The Ford Barn

lenmissy · 08-12-2010, 07:13 PM

do skip pumps make 40 flattie run cooler how much are they how many fins do they have len

G.M. · 08-12-2010, 08:09 PM

Len Skips pumps will make your 40 run in the normal temperature range. His impellers are not like any other pump. They are a turbine type impeller with an areodynamic design that smoothly pumps the water at almost twice the volumn of other similar pumps. With no air being stirred into the water like impellers there is better cooling. Water with air becomes larger in volumn but does not cool as good as plain water. I should use the term coolant because I don't want to imply plain water cools better than an anti-freeze mixture. We never had any heating problems in thousands of old Fords with a 2 gallon anti-freeze mixture which also protects the system from corrosion.

frenchy dehoux · 08-12-2010, 11:23 PM

I had Skip rebuild my two water pumps for my Lincoln V12 Hot Rod. With my electric fan it runs at 165 all day long no problems at 110 degree here in Phoenix.

Frenchy

G.M. · 08-13-2010, 08:20 AM

These are not claims but facts backed by many others on this site and other sites as well. Used as instructed they produce at least a 20 degree increase in cooling on 99% of the engines installed on. Shelly never had a problem with me, just a few winers of which I would bet you were one. I never went away, still here and the pumps are still doing what I say they do if you follow instructions which includes a good 4 lb pressure cap or Skips 3 lb valve. I can't help it that Ford never figured out how to solve the coil or over heating problem. Everyone else for 60 plus years also went in the opposite direction saying there was too much water going through the radiator adding restrictors and cutting off some of the already inefficiant paddle wheels they called impellers.The only real simple solution is Skips pumps installed as per his instructions. If there is a problem the customer can call or email Skip and the problem gets resolved. A pressure cap provision is stock on a lot of old Fords and the 3 lb valve is installed with a rubber hose on the bottom end of the over flow tube on early radiators without a pressure cap and is hardly visible or can easly be slipped off for judging purposes. G.M.

Bassman/NZ · 08-13-2010, 04:20 PM

As a point of interest the Bob Drake pumps also have the curved impellers, but have 8 of them.

donald1950 · 08-13-2010, 08:05 PM

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what suprises me is that GM is disrespecting Frenchie, calling him a whiner, when he, frenchie, even states he has skips pumps in his ride. and a nice looking ride at that.

for those of you new to the new ford barn forum, GM (George Mitchell of Skips pumps fame) has a tendency to disrespect any poster that disagrees with him in the issue of waterpumps other than his, and seems to have evolved back into quite a sales pitch as he did on Shellys fordbarn forun, AND SHE DID HAVE PROBLEMSE WITH HIS (yours, GM) SALES TESTIMONIALS AND DISRESPECTING AND ARGUING WITH POSTERS WHO DISAGREE WITH HIM.

here is corespondence from shelly to GM ansking him to knock off the sales and arguments.

Subject: Re: water pump comparisons and sales
Hi Don,
Thanks for your note as well as pointing out that post. I've been out
of town and just returned home so I had missed them.
Please find enclosed a note that I have just emailed to GM (this should
do the trick)

Hello GM,
After much consideration, as well as many emails from Fordbarn members,
the time has come that I must ask you to please refrain from the Skip
Waterpump testimonials in your discussions on the fordbarn website.
Skip's work, as well as his reputation, are in good standing throughout
the antique car hobby and most people will recommend is work/products
when the subject comes up in discussion.
In my personal opinion, you are not doing Skip a service with these
repeated testimonials - let alone the disservice you are doing to the
fordbarn site by bashing anyone that disagrees with you opinion.

lastly, you kow my stance on "business" posts. I'm still not sure that
this isn't a "business venture" on your part.
Thank you in advance for your understanding.

Sincerely,
Shelly

don nettleton wrote:
shelly, with the ongoing post on waterpump comparisons and especally GMs responses to & at tom torget's posts and GMs caustic responses and comments about his abiliy to follow directions i feel is pretty uncalled for. i have gotten into it with GM here and the V8 site about his advertizing, and have been the brunt of some of his anger at my chalangeing him on his continual selling and not respecting the openions of other people. he may be an expert in the world of cooling, but his arrogance and sales pitch offsets his positives on the subject. i know tom and with his last post it just seems as anyone elses experiences, per GM, have no place on the forum. i feel there is alot of good technical information that comes out of GM, but he places himself as the ONLY person qualified on the subject. diffrerent things work for different people and we ALL should respect others openions and souloutions without disrespecting others. you had given GM some advertizing instructions and restrictions a while back. could you again please?
thank you, don nettleton sa,tx

HEY Ryan, maybe there could be some simple rules for everyone who sell on here, like the carb guys and the earley ford garauge, that they just post a telephone number or a website and a simple "call me/us for more info".
i think any consideration would be apreciated befor things get out of hand again with GM.
don

FL&WVMIKE · 08-13-2010, 08:31 PM

donald1950 ...........................
What is your dog in this old matter ?
MIKE

donald1950 · 08-13-2010, 09:26 PM

i am also in the 1% pumps did nothing for my 41 pu.

What is your dog in this old matter ?

mike, i do not have a clue what you are talking about. i do have some cats tho....

Tim Ayers · 08-13-2010, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donald1950

i am also in the 1% pumps did nothing for my 41 pu.

What is your dog in this old matter ?

mike, i do not have a clue what you are talking about. i do have some cats tho....

To Everyone:

Cut the crap. Enough already. Looks like the honeymoon is coming to a close and we're creeping back to same old Cry, sorry, I meant to say Fordbarn.

I'd say if they worked for 99% of the guys who bought them, Skip is doing something right.

Wait, I hear a one of our more notorious vendors crying about the price of cores and french fries at swap meets from over in the swap section.

I got to get off now...

These types of posts are so freaking' tedious!

FL&WVMIKE · 08-13-2010, 10:03 PM

Surely, you guys have heard the expression, "I don't have a dog in this fight". I was just wondering what your "dog" was. ?????
You know, the more you stir shite, the worse it smells.
Everybody should just leave it alone, unless you do happen have a "dog in this fight".
Somehow, I missed where G.M. "disrespected" frenchy. I can't see where that came from. ?????
MIKE

Tim Ayers · 08-13-2010, 11:01 PM

Can't we all just get along?

Lawrie · 08-14-2010, 01:24 AM

GM ,when is skip going to make those curved impellors for the 21 stud engines.
Not that mine get hot.Lawrie

jimTN · 08-14-2010, 07:04 AM

Too many thin skins around here............... I have Skip's products on my Fords and a Packard and they work like they were intended.

G.M. · 08-14-2010, 07:51 AM

Frenchy I do do appriciate your posts of how Skips pumps worked for you in a difficult application. My answer was to a post from a winer like Don. Funny thing I was going to mention that this other perticular winer "Don" would jump in. There are a few that like to jump on the pile after the tackle is made. The post I answered disapeared and some that didn't see it thought I was referring to Frenchy which I wasn't. I only present the true facts and can support what I say. I try to help others enjoy driving their old Fords like I do anytime they want to drive them, not have to wait for certain conditions. How many old Fords were saved from a Chevy engine with Skips parts?? Before some of Skips parts were installed many wives wouldn't ride in the old Fords. I had several wives come up to me at shows and thank me. One said she would follow her husband in their modern car. I have no financial interest in what Skip does or what money he makes. I just enjoy being able to help make these old Fords more reliable and solving problems. If my posts eat at some of these winers so much they don't have to read my posts just move on past them. I see some posts that I don't coment on even though they are way off and when I see their posts I just go on to the next one. The readers can decide for themselves what is fact or fiction. There are many unsolicited posts supporting Skips products and articials in magazines supporting my claims from people I never heard of. Skip really don't need me to promote sales for him as most of his business comes from friends of people that use his products or repeat orders. G.M.

4dFord/SC · 08-14-2010, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimTN

Too many thin skins around here............... I have Skip's products on my Fords and a Packard and they work like they were intended.

And people with too much time on their hands.

denverslim · 08-14-2010, 08:15 AM

Lol!
Kinda like a tupperware party on steriods!...slim

donald1950 · 08-14-2010, 08:46 AM

well, i still hope Ryan will see all the comments on this thread and will set some guidelines for people advertizing and / or promoting products.
i also get tired of GM "whining" about people who question him and his product promotions and tales of wives who call him and then throwing out insults at those who dare to post that his product did not work as promoted for them.
i feel shellys letter in my origonal post to him says it all and is a good souloution.
the other craftsmen on fordbarn and the V8 forum all say "call me" or "Email me", that should be good enough for GM also.
most posters seek to help other people with what worked for them or offer concepts of what to check next. GM seems to take the "help" concept far beyond simple advice with all the product promotions and story enbelisnment.
i do not like to see or feel a need for people to be insulted as GM so aptly does and so i do not mind sturing the pot every so often. that is how change happens. i also would like to see us all "just get along" with out being insulted.
don

G.M. · 08-14-2010, 08:49 AM

Lawrie The configuration of the 32 to 36 heads don't have the room for the turbine impeller. The improved impeller Skip provides in the 32 to 36 pumps he modifies pump about as much water as possible for the early engines. I see him test them and once in a while look over the tests sheets and with him consistantly holding the same tolerances on each pump they all test at 92 Gallons each in 5 minutes. These were at 55 gallons stock before being modified. The 37 to 48 pumps with the turbine are 110 gallons and were 65 stock. The percentage of increase on the early and late pumps are about the same. My early 35 and 36s run a very slight bit cooler then the 39s. The fan is larger on the 39s but is down low on the radiator. A 6 blade on the 32 to 36 provides better cooling at lower RPMs in town. As I mentioned many times my 39 P/U which has the fan on the generator like the 32 to 36 cars has an industrial 6 bladed fan and a shrowd and will run at a fast idle on a 95 degree day for over 2 hours and never get to 180. Some old Ford industrial engines such as Schramm air compressors ran all day at higher RPMs and I doubt they got hot. I happen to have one, it has a BIG radiator and a large industrial 6 bladed fan plus better impellers in the pumps. The 2 6 blade fans I mentioned before on my 33 phaeton and the 39 P/U came from the attic of Schramms parts dept. I know Dick Schramm and a number of years ago he left me go up in the attic to hunt for Ford parts and the blades were the only thing I found. LARGE dumpster loads of new flathead engines and parts were thrown out several years before I got there. G.M.

lenmissy · 08-14-2010, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by denverslim

Lol!
Kinda like a tupperware party on steriods!...slim

sorry i opened a can of worms lenmissy

lenmissy · 08-14-2010, 08:59 AM

sorry I opened a can of worms lenmissy

lenmissy · 08-14-2010, 09:04 AM

sorry I opened a can of worms lenmissy

41ford1 · 08-14-2010, 09:14 AM

Donald1950,

I am going to install a pair of Skip's pumps on my '41 since it boiled over on the NE tour. I will be flushing the system and refilling it per Skip's instructions. I am doing it on the recommendation on the other folks in the tour group. Right now I am not sure if the pumps will completely cure my problem. My truck doesn't run hot if it's moving faster than 20mph. My problem seems to be when caught in a traffic jam or at parade pace. It could very well be the crank mounted fan needs some help. I'll post the results in this thread.

lenmissy · 08-14-2010, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lenmissy

do skip pumps make 40 flattie run cooler how much are they how many fins do they have len

what did i start lenmissy

41ford1 · 08-14-2010, 09:41 AM

Lenmissy,

It was a legit question. The day of the boil over the ambient temp was in excess of 95°. On engines with a crank mounted fan the issue may be air flow at idle. I'll see and let you know here in a few days.

lenmissy · 08-14-2010, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.M.

