skip wat6er pumps

[Bassman/NZ]

Frank the Plumber..... there's other factors in this story. Flatties are a fair bit older than your 351, and because they spent most of their lives running on plain water, they have built up a LOT of scale and crud on the cylinder walls. Short of stripping the engine and letting the block sit for two months in a molasses bath, the solution is to leave it there and do everything else possible to counteract it while keeping the engine running. It's the old ambulance at the bottom of the cliff scenario.

[donald1950]

frank, OHV motors take the exhaust directly from the valve port to the header attached to the head without much area to retain and transfer heat within the motor.
flatheatheads on the other hand take the 2 center exhaust ports on each side and run them between the center cylinders on each side of the block and all 4 rear exhaust runners also run through the block at each front and rear on each side of the block all of these running directly through the water jacket. this flows hot exhaust in 6 places through the water jacket transfering alot more heat to the water than the OHV motor where the runners are short and only in the head. couple that to crud in the block that prevents water flow and you now have alot more heat to preheat the water even before it gets to the heads to cool them. couple that to antique, non preformance cooling fins in the radiators, no shrouds to direct air through whole radiator surface as in modern vehicles, pumps that were not as efficent as todays with modern high preformance impellers, and then we have much more efficent fans to draw air, not counting electric fans to assist moving air at low vehicle speeds.
that help explane some? spend a little time looking at a bare flathead block and that will show you alot about why the tendency for them to run hoter that OHVs.
don

[G.M.]

