skip wat6er pumps

[Pothole Jim]

I have read through 4 pages of arguing and I have some remarks about it!

Ted

What are you trying to get at other than continuing the debate? I have a question for you, What RPM' was the test data from Ford?. Without sound information from your reference data, there is no reason to continually bash the subject. If you wish to do a side by side comparison, please do so! Don't try to compare antiquated data from 50+ years ago with that of today's data, it just ain't gonna work! There is no way to repeat the controls and environmental situations that these tests were performed under. So it is pointless to compare them!!!!!

Drop it already, he is not gonna give you the answer you want!! Skip has alot of time invested in R+D to just go and spout out how he did it or how it works, just so someone else can undercut his product and sales. Just install them and follow the damn instructions!


GM,

We get it already, your like a bad cars salesman that won't shut up! Ever hear that sometimes the best way to sell a product is to let the users make their testimonials? Good or bad let them speak!!

Let the real users speak up and stop the endless lectures.


PLEASE STOP THE ENDLESS, USELESS BANTER


One of the great things about a board like this is you can learn from others peoples experiences and mistakes. Let someone else make comments that contribute to the learning, All I have seen for 4 pages is bashing and naysaying. Present the data, maybe defend it a couple of times, but don't make the experience unfriendly. I have a tough stomach and I wanted to end the pain a couple of time about 2 pages ago. Keep up the arguing and such, next thing you will know is that no one is listening and it will be only the few of you arguing back and forth, making this a useless thread, NO ONE WILL BE LISTENING!!!!

[G.M.]

Pothole you got the answer for Ted. I don't keep these threads rolling but I have to answer most questions and then explain why. I don't like writing these repetitive posts but you have to realize there are new people on here everyday and most have no idea of how the cooling system operates and the two sides of the engine are separate except in the radiator. I thought this string of posts was over when 41forty1 posted his results. As far as useless banter there are a lot of people interested in cooling problems as shown buy the numbers of veiwers who veiwed them. They are free to view whatever they are interested in or pass on to the next post as I do if I'm not interested. G.M.

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by Pothole Jim

. Keep up the arguing and such, next thing you will know is that no one is listening and it will be only the few of you arguing back and forth, making this a useless thread, NO ONE WILL BE LISTENING!!!!

Wrong, we learn a lot/

Had edit you diatribe..

[FlatheadTed]

Pothole Jim .Some of us like to have a proper technical discussion .I only noticed the thread late in the piece ,so I want to add my 5 cents worth I have some of my own theories and some proven facts on the subject ,I don't intend to disrespect GM as he is no fool ,and has done a lot of good for the hobby .As I said I don't have a problem with any thing that helps these old cars ,But when someone makes a technical statement they should back them up, for instance some one said that the early pumps have oil lite/porous bronze pushing when they don't ,(unless after market )then I think the hobby has a right to a alternative view . I have no intention of trying to copy his product. I have done some testing my self and have my own pump design and as far as I am concerned the impeller is low on the list of Mods needed .One of the main issues are the bushes wearing out prematurely through the belt ,This I have addressed in mine with rollers. . The book I quoted was the v8 Affair by Ray Miller 125 Gal in 5 minuets at 3000 .RPM .Skips pumps, as far as I can tell are tested at the speed of the average Electric motor 1450 RPM on a one to one ratio . You cannot do a side by side comparison since we are only guessing the RPM.I don't see any problems with using the data from 50 years ago ,Ford obviously worked hard at trying to get them to cool and threw lots $ into R&D ,That why they introduced the 4" wide core for hot climates and trucks , that's a whole extra row of tubes, They new more tubes would help .But if you have more water flow with out more Air then you not going to gain much . Thats why GM has a shroud , We can end this if you like. Ted

[Bassman/NZ]

Pothole Jim.... if no-one is listening, how come we made it to 5 pages and still going? You dont like it? Dont read it. I personally find it all very interesting, and even though there is repetition, new facts or info keep on emerging.

[donald1950]

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give up guys,
GM says he does not like reposting information, but he wont stop repeated the sales pitches..
this thread is kind on like reading Glen Becks book "Arguing With Idiots"
almost every post has a GM response arguing his position.
thats one of the reasons why shelly asked him to refrain from advertizing on the old fordbarn. he is like a broken record with the same dribble sales pitch and no real supporting data, just a "because i say so" and "i invented the new turbine water pump so i am always right".
wounder why they are called "skip's pumps" but GM is the only outspoken spokesman. lets start hearing from skip. maybe he will provise tech support with out the all the sales dribble.
don

[Frank The Plumber]

If a proper ad space were purchased and a link to a web site or technical site were given with all of the proper technical data no one could question a thing. As it is, it is, a disgusting exhibition of jumping jacks cart wheels and banter to gain access to free ad space. Do a nice tech thread on the HAMB, when some one questions your wisdom refer them to the HAMB tech thread, then you won't have to stand on your head and spin like a top any more, oh wait it does get better, her comes a monkey, oh it's an invisible monkey.

