Cam and Lifter failures

[ms fowler]

I am building a stock 200 Falcon Six ( sorry--not a V8)--but I think this problem is becoming a universal one......

I hear of far more cam or lifter failures recently than ever before. I was discussing this with the owner of the machine shop who is doing the work on my Falcon six and he verified it. In his experience, cam and lifter failures became more of a problem since Covid. Maybe there is no relation to Covid, but maybe it is just a convenient way to mark the time

He related several engines he has build using flat tappet cams with cams and lifters coming from well-known US manufacturers all failed within 12 minutes on the dyno. Its not EVERY engine, but a significant percentage that fail. His response has been to recommend roller cams.

He also noted that he only buys all his parts from US distributors with whom he has worked for 40 years. Recently, some cams and lifter sets come in plain white boxes with no markings at all. He has asked his suppliers and they tell him that is the way they come, now. He suggested that any parts that come in plain white unmarked boxes be refused / not accepted and returned.

I asked him about using zinc-rich oil and he agreed, but still he sees failures.

He says old parts in good shape are better than new.

I told him I will be using oem springs--they all tested to meet the FSM specs and he said that would work in my favor. Accept that the engine will never spin over 4500-5000 rpm and I should be better off.



So--here i am asking if that fits with all your experience? My machine shop has been doing this work for over 40 years--he build some rare and exotic stuff--so don't just blame him. I am asking about your experience.

[BW]

Use a good break in oil, it should have ZDDP in it. Break the cam in first. On my 289 I ran the engine for 15 minutes at 2000 RPM's. When you change the oil use only a good gasoline motor oil with ZDDP in it. Like Lucas Hot Rod & Classic or Valvoline VR-1. I use 10w-30. Do not use a ZDDP Additive or Diesel oil. Non ZDDP Motor oil and Diesel oil have detergents that will remove the ZDDP. If you want more information on this topic, check out Lake Speed Jr. on U Tube. He works for Seal Power and he's pretty much the go to guy on ZDDP and oil and the proper way to break in a engine.

[KULTULZ]

Her is a brief tutorial on the subject -

https://www.eatonbalancing.com/2012/...lure-causes-2/

It is not only the lifter(s), it is also poorly ground cams.

The MAIN PROBLEM is quality manufacturing has dropped production due to loss of demand (even GM is having huge problems) and CHI-COM sloppy-copies is all that is readily available.

BEWARE OF THE PLAIN WHITE BOX!

[5851a]

https://www.oregoncamshaft.com/regrinding.html you might give this place a call.

[Gene F]

Originally Posted by BW

Use a good break in oil, it should have ZDDP in it. Break the cam in first. On my 289 I ran the engine for 15 minutes at 2000 RPM's. When you change the oil use only a good gasoline motor oil with ZDDP in it. Like Lucas Hot Rod & Classic or Valvoline VR-1. I use 10w-30. Do not use a ZDDP Additive or Diesel oil. Non ZDDP Motor oil and Diesel oil have detergents that will remove the ZDDP. If you want more information on this topic, check out Lake Speed Jr. on U Tube. He works for Seal Power and he's pretty much the go to guy on ZDDP and oil and the proper way to break in a engine.

I have a Model-A. The guys in the Model-A world mostly seem to think that Shell Rotella-T 30W is the way to go. I have tried to tell them that the Rotella-T is not the same as it once was. They reformulated that oil too, via a request of the federal govt back about 10 or more years ago. Like talking to a brick wall!

I am a big Lucas Hot Rod Oil user. Another thing, all oil filters are not created equal. I did not know this until I was referred to a youtube video some years back. I used Fram filters for a long time - no more. Been buying NAPA Gold, and Wix Racing Filters the last couple years. Some times on my Y-block I will use a Motorcraft FL-1A.

[Gene F]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

From what I hear "Crane cams (the kits with springs and lifters) are worth the money". However, I hear that S&S Cycle bought them. I hear if you order a Crane cam now it actually comes as a Comp Cams.

[5851a]

Kind of a quandary anymore, if the old one was working ok I would be tempted to re use. Australian sites may hold the answer, they ran the 6 for a long time. Agree with Gene all normal oils cut back after catalytic convertors. Diesel oils and race oils are not meant for gasoline or long term use. Spend a day watching Bob's the oil guy or filter guy. Interesting info. Not a fan of fram myself.

[KULTULZ]

The guys in the Model-A world mostly seem to think that Shell Rotella-T 30W is the way to go. I have tried to tell them that the Rotella-T is not the same as it once was. They reformulated that oil too, via a request of the federal govt back about 10 or more years ago. Like talking to a brick wall!

You're wasting your time trying to educate.