41 remember no themostats they restrict the flow of pumps that are designed for more flow. Bill Skips test machine is a constant speed motor and would require a lot of work to change. There are no cooling problems with his pumps as they are.
Frank over 12 years ago I almost got laughed off the internet when we first made the coils. There were 2 posts every day on "vapor lock" and I said it was almost impossible to make vapor lock on a flathead. I tried it on a 95 degree day with a hot car and heated the fuel pump, carb and lines up with an industrial heat gun. I had the gas in the glass fuel pump bowl bubbleing and still no vapor lock. I live in SW Florida and drive my old Fords in hot temperatures almost every day and never had Vapor lock in 30 years. If there was vapor lock it would have to be a fuel restriction where a lot of air was induced, fuel line next to an exhaust pipe or an unusual installation. The car I was testing was so hot I got 20 or 30 small burns on my arms and hands just bumping engine components. Now vapor lock has almost disappeared and if it comes up many others suggest a coil. The reason VL was named as the problem for over 70 years was that when the car stalled from a hot coil it took about 20 minutes to a half hour to change the fuel pump. In that time the coil cooled, the engine started and people thought the problem was fixed as the coil cooled off more when the engine got more cooling air moving down the road.
A few years later we developed impellers that moved almost twice as much water, this went against the "old school" thought that too much water was moving through the radiator and holes were drilled in the impellers, every other blade was removed and washers or restrictors with 1/2 or 5/8" holes were installed in the top water hoses. Prior to these modifications the old Fords boiled over. There is another "statement" that water in the radiator will find it's own level. What the initial problem was is that there are 144 tubes in the radiator that add up tp 3-1/2 square inches of opening. The 2 radiator hoses dumping water into the top tank equals 4-1/2 square inches. Plus the radiator tubes are 2 feet long and have dirt in them which adds to the restriction of flow. This water dumped into the top tank was like putting 4 lbs of poop in a 3 lb bag. The older radiators had an over flow tube off the top of the tank before pressure caps where they then came out of the filler neck. The water backed up and came out the over flow "finding it's own level" and was now over a gallon low and the radiators boiled over. The restriction of flow slowed the water allowing it to slowly go through the radiator and not as MUCH water was lost, the water level a LITTLE higher but still low. Now with a little more water in the system the engine no longer boiler over but ran a elevated temperatures. You will see alot of statements that "my engine" doesn't over heat, that doesn't tell us much. In the old days over heating is when they boiled over. We need exact temperatures to determine what is over heating. I ran around for a number of years with BRAND NEW ENGINE, RECORED RADIATOR and everything in new condition with the temperature gauge within 1/16" from the top which I didn't like. A few times the fluid in the gauge went up out of sight but never boiled over so by the old standards it "didn't over heat". I built a water pump test machine and over a 5 or more year period of time made a dozen impellers and never got much of an improvement of flow. I finially got one for the 32 to 36 engines that went from the stock 55 gallons in 5 minutes to 92 gallons. We had a 33 that was running at 207 on both sides of the engine which are not internaly connected, only in the radiator. We put this impeller on the right side and the temperature on that side came down to 185 and the left was still up in the 207 range. On the early years the pumps will work on either side. We put the pump with the new impeller on the left side as we only had one pump at that time and that side came down to 185 and the right side went back up. In a few months we had impellers made and people began having cooler running engines. Again the die hards started with their doubting posts just like with the coils and at that time I said "TIME WILL TELL" as I knew what the results were. I then started on the 37 to 53 impellers with not much improvment until I spent a lot of time developing the turbine impeller which finially produced 110 gallons in 5 minutes against 65 for the stock ones. THOUSANDS of old Ford owners have installed the pumps and as I said before 99% got in the area of a 20% or more cooling improvement. There have been hundreds that posted the improvements and have written articles. The cooler engine and when I say cooler not just as a term like overheating I'm talking about an engine running in the normal range of the temperature gauge not up in the 195 or 200 area. Down in the 175 range my engines don't burn oil like they did running at 200, the oil don't get black. I just put 1,500 miles of 65 to 70 MPH driving in 100 degree temperature, used less then 1 quart of Castrol 20/50 and the oil is still a dark yellow, not black. When the engine is cool the hood is cooler and air comming in the vent is not hot air. Also the floor and fire wall does not convey as much heat. It was 100 to 110 on two days driving 600 miles each day and it was comfortable in the car as long as we were moving. I have done years of testing and have thousands of cars, not one or two but thousands running for many miles with proven results backed up by user reports. Once in a while we get someone that don't want to follow instructions and makes changes to how they think these pumps should be operated, modified cooling systems, a compression leak or insist on thermostats in hot weather. If they contact Skip these problems are solved. Skip builds the pumps and is the guy to solve the problem not someone that don't understand the entire system with the improved pumps. I can jump in any of my cars with temperatures well over 100 and without the fear of a coil breaking down or the temperature getting much over 190 and go anywhere and they will start as soon as I touch the button when I stop. Frank I solved the problem but don't get a penny out of it but have fun doing it. I do get a free set of pumps or a coil when I need them. G.M.

[Frank The Plumber]

Friends;
Is it a design flaw in the head design that causes a poor heat transfer to the coolant, I see many flathead engines that have Ardun Heads, Offenhauser Heads and various supercharged flathead engines making a lot of horse power, the waste of which adds to the heat produced. Is this just a matter of corrosion? If it is a matter of corrosion proper flushing and coolant maintenance would greatly help the cooling performance.
In my case with an ohv engine in a 38 panel it is simple, I have no constraints, I installed an aluminum radiator that is shaped very much like the stock one but is worlds different internally, I have a much more efficient water pump, and I run a coolant as recommended by the radiator manufacturer. I can idle my engine at 1100 rpm, big cam, in this 97 degree weather for 2 hours and just sit there and watch my 30 amp electric fan switch on and off and my stat open and close, she cycles from 185 to 165 in the temp range.
I understand that my system is different than yours but I want you to be able to sit in a lawn chair with an umbrella on a 97 degree day with a nice cold beer or a lemonade and enjoy that sweet musical symphony of clicks and hums to your delight.
If there is a guy out there who could can park his flathead powered vehicle next to mine and join me for a beer or a lemonade and sit there under the umbrella on that 97 degree day listening to a duet of engines clicking humming and singing I would ask him to please share his system specs, his maintenance routine, his block cleaning purge and maintenance routine with the other guys here so they can enjoy life a little more.
I think it would be good to establish a base line of exactly what your block should flow at a minimum, what a good pump should flow, the radiator required and its condition, and shrouding. I realize that you have constraints, you want to keep your stuff stock, but if stock means cooking it thats not good, bend a little.
Maybe GM and Don could put their heads together and between these two very intelligent men they could put together a tech thread that can be referenced by a guy who is new to flattys, you could even put it on the hamb. Thank you, Frank
BTW, just acquired a Desoto hemi, it's a mess, can't even tell it's size for sure, so now I have a fun new puzzle to figure out.