Lawrie The configuration of the 32 to 36 heads don't have the room for the turbine impeller. The improved impeller Skip provides in the 32 to 36 pumps he modifies pump about as much water as possible for the early engines. I see him test them and once in a while look over the tests sheets and with him consistantly holding the same tolerances on each pump they all test at 92 Gallons each in 5 minutes. These were at 55 gallons stock before being modified. The 37 to 48 pumps with the turbine are 110 gallons and were 65 stock. The percentage of increase on the early and late pumps are about the same. My early 35 and 36s run a very slight bit cooler then the 39s. The fan is larger on the 39s but is down low on the radiator. A 6 blade on the 32 to 36 provides better cooling at lower RPMs in town. As I mentioned many times my 39 P/U which has the fan on the generator like the 32 to 36 cars has an industrial 6 bladed fan and a shrowd and will run at a fast idle on a 95 degree day for over 2 hours and never get to 180. Some old Ford industrial engines such as Schramm air compressors ran all day at higher RPMs and I doubt they got hot. I happen to have one, it has a BIG radiator and a large industrial 6 bladed fan plus better impellers in the pumps. The 2 6 blade fans I mentioned before on my 33 phaeton and the 39 P/U came from the attic of Schramms parts dept. I know Dick Schramm and a number of years ago he left me go up in the attic to hunt for Ford parts and the blades were the only thing I found. LARGE dumpster loads of new flathead engines and parts were thrown out several years before I got there. G.M.

did I start something sorry lenmissy

G.M. · 08-14-2010, 10:05 AM

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41 I'm confident you will see an improvent but as I mentioned many times it still won't be a parade car. If you have any problem contact Skip. The person Don mentioned installed a set of Skips pumps and in a short time returned them with shaft damage. We have never seen this before. Skip repaired them and sent them back and in a few weeks they came back again with the same damage. This time Skip found a large gob of RTV or silicon down in the oil passages on the face of the pump closeing off the lubricant to the pumps. This person chose to come on a forum before getting help from the provider for a problem he created. The problem was resolved at no cost to the customer that caused the problem and I'm sure he now has a cooler engine as I have seen him recommend Skips pumps on other posts. Skip refaces the mounting surface of every pump making a smooth flat surface. The face of the block needs to be clean with all old gasket material removed and a thin film of grease on both sides of the new gaskets provided with the pumps is all that is required for a good seal. Also blow air through the oil holes on the face of the block to make sure they are open. I have an engine that one oil hole was never drilled at the factory. I put an oiler tube on that pump to lubricate it once in a while. G.M.

donald1950 · 08-14-2010, 11:08 AM

the person I, don, mentioned was tom in texas and his problem and your caustic remarks to him that prompted my letter to shelly was on his 36 ford, with 36 pumps, that he was having problems with water blowing out the radiator cap at highway speeds. he may have had other problems with shaft damage that skip fixed, but the specific occourance was your getting nasty with him over his inability of not being able to follow your instructions was that issue. if need be i will see if i have that posting saved at my work computer on monday and i can post the letter and your response, if need be. we will see if we can get the story correct. and i do not believe tom ever posted on fordbarn again after being insulted.
i do also remember your postings with the person who had the plug of silicone in the oil passage and i do not recall, in that posting, of you being anything but helpfull to him and sharing the story on fordbarn of what the problem was for the experience of others.
i did also burn a set of bearings on a new pair of NAPA early pumps once by putting them on dry. after that dumb experiance, i filled always filled the oil hole in the pumps with motor oil and kept topping the oil off every other day and let them sit soaking for a week prior to installing to saturate the oil into the oilite bearings before installing.
don

donald1950 · 08-14-2010, 11:30 AM

in my 41 pick up i had an 59 & 8BA and the bigest problem i had was under 20 mph and in traffic here in south texas with both skips and speedway pumps. air flow is so low and idle and low traffic speeds that the ultimate souloution was speedway pumps and also 2100 CFM pusher fan in front of the radiator.
i had the same low speed heating problem with the 59 motor, the 8BA and then a 350 chevy in it. radiator size and air flow were consistant with all 3 motors. i had a 3, 4 and 5 tube radiator built and air flow was always the biggest factor. like GM says, you still wont have a parade vehicle, but if i had a high volume fan and a shroud on it like GMs 39 truck i am sure things would have been different than with just the pumps alone. i am sure i would have been able to have it sit at idle for extended periods had i raised the air flow, high volume fan, and drawn that high volume of air through the entire radiator, shroud, like he does with his 39 truck.
don

FL&WVMIKE · 08-14-2010, 12:15 PM

One of the biggest reasons people have heating problems, in traffic, and not on the road, is that they have set their idling speed too low. At slow idle, your pumps, simply do not pump water and not as much air is being exchanged in the engine compartment.
Just set up your idle speed and your heating problems may go away. It's worth a shot !
MIKE

lenmissy · 08-14-2010, 05:40 PM

sorry to open a can of worns lenmissy

41ford1 · 08-14-2010, 05:55 PM

Lenmissy
Don't feel sorry. Everyone here has lots of experience and information. Right now I'm makeing like a sponge, taking it all in. Flushing and installing Skip's pumps tomorrow. Stay tuned.

Mike,
I already upped the idle to 700 RPM last year. It didn't seem to help. It always tended to run towards hot when going slow or stopped. On the tour was the first time it puked.

Frank The Plumber · 08-14-2010, 06:33 PM

Thank you GM. .Frank

G.M. · 08-14-2010, 08:31 PM

41 when you fill the radiator it's best to just put plain water in until you check it out for leaks etc. After is ran and tested then put your mixture in. Leave the cap off and start the engine letting it idle filling the water up into the neck, leave the cap off and leave it run at a fast idle until it warms up adding more water if required. The main thing you want to know is that there are no pressure leaks from compression in the engine. The water must be up in the neck to see any bubbles that would come from compression. If the water level is down in the tank the bubbles aren't visible. Small bubbles will go away when you add the Barrs stop leak. We put a large bottle of the clear liquid heavy duty Barrs with the aluminum flakes in every engine. G.M.

41ford1 · 08-14-2010, 09:07 PM

Folks,
Here is my plan:
1. Drain the coolantand save it to recycle. Refill with plain water and 1 cup of Cascade powder. Run this to operating temp + 20 min. Drain and discard. Refill with plain water and run that to operating temp + 20 min. Drain and discard again
2. Pull out the pumps and radiator.
3 Reverse flush the radiator.
4. Check the oil passages.
5. Install the radiator and new pumps. Grease both sides of the gaskets prior to install.
6. Fill with plain water. Run engine to temp + 20 min to check the system.
7. Drain and discard water.
8. Fill sytem with 2 gallons of antifreeze, 2 bottles of purple ice(or equal), Barrs and water.
9. Run it to temp - down the road and at idle to see if there is an improvement.
I will post my findings here.

Stay tuned to this channel

Tim Ayers · 08-14-2010, 09:31 PM

Ah, a happy ending. Doesn't it feel good to share the love?

BillM · 08-14-2010, 09:46 PM

GM, would you happen to have a graph of flow at different RPM's of both original and Skip's pumps you could share?

Frank The Plumber · 08-14-2010, 10:25 PM

Friends:
I never really understood all of these over heating problems with these flat head engines, The part I do not understand is why it is so hard to solve. Granted I am not a specialist in the field of water pumps but as a plumbing contractor who also installs home heating systems I have a good knowledge both practical and theoretical dynamics of the principles of btu transfer.
I will say that I do not have a flathead in my trucks engine bay, I have a 351 stroked out to a 408, it makes a lot more heat than a flat head and it sends that heat to an aluminum radiator. Truthfully I think the radiator could be a copper core and would still be able to cool this engine which I believe generates a higher BTU out put than a flathead does, I therefore do not believe the cooling problem is in the radiators unless you are using a junk radiator that is limiting BTU transfer due to corrosion blockage.
Do the number of fan blades on a pump matter? Not really, the shape contour and RPM at which those blades rotate are going to determine the efficiency of that pump, therefore a pump that has 4 veins, 6 veins or 8 veins should not be considered better or worse than each other without direct engineered application trials. In a restricted system an 8 blade impeller may cause cavitation or pressure bubbles that actually would cause it to be less efficient than a 6 or a 4 vein impeller.
It would be in the best interest of the science of the process to determine where the design flaw exists on these flathead engines. Is it an internal casting flaw? Is it a flow problem occurring as the coolant is being circulated? Is it a flow capacity issue, an operating pressure issue, a fan RPM issue/air circulation issue? I notice some go 90 degrees hard to the radiator, some go 45 degrees to the radiator in their tubing routing, 45 would be best.
I would say that the root cause of the problem would be low water flow or that the problem could be solved by increased water flow. To achieve this you can route your hosing with sweeps and long radius tubing, use the pump with the best flow characteristics that are test proven not just acclaimed, test the flow characteristics of a variety of pump and vein designs at different rotational speeds through an operating system, redesign the fan assembly to conform to a stock yet accepted specification that is efficient and moves a maximum amount of air through the radiator.
Just because something rolled out of a factory 75 years ago does not mean that you should suffer through its use and keep it bone stock as an ill designed system.
The man who has the engineering expertise, and capacity to produce a well designed comprehensive cooling system for these engines is going to make a tidy penny. The man who can design a comprehensive installment guide that is proven through testing and field use is going to be a hero. My suggestion is that from now on we should work together as a group to define exactly how to cool these engines and share proven tested knowledge and data to achieve that goal instead of claims and counter claims. Science.
Thank you, Frank The Plumber.

JM 35 Sedan · 08-14-2010, 10:27 PM

Sounds like a plan Chuck. It will be interesting to read about your results. I know I'm one who kept telling you to get a set of Skips pumps during the NE tour. I know what his pumps and over flow pressure release valve did for my '35 and hopefully you will get similar results.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 41ford1

Folks,
Here is my plan:
1. Drain the coolantand save it to recycle. Refill with plain water and 1 cup of Cascade powder. Run this to operating temp + 20 min. Drain and discard. Refill with plain water and run that to operating temp + 20 min. Drain and discard again
2. Pull out the pumps and radiator.
3 Reverse flush the radiator.
4. Check the oil passages.
5. Install the radiator and new pumps. Grease both sides of the gaskets prior to install.
6. Fill with plain water. Run engine to temp + 20 min to check the system.
7. Drain and discard water.
8. Fill sytem with 2 gallons of antifreeze, 2 bottles of purple ice(or equal), Barrs and water.
9. Run it to temp - down the road and at idle to see if there is an improvement.
I will post my findings here.

Stay tuned to this channel

tom/illinois · 08-15-2010, 12:01 AM

Enjoyed read'em. Worms either dry up or crawl back where they came from.

expavr · 08-15-2010, 01:43 AM

There is a factory installed fan shroud on my 40 Tonner. As near as I can tell all the large trucks had fan shrouds. IMO Ford recognized the need for the shroud to direct as much air as possible through the radiator in this application. While moving the coolant through the block is important, its only one part of the heat transfer system. That said I use a pair of Skip's pumps, a 2# cap, a mixture of antifreeze, purple ice,water and no stats which results in an operating range of 180*-190* from <5MPH to >50MPH in temperatures of 80*+. These numbers tell me that its possible to operate a V8 flathead within a reasonable cooling range over a wide ambient temperature range.

