The Ford Barn

em1davis · 10-04-2014, 01:50 PM

The car was running just fine before. I inherited it from my grandfather a few years back. I decided to try and find a ticking sound last year and pulled the left wheel off, when some wiser people than me mentioned that it was probably the trim on the wheel. So since I had the wheel off I decided to do the brakes. On the left wheel I was able to pull the drum off with a three prong puller but the wheel hub stayed behind on axle. The right wheel refused to come off with the three prong puller when I learned about the special rear wheel puller which I ended up buying then with a cheater bar was able to pull the drum off with wheel hub and bearing. So now that I've replaced the shoes, greased the bearings, and replaced the grease seal I'm trying to put it all back together to enjoy the weather with a nice ride.

So I can't compare the other wheel because the drum is separate from the wheel hub.
I guess my next trick is going to be pulling the grease seal and bearing again to test the seal, bearing and tapered end of the axle each independent of the others.

Jason

Kube · 10-04-2014, 02:03 PM

Jason, You did have everything together correctly.
Removing everything, although time consuming, may prove in this case to be the most effective way to diagnose your issue.
The next thing I would attempt is to install the drums on the opposite side - no keys, no seals. If they go on, then install the grease seals and try them again. If they go on, install the keys and yes, try them again.
You guessed it... do this methodically and always one step at a time.

V8COOPMAN · 10-04-2014, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George/Maine

If it were correct with 800 posts the drum would go on.
Its wrong.

Right Rear Brake
XRay view From backing plate side.

Your own Low Info Affliction is doing nothing but adding to the confusion. The couple of guys that KNOW what they're talking about will help Jason thru this just fine. DD

em1davis · 10-04-2014, 02:31 PM

Well I isolated it down to the taper of either the drum or axle.

Bearing goes on fine.
Need a new grease seal
Drum with no bearing or seal does not allow for it to go flush.

I guess now I need to pull the bearing from the other side to see if its the axle or drum.

Any other tricks before I go pulling the other side?

Thanks
Jason

Mart · 10-04-2014, 03:25 PM

You pulled the drum off and the hub stayed on???

The two parts are supposed to be rivetted together by a "swedging" around the studs.

You may have bent the drum, which might mean the hub is nicely home where it should be, but the outer part of the drum is still outboard of where it should be due to being pulled out of shape by the earlier pulling attempt.

I am only going on my interpretation of what you have written, so I may have got it wrong.

Was this the car with the damaged threads on the end of the axle?

Mart.

Kube · 10-04-2014, 06:00 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by em1davis

Well I isolated it down to the taper of either the drum or axle.

Bearing goes on fine.
Need a new grease seal
Drum with no bearing or seal does not allow for it to go flush.

I guess now I need to pull the bearing from the other side to see if its the axle or drum.

Any other tricks before I go pulling the other side?

Thanks
Jason

Jason, to have damaged the taper in the hub would take a ton of force. A TON!
I think Mart has offered a decent suggestion in that you may have damaged the drum when removing it. The puller you used is NOT intended for this type of hub.
I'd at the very least explore the possibility that Mart had suggested.

em1davis · 10-04-2014, 06:01 PM

Yes the left tire the drum is off the car and the hub is on the axle. Which to me seems like a great design. (I haven't even begun to mess with putting this side back together)

The right tire is the one where all of this drama is occurring. Fouled threads, (fixed thanks to the fourm's suggestion of breaking a die in half) Reversed key, and drum refusing to go back on.

If the drum is bent it bent perfectly since it sit flat on level surface.

I guess I'm going to have to pull the other side.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mart

You pulled the drum off and the hub stayed on???

The two parts are supposed to be rivetted together by a "swedging" around the studs.

You may have bent the drum, which might mean the hub is nicely home where it should be, but the outer part of the drum is still outboard of where it should be due to being pulled out of shape by the earlier pulling attempt.

I am only going on my interpretation of what you have written, so I may have got it wrong.

Was this the car with the damaged threads on the end of the axle?