[G.M.]

Frank I just spelled it all out for you and it has been tested and proven many times. There are places in the center of the heads and at the rear that I can see with a laser thermometer and could be others I can't see that make small air bubbles like you see in a tea kettle. These bubbles stick to the metal surface on the heads and I SUPPOSE in some areas of the block and cylinders. These bubbles contain oxygen and can cause pin holes. In this case they insulate the metal from the coolant and the metal is not cooled and remains hot. This is the purpose of a wetting agent such as Purple Ice which I prefer, the PI treats the metal surface and allows the coolant to come in contact with the metal. When first installed and temperatures are taken at 5 minute intervals over a 15 to 20 minute period you can actually see the treatment work and the temperature drops. Anytime months later the PI still gives the transfer effect. Sit down and have another lemonade (not to strong) and work on some other problem the flat head cooling has already been resolved. Proven tested results not "I think", or other "WAGS" are the proof of the pudding. "Ask a man who drives one" Better yet ask a hundred or a thousand. G.M.

[Vergil]

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Originally Posted by Frank The Plumber

If there is a guy out there who could can park his flathead powered vehicle next to mine and join me for a beer or a lemonade and sit there under the umbrella on that 97 degree day listening to a duet of engines clicking humming and singing

Frank no doubt the 351 is a good engine and has a nice cooling system but if you want to bore it out an 1/8" as my flathead is I will set there and sing as long as you do

Vergil

[John R]

Originally Posted by G.M.

.... What the initial problem was is that there are 144 tubes in the radiator that add up tp 3-1/2 square inches of opening. The 2 radiator hoses dumping water into the top tank equals 4-1/2 square inches. Plus the radiator tubes are 2 feet long and have dirt in them which adds to the restriction of flow. This water dumped into the top tank was like putting 4 lbs of poop in a 3 lb bag. The older radiators had an over flow tube off the top of the tank before pressure caps where they then came out of the filler neck. The water backed up and came out the over flow "finding it's own level" and was now over a gallon low and the radiators boiled over. G.M.

GM: I don't really disagree with your statements, but some of them might be misinterpreted. You seem to imply that the cooling is limited by the max. flow rate thru the radiator (size of radiator tubes). If so, then more flow with better pumps would not help (in a non-pressurized system). You might want to clarify this.

[Frank The Plumber]

Originally Posted by Vergil

Frank no doubt the 351 is a good engine and has a nice cooling system but if you want to bore it out an 1/8" as my flathead is I will set there and sing as long as you do

Vergil

No doubt Vergil, I can see by the avatar that you spare no expense on your engines, nice piece of equipment, in a perfect world we should all be able to just sit there and listen to them run without a worry in the world, share your secrets with these guys so we can all just sit there like happy crickets.

[Vergil]

Originally Posted by Frank The Plumber

No doubt Vergil, I can see by the avatar that you spare no expense on your engines, nice piece of equipment, in a perfect world we should all be able to just sit there and listen to them run without a worry in the world, share your secrets with these guys so we can all just sit there like happy crickets.

LOL my happy cricket time is in snatches, I enjoy them when they come by and thanks Frank.

Vergil

[G.M.]