[FlatheadTed]

Should we keep going ,?? I tested the stock pumps and you get a spray of water out about 3 ft , Thats a lot of water .I did not take photos but will run the test again this week and post the photos .The other thing that needs looking at on early pumps is the amount of grease that gets in the radiator ,skips pumps you still grease ?? ,before long the efficiency of the Radiator drops of and at a melting point of 180 F its like glue ,I meet Laurie last week From Australia he post on here , he said hes meet George Michelle (GM ) in the US ,he said hes no slug he was driving his 39 and using a stick to work the gas pedal at the time because he had a sore leg . Lauri said I have skips pumps on my 34 I said do YOU think they are any good ,he said Yes they are great. But he put a new Radiator in at the same time so I thought to my self how would one know if it was the pumps or the Radiator that gave the improvement ??? . Does this sound like a soap Oprah ,I am of to a swap meet now so more tonight .

[41ford1]

Ted,
From what I saw the pumps do make a difference. In my application the radiator is the same before and after. Refer to my post #51 and #68 for the measurements. Right now my only doubt is extended slow speed or stopped in ambient temps higher than 95°F. If I still have a problem in those conditions I need to address getting more air across the radiator. More to come, maybe.

[Bassman/NZ]

No-one has thus far mentioned that a major benefit of Skips, or Speedway, or Drakes, or Teds pumps is actually the ball/roller bearing and ceramic seal setup. This allows a) to run a pressurized system well above the factory 4lbs without leaking, and b) to put decent tension on the fan belt without leaking.
My C59A in my A is running a 13lb Mustang radiator and stock pumps spray water like a garden hose....

[donald1950]

i do agree 100% with GM on the issue that these cars do not need more than a 3 or 4 pound preasure cap on them. that is only the preasure needed to keep the water in the radiator under 200 degrees. 13 or so pound systems are for newer cars running temps in the 220 to 235 degree range and have closed recovery systems to support emission controls systems found on new cars.
i had a 12 pound cap on my 41 truck and that was with a closed recovery system and modified raidator to support it. the only reason for that preasure range of cap was to support the recovery system on there. that high a preasure cap did nothing to help the motor run cooler. it ran at 170 on the freeway and an electric pusher fan kept it under 200 in traffic on a 100 degree day here in san antonio with a heat index of 105 degrees.
cooling is mostly atributed to the transfer of heat to the water flowing through the block and heads to the radiator, and then the transfer of that heat from the water to the air flowing through the radiator.
thats why GM's 39 truck is able to run cool. he has a full shroud to flow air through the whole radiator (not like the stock fan that only flows air through 40 ro 50% of the radiator) and the high volume fan on his truck to move the maxamum air flow possable through the whole raidator, thanks to the shroud. with or without skips pumps in his 39 truck his truck would still most likley run noticably cooler due to the other two additions.
cooling these old cars is all about heat transfer. get the heat out of the motor with the water and then get the heat out of the water and it will be cooler.
but, there are so many variables, especally on each year of car (size of radiator, size of fan, air flow of fan, amount of air flow through grill, amount of air flowing through radiator, efficency of radiator, amount of crud in motor, amount of crud in the radiator, ect, ect) trying to get it all figured out is why there are so many openions on what works best on each persons car.
skips pumps work great on GMs 39 due to the fan and shroud modification. i did not have a high volume fan or a shroud on my 41PU and skips pumps did not work on it for me. my souloution was an electric fan to move more air with stock type pumps at low speeds. that truck, at vatious points in time, had a 59A motor, a 8BA and a 350 chevy and low speed cooling was the same problem, under the same conditions, with all 3 motors and it all related to low air flow through the radiator at low speeds. all 3 motors would run 170 degrees over 25 MPH, but all 3 needed more air flow through the radiator at idle and in traffic to get the heat out of the water in the radiator.
the coolant recovery system that was on the radiator, with all 3 motors, did eleminate coolant loss and kept the radiator full to the top at all times.
i cannot tell you what will work best on your car and i do not feel that any one person can give the "poof, this will work every time without exception" advice ESPECALLY when dealing with low speed and parade situtations.
my best advice is to try various information from people on this forum and see what works best for your car, in your situtation.
good luck in seeing what works for you.
don

[BillM]

Originally Posted by Bassman/NZ

No-one has thus far mentioned that a major benefit of Skips, or Speedway, or Drakes, or Teds pumps is actually the ball/roller bearing and ceramic seal setup.

Skip's pumps I am sure still utilize the bushings and not ball or roller bearings.

[41ford1]

BillM,

Correct. They are bushed. Quote from the back side of the instruction sheet "MODERN SEALS, SS SHAFT AND PRECISION FIT BUSHINGS".