Mart.

Kube · 10-05-2014, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by em1davis

Yes the left tire the drum is off the car and the hub is on the axle. Which to me seems like a great design. (I haven't even begun to mess with putting this side back together)

The right tire is the one where all of this drama is occurring. Fouled threads, (fixed thanks to the fourm's suggestion of breaking a die in half) Reversed key, and drum refusing to go back on.

If the drum is bent it bent perfectly since it sit flat on level surface.

I guess I'm going to have to pull the other side.

Most likely, from your description the drum is not bent.
Did you bother to have the drum turned? The shoes arced?

JM 35 Sedan · 10-05-2014, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by em1davis

Yes the left tire the drum is off the car and the hub is on the axle. Which to me seems like a great design. (I haven't even begun to mess with putting this side back together)

The right tire is the one where all of this drama is occurring. Fouled threads, (fixed thanks to the fourm's suggestion of breaking a die in half) Reversed key, and drum refusing to go back on.

If the drum is bent it bent perfectly since it sit flat on level surface.

I guess I'm going to have to pull the other side.

Jason, would you please post some pictures of the drum/hub that will not go on the axle, both inside and outside views, and some pictures of the other hub and drum that came apart when you tried to pull it off. Also, could you take measurements of the length of exposed axle on each side, from the end of the axle housing bearing to the tip of the threaded end of the axles. Plus any other pictures you think might help us understand what could be wrong. Maybe with these pictures and enough eyes focused on them we can understand the problem(s) you are having.

em1davis · 10-05-2014, 05:09 PM

So I still haven't pulled the other wheel hub. Question how do I keep the wheel from spinning since the other tire is off now?

Here are a bunch of pictures and I think they show the drum got bent at the studs compared the one that the hub didn't come off with.
https://plus.google.com/112774154315...ts/UThWEc3n1zQ

I still want to swap wheel hubs just to make sure before I drop money on a new drum.

Any good links out there for new drums? I know vintage precision sells a new drum using modern materials and such. http://vintageprecision.com/products...ums/index.html

C&G has some as well http://cgfordparts.com/ufolder/cgcat...&searchnumber=

George/Maine · 10-05-2014, 06:44 PM

It does look like the lever is on the out side my mistake.
When you are taking the other side hub off,
do you have a puller like the one I bought on epay # 160481319553
Put the tire back on lower and turn puller nut.
The key way with the angle goes out to end ,and up for drum to lineup better.
Looks like newer remove able drums. Macs has new drums.

dean333 · 10-05-2014, 06:59 PM

George, the key needs to go IN WITH THE TAPER TOWARD THE AXLE, otherwise the drum may bind instead of seating all the way. Ditto post #6. Inserting the key wrong could lead to an axle cracking and a potential disaster driving down the road.

JM 35 Sedan · 10-05-2014, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by em1davis

Any good links out there for new drums? I know vintage precision sells a new drum using modern materials and such. http://vintageprecision.com/products...ums/index.html

I believe these guys make the drums and other brake parts that many of the other dealers carry

http://www.mtcarproducts.com/

If you can get in touch with Richard Lacy at the Early V8 Garage in West Covina, California, he would recommend the best parts and procedures to get your brakes straightened out.

http://www.earlyv8garage.qpg.com/

George/Maine · 10-06-2014, 04:04 AM

IF you have the keyway off and the bearing out, put the hub on make sure its on all the way. Then put drum on. If it does,nt go on all the way there must have been a problem before you got the car. With out the bearing and goes on ,
if the bearing was replaced it could be wrong and to long. should be 1 21/32"
A pitman arm puller could be used not that 3 jaw puller.

Mart · 10-06-2014, 05:25 AM

George, the centre of the drum has been bent by use of the incorrect puller. I believe Jason has found the reason why it wasn't assembling up properly.

Jason, the side where the drum came off, has that drum been damaged too?

I hope at least that side is ok.

Mart.