Bassman/NZ · 08-15-2010, 04:27 AM

Frank the Plumber..... there's other factors in this story. Flatties are a fair bit older than your 351, and because they spent most of their lives running on plain water, they have built up a LOT of scale and crud on the cylinder walls. Short of stripping the engine and letting the block sit for two months in a molasses bath, the solution is to leave it there and do everything else possible to counteract it while keeping the engine running. It's the old ambulance at the bottom of the cliff scenario.

donald1950 · 08-15-2010, 08:23 AM

frank, OHV motors take the exhaust directly from the valve port to the header attached to the head without much area to retain and transfer heat within the motor.
flatheatheads on the other hand take the 2 center exhaust ports on each side and run them between the center cylinders on each side of the block and all 4 rear exhaust runners also run through the block at each front and rear on each side of the block all of these running directly through the water jacket. this flows hot exhaust in 6 places through the water jacket transfering alot more heat to the water than the OHV motor where the runners are short and only in the head. couple that to crud in the block that prevents water flow and you now have alot more heat to preheat the water even before it gets to the heads to cool them. couple that to antique, non preformance cooling fins in the radiators, no shrouds to direct air through whole radiator surface as in modern vehicles, pumps that were not as efficent as todays with modern high preformance impellers, and then we have much more efficent fans to draw air, not counting electric fans to assist moving air at low vehicle speeds.
that help explane some? spend a little time looking at a bare flathead block and that will show you alot about why the tendency for them to run hoter that OHVs.
don

G.M. · 08-15-2010, 09:50 AM

41 remember no themostats they restrict the flow of pumps that are designed for more flow. Bill Skips test machine is a constant speed motor and would require a lot of work to change. There are no cooling problems with his pumps as they are.
Frank over 12 years ago I almost got laughed off the internet when we first made the coils. There were 2 posts every day on "vapor lock" and I said it was almost impossible to make vapor lock on a flathead. I tried it on a 95 degree day with a hot car and heated the fuel pump, carb and lines up with an industrial heat gun. I had the gas in the glass fuel pump bowl bubbleing and still no vapor lock. I live in SW Florida and drive my old Fords in hot temperatures almost every day and never had Vapor lock in 30 years. If there was vapor lock it would have to be a fuel restriction where a lot of air was induced, fuel line next to an exhaust pipe or an unusual installation. The car I was testing was so hot I got 20 or 30 small burns on my arms and hands just bumping engine components. Now vapor lock has almost disappeared and if it comes up many others suggest a coil. The reason VL was named as the problem for over 70 years was that when the car stalled from a hot coil it took about 20 minutes to a half hour to change the fuel pump. In that time the coil cooled, the engine started and people thought the problem was fixed as the coil cooled off more when the engine got more cooling air moving down the road.
A few years later we developed impellers that moved almost twice as much water, this went against the "old school" thought that too much water was moving through the radiator and holes were drilled in the impellers, every other blade was removed and washers or restrictors with 1/2 or 5/8" holes were installed in the top water hoses. Prior to these modifications the old Fords boiled over. There is another "statement" that water in the radiator will find it's own level. What the initial problem was is that there are 144 tubes in the radiator that add up tp 3-1/2 square inches of opening. The 2 radiator hoses dumping water into the top tank equals 4-1/2 square inches. Plus the radiator tubes are 2 feet long and have dirt in them which adds to the restriction of flow. This water dumped into the top tank was like putting 4 lbs of poop in a 3 lb bag. The older radiators had an over flow tube off the top of the tank before pressure caps where they then came out of the filler neck. The water backed up and came out the over flow "finding it's own level" and was now over a gallon low and the radiators boiled over. The restriction of flow slowed the water allowing it to slowly go through the radiator and not as MUCH water was lost, the water level a LITTLE higher but still low. Now with a little more water in the system the engine no longer boiler over but ran a elevated temperatures. You will see alot of statements that "my engine" doesn't over heat, that doesn't tell us much. In the old days over heating is when they boiled over. We need exact temperatures to determine what is over heating. I ran around for a number of years with BRAND NEW ENGINE, RECORED RADIATOR and everything in new condition with the temperature gauge within 1/16" from the top which I didn't like. A few times the fluid in the gauge went up out of sight but never boiled over so by the old standards it "didn't over heat". I built a water pump test machine and over a 5 or more year period of time made a dozen impellers and never got much of an improvement of flow. I finially got one for the 32 to 36 engines that went from the stock 55 gallons in 5 minutes to 92 gallons. We had a 33 that was running at 207 on both sides of the engine which are not internaly connected, only in the radiator. We put this impeller on the right side and the temperature on that side came down to 185 and the left was still up in the 207 range. On the early years the pumps will work on either side. We put the pump with the new impeller on the left side as we only had one pump at that time and that side came down to 185 and the right side went back up. In a few months we had impellers made and people began having cooler running engines. Again the die hards started with their doubting posts just like with the coils and at that time I said "TIME WILL TELL" as I knew what the results were. I then started on the 37 to 53 impellers with not much improvment until I spent a lot of time developing the turbine impeller which finially produced 110 gallons in 5 minutes against 65 for the stock ones. THOUSANDS of old Ford owners have installed the pumps and as I said before 99% got in the area of a 20% or more cooling improvement. There have been hundreds that posted the improvements and have written articles. The cooler engine and when I say cooler not just as a term like overheating I'm talking about an engine running in the normal range of the temperature gauge not up in the 195 or 200 area. Down in the 175 range my engines don't burn oil like they did running at 200, the oil don't get black. I just put 1,500 miles of 65 to 70 MPH driving in 100 degree temperature, used less then 1 quart of Castrol 20/50 and the oil is still a dark yellow, not black. When the engine is cool the hood is cooler and air comming in the vent is not hot air. Also the floor and fire wall does not convey as much heat. It was 100 to 110 on two days driving 600 miles each day and it was comfortable in the car as long as we were moving. I have done years of testing and have thousands of cars, not one or two but thousands running for many miles with proven results backed up by user reports. Once in a while we get someone that don't want to follow instructions and makes changes to how they think these pumps should be operated, modified cooling systems, a compression leak or insist on thermostats in hot weather. If they contact Skip these problems are solved. Skip builds the pumps and is the guy to solve the problem not someone that don't understand the entire system with the improved pumps. I can jump in any of my cars with temperatures well over 100 and without the fear of a coil breaking down or the temperature getting much over 190 and go anywhere and they will start as soon as I touch the button when I stop. Frank I solved the problem but don't get a penny out of it but have fun doing it. I do get a free set of pumps or a coil when I need them. G.M.

Frank The Plumber · 08-15-2010, 10:44 AM

Friends;
Is it a design flaw in the head design that causes a poor heat transfer to the coolant, I see many flathead engines that have Ardun Heads, Offenhauser Heads and various supercharged flathead engines making a lot of horse power, the waste of which adds to the heat produced. Is this just a matter of corrosion? If it is a matter of corrosion proper flushing and coolant maintenance would greatly help the cooling performance.
In my case with an ohv engine in a 38 panel it is simple, I have no constraints, I installed an aluminum radiator that is shaped very much like the stock one but is worlds different internally, I have a much more efficient water pump, and I run a coolant as recommended by the radiator manufacturer. I can idle my engine at 1100 rpm, big cam, in this 97 degree weather for 2 hours and just sit there and watch my 30 amp electric fan switch on and off and my stat open and close, she cycles from 185 to 165 in the temp range.
I understand that my system is different than yours but I want you to be able to sit in a lawn chair with an umbrella on a 97 degree day with a nice cold beer or a lemonade and enjoy that sweet musical symphony of clicks and hums to your delight.
If there is a guy out there who could can park his flathead powered vehicle next to mine and join me for a beer or a lemonade and sit there under the umbrella on that 97 degree day listening to a duet of engines clicking humming and singing I would ask him to please share his system specs, his maintenance routine, his block cleaning purge and maintenance routine with the other guys here so they can enjoy life a little more.
I think it would be good to establish a base line of exactly what your block should flow at a minimum, what a good pump should flow, the radiator required and its condition, and shrouding. I realize that you have constraints, you want to keep your stuff stock, but if stock means cooking it thats not good, bend a little.
Maybe GM and Don could put their heads together and between these two very intelligent men they could put together a tech thread that can be referenced by a guy who is new to flattys, you could even put it on the hamb. Thank you, Frank
BTW, just acquired a Desoto hemi, it's a mess, can't even tell it's size for sure, so now I have a fun new puzzle to figure out.

G.M. · 08-15-2010, 11:15 AM

Frank I just spelled it all out for you and it has been tested and proven many times. There are places in the center of the heads and at the rear that I can see with a laser thermometer and could be others I can't see that make small air bubbles like you see in a tea kettle. These bubbles stick to the metal surface on the heads and I SUPPOSE in some areas of the block and cylinders. These bubbles contain oxygen and can cause pin holes. In this case they insulate the metal from the coolant and the metal is not cooled and remains hot. This is the purpose of a wetting agent such as Purple Ice which I prefer, the PI treats the metal surface and allows the coolant to come in contact with the metal. When first installed and temperatures are taken at 5 minute intervals over a 15 to 20 minute period you can actually see the treatment work and the temperature drops. Anytime months later the PI still gives the transfer effect. Sit down and have another lemonade (not to strong) and work on some other problem the flat head cooling has already been resolved. Proven tested results not "I think", or other "WAGS" are the proof of the pudding. "Ask a man who drives one" Better yet ask a hundred or a thousand. G.M.

Vergil · 08-15-2010, 12:56 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank The Plumber

If there is a guy out there who could can park his flathead powered vehicle next to mine and join me for a beer or a lemonade and sit there under the umbrella on that 97 degree day listening to a duet of engines clicking humming and singing

Frank no doubt the 351 is a good engine and has a nice cooling system but if you want to bore it out an 1/8" as my flathead is I will set there and sing as long as you do

Vergil

John R · 08-15-2010, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.M.

.... What the initial problem was is that there are 144 tubes in the radiator that add up tp 3-1/2 square inches of opening. The 2 radiator hoses dumping water into the top tank equals 4-1/2 square inches. Plus the radiator tubes are 2 feet long and have dirt in them which adds to the restriction of flow. This water dumped into the top tank was like putting 4 lbs of poop in a 3 lb bag. The older radiators had an over flow tube off the top of the tank before pressure caps where they then came out of the filler neck. The water backed up and came out the over flow "finding it's own level" and was now over a gallon low and the radiators boiled over. G.M.

GM: I don't really disagree with your statements, but some of them might be misinterpreted. You seem to imply that the cooling is limited by the max. flow rate thru the radiator (size of radiator tubes). If so, then more flow with better pumps would not help (in a non-pressurized system). You might want to clarify this.

Frank The Plumber · 08-15-2010, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vergil

Frank no doubt the 351 is a good engine and has a nice cooling system but if you want to bore it out an 1/8" as my flathead is I will set there and sing as long as you do

Vergil

No doubt Vergil, I can see by the avatar that you spare no expense on your engines, nice piece of equipment, in a perfect world we should all be able to just sit there and listen to them run without a worry in the world, share your secrets with these guys so we can all just sit there like happy crickets.

Vergil · 08-15-2010, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank The Plumber

No doubt Vergil, I can see by the avatar that you spare no expense on your engines, nice piece of equipment, in a perfect world we should all be able to just sit there and listen to them run without a worry in the world, share your secrets with these guys so we can all just sit there like happy crickets.

LOL my happy cricket time is in snatches, I enjoy them when they come by and thanks Frank.

Vergil

G.M. · 08-15-2010, 04:21 PM

John I don't quite follow you. The flow rate through a stock lets say 36 Ford radiator is restricted by the total added up opening area of the 144 tubes plus add to that restriction that the tubes that are each about 24"s long and most have some sort of dirt and grease in them adding more restriction or resistance to the flow through them. Even at the poor flow of 55 gallons per minute produced by the stock pumps through a closed unrestricted meter there is more water pumped then will flow through the radiator and block at this flow rate. If the flow is restricted into the top of the radiator like turning a garden down and opening the drain valve you can adjust the hose valve to let just as much water in the top as comes out the bottom. When adjusted properly you can leave the hose run and it won't spill over at the filler neck. The water allowed in is similar with too much comming in and when restrictors were installed it was similar to adjusting the garden hose. The problem with adjusting the flow less water is being pumped through the radiator tubes and less heat is transfered to the fins and the air over the fins so the engine runs hotter. In the case of Fords with an open over flow from the tank this excessive water free flows out the over flow like it would in the garden hose example. When the over flow tube is blocked either by a 4 lb pressure cap or a 3 lb valve the water can't back out the over flow under normal temperatures and pressures. Normal pressure is less than 2 lbs at 200 degrees roughly.The pressure will not get over this below 200 unless there is a compression leak in the engine. When blocking off the overflow a saftey valve is required, this is the pressure cap or valve and it's purpose is to open and release pressure when it gets to 3 or 4 lbs in the radiator. Without a saftey valve it could damage the radiator or hurt people. With the valve or cap the water is forced through the radiator so more water is going through the tubes and more heat is removed from the tubes and fins by the air moveing across them. A some point the increased flow may be to fast and the cooling effect would not increase. I never got to that point in testing. There is plenty of air for cooling at even slow driving speeds but just about all the fans on the early Fords are border line for cooling for long idle periods on 80 plus degree days. Even driving into the wind cools better then with the wind from behind helping to push the car. More power is required pushing into the wind but cooling is still better going into it. We are not pressurizing the system in the attempt to raise the boiling point, We don't ever want to get near 212 degrees. We are only blocking the over flow tube to keep ALL of the water in the system while forceing the water through the tubes. These cars have a 22 quart system and we want to make use of all 22 quarts not run with 17 or 18 quarts. They can be filled up cold to 2"s from the TOP of the radiator tank and the slight expansion along with close to 5 feet of large radiator hose on some modles take the expansion and leaves no room for air. I hope this answers your question. G.M.