[FlatheadTed]

Some good info posted here ,from Donald /41 Ford and others
It appears that you need all 4 things More water .More Air .and a pressurised System . Radiator .Its the low speed Parade situation that needs dealing with .Here A picture of a over heating radiator that I removed the top of .You can see at the edges were the original tubes where . Its been re-cored with a lot less tubes larger ,but less than stock .Off the top of the tubes I removed all sorts of crud ,like bits of rubber .Rust scale .Silicone ,Some tubes were completely blocked with Solder,and a lot of grease .I used a lawn mower spring and worked it through each tube , then flushed with Kerosene .Because its been record with a smaller core it confirms my suspicions that this would be the case in many rebuilds .The other picture is of a Ford stock early pump and a later 35 high volume pump with 4 blades .When posting data on testing which pumps are we talking about ,?? Lets here from GM .

Originally Posted by donald1950

i do agree 100% with GM on the issue that these cars do not need more than a 3 or 4 pound preasure cap on them. that is only the preasure needed to keep the water in the radiator under 200 degrees. 13 or so pound systems are for newer cars running temps in the 220 to 235 degree range and have closed recovery systems to support emission controls systems found on new cars.
i had a 12 pound cap on my 41 truck and that was with a closed recovery system and modified raidator to support it. the only reason for that preasure range of cap was to support the recovery system on there. that high a preasure cap did nothing to help the motor run cooler. it ran at 170 on the freeway and an electric pusher fan kept it under 200 in traffic on a 100 degree day here in san antonio with a heat index of 105 degrees.
cooling is mostly atributed to the transfer of heat to the water flowing through the block and heads to the radiator, and then the transfer of that heat from the water to the air flowing through the radiator.
thats why GM's 39 truck is able to run cool. he has a full shroud to flow air through the whole radiator (not like the stock fan that only flows air through 40 ro 50% of the radiator) and the high volume fan on his truck to move the maxamum air flow possable through the whole raidator, thanks to the shroud. with or without skips pumps in his 39 truck his truck would still most likley run noticably cooler due to the other two additions.
cooling these old cars is all about heat transfer. get the heat out of the motor with the water and then get the heat out of the water and it will be cooler.
but, there are so many variables, especally on each year of car (size of radiator, size of fan, air flow of fan, amount of air flow through grill, amount of air flowing through radiator, efficency of radiator, amount of crud in motor, amount of crud in the radiator, ect, ect) trying to get it all figured out is why there are so many openions on what works best on each persons car.
skips pumps work great on GMs 39 due to the fan and shroud modification. i did not have a high volume fan or a shroud on my 41PU and skips pumps did not work on it for me. my souloution was an electric fan to move more air with stock type pumps at low speeds. that truck, at vatious points in time, had a 59A motor, a 8BA and a 350 chevy and low speed cooling was the same problem, under the same conditions, with all 3 motors and it all related to low air flow through the radiator at low speeds. all 3 motors would run 170 degrees over 25 MPH, but all 3 needed more air flow through the radiator at idle and in traffic to get the heat out of the water in the radiator.
the coolant recovery system that was on the radiator, with all 3 motors, did eleminate coolant loss and kept the radiator full to the top at all times.
i cannot tell you what will work best on your car and i do not feel that any one person can give the "poof, this will work every time without exception" advice ESPECALLY when dealing with low speed and parade situtations.
my best advice is to try various information from people on this forum and see what works best for your car, in your situtation.
good luck in seeing what works for you.
don

[G.M.]

G.M. will let the "guessperts" take it from here they seem to have all the answers but I seem to produce the results. G.M.

[Bassman/NZ]

Originally Posted by BillM

Skip's pumps I am sure still utilize the bushings and not ball or roller bearings.

My mistake.

[aaron griffey]

Opening cans of worms is nothing new on forums, and it is not new on this forum.
That's how both written and unwritten rules come about.
Some things need to be said.

[FlatheadTed]

It looks like this is a dead subject ,We could keep going but there is a enough info given by all contributors to digest .I will post some pictures and copies of data I have quoted in the next few days , Also I might post info on how to fit ceramic seals and roller bearings to your pumps at some stage .just a last comment ,The Radiators that were made for Ford by out side suppliers in 34 were ..Modine , supplied three row ones at 33 a row total 102 tubes & McCord supplied 4 rows for hot places 132 tubes Total,The flathead needs all the cooling it can get ,I don't now of any other Motor that runs its Exhausted right through its water jackets . Pressurizing and forcing water through a other wise poor performing Radiator is one way of getting better results out of it ..I think the ideal radiator needs to be a 3rd bigger than what's needed then temperature is kept constant by thermostats .TS

[Ryan]

Geez... Drama... I don't really tolerate this kind of stuff fellas. So, either post productively and uncommercially or don't post at all.