ROTELLA was the go to when the FEDS restricted ZDDP due to possible car convertor damage. Then ROTELLA had to change that formula when heavy diesel particulate traps came out. You can still get the same formula but is only sold in five gallon pails for older fleet use.

The FEDS then approved higher level ZDDP in gasoline engines oil if not used in later convertor applications (classification) and these are readily available.

HD DIESEL OIL does not belong in a gasoline engine.

[ms fowler]

Thanks for all the replies----and the links. I WILL look at all of them before I decide.

Also thank you all for graciously tolerating a non V8 question--some forums would be "rude".

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by ms fowler

Thanks for all the replies----and the links. I WILL look at all of them before I decide.

Also thank you all for graciously tolerating a non V8 question--some forums would be "rude".

There is no problem as long as it is FORD. No matter.

Why are you replacing the cam/lifters? Worn - out of spec?

[Gene F]

Originally Posted by 5851a

Kind of a quandary anymore, if the old one was working ok I would be tempted to re use. Australian sites may hold the answer, they ran the 6 for a long time. Agree with Gene all normal oils cut back after catalytic convertors. Diesel oils and race oils are not meant for gasoline or long term use. Spend a day watching Bob's the oil guy or filter guy. Interesting info. Not a fan of fram myself.

Some times you cut one apart (new), and there is rust inside of it. Rust...think about that.

[ms fowler]

In the past, replacing cam and lifters was SOP. Now, I am rethinking that. I kept the lifters in order so they could be returned to the same cam lobe.....and then I dropped two and now I don't know.
If I go with remachined lifters as noted above, that won't matter.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by ms fowler

In the past, replacing cam and lifters was SOP. Now, I am rethinking that. I kept the lifters in order so they could be returned to the same cam lobe.....and then I dropped two and now I don't know.

If I go with remachined lifters as noted above, that won't matter.

You know what I would do? Now that the lifter order has been disturbed, I would call OREGON CAM and talk with them. They are good and proven.

They can check the cam itself and most likely correct any problem. The tappets also need to be disassembled, cleaned/calibrated and resurfaced.

And don't forget, break-in will be as a new cam/lifters. The tappets have to turn in their bores while breaking in.

[ms fowler]

For anyone contemplating cam and lifters in this day of lesser quality parts.....
I contacted Oregon Cam and they quoted me $90 for the cam regind and $5.50 per lifter to recondition them. They will grind it to be like what is called an RV cam--but could do any profile.
Prices seem more than reasonable to me. I will be shipping the cam in a day or two ( when it warms up enough for me to go to my unheated garage. ( Unheated, bur well insulated yesterday with 20 degree outside, my garage was at a not-quite-comfortable 34 degrees)

[KULTULZ]

Please keep the board posted as to updates and results.

[STEVE O]

Hi Everyone,
As a parts manager for a school system with over 400 units we have used Napa Gold on everything that we could get filters to fit. Very good service and great product support. Mann Hummell (a very old and large German filter company) bought out WIX. Product support has not been like it use to be. Latest news from our NAPA store all Napa gold EAST of the Mississippi is now Baldwin (which is mainly China for the filters we got) and filters for Large truck are Donaldson. Supposedly west of the Mississippi Napa gold will stay the same?? Quality and service as we use to expect is falling by the wayside.
On another note we have used Shell Rotella SH15W40 dino motor oil for over 30 years in everything in the fleet except for units under warranty. Have pretty well come to the conclusion that this is not the best oil for our fleet (diesels with emissions especially). Most all of our buses since 2018 are Cummins diesels. The Cummins rep was by our shop and spoke to our shop manager and techs and looked at the specs of our oil and said it meets Cummins specs? I have not researched what our bulk Rotella may or maynot have in it now but was very surprised at what he said.
Hard for me to believe or accept how things have changed and may never be the same.
Steve

[KULTULZ]

Mann Hummell (a very old and large German filter company) bought out WIX. Product support has not been like it use to be.

That explains why I have seen some WIX PRODUCT MADE IN CHINA.

THANX!

[dmsfrr]

Guess I should stock up on a supply of non-chinesium Wix filters.

[STEVE O]

Hi KULTULZ,
Your welcome. Yes I started seeing some WIX/NAPA GOLD with the MANN/HUMMEL filters coming thru with the made in China. Then I saw NAPA sort of removed the MANN/HUMMEL on the box and all of the smaller filters are made in China.
dmsfrr I agree, hopefully you being west of the Mississippi you will still get the MANN/HUMMEL but I know they have already started some made in China also.
Sorry to hijack this thread but this stuff is really alarming to me.
Steve

[ms fowler]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Please keep the board posted as to updates and results.

Yes, of course.
That is one of my constant pleas---lets close the loop so others can learn from the experience.