41ford1 · 08-15-2010, 04:32 PM

Wow. We're on page 3! This job took a little longer than I expected. Not hard, just longer.
Temp results
First 20 min. flush with Cascade run this morning (old pumps): Ambient temp 68° engine temp 174°. Cascade did something, The dumped water was cappuccino brown.
Second 20 min rinse cycle with only water: Ambeint temp 78° engine temp 185°.
The dump water was the same color but you could see through it.
Removed pumps and radiator. Reversed flushed radiator. Saw clear water and good flow.
Checked the oil passages(were good) and installed pumps and radiator.
Filled the system with water only and went on the 20 min. cycle. Ambient 80° engine temp 165°
I am using a Craftsman DVM with a thermocouple input to take the engine temp readings. I take the reading at the hose connection on the heads. Both sides are within 5°.

As you can see Skip's pumps do make a sizable difference. I did see the temp climb when sitting at a couple of traffic lights. Nothing real bad just going outside the normal range on the Ford gauge. But today is a good 15+° cooler than the day it barfed. I think a shroud or an auxiliary electric fan may be a prudent addition to cover slow going on the really hot days.
Over the passed few weeks I have seen a number of 39 & 40 cars and 40 & 41 pickups. I have yet to see one with a shroud.
Did Ford offer one?

I'm letting it cool so I can change the water to the antifreeze, Water Weter, pump lube and Barrs concoction. I'll post those result later or maybe tomorrow. It's weird at 5 stores in town that I stopped at, no one at these places ever heard of Purple Ice. I was able to get Water Wetter at last place (Advance). I am going to wait until I get Purple Ice before making the concoction. It maybe a day or so.

Frank The Plumber · 08-15-2010, 05:34 PM

Go to the Royal Purple website, google purple ice, you can get it online.

flathead4rd · 08-15-2010, 05:48 PM

And so the debate continues. Just as it has several time before on different forums and by some of the same participants. Glean what you can from all the above info and go with what works for you. Amen!

Coupe35 · 08-15-2010, 07:22 PM

I have one question since we are talking about cooling. Does 100% water cool better than 50% water and 50% antifreeze.

Bassman/NZ · 08-15-2010, 07:28 PM

Yes it does. On the Purple Ice web page there's a brief study of combinations and the plain water with PI came out the coolest.

BIG MIKE · 08-15-2010, 07:32 PM

Purple ice! Mate, big mike

Tim Ayers · 08-15-2010, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank The Plumber

Friends;
Is it a design flaw in the head design that causes a poor heat transfer to the coolant, I see many flathead engines that have Ardun Heads, Offenhauser Heads and various supercharged flathead engines making a lot of horse power, the waste of which adds to the heat produced. Is this just a matter of corrosion? If it is a matter of corrosion proper flushing and coolant maintenance would greatly help the cooling performance.
In my case with an ohv engine in a 38 panel it is simple, I have no constraints, I installed an aluminum radiator that is shaped very much like the stock one but is worlds different internally, I have a much more efficient water pump, and I run a coolant as recommended by the radiator manufacturer. I can idle my engine at 1100 rpm, big cam, in this 97 degree weather for 2 hours and just sit there and watch my 30 amp electric fan switch on and off and my stat open and close, she cycles from 185 to 165 in the temp range.
I understand that my system is different than yours but I want you to be able to sit in a lawn chair with an umbrella on a 97 degree day with a nice cold beer or a lemonade and enjoy that sweet musical symphony of clicks and hums to your delight.
If there is a guy out there who could can park his flathead powered vehicle next to mine and join me for a beer or a lemonade and sit there under the umbrella on that 97 degree day listening to a duet of engines clicking humming and singing I would ask him to please share his system specs, his maintenance routine, his block cleaning purge and maintenance routine with the other guys here so they can enjoy life a little more.
I think it would be good to establish a base line of exactly what your block should flow at a minimum, what a good pump should flow, the radiator required and its condition, and shrouding. I realize that you have constraints, you want to keep your stuff stock, but if stock means cooking it thats not good, bend a little.
Maybe GM and Don could put their heads together and between these two very intelligent men they could put together a tech thread that can be referenced by a guy who is new to flattys, you could even put it on the hamb. Thank you, Frank
BTW, just acquired a Desoto hemi, it's a mess, can't even tell it's size for sure, so now I have a fun new puzzle to figure out.

Frank:

In short, no.

Read GM's post. Pretty much nails it.

Tim

41ford1 · 08-16-2010, 09:41 AM

I think Don explains the root heat problem in these engines in post 42. The Ford V8s an V12s port the exhaust through the block. I believe that makes fuel mixture and ignition timing more critical in heat control to keep EGT as low as possible. Something else to I need to make sure they're absolutely correct. Most other flatheads the intake and exhaust ports are on the same side of the cylinders.

Any one have any tips on setting the timing with a Mallory breakerless Ignition? I have not found any timing marks on this engine. Will a vacuum guage be adequate to do this? Right now the engine runs well with decent power so I never felt the need to look at the timing. Or maybe I'm thinking too much.

Bassman/NZ · 08-16-2010, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 41ford1

I think Don explains the root heat problem in these engines in post 42. The Ford V8s an V12s port the exhaust through the block. I believe that makes fuel mixture and ignition timing more critical in heat control to keep EGT as low as possible. Something else to I need to make sure they're absolutely correct. Most other flatheads the intake and exhaust ports are on the same side of the cylinders.

Any one have any tips on setting the timing with a Mallory breakerless Ignition? I have not found any timing marks on this engine. Will a vacuum guage be adequate to do this? Right now the engine runs well with decent power so I never felt the need to look at the timing. Or maybe I'm thinking too much.

If it aint broke, fix it 'til it is!

Frank The Plumber · 08-16-2010, 05:16 PM

Popcorn?

41ford1 · 08-16-2010, 06:20 PM

Thanks for the correction in direction. Time to leave well enough alone. Read the plugs all are tan. Runs good, the pumps appear to do what is claimed. Walking away from over analyzing NOW.

Frank The Plumber · 08-16-2010, 06:23 PM

Spark plugs are very much like marshmallows

41ford1 · 08-16-2010, 06:39 PM

Yup. Tan is when they taste best.

Mike B · 08-16-2010, 10:55 PM

GM

Question, how would rebuilt stock pumps perform w/o a thermostat, vs. Skips pumps w/o the T-stat?

I read your results of the temps dropping from side to side, but assume that was with the thermostats in place, which oviously shows Skips pumps can push through restrictions better...but I wonder about the stock pumps with out the Thermostat as a restriction?

41ford1 · 08-17-2010, 06:57 AM

Mike,

My before (stock pumps) and after (Skip's) temp readings were taken without stats. Reference post #51. My stock pumps have 6 rectangular impellers vs. the 6 turbine blades on Skip's. The temp measurements show an improvement with Skip's pumps. Granted, I did see an improvement, results in a different vehicle could vary.

G.M. · 08-17-2010, 09:31 AM

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I just wrote an answer and lost it so here's a quike reply. Thermostats don't cool these engines, just make them run hotter. There are no stats made that will work in 32 to 48 engines with original or Skips pumps because they don't have a large enough opening and restrict the water flow. On 49 to 53 engines prestone #330-160 which have large openings will work all year even in hot weather. Early original stats fit in the hoses and had larger openings but are subject to failure. The brass bellows work harden and split. Stats won't work with the original or Skips 32-48 pumps in warm weather, in winter yes but not when it's hot. The original impellers are paddle wheels slipping and spinning stirring in a lot of air and not able to force enough water through the radiator.
41 thanks for your time and effert in helping support not my claims but the actual improved cooling results these pumps have provided to 1,000s of others. These old Fords in the stock configuration are all the same and the improvements work on all as long as instructions are followed, the system cleaned and the radiator is in reasonable condition. A few people had problems and called Skip and the problem was found and resolved. Grease in the 32 to 36 engine can be a problem. These pumps should not be greased like king pins, just a few shots once a year of a low melting temperature grease. High temperature 500 degree grease pumped in the cooling system will coat and plug the tubes and never melt. Low temp grease melts into a heavy oil and saturates the oil lite bushings. The shaft does not run against the bushings but is supported all the way around in a film of oil never touching each other. 20 % of all 32 to 36 pumps are cracked from the grease pressure from adding too much. Skips welds them and they are like new. Attached is a picture of a cracked pump. G.M.

Mike B · 08-17-2010, 09:32 AM

Seems like good data to me.

(Reply to 41ford1)

41ford1 · 08-19-2010, 07:55 AM

Here are the temp readings with Skip's recommended mix. That is 2 gallons of Texaco antifreeze, 2 16 oz bottles of Purple Ice, 1 16 bottle of pump lube and corrosion inhibiter(I used a Solder Seal Product) and the Barrs stop leak.
Ambient temp 76° Coolant temp 160. This pretty much matches the straight water readings after the pumps were installed. So far so good.

JM 35 Sedan · 08-19-2010, 09:49 AM

Well Chuck, I guess we won't be seeing any more of this sort of thing happening on future tours

Quote:

Originally Posted by 41ford1

Here are the temp readings with Skip's recommended mix. That is 2 gallons of Texaco antifreeze, 2 16 oz bottles of Purple Ice, 1 16 bottle of pump lube and corrosion inhibiter(I used a Solder Seal Product) and the Barrs stop leak.
Ambient temp 76° Coolant temp 160. This pretty much matches the straight water readings after the pumps were installed. So far so good.

FlatheadTed · 08-19-2010, 03:49 PM

GM .in a previous discussion you said that the stock pump (early ) could not stir in air unless the bushes were loose,what did you mean by this . Could you post some info on what RPM you do your tests at.1000 or 1500 or 3000 .?? as flow is only relevant to RPM .You say the stock pump pumps 55 Gal in 5 min .and your one, 95 ?.Something to consider When you sit in traffic you bring the revs up then temp goes down ,This not only flows more water but speeds up air flow .Ted

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.M.

I just wrote an answer and lost it so here's a quike reply. Thermostats don't cool these engines, just make them run hotter. There are no stats made that will work in 32 to 48 engines with original or Skips pumps because they don't have a large enough opening and restrict the water flow. On 49 to 53 engines prestone #330-160 which have large openings will work all year even in hot weather. Early original stats fit in the hoses and had larger openings but are subject to failure. The brass bellows work harden and split. Stats won't work with the original or Skips 32-48 pumps in warm weather, in winter yes but not when it's hot. The original impellers are paddle wheels slipping and spinning stirring in a lot of air and not able to force enough water through the radiator.
41 thanks for your time and effert in helping support not my claims but the actual improved cooling results these pumps have provided to 1,000s of others. These old Fords in the stock configuration are all the same and the improvements work on all as long as instructions are followed, the system cleaned and the radiator is in reasonable condition. A few people had problems and called Skip and the problem was found and resolved. Grease in the 32 to 36 engine can be a problem. These pumps should not be greased like king pins, just a few shots once a year of a low melting temperature grease. High temperature 500 degree grease pumped in the cooling system will coat and plug the tubes and never melt. Low temp grease melts into a heavy oil and saturates the oil lite bushings. The shaft does not run against the bushings but is supported all the way around in a film of oil never touching each other. 20 % of all 32 to 36 pumps are cracked from the grease pressure from adding too much. Skips welds them and they are like new. Attached is a picture of a cracked pump. G.M.

G.M. · 08-19-2010, 05:31 PM

No I never said a pump would suck air in through loose bushings. Someone else stated that and I said it wouldn't happen because of the slight pressure in the coolant system. To reveal the entire test proceedure isn't important, the end results is what counts. Skips pumps are modified to specific standards with close tolances held the same on every pump he does which produces the exact same results on every pump. On a few of these new pumps that are being sold that were sent to Skip to modify after he finished them the test showed a very low amount of water pumped. Upon inspection cast iron deposits were found up in the water passages of the pump on both sides of the center mounting bolt. A hole was drilled in the bottom near the rear of where the hose go's over and a long carbide cutting tool went up in there and removed the rouge casting material. The hole was welded and the pump retested and the flow was what it should be. This restriction would be similar to small thermostats or restrictor washers. G.M.

41ford1 · 08-19-2010, 07:42 PM

John,

The change to Skip's pumps should take care of that problem. I will say I am impressed with the results.