George/Maine · 10-06-2014, 06:49 AM

Mart It looks like the other drum is off and in good condition. or maybe another drum.
I,m going to think something wrong here like a narrow rear.
I,m retireing today LOL
got me 2 firestone tire coming.
I,ll just for fun measure backing plate side to side on my 47

Kube · 10-06-2014, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George/Maine

It does look like the lever is on the out side my mistake.
When you are taking the other side hub off,
do you have a puller like the one I bought on epay # 160481319553
Put the tire back on lower and turn puller nut.
The key way with the angle goes out to end ,and up for drum to lineup better.
Looks like newer remove able drums. Macs has new drums.

George, The radius on the key goes towards the inside and down. It "follows" the way the slot is cut in the axle.

JM 35 Sedan · 10-06-2014, 09:14 AM

One of the drums shown in Jason's pictures definitely looks damaged to me. These drums also look different than any of the '40 - '48 Ford drums that I am familiar with. Are these possibly some off brand after market drums/hubs? Anyone else notice this?

George/Maine · 10-06-2014, 11:28 AM

HAVE HERE A STOCK HUB AND DRUM FOR INFO.1947 FORD
1947 Ford rear brake drum info stock drum and hub.
Laying drum down and measure to mounting surface is 3- 3/4"
Rear end width from housing bolt surface to inner backing plate is 24 3/8"
Rear end width from housing bolt surface to drum edge is 24 5/8" and covers backing plate good.

Kube · 10-06-2014, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

One of the drums shown in Jason's pictures definitely looks damaged to me. These drums also look different than any of the '40 - '48 Ford drums that I am familiar with. Are these possibly some off brand after market drums/hubs? Anyone else notice this?

John, You most certainly have better eyesight than I do.
Drums from 1940 through 1948 underwent numerous design changes. Four that I know of, perhaps more. Drums will interchange (40 - 48) as you and hopefully most others realize. With my (poor) eyes, the drums Jason have appear to be '46ish.

I think this has a few of us intrigued as brakes are fairly simple to repair and this job seems a bit perplexing.
I wish i was close to Jason as I am confident a fresh (different) look at things would turn up the underlying issue right away.

10-04-2014, 01:50 PM	#41
em1davis Member Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 49	Re: Putting Drums back on The car was running just fine before. I inherited it from my grandfather a few years back. I decided to try and find a ticking sound last year and pulled the left wheel off, when some wiser people than me mentioned that it was probably the trim on the wheel. So since I had the wheel off I decided to do the brakes. On the left wheel I was able to pull the drum off with a three prong puller but the wheel hub stayed behind on axle. The right wheel refused to come off with the three prong puller when I learned about the special rear wheel puller which I ended up buying then with a cheater bar was able to pull the drum off with wheel hub and bearing. So now that I've replaced the shoes, greased the bearings, and replaced the grease seal I'm trying to put it all back together to enjoy the weather with a nice ride. So I can't compare the other wheel because the drum is separate from the wheel hub. I guess my next trick is going to be pulling the grease seal and bearing again to test the seal, bearing and tapered end of the axle each independent of the others. Jason

10-04-2014, 02:03 PM	#42
Kube Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 9,007	Re: Putting Drums back on Jason, You did have everything together correctly. Removing everything, although time consuming, may prove in this case to be the most effective way to diagnose your issue. The next thing I would attempt is to install the drums on the opposite side - no keys, no seals. If they go on, then install the grease seals and try them again. If they go on, install the keys and yes, try them again. You guessed it... do this methodically and always one step at a time. __________________ "I can explain it for you. However, I can't understand it for you".

10-04-2014, 02:31 PM	#44
em1davis Member Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 49	Re: Putting Drums back on Well I isolated it down to the taper of either the drum or axle. Bearing goes on fine. Need a new grease seal Drum with no bearing or seal does not allow for it to go flush. I guess now I need to pull the bearing from the other side to see if its the axle or drum. Any other tricks before I go pulling the other side? Thanks Jason

10-04-2014, 03:25 PM	#45
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,755	Re: Putting Drums back on You pulled the drum off and the hub stayed on??? The two parts are supposed to be rivetted together by a "swedging" around the studs. You may have bent the drum, which might mean the hub is nicely home where it should be, but the outer part of the drum is still outboard of where it should be due to being pulled out of shape by the earlier pulling attempt. I am only going on my interpretation of what you have written, so I may have got it wrong. Was this the car with the damaged threads on the end of the axle? Mart.