John I don't quite follow you. The flow rate through a stock lets say 36 Ford radiator is restricted by the total added up opening area of the 144 tubes plus add to that restriction that the tubes that are each about 24"s long and most have some sort of dirt and grease in them adding more restriction or resistance to the flow through them. Even at the poor flow of 55 gallons per minute produced by the stock pumps through a closed unrestricted meter there is more water pumped then will flow through the radiator and block at this flow rate. If the flow is restricted into the top of the radiator like turning a garden down and opening the drain valve you can adjust the hose valve to let just as much water in the top as comes out the bottom. When adjusted properly you can leave the hose run and it won't spill over at the filler neck. The water allowed in is similar with too much comming in and when restrictors were installed it was similar to adjusting the garden hose. The problem with adjusting the flow less water is being pumped through the radiator tubes and less heat is transfered to the fins and the air over the fins so the engine runs hotter. In the case of Fords with an open over flow from the tank this excessive water free flows out the over flow like it would in the garden hose example. When the over flow tube is blocked either by a 4 lb pressure cap or a 3 lb valve the water can't back out the over flow under normal temperatures and pressures. Normal pressure is less than 2 lbs at 200 degrees roughly.The pressure will not get over this below 200 unless there is a compression leak in the engine. When blocking off the overflow a saftey valve is required, this is the pressure cap or valve and it's purpose is to open and release pressure when it gets to 3 or 4 lbs in the radiator. Without a saftey valve it could damage the radiator or hurt people. With the valve or cap the water is forced through the radiator so more water is going through the tubes and more heat is removed from the tubes and fins by the air moveing across them. A some point the increased flow may be to fast and the cooling effect would not increase. I never got to that point in testing. There is plenty of air for cooling at even slow driving speeds but just about all the fans on the early Fords are border line for cooling for long idle periods on 80 plus degree days. Even driving into the wind cools better then with the wind from behind helping to push the car. More power is required pushing into the wind but cooling is still better going into it. We are not pressurizing the system in the attempt to raise the boiling point, We don't ever want to get near 212 degrees. We are only blocking the over flow tube to keep ALL of the water in the system while forceing the water through the tubes. These cars have a 22 quart system and we want to make use of all 22 quarts not run with 17 or 18 quarts. They can be filled up cold to 2"s from the TOP of the radiator tank and the slight expansion along with close to 5 feet of large radiator hose on some modles take the expansion and leaves no room for air. I hope this answers your question. G.M.

[41ford1]

Wow. We're on page 3! This job took a little longer than I expected. Not hard, just longer.
Temp results
First 20 min. flush with Cascade run this morning (old pumps): Ambient temp 68° engine temp 174°. Cascade did something, The dumped water was cappuccino brown.
Second 20 min rinse cycle with only water: Ambeint temp 78° engine temp 185°.
The dump water was the same color but you could see through it.
Removed pumps and radiator. Reversed flushed radiator. Saw clear water and good flow.
Checked the oil passages(were good) and installed pumps and radiator.
Filled the system with water only and went on the 20 min. cycle. Ambient 80° engine temp 165°
I am using a Craftsman DVM with a thermocouple input to take the engine temp readings. I take the reading at the hose connection on the heads. Both sides are within 5°.

As you can see Skip's pumps do make a sizable difference. I did see the temp climb when sitting at a couple of traffic lights. Nothing real bad just going outside the normal range on the Ford gauge. But today is a good 15+° cooler than the day it barfed. I think a shroud or an auxiliary electric fan may be a prudent addition to cover slow going on the really hot days.
Over the passed few weeks I have seen a number of 39 & 40 cars and 40 & 41 pickups. I have yet to see one with a shroud.
Did Ford offer one?

I'm letting it cool so I can change the water to the antifreeze, Water Weter, pump lube and Barrs concoction. I'll post those result later or maybe tomorrow. It's weird at 5 stores in town that I stopped at, no one at these places ever heard of Purple Ice. I was able to get Water Wetter at last place (Advance). I am going to wait until I get Purple Ice before making the concoction. It maybe a day or so.