G.M. & Skip,

Thanks for developing a product that works as claimed.

Chuck L.

FlatheadTed · 08-19-2010, 08:47 PM

GM I am not knocking skips pumps but just curious . I thought it was a fare question to ask what RPM your tests are done at. I have a book here that states that the 32 to 36 pump pumps 125 Gal per 5 min, But your new ones pump 95 ??

G

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.M.

No I never said a pump would suck air in through loose bushings. Someone else stated that and I said it wouldn't happen because of the slight pressure in the coolant system. To reveal the entire test proceedure isn't important, the end results is what counts. Skips pumps are modified to specific standards with close tolances held the same on every pump he does which produces the exact same results on every pump. On a few of these new pumps that are being sold that were sent to Skip to modify after he finished them the test showed a very low amount of water pumped. Upon inspection cast iron deposits were found up in the water passages of the pump on both sides of the center mounting bolt. A hole was drilled in the bottom near the rear of where the hose go's over and a long carbide cutting tool went up in there and removed the rouge casting material. The hole was welded and the pump retested and the flow was what it should be. This restriction would be similar to small thermostats or restrictor washers. G.M.

G.M. · 08-19-2010, 10:21 PM

People can write anything in books. If they pumped 125 gallons in 5 minutes stock why do Skips pumps cool better at 92 gallons in 5 minutes? We measured 55 gallons on stock 32 to 36 pumps. I take Skips measurements as more in line with reality as proven by the results. As proven by use of restrictors if the stock pumps pump more they would have cooled better but they don't. With no other improvements it has been proven many times that more water FORCED through the same engine with no improvements or changes other then pumps that deliver almost double the water flow greatly improve the cooling in every case on cars with a 4 lb pressure cap with stock radiators that have provisions for a pressure cap. On earlier models with no provision for a pressure cap a 3 LB check or saftey valve must be used on the over flow tube in order to FORCE the water through the radiator keeping the restriction of the tubes from allowing the water to back up in the tank and excape from the over flow tube. I know this is repetitive but is important everone understands the problem and the fix. G.M.

FlatheadTed · 08-20-2010, 01:00 AM

GM I don't have problem with any thing that improves the reliability of these old cars ,eg Skips pumps and coils ,But when you say yours do 92 gal in 5 min verses stock 55 its not relevant because you don't give the RPM . In the book I refered to it gives 125 Gal in 5 min .This has been taken from the Ford archives.So what's the RPM so we can appreciate that you did proper scientific study . .In this current discussion you say that the stock pump stirs in air ,but in a previous discussion you said air can only get in through the bushes ,?? Ted

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.M.

People can write anything in books. If they pumped 125 gallons in 5 minutes stock why do Skips pumps cool better at 92 gallons in 5 minutes? We measured 55 gallons on stock 32 to 36 pumps. I take Skips measurements as more in line with reality as proven by the results. As proven by use of restrictors if the stock pumps pump more they would have cooled better but they don't. With no other improvements it has been proven many times that more water FORCED through the same engine with no improvements or changes other then pumps that deliver almost double the water flow greatly improve the cooling in every case on cars with a 4 lb pressure cap with stock radiators that have provisions for a pressure cap. On earlier models with no provision for a pressure cap a 3 LB check or saftey valve must be used on the over flow tube in order to FORCE the water through the radiator keeping the restriction of the tubes from allowing the water to back up in the tank and excape from the over flow tube. I know this is repetitive but is important everone understands the problem and the fix. G.M.

barryfromvictoria · 08-20-2010, 02:22 AM

wow! saved from chev engines, keep your wife happy. B.P. should have used skips waterpumps to pump the oil out of the gulf.

FlatheadTed · 08-20-2010, 05:41 AM

GM I am all for any thing that makes these old Fords run good And Skips pumps and coils do a good job ,So I am not saying that they don't work . As I said the Book that I referred to has Ford Factories data from the archives. The stock pump pumps 125 gal in 5 min .you say yours at 92 gal in 5 min was this at idle or higher revs .The book is The v8 Affair by Ray miller you can see all the data in the back.Cooling has always been a problem in Francis and DeAngelis book they talk about a special equipment Radiator with a four inch core was made available produced by long , in about June 35 how many of these do you still see on cars. They thought more tubes were needed. ,Pressurising a system is a way of getting more out of a undersized or blocked system ,All auto makers have adopted it so it does have some Merritt . The tests I have done prove that the stock pump pumps a lot of water .When temperatures rise at idle you lift the revs temp comes down ,What people forget is that there is more air going through the radiator as well as water .,Also part of the problem was that the pumps were sucking therefore creating a partial vacuum giving the opposite affect of what pressuring does,Emmel Zoriline *found this out in 37 when they first did wind tunnel tests at Ford .
* not sure of spelling

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.M.

People can write anything in books. If they pumped 125 gallons in 5 minutes stock why do Skips pumps cool better at 92 gallons in 5 minutes? We measured 55 gallons on stock 32 to 36 pumps. I take Skips measurements as more in line with reality as proven by the results. As proven by use of restrictors if the stock pumps pump more they would have cooled better but they don't. With no other improvements it has been proven many times that more water FORCED through the same engine with no improvements or changes other then pumps that deliver almost double the water flow greatly improve the cooling in every case on cars with a 4 lb pressure cap with stock radiators that have provisions for a pressure cap. On earlier models with no provision for a pressure cap a 3 LB check or saftey valve must be used on the over flow tube in order to FORCE the water through the radiator keeping the restriction of the tubes from allowing the water to back up in the tank and excape from the over flow tube. I know this is repetitive but is important everone understands the problem and the fix. G.M.

G.M. · 08-20-2010, 08:39 AM

Ted with all of Fords testing and these "I thinks" and this is "what should happen" written over the years the part where you said they had some larger radiators that worked but they still didn't know why it worked is logical. The outer surface of the radiator wasn't much larger if any with more tubes so the amount of air over the fins didn't change much but what changed was that with more tubes the restriction of the total amount of area of the opening of all the tubes added together as I described before is greater. With in effect a larger passage through the radiator the restricton was less and more gallons per minute went through the radiator without the back pressure from the restriction of a smaller opening with less tubes. If what you read is correct this was in 1935 and the over flow tube still came off the tank so the tube openings controled the flow until later years when a cap with the "safety valve" was used allowing the water to be forced through. In 35 they also had two differant shaped top tanks, I don't know what this was all about?? I call the early pressure cap a saftey valve because I believe it was used to prevent the water from excapeing at temperatures below where pressure over 3 lbs is produced. I don't know when they started using the "safety" or pressure cap as it is called but I think the bottom seat for a pressure cap in the filler neck started showing up in some 37 radiators but no caps that I have seen until in the 40s. I never researched the caps as to when they started using them but someone else may know the history. I would be more interested on what they used them on first more then the year. I would think big trucks or stationary engines would have been first. There seems to be a disconnect between truck engineers and cars in the area of cooling. I think the problem may have been solved if they were connected more. The truck and people like Schramm didn't completely correct the problem but were close. If they could keep them from boiling over that was great in those days. G.M.

FlatheadTed · 08-20-2010, 03:29 PM

GM two of My posts don't show up ,so I think its a one way conversation .in the back of the Ford Affair is the specs for the early pumps.125 in 5 min .

G.M. · 08-20-2010, 05:09 PM

Ted I don't want to reinvent the water pumps again I already spent years on them and I'm sure you have read many of the posts that support the results. If you want more information to support my claims and results do some testing of your own like 41ford1 did and let us know your results. G.M.

Pothole Jim · 08-20-2010, 07:59 PM

I have read through 4 pages of arguing and I have some remarks about it!

Ted

What are you trying to get at other than continuing the debate? I have a question for you, What RPM' was the test data from Ford?. Without sound information from your reference data, there is no reason to continually bash the subject. If you wish to do a side by side comparison, please do so! Don't try to compare antiquated data from 50+ years ago with that of today's data, it just ain't gonna work! There is no way to repeat the controls and environmental situations that these tests were performed under. So it is pointless to compare them!!!!!

Drop it already, he is not gonna give you the answer you want!! Skip has alot of time invested in R+D to just go and spout out how he did it or how it works, just so someone else can undercut his product and sales. Just install them and follow the damn instructions!

GM,

We get it already, your like a bad cars salesman that won't shut up! Ever hear that sometimes the best way to sell a product is to let the users make their testimonials? Good or bad let them speak!!

Let the real users speak up and stop the endless lectures.

PLEASE STOP THE ENDLESS, USELESS BANTER

One of the great things about a board like this is you can learn from others peoples experiences and mistakes. Let someone else make comments that contribute to the learning, All I have seen for 4 pages is bashing and naysaying. Present the data, maybe defend it a couple of times, but don't make the experience unfriendly. I have a tough stomach and I wanted to end the pain a couple of time about 2 pages ago. Keep up the arguing and such, next thing you will know is that no one is listening and it will be only the few of you arguing back and forth, making this a useless thread, NO ONE WILL BE LISTENING!!!!

G.M. · 08-20-2010, 10:05 PM

Pothole you got the answer for Ted. I don't keep these threads rolling but I have to answer most questions and then explain why. I don't like writing these repetitive posts but you have to realize there are new people on here everyday and most have no idea of how the cooling system operates and the two sides of the engine are separate except in the radiator. I thought this string of posts was over when 41forty1 posted his results. As far as useless banter there are a lot of people interested in cooling problems as shown buy the numbers of veiwers who veiwed them. They are free to view whatever they are interested in or pass on to the next post as I do if I'm not interested. G.M.

Mike B · 08-21-2010, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pothole Jim

. Keep up the arguing and such, next thing you will know is that no one is listening and it will be only the few of you arguing back and forth, making this a useless thread, NO ONE WILL BE LISTENING!!!!

Wrong, we learn a lot/

Had edit you diatribe..

FlatheadTed · 08-21-2010, 01:49 AM

Pothole Jim .Some of us like to have a proper technical discussion .I only noticed the thread late in the piece ,so I want to add my 5 cents worth I have some of my own theories and some proven facts on the subject ,I don't intend to disrespect GM as he is no fool ,and has done a lot of good for the hobby .As I said I don't have a problem with any thing that helps these old cars ,But when someone makes a technical statement they should back them up, for instance some one said that the early pumps have oil lite/porous bronze pushing when they don't ,(unless after market )then I think the hobby has a right to a alternative view . I have no intention of trying to copy his product. I have done some testing my self and have my own pump design and as far as I am concerned the impeller is low on the list of Mods needed .One of the main issues are the bushes wearing out prematurely through the belt ,This I have addressed in mine with rollers. . The book I quoted was the v8 Affair by Ray Miller 125 Gal in 5 minuets at 3000 .RPM .Skips pumps, as far as I can tell are tested at the speed of the average Electric motor 1450 RPM on a one to one ratio . You cannot do a side by side comparison since we are only guessing the RPM.I don't see any problems with using the data from 50 years ago ,Ford obviously worked hard at trying to get them to cool and threw lots $ into R&D ,That why they introduced the 4" wide core for hot climates and trucks , that's a whole extra row of tubes, They new more tubes would help .But if you have more water flow with out more Air then you not going to gain much . Thats why GM has a shroud , We can end this if you like. Ted

Bassman/NZ · 08-21-2010, 02:16 AM

Pothole Jim.... if no-one is listening, how come we made it to 5 pages and still going? You dont like it? Dont read it. I personally find it all very interesting, and even though there is repetition, new facts or info keep on emerging.

donald1950 · 08-21-2010, 09:58 AM

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give up guys,
GM says he does not like reposting information, but he wont stop repeated the sales pitches..
this thread is kind on like reading Glen Becks book "Arguing With Idiots"
almost every post has a GM response arguing his position.
thats one of the reasons why shelly asked him to refrain from advertizing on the old fordbarn. he is like a broken record with the same dribble sales pitch and no real supporting data, just a "because i say so" and "i invented the new turbine water pump so i am always right".
wounder why they are called "skip's pumps" but GM is the only outspoken spokesman. lets start hearing from skip. maybe he will provise tech support with out the all the sales dribble.
don

Frank The Plumber · 08-21-2010, 10:11 AM

If a proper ad space were purchased and a link to a web site or technical site were given with all of the proper technical data no one could question a thing. As it is, it is, a disgusting exhibition of jumping jacks cart wheels and banter to gain access to free ad space. Do a nice tech thread on the HAMB, when some one questions your wisdom refer them to the HAMB tech thread, then you won't have to stand on your head and spin like a top any more, oh wait it does get better, her comes a monkey, oh it's an invisible monkey.