10-05-2014, 05:09 PM	#50
em1davis Member Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 49	Re: Putting Drums back on So I still haven't pulled the other wheel hub. Question how do I keep the wheel from spinning since the other tire is off now? Here are a bunch of pictures and I think they show the drum got bent at the studs compared the one that the hub didn't come off with. https://plus.google.com/112774154315...ts/UThWEc3n1zQ I still want to swap wheel hubs just to make sure before I drop money on a new drum. Any good links out there for new drums? I know vintage precision sells a new drum using modern materials and such. http://vintageprecision.com/products...ums/index.html C&G has some as well http://cgfordparts.com/ufolder/cgcat...&searchnumber=

10-05-2014, 06:44 PM	#51
George/Maine Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mid coast Maine Posts: 1,878	Re: Putting Drums back on It does look like the lever is on the out side my mistake. When you are taking the other side hub off, do you have a puller like the one I bought on epay # 160481319553 Put the tire back on lower and turn puller nut. The key way with the angle goes out to end ,and up for drum to lineup better. Looks like newer remove able drums. Macs has new drums.

10-05-2014, 06:59 PM	#52
dean333 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Shorewood Illinois Posts: 862	Re: Putting Drums back on George, the key needs to go IN WITH THE TAPER TOWARD THE AXLE, otherwise the drum may bind instead of seating all the way. Ditto post #6. Inserting the key wrong could lead to an axle cracking and a potential disaster driving down the road. __________________ Tim Carlig Last edited by dean333; 10-05-2014 at 07:29 PM.

10-06-2014, 04:04 AM	#54
George/Maine Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mid coast Maine Posts: 1,878	Re: Putting Drums back on IF you have the keyway off and the bearing out, put the hub on make sure its on all the way. Then put drum on. If it does,nt go on all the way there must have been a problem before you got the car. With out the bearing and goes on , if the bearing was replaced it could be wrong and to long. should be 1 21/32" A pitman arm puller could be used not that 3 jaw puller.

10-06-2014, 05:25 AM	#55
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,755	Re: Putting Drums back on George, the centre of the drum has been bent by use of the incorrect puller. I believe Jason has found the reason why it wasn't assembling up properly. Jason, the side where the drum came off, has that drum been damaged too? I hope at least that side is ok. Mart.

10-06-2014, 06:49 AM	#56
George/Maine Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mid coast Maine Posts: 1,878	Re: Putting Drums back on Mart It looks like the other drum is off and in good condition. or maybe another drum. I,m going to think something wrong here like a narrow rear. I,m retireing today LOL got me 2 firestone tire coming. I,ll just for fun measure backing plate side to side on my 47

10-06-2014, 09:14 AM	#58
JM 35 Sedan Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Near Rising Sun, Maryland Posts: 10,858	Re: Putting Drums back on One of the drums shown in Jason's pictures definitely looks damaged to me. These drums also look different than any of the '40 - '48 Ford drums that I am familiar with. Are these possibly some off brand after market drums/hubs? Anyone else notice this? __________________ *John* *"Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts". Albert Einstein*

10-06-2014, 11:28 AM	#59
George/Maine Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mid coast Maine Posts: 1,878	Re: Putting Drums back on HAVE HERE A STOCK HUB AND DRUM FOR INFO.1947 FORD 1947 Ford rear brake drum info stock drum and hub. Laying drum down and measure to mounting surface is 3- 3/4" Rear end width from housing bolt surface to inner backing plate is 24 3/8" Rear end width from housing bolt surface to drum edge is 24 5/8" and covers backing plate good.