[Frank The Plumber]

Go to the Royal Purple website, google purple ice, you can get it online.

[flathead4rd]

And so the debate continues. Just as it has several time before on different forums and by some of the same participants. Glean what you can from all the above info and go with what works for you. Amen!

[Coupe35]

I have one question since we are talking about cooling. Does 100% water cool better than 50% water and 50% antifreeze.

[Bassman/NZ]

Yes it does. On the Purple Ice web page there's a brief study of combinations and the plain water with PI came out the coolest.

[BIG MIKE]

Purple ice! Mate, big mike

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Frank The Plumber

Friends;
Is it a design flaw in the head design that causes a poor heat transfer to the coolant, I see many flathead engines that have Ardun Heads, Offenhauser Heads and various supercharged flathead engines making a lot of horse power, the waste of which adds to the heat produced. Is this just a matter of corrosion? If it is a matter of corrosion proper flushing and coolant maintenance would greatly help the cooling performance.
In my case with an ohv engine in a 38 panel it is simple, I have no constraints, I installed an aluminum radiator that is shaped very much like the stock one but is worlds different internally, I have a much more efficient water pump, and I run a coolant as recommended by the radiator manufacturer. I can idle my engine at 1100 rpm, big cam, in this 97 degree weather for 2 hours and just sit there and watch my 30 amp electric fan switch on and off and my stat open and close, she cycles from 185 to 165 in the temp range.
I understand that my system is different than yours but I want you to be able to sit in a lawn chair with an umbrella on a 97 degree day with a nice cold beer or a lemonade and enjoy that sweet musical symphony of clicks and hums to your delight.
If there is a guy out there who could can park his flathead powered vehicle next to mine and join me for a beer or a lemonade and sit there under the umbrella on that 97 degree day listening to a duet of engines clicking humming and singing I would ask him to please share his system specs, his maintenance routine, his block cleaning purge and maintenance routine with the other guys here so they can enjoy life a little more.
I think it would be good to establish a base line of exactly what your block should flow at a minimum, what a good pump should flow, the radiator required and its condition, and shrouding. I realize that you have constraints, you want to keep your stuff stock, but if stock means cooking it thats not good, bend a little.
Maybe GM and Don could put their heads together and between these two very intelligent men they could put together a tech thread that can be referenced by a guy who is new to flattys, you could even put it on the hamb. Thank you, Frank
BTW, just acquired a Desoto hemi, it's a mess, can't even tell it's size for sure, so now I have a fun new puzzle to figure out.

Frank:

In short, no.

Read GM's post. Pretty much nails it.

Tim

[41ford1]

I think Don explains the root heat problem in these engines in post 42. The Ford V8s an V12s port the exhaust through the block. I believe that makes fuel mixture and ignition timing more critical in heat control to keep EGT as low as possible. Something else to I need to make sure they're absolutely correct. Most other flatheads the intake and exhaust ports are on the same side of the cylinders.

Any one have any tips on setting the timing with a Mallory breakerless Ignition? I have not found any timing marks on this engine. Will a vacuum guage be adequate to do this? Right now the engine runs well with decent power so I never felt the need to look at the timing. Or maybe I'm thinking too much.

[Bassman/NZ]

Originally Posted by 41ford1

I think Don explains the root heat problem in these engines in post 42. The Ford V8s an V12s port the exhaust through the block. I believe that makes fuel mixture and ignition timing more critical in heat control to keep EGT as low as possible. Something else to I need to make sure they're absolutely correct. Most other flatheads the intake and exhaust ports are on the same side of the cylinders.

Any one have any tips on setting the timing with a Mallory breakerless Ignition? I have not found any timing marks on this engine. Will a vacuum guage be adequate to do this? Right now the engine runs well with decent power so I never felt the need to look at the timing. Or maybe I'm thinking too much.

If it aint broke, fix it 'til it is!

[Frank The Plumber]

Popcorn?