FlatheadTed · 08-21-2010, 02:06 PM

Should we keep going ,?? I tested the stock pumps and you get a spray of water out about 3 ft , Thats a lot of water .I did not take photos but will run the test again this week and post the photos .The other thing that needs looking at on early pumps is the amount of grease that gets in the radiator ,skips pumps you still grease ?? ,before long the efficiency of the Radiator drops of and at a melting point of 180 F its like glue ,I meet Laurie last week From Australia he post on here , he said hes meet George Michelle (GM ) in the US ,he said hes no slug he was driving his 39 and using a stick to work the gas pedal at the time because he had a sore leg . Lauri said I have skips pumps on my 34 I said do YOU think they are any good ,he said Yes they are great. But he put a new Radiator in at the same time so I thought to my self how would one know if it was the pumps or the Radiator that gave the improvement ??? . Does this sound like a soap Oprah ,I am of to a swap meet now so more tonight .

41ford1 · 08-21-2010, 02:34 PM

Ted,
From what I saw the pumps do make a difference. In my application the radiator is the same before and after. Refer to my post #51 and #68 for the measurements. Right now my only doubt is extended slow speed or stopped in ambient temps higher than 95°F. If I still have a problem in those conditions I need to address getting more air across the radiator. More to come, maybe.

Bassman/NZ · 08-21-2010, 03:10 PM

No-one has thus far mentioned that a major benefit of Skips, or Speedway, or Drakes, or Teds pumps is actually the ball/roller bearing and ceramic seal setup. This allows a) to run a pressurized system well above the factory 4lbs without leaking, and b) to put decent tension on the fan belt without leaking.
My C59A in my A is running a 13lb Mustang radiator and stock pumps spray water like a garden hose....

donald1950 · 08-21-2010, 05:58 PM

i do agree 100% with GM on the issue that these cars do not need more than a 3 or 4 pound preasure cap on them. that is only the preasure needed to keep the water in the radiator under 200 degrees. 13 or so pound systems are for newer cars running temps in the 220 to 235 degree range and have closed recovery systems to support emission controls systems found on new cars.
i had a 12 pound cap on my 41 truck and that was with a closed recovery system and modified raidator to support it. the only reason for that preasure range of cap was to support the recovery system on there. that high a preasure cap did nothing to help the motor run cooler. it ran at 170 on the freeway and an electric pusher fan kept it under 200 in traffic on a 100 degree day here in san antonio with a heat index of 105 degrees.
cooling is mostly atributed to the transfer of heat to the water flowing through the block and heads to the radiator, and then the transfer of that heat from the water to the air flowing through the radiator.
thats why GM's 39 truck is able to run cool. he has a full shroud to flow air through the whole radiator (not like the stock fan that only flows air through 40 ro 50% of the radiator) and the high volume fan on his truck to move the maxamum air flow possable through the whole raidator, thanks to the shroud. with or without skips pumps in his 39 truck his truck would still most likley run noticably cooler due to the other two additions.
cooling these old cars is all about heat transfer. get the heat out of the motor with the water and then get the heat out of the water and it will be cooler.
but, there are so many variables, especally on each year of car (size of radiator, size of fan, air flow of fan, amount of air flow through grill, amount of air flowing through radiator, efficency of radiator, amount of crud in motor, amount of crud in the radiator, ect, ect) trying to get it all figured out is why there are so many openions on what works best on each persons car.
skips pumps work great on GMs 39 due to the fan and shroud modification. i did not have a high volume fan or a shroud on my 41PU and skips pumps did not work on it for me. my souloution was an electric fan to move more air with stock type pumps at low speeds. that truck, at vatious points in time, had a 59A motor, a 8BA and a 350 chevy and low speed cooling was the same problem, under the same conditions, with all 3 motors and it all related to low air flow through the radiator at low speeds. all 3 motors would run 170 degrees over 25 MPH, but all 3 needed more air flow through the radiator at idle and in traffic to get the heat out of the water in the radiator.
the coolant recovery system that was on the radiator, with all 3 motors, did eleminate coolant loss and kept the radiator full to the top at all times.
i cannot tell you what will work best on your car and i do not feel that any one person can give the "poof, this will work every time without exception" advice ESPECALLY when dealing with low speed and parade situtations.
my best advice is to try various information from people on this forum and see what works best for your car, in your situtation.
good luck in seeing what works for you.
don

BillM · 08-21-2010, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassman/NZ

No-one has thus far mentioned that a major benefit of Skips, or Speedway, or Drakes, or Teds pumps is actually the ball/roller bearing and ceramic seal setup.

Skip's pumps I am sure still utilize the bushings and not ball or roller bearings.

41ford1 · 08-21-2010, 09:55 PM

BillM,

Correct. They are bushed. Quote from the back side of the instruction sheet "MODERN SEALS, SS SHAFT AND PRECISION FIT BUSHINGS".

FlatheadTed · 08-22-2010, 03:46 PM

Some good info posted here ,from Donald /41 Ford and others
It appears that you need all 4 things More water .More Air .and a pressurised System . Radiator .Its the low speed Parade situation that needs dealing with .Here A picture of a over heating radiator that I removed the top of .You can see at the edges were the original tubes where . Its been re-cored with a lot less tubes larger ,but less than stock .Off the top of the tubes I removed all sorts of crud ,like bits of rubber .Rust scale .Silicone ,Some tubes were completely blocked with Solder,and a lot of grease .I used a lawn mower spring and worked it through each tube , then flushed with Kerosene .Because its been record with a smaller core it confirms my suspicions that this would be the case in many rebuilds .The other picture is of a Ford stock early pump and a later 35 high volume pump with 4 blades .When posting data on testing which pumps are we talking about ,?? Lets here from GM .

Quote:

Originally Posted by donald1950

i do agree 100% with GM on the issue that these cars do not need more than a 3 or 4 pound preasure cap on them. that is only the preasure needed to keep the water in the radiator under 200 degrees. 13 or so pound systems are for newer cars running temps in the 220 to 235 degree range and have closed recovery systems to support emission controls systems found on new cars.
i had a 12 pound cap on my 41 truck and that was with a closed recovery system and modified raidator to support it. the only reason for that preasure range of cap was to support the recovery system on there. that high a preasure cap did nothing to help the motor run cooler. it ran at 170 on the freeway and an electric pusher fan kept it under 200 in traffic on a 100 degree day here in san antonio with a heat index of 105 degrees.
cooling is mostly atributed to the transfer of heat to the water flowing through the block and heads to the radiator, and then the transfer of that heat from the water to the air flowing through the radiator.
thats why GM's 39 truck is able to run cool. he has a full shroud to flow air through the whole radiator (not like the stock fan that only flows air through 40 ro 50% of the radiator) and the high volume fan on his truck to move the maxamum air flow possable through the whole raidator, thanks to the shroud. with or without skips pumps in his 39 truck his truck would still most likley run noticably cooler due to the other two additions.
cooling these old cars is all about heat transfer. get the heat out of the motor with the water and then get the heat out of the water and it will be cooler.
but, there are so many variables, especally on each year of car (size of radiator, size of fan, air flow of fan, amount of air flow through grill, amount of air flowing through radiator, efficency of radiator, amount of crud in motor, amount of crud in the radiator, ect, ect) trying to get it all figured out is why there are so many openions on what works best on each persons car.
skips pumps work great on GMs 39 due to the fan and shroud modification. i did not have a high volume fan or a shroud on my 41PU and skips pumps did not work on it for me. my souloution was an electric fan to move more air with stock type pumps at low speeds. that truck, at vatious points in time, had a 59A motor, a 8BA and a 350 chevy and low speed cooling was the same problem, under the same conditions, with all 3 motors and it all related to low air flow through the radiator at low speeds. all 3 motors would run 170 degrees over 25 MPH, but all 3 needed more air flow through the radiator at idle and in traffic to get the heat out of the water in the radiator.
the coolant recovery system that was on the radiator, with all 3 motors, did eleminate coolant loss and kept the radiator full to the top at all times.
i cannot tell you what will work best on your car and i do not feel that any one person can give the "poof, this will work every time without exception" advice ESPECALLY when dealing with low speed and parade situtations.
my best advice is to try various information from people on this forum and see what works best for your car, in your situtation.
good luck in seeing what works for you.
don

G.M. · 08-22-2010, 03:56 PM

G.M. will let the "guessperts" take it from here they seem to have all the answers but I seem to produce the results. G.M.

Bassman/NZ · 08-22-2010, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillM

Skip's pumps I am sure still utilize the bushings and not ball or roller bearings.

My mistake.

aaron griffey · 08-22-2010, 07:47 PM

Opening cans of worms is nothing new on forums, and it is not new on this forum.
That's how both written and unwritten rules come about.
Some things need to be said.

FlatheadTed · 08-23-2010, 01:22 AM

It looks like this is a dead subject ,We could keep going but there is a enough info given by all contributors to digest .I will post some pictures and copies of data I have quoted in the next few days , Also I might post info on how to fit ceramic seals and roller bearings to your pumps at some stage .just a last comment ,The Radiators that were made for Ford by out side suppliers in 34 were ..Modine , supplied three row ones at 33 a row total 102 tubes & McCord supplied 4 rows for hot places 132 tubes Total,The flathead needs all the cooling it can get ,I don't now of any other Motor that runs its Exhausted right through its water jackets . Pressurizing and forcing water through a other wise poor performing Radiator is one way of getting better results out of it ..I think the ideal radiator needs to be a 3rd bigger than what's needed then temperature is kept constant by thermostats .TS

Ryan · 08-24-2010, 07:42 PM

Geez... Drama... I don't really tolerate this kind of stuff fellas. So, either post productively and uncommercially or don't post at all.

08-12-2010, 07:13 PM	#1
lenmissy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 421	skip wat6er pumps do skip pumps make 40 flattie run cooler how much are they how many fins do they have len

08-13-2010, 08:20 AM	#4
G.M. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Florida and Penna. Posts: 4,471	Re: skip wat6er pumps These are not claims but facts backed by many others on this site and other sites as well. Used as instructed they produce at least a 20 degree increase in cooling on 99% of the engines installed on. Shelly never had a problem with me, just a few winers of which I would bet you were one. I never went away, still here and the pumps are still doing what I say they do if you follow instructions which includes a good 4 lb pressure cap or Skips 3 lb valve. I can't help it that Ford never figured out how to solve the coil or over heating problem. Everyone else for 60 plus years also went in the opposite direction saying there was too much water going through the radiator adding restrictors and cutting off some of the already inefficiant paddle wheels they called impellers.The only real simple solution is Skips pumps installed as per his instructions. If there is a problem the customer can call or email Skip and the problem gets resolved. A pressure cap provision is stock on a lot of old Fords and the 3 lb valve is installed with a rubber hose on the bottom end of the over flow tube on early radiators without a pressure cap and is hardly visible or can easly be slipped off for judging purposes. G.M. __________________ www.fordcollector.com

08-13-2010, 08:31 PM	#7
FL&WVMIKE Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Daytona Beach, Fl & Spencer, W. Va, Posts: 4,442	Re: skip wat6er pumps donald1950 ........................... What is your dog in this old matter ? MIKE

08-13-2010, 09:26 PM	#8
donald1950 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: san antonio, texas Posts: 461	Re: skip wat6er pumps i am also in the 1% pumps did nothing for my 41 pu. What is your dog in this old matter ? mike, i do not have a clue what you are talking about. i do have some cats tho....

08-13-2010, 10:03 PM	#10
FL&WVMIKE Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Daytona Beach, Fl & Spencer, W. Va, Posts: 4,442	Re: skip wat6er pumps Surely, you guys have heard the expression, "I don't have a dog in this fight". I was just wondering what your "dog" was. ????? You know, the more you stir shite, the worse it smells. Everybody should just leave it alone, unless you do happen have a "dog in this fight". Somehow, I missed where G.M. "disrespected" frenchy. I can't see where that came from. ????? MIKE Last edited by FL&WVMIKE; 08-13-2010 at 10:09 PM.

