers back to their original state did we? Actually what we did was stretch the other side to equal the initially stretched fibers, ...which because these fibers have been stretched, they do not have the same strength as when I first picked up the paper.

Now apply this same mindset to the frame rails and understand that when the molecules are stretched on one side just like the paper fibers were, bending the rail in the opposite direction does not force the stretched molecules back to their former state. Therefore if you stretch the opposite side of the rail to make it straight again, this is no different than we did flipping the paper to the opposite side to remove the bend. When a piece of steel such as the frame rail is stretched initially, ...and then stretched again in an effort to make a repair, just like the paper fibers, the steel composition has been compromised and that area is indeed not as strong as it was when it was initially formed. In this scenario, I do agree that if a force was added to that area, it would take less force (pressure) to bend the frame simply because of the repair method.

If someone has some additional thoughts regarding this, I would welcome them.

.

[d.j. moordigian]

Terry,

The frame is not tempered, if the metal was, it would have failed in the radius
when formed in the dies. When the metal is formed it work hardens, which gives
it its strength. This also imparts internal stress, one reason some parts crack in
the same place, part after part.
Try this experiment, wrap something in Aluminum foil to cook, then try to straiten
it....it's not that easy.
Heating the frame, a Very Dark Cherry, in a dimly lit shop should look about right, I would
think, Brent does this sound correct to you?

Dudley

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Mr. Moordigian, even dark cherry is a little more applied heat than what we try to do. If the metal is hot enough to make steam out of water that is applied, it will shrink the metal. Generally after it has cooled, it will turn the clean metal to a blueish color, ...but we don't try to make it turn any color (red, cherry, etc.) on purpose (not saying that it doesn't happen on occasion).

[d.j. moordigian]

Brent,

Lite Straw color would/should have applied here, for a better example than Very Dark
Cherry...your correct.

" Mr. Moordigian "...a little formal ?

Dudley

[Russ/40]

From my experience, although limited, I find the amount of distortion attributed to overheating the metal is inversely proportional to the gauge of the metal.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

" Mr. Moordigian "...a little formal ?

Dudley

Nope, ...just addressed you in due respect.

.