08-12-2010, 11:23 PM	#3
frenchy dehoux Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Queen Creek AZ Posts: 519	Re: skip wat6er pumps I had Skip rebuild my two water pumps for my Lincoln V12 Hot Rod. With my electric fan it runs at 165 all day long no problems at 110 degree here in Phoenix. Frenchy

08-13-2010, 04:20 PM	#5
Bassman/NZ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Napier, New Zealand Posts: 2,001	Re: skip wat6er pumps As a point of interest the Bob Drake pumps also have the curved impellers, but have 8 of them.

08-13-2010, 08:05 PM	#6
donald1950 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: san antonio, texas Posts: 461	Re: skip wat6er pumps Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) what suprises me is that GM is disrespecting Frenchie, calling him a whiner, when he, frenchie, even states he has skips pumps in his ride. and a nice looking ride at that. for those of you new to the new ford barn forum, GM (George Mitchell of Skips pumps fame) has a tendency to disrespect any poster that disagrees with him in the issue of waterpumps other than his, and seems to have evolved back into quite a sales pitch as he did on Shellys fordbarn forun, AND SHE DID HAVE PROBLEMSE WITH HIS (yours, GM) SALES TESTIMONIALS AND DISRESPECTING AND ARGUING WITH POSTERS WHO DISAGREE WITH HIM. here is corespondence from shelly to GM ansking him to knock off the sales and arguments. Subject: Re: water pump comparisons and sales Hi Don, Thanks for your note as well as pointing out that post. I've been out of town and just returned home so I had missed them. Please find enclosed a note that I have just emailed to GM (this should do the trick) Hello GM, After much consideration, as well as many emails from Fordbarn members, the time has come that I must ask you to please refrain from the Skip Waterpump testimonials in your discussions on the fordbarn website. Skip's work, as well as his reputation, are in good standing throughout the antique car hobby and most people will recommend is work/products when the subject comes up in discussion. In my personal opinion, you are not doing Skip a service with these repeated testimonials - let alone the disservice you are doing to the fordbarn site by bashing anyone that disagrees with you opinion. lastly, you kow my stance on "business" posts. I'm still not sure that this isn't a "business venture" on your part. Thank you in advance for your understanding. Sincerely, Shelly don nettleton wrote: shelly, with the ongoing post on waterpump comparisons and especally GMs responses to & at tom torget's posts and GMs caustic responses and comments about his abiliy to follow directions i feel is pretty uncalled for. i have gotten into it with GM here and the V8 site about his advertizing, and have been the brunt of some of his anger at my chalangeing him on his continual selling and not respecting the openions of other people. he may be an expert in the world of cooling, but his arrogance and sales pitch offsets his positives on the subject. i know tom and with his last post it just seems as anyone elses experiences, per GM, have no place on the forum. i feel there is alot of good technical information that comes out of GM, but he places himself as the ONLY person qualified on the subject. diffrerent things work for different people and we ALL should respect others openions and souloutions without disrespecting others. you had given GM some advertizing instructions and restrictions a while back. could you again please? thank you, don nettleton sa,tx HEY Ryan, maybe there could be some simple rules for everyone who sell on here, like the carb guys and the earley ford garauge, that they just post a telephone number or a website and a simple "call me/us for more info". i think any consideration would be apreciated befor things get out of hand again with GM. don

08-13-2010, 11:01 PM	#11
Tim Ayers Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NJ Posts: 6,181	Re: skip wat6er pumps Can't we all just get along?

08-14-2010, 01:24 AM	#12
Lawrie Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Qld, Australia Posts: 4,218	Re: skip wat6er pumps GM ,when is skip going to make those curved impellors for the 21 stud engines. Not that mine get hot.Lawrie

08-14-2010, 07:04 AM	#13
jimTN Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Powell, TN Posts: 2,509	Re: skip wat6er pumps Too many thin skins around here............... I have Skip's products on my Fords and a Packard and they work like they were intended.

08-14-2010, 07:51 AM	#14
G.M. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Florida and Penna. Posts: 4,471	Re: skip wat6er pumps Frenchy I do do appriciate your posts of how Skips pumps worked for you in a difficult application. My answer was to a post from a winer like Don. Funny thing I was going to mention that this other perticular winer "Don" would jump in. There are a few that like to jump on the pile after the tackle is made. The post I answered disapeared and some that didn't see it thought I was referring to Frenchy which I wasn't. I only present the true facts and can support what I say. I try to help others enjoy driving their old Fords like I do anytime they want to drive them, not have to wait for certain conditions. How many old Fords were saved from a Chevy engine with Skips parts?? Before some of Skips parts were installed many wives wouldn't ride in the old Fords. I had several wives come up to me at shows and thank me. One said she would follow her husband in their modern car. I have no financial interest in what Skip does or what money he makes. I just enjoy being able to help make these old Fords more reliable and solving problems. If my posts eat at some of these winers so much they don't have to read my posts just move on past them. I see some posts that I don't coment on even though they are way off and when I see their posts I just go on to the next one. The readers can decide for themselves what is fact or fiction. There are many unsolicited posts supporting Skips products and articials in magazines supporting my claims from people I never heard of. Skip really don't need me to promote sales for him as most of his business comes from friends of people that use his products or repeat orders. G.M. __________________ www.fordcollector.com Last edited by G.M.; 08-14-2010 at 08:15 AM.

08-14-2010, 08:15 AM	#16
denverslim Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ehh...Denver Posts: 196	Re: skip wat6er pumps Lol! Kinda like a tupperware party on steriods!...slim

08-14-2010, 08:46 AM	#17
donald1950 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: san antonio, texas Posts: 461	Re: skip wat6er pumps well, i still hope Ryan will see all the comments on this thread and will set some guidelines for people advertizing and / or promoting products. i also get tired of GM "whining" about people who question him and his product promotions and tales of wives who call him and then throwing out insults at those who dare to post that his product did not work as promoted for them. i feel shellys letter in my origonal post to him says it all and is a good souloution. the other craftsmen on fordbarn and the V8 forum all say "call me" or "Email me", that should be good enough for GM also. most posters seek to help other people with what worked for them or offer concepts of what to check next. GM seems to take the "help" concept far beyond simple advice with all the product promotions and story enbelisnment. i do not like to see or feel a need for people to be insulted as GM so aptly does and so i do not mind sturing the pot every so often. that is how change happens. i also would like to see us all "just get along" with out being insulted. don

08-14-2010, 08:59 AM	#20
lenmissy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 421	Re: skip wat6er pumps sorry I opened a can of worms lenmissy

08-14-2010, 09:04 AM	#21
lenmissy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 421	Re: skip wat6er pumps sorry I opened a can of worms lenmissy

08-14-2010, 09:14 AM	#22
41ford1 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: ManchVegas, New Hampshah Posts: 1,589	Re: skip wat6er pumps Donald1950, I am going to install a pair of Skip's pumps on my '41 since it boiled over on the NE tour. I will be flushing the system and refilling it per Skip's instructions. I am doing it on the recommendation on the other folks in the tour group. Right now I am not sure if the pumps will completely cure my problem. My truck doesn't run hot if it's moving faster than 20mph. My problem seems to be when caught in a traffic jam or at parade pace. It could very well be the crank mounted fan needs some help. I'll post the results in this thread. Last edited by 41ford1; 08-14-2010 at 09:15 AM. Reason: fat fingers

08-14-2010, 09:41 AM	#24
41ford1 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: ManchVegas, New Hampshah Posts: 1,589	Re: skip wat6er pumps Lenmissy, It was a legit question. The day of the boil over the ambient temp was in excess of 95°. On engines with a crank mounted fan the issue may be air flow at idle. I'll see and let you know here in a few days. Last edited by 41ford1; 08-14-2010 at 07:33 PM. Reason: I need a DWIM key (Do What I Mean)

08-14-2010, 10:05 AM	#26
G.M. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Florida and Penna. Posts: 4,471	Re: skip wat6er pumps Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) 41 I'm confident you will see an improvent but as I mentioned many times it still won't be a parade car. If you have any problem contact Skip. The person Don mentioned installed a set of Skips pumps and in a short time returned them with shaft damage. We have never seen this before. Skip repaired them and sent them back and in a few weeks they came back again with the same damage. This time Skip found a large gob of RTV or silicon down in the oil passages on the face of the pump closeing off the lubricant to the pumps. This person chose to come on a forum before getting help from the provider for a problem he created. The problem was resolved at no cost to the customer that caused the problem and I'm sure he now has a cooler engine as I have seen him recommend Skips pumps on other posts. Skip refaces the mounting surface of every pump making a smooth flat surface. The face of the block needs to be clean with all old gasket material removed and a thin film of grease on both sides of the new gaskets provided with the pumps is all that is required for a good seal. Also blow air through the oil holes on the face of the block to make sure they are open. I have an engine that one oil hole was never drilled at the factory. I put an oiler tube on that pump to lubricate it once in a while. G.M. __________________ www.fordcollector.com

08-14-2010, 11:08 AM	#27
donald1950 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: san antonio, texas Posts: 461	Re: skip wat6er pumps the person I, don, mentioned was tom in texas and his problem and your caustic remarks to him that prompted my letter to shelly was on his 36 ford, with 36 pumps, that he was having problems with water blowing out the radiator cap at highway speeds. he may have had other problems with shaft damage that skip fixed, but the specific occourance was your getting nasty with him over his inability of not being able to follow your instructions was that issue. if need be i will see if i have that posting saved at my work computer on monday and i can post the letter and your response, if need be. we will see if we can get the story correct. and i do not believe tom ever posted on fordbarn again after being insulted. i do also remember your postings with the person who had the plug of silicone in the oil passage and i do not recall, in that posting, of you being anything but helpfull to him and sharing the story on fordbarn of what the problem was for the experience of others. i did also burn a set of bearings on a new pair of NAPA early pumps once by putting them on dry. after that dumb experiance, i filled always filled the oil hole in the pumps with motor oil and kept topping the oil off every other day and let them sit soaking for a week prior to installing to saturate the oil into the oilite bearings before installing. don Last edited by donald1950; 08-14-2010 at 11:32 AM.

08-14-2010, 11:30 AM	#28
donald1950 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: san antonio, texas Posts: 461	to 41ford1 in my 41 pick up i had an 59 & 8BA and the bigest problem i had was under 20 mph and in traffic here in south texas with both skips and speedway pumps. air flow is so low and idle and low traffic speeds that the ultimate souloution was speedway pumps and also 2100 CFM pusher fan in front of the radiator. i had the same low speed heating problem with the 59 motor, the 8BA and then a 350 chevy in it. radiator size and air flow were consistant with all 3 motors. i had a 3, 4 and 5 tube radiator built and air flow was always the biggest factor. like GM says, you still wont have a parade vehicle, but if i had a high volume fan and a shroud on it like GMs 39 truck i am sure things would have been different than with just the pumps alone. i am sure i would have been able to have it sit at idle for extended periods had i raised the air flow, high volume fan, and drawn that high volume of air through the entire radiator, shroud, like he does with his 39 truck. don

08-14-2010, 12:15 PM	#29
FL&WVMIKE Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Daytona Beach, Fl & Spencer, W. Va, Posts: 4,442	Re: skip wat6er pumps One of the biggest reasons people have heating problems, in traffic, and not on the road, is that they have set their idling speed too low. At slow idle, your pumps, simply do not pump water and not as much air is being exchanged in the engine compartment. Just set up your idle speed and your heating problems may go away. It's worth a shot ! MIKE

08-14-2010, 05:40 PM	#30
lenmissy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 421	Re: skip wat6er pumps sorry to open a can of worns lenmissy

08-14-2010, 05:55 PM	#31
41ford1 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: ManchVegas, New Hampshah Posts: 1,589	Re: skip wat6er pumps Lenmissy Don't feel sorry. Everyone here has lots of experience and information. Right now I'm makeing like a sponge, taking it all in. Flushing and installing Skip's pumps tomorrow. Stay tuned. Mike, I already upped the idle to 700 RPM last year. It didn't seem to help. It always tended to run towards hot when going slow or stopped. On the tour was the first time it puked. Last edited by 41ford1; 08-14-2010 at 05:57 PM. Reason: Oops

08-14-2010, 06:33 PM	#32
Frank The Plumber Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 693	Re: skip wat6er pumps Thank you GM. .Frank

08-14-2010, 08:31 PM	#33
G.M. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Florida and Penna. Posts: 4,471	Re: skip wat6er pumps 41 when you fill the radiator it's best to just put plain water in until you check it out for leaks etc. After is ran and tested then put your mixture in. Leave the cap off and start the engine letting it idle filling the water up into the neck, leave the cap off and leave it run at a fast idle until it warms up adding more water if required. The main thing you want to know is that there are no pressure leaks from compression in the engine. The water must be up in the neck to see any bubbles that would come from compression. If the water level is down in the tank the bubbles aren't visible. Small bubbles will go away when you add the Barrs stop leak. We put a large bottle of the clear liquid heavy duty Barrs with the aluminum flakes in every engine. G.M. __________________ www.fordcollector.com

08-14-2010, 09:07 PM	#34
41ford1 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: ManchVegas, New Hampshah Posts: 1,589	Re: skip wat6er pumps Folks, Here is my plan: 1. Drain the coolantand save it to recycle. Refill with plain water and 1 cup of Cascade powder. Run this to operating temp + 20 min. Drain and discard. Refill with plain water and run that to operating temp + 20 min. Drain and discard again 2. Pull out the pumps and radiator. 3 Reverse flush the radiator. 4. Check the oil passages. 5. Install the radiator and new pumps. Grease both sides of the gaskets prior to install. 6. Fill with plain water. Run engine to temp + 20 min to check the system. 7. Drain and discard water. 8. Fill sytem with 2 gallons of antifreeze, 2 bottles of purple ice(or equal), Barrs and water. 9. Run it to temp - down the road and at idle to see if there is an improvement. I will post my findings here. Stay tuned to this channel

08-14-2010, 09:31 PM	#35
Tim Ayers Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NJ Posts: 6,181	Re: skip wat6er pumps Ah, a happy ending. Doesn't it feel good to share the love?

08-14-2010, 09:46 PM	#36
BillM Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 504	Re: skip wat6er pumps - Flow graph? GM, would you happen to have a graph of flow at different RPM's of both original and Skip's pumps you could share? __________________ My web page: http://myplace.frontier.com/~wgmumaw/

08-14-2010, 10:25 PM	#37
Frank The Plumber Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 693	Re: skip wat6er pumps Friends: I never really understood all of these over heating problems with these flat head engines, The part I do not understand is why it is so hard to solve. Granted I am not a specialist in the field of water pumps but as a plumbing contractor who also installs home heating systems I have a good knowledge both practical and theoretical dynamics of the principles of btu transfer. I will say that I do not have a flathead in my trucks engine bay, I have a 351 stroked out to a 408, it makes a lot more heat than a flat head and it sends that heat to an aluminum radiator. Truthfully I think the radiator could be a copper core and would still be able to cool this engine which I believe generates a higher BTU out put than a flathead does, I therefore do not believe the cooling problem is in the radiators unless you are using a junk radiator that is limiting BTU transfer due to corrosion blockage. Do the number of fan blades on a pump matter? Not really, the shape contour and RPM at which those blades rotate are going to determine the efficiency of that pump, therefore a pump that has 4 veins, 6 veins or 8 veins should not be considered better or worse than each other without direct engineered application trials. In a restricted system an 8 blade impeller may cause cavitation or pressure bubbles that actually would cause it to be less efficient than a 6 or a 4 vein impeller. It would be in the best interest of the science of the process to determine where the design flaw exists on these flathead engines. Is it an internal casting flaw? Is it a flow problem occurring as the coolant is being circulated? Is it a flow capacity issue, an operating pressure issue, a fan RPM issue/air circulation issue? I notice some go 90 degrees hard to the radiator, some go 45 degrees to the radiator in their tubing routing, 45 would be best. I would say that the root cause of the problem would be low water flow or that the problem could be solved by increased water flow. To achieve this you can route your hosing with sweeps and long radius tubing, use the pump with the best flow characteristics that are test proven not just acclaimed, test the flow characteristics of a variety of pump and vein designs at different rotational speeds through an operating system, redesign the fan assembly to conform to a stock yet accepted specification that is efficient and moves a maximum amount of air through the radiator. Just because something rolled out of a factory 75 years ago does not mean that you should suffer through its use and keep it bone stock as an ill designed system. The man who has the engineering expertise, and capacity to produce a well designed comprehensive cooling system for these engines is going to make a tidy penny. The man who can design a comprehensive installment guide that is proven through testing and field use is going to be a hero. My suggestion is that from now on we should work together as a group to define exactly how to cool these engines and share proven tested knowledge and data to achieve that goal instead of claims and counter claims. Science. Thank you, Frank The Plumber.

08-15-2010, 12:01 AM	#39
tom/illinois Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: southern illinois Posts: 155	Re: skip wat6er pumps Enjoyed read'em. Worms either dry up or crawl back where they came from.

08-15-2010, 01:43 AM	#40
expavr Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Hansville, WA Posts: 776	Re: skip wat6er pumps There is a factory installed fan shroud on my 40 Tonner. As near as I can tell all the large trucks had fan shrouds. IMO Ford recognized the need for the shroud to direct as much air as possible through the radiator in this application. While moving the coolant through the block is important, its only one part of the heat transfer system. That said I use a pair of Skip's pumps, a 2# cap, a mixture of antifreeze, purple ice,water and no stats which results in an operating range of 180-190 from <5MPH to >50MPH in temperatures of 80*+. These numbers tell me that its possible to operate a V8 flathead within a reasonable cooling range over a wide ambient temperature range.

08-15-2010, 04:27 AM	#41
Bassman/NZ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Napier, New Zealand Posts: 2,001	Re: skip wat6er pumps Frank the Plumber..... there's other factors in this story. Flatties are a fair bit older than your 351, and because they spent most of their lives running on plain water, they have built up a LOT of scale and crud on the cylinder walls. Short of stripping the engine and letting the block sit for two months in a molasses bath, the solution is to leave it there and do everything else possible to counteract it while keeping the engine running. It's the old ambulance at the bottom of the cliff scenario.

08-15-2010, 08:23 AM	#42
donald1950 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: san antonio, texas Posts: 461	Re: skip wat6er pumps frank, OHV motors take the exhaust directly from the valve port to the header attached to the head without much area to retain and transfer heat within the motor. flatheatheads on the other hand take the 2 center exhaust ports on each side and run them between the center cylinders on each side of the block and all 4 rear exhaust runners also run through the block at each front and rear on each side of the block all of these running directly through the water jacket. this flows hot exhaust in 6 places through the water jacket transfering alot more heat to the water than the OHV motor where the runners are short and only in the head. couple that to crud in the block that prevents water flow and you now have alot more heat to preheat the water even before it gets to the heads to cool them. couple that to antique, non preformance cooling fins in the radiators, no shrouds to direct air through whole radiator surface as in modern vehicles, pumps that were not as efficent as todays with modern high preformance impellers, and then we have much more efficent fans to draw air, not counting electric fans to assist moving air at low vehicle speeds. that help explane some? spend a little time looking at a bare flathead block and that will show you alot about why the tendency for them to run hoter that OHVs. don Last edited by donald1950; 08-15-2010 at 08:29 AM.

08-15-2010, 09:50 AM	#43
G.M. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Florida and Penna. Posts: 4,471	Re: skip wat6er pumps 41 remember no themostats they restrict the flow of pumps that are designed for more flow. Bill Skips test machine is a constant speed motor and would require a lot of work to change. There are no cooling problems with his pumps as they are. Frank over 12 years ago I almost got laughed off the internet when we first made the coils. There were 2 posts every day on "vapor lock" and I said it was almost impossible to make vapor lock on a flathead. I tried it on a 95 degree day with a hot car and heated the fuel pump, carb and lines up with an industrial heat gun. I had the gas in the glass fuel pump bowl bubbleing and still no vapor lock. I live in SW Florida and drive my old Fords in hot temperatures almost every day and never had Vapor lock in 30 years. If there was vapor lock it would have to be a fuel restriction where a lot of air was induced, fuel line next to an exhaust pipe or an unusual installation. The car I was testing was so hot I got 20 or 30 small burns on my arms and hands just bumping engine components. Now vapor lock has almost disappeared and if it comes up many others suggest a coil. The reason VL was named as the problem for over 70 years was that when the car stalled from a hot coil it took about 20 minutes to a half hour to change the fuel pump. In that time the coil cooled, the engine started and people thought the problem was fixed as the coil cooled off more when the engine got more cooling air moving down the road. A few years later we developed impellers that moved almost twice as much water, this went against the "old school" thought that too much water was moving through the radiator and holes were drilled in the impellers, every other blade was removed and washers or restrictors with 1/2 or 5/8" holes were installed in the top water hoses. Prior to these modifications the old Fords boiled over. There is another "statement" that water in the radiator will find it's own level. What the initial problem was is that there are 144 tubes in the radiator that add up tp 3-1/2 square inches of opening. The 2 radiator hoses dumping water into the top tank equals 4-1/2 square inches. Plus the radiator tubes are 2 feet long and have dirt in them which adds to the restriction of flow. This water dumped into the top tank was like putting 4 lbs of poop in a 3 lb bag. The older radiators had an over flow tube off the top of the tank before pressure caps where they then came out of the filler neck. The water backed up and came out the over flow "finding it's own level" and was now over a gallon low and the radiators boiled over. The restriction of flow slowed the water allowing it to slowly go through the radiator and not as MUCH water was lost, the water level a LITTLE higher but still low. Now with a little more water in the system the engine no longer boiler over but ran a elevated temperatures. You will see alot of statements that "my engine" doesn't over heat, that doesn't tell us much. In the old days over heating is when they boiled over. We need exact temperatures to determine what is over heating. I ran around for a number of years with BRAND NEW ENGINE, RECORED RADIATOR and everything in new condition with the temperature gauge within 1/16" from the top which I didn't like. A few times the fluid in the gauge went up out of sight but never boiled over so by the old standards it "didn't over heat". I built a water pump test machine and over a 5 or more year period of time made a dozen impellers and never got much of an improvement of flow. I finially got one for the 32 to 36 engines that went from the stock 55 gallons in 5 minutes to 92 gallons. We had a 33 that was running at 207 on both sides of the engine which are not internaly connected, only in the radiator. We put this impeller on the right side and the temperature on that side came down to 185 and the left was still up in the 207 range. On the early years the pumps will work on either side. We put the pump with the new impeller on the left side as we only had one pump at that time and that side came down to 185 and the right side went back up. In a few months we had impellers made and people began having cooler running engines. Again the die hards started with their doubting posts just like with the coils and at that time I said "TIME WILL TELL" as I knew what the results were. I then started on the 37 to 53 impellers with not much improvment until I spent a lot of time developing the turbine impeller which finially produced 110 gallons in 5 minutes against 65 for the stock ones. THOUSANDS of old Ford owners have installed the pumps and as I said before 99% got in the area of a 20% or more cooling improvement. There have been hundreds that posted the improvements and have written articles. The cooler engine and when I say cooler not just as a term like overheating I'm talking about an engine running in the normal range of the temperature gauge not up in the 195 or 200 area. Down in the 175 range my engines don't burn oil like they did running at 200, the oil don't get black. I just put 1,500 miles of 65 to 70 MPH driving in 100 degree temperature, used less then 1 quart of Castrol 20/50 and the oil is still a dark yellow, not black. When the engine is cool the hood is cooler and air comming in the vent is not hot air. Also the floor and fire wall does not convey as much heat. It was 100 to 110 on two days driving 600 miles each day and it was comfortable in the car as long as we were moving. I have done years of testing and have thousands of cars, not one or two but thousands running for many miles with proven results backed up by user reports. Once in a while we get someone that don't want to follow instructions and makes changes to how they think these pumps should be operated, modified cooling systems, a compression leak or insist on thermostats in hot weather. If they contact Skip these problems are solved. Skip builds the pumps and is the guy to solve the problem not someone that don't understand the entire system with the improved pumps. I can jump in any of my cars with temperatures well over 100 and without the fear of a coil breaking down or the temperature getting much over 190 and go anywhere and they will start as soon as I touch the button when I stop. Frank I solved the problem but don't get a penny out of it but have fun doing it. I do get a free set of pumps or a coil when I need them. G.M. __________________ www.fordcollector.com Last edited by G.M.; 08-15-2010 at 10:05 AM.