Shredded the timing gear...but how?

[fivefix]

I just rolled over 2,000 miles on a newly rebuilt engine by Richard Fallucca of AER. Have had some problems blowing head gaskets with my Snyder's 6.0 head so I had it milled and installed the third gasket. I was gently breaking everything back in and was travelling at 45 MPH closed to home when the engine simply died. I could tell by the lack of compression when I engaged the starter I had blown a third gasket.

As you can imagine, I was quite shocked to pull the head and find the gasket in perfect order. Chocking it up to a rookie mistake, ( 2 year Model A owner) I reinstalled the head and set about getting it running.

The problem became evident as the timing gear was not turning when we tried to locate TDC. We pulled the timing side cover and everything looked good. It was clear the timing gear was not moving, but the crank gear was. After getting the timing gear to move slightly with a screwdriver, the gear engaged and rotated to reveal what you see in the images.

Would love to hear ideas on how the timing gear stopped dead, allowing the crank gear to shear the teeth right off. Once I got the teeth to engage, the timing gear spun freely so there isn't anything restricting it's movement.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I've never seen that color or material before for a timing gear.
I'd try a metal gear and make sure the mesh is correct.

[Joe K]

Agreed on the color - although color for digital cameras is at best hit or miss.

More importantly - I thought all the "macerated" fiber gears were pretty much now out of the supply system? It's certainly not a laid up gear (which is the preferred if one wants a fiber gear.)

And would not seem to be the "insert" fiber gear which some have had problems with the insert coming loose.

What are you running for a cam?

Joe K

[Purdy Swoft]

got to love those fiber gears . When Snyders started selling metal timing gears, thats all that I have used since.

[Mike V. Florida]

Incorrect meshing of the gears, (oversized timing gear where one was not needed) could cause the problem. I assume you asked Richard Fallucca of AER about this as well?

[Drive Shaft Dave]

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What concern did you purchase this gear from? When you replaced the cam gear, did you also change the gear on the crank? I also have never seen this color of a camshaft gear.

[H. L. Chauvin]

So sad to see this happen to you with a recent rebuild.

Did you or did the rebuilder provide this timing gear?

Appears like somebody poured Strawberry Kool-Aid in your oil pan ... like above, never saw "any" timing gear that color ..... saw a few timing gear teeth broken off but never saw a timing gear get eaten up like this ..... looks like a crocodile is in your oil pan ... maybe the rebuilder can shed some light.

Something is definitely not right .. but what?

Appears this could possibly be more complicated than one could imagine, especially if the line boring of the crank shaft was provided slightly askew and/or off center & not exactly parallel to the cam shaft thus causing the crankshaft teeth to grind the timing gear teeth.

Please try to investigate a little prior to just replacing a timing gear.

[tbirdtbird]

"Would love to hear ideas on how the timing gear stopped dead, allowing the crank gear to shear the teeth right off."
It's the other way around.

It may have come up before that it is only a matter of time before you will lose the teeth on a fiber gear. Lots of possible reasons.
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...ght=fiber+gear

[Mike V. Florida]

Does that gear look "dry" to the rest of you?

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

Just accept the fact fiber gears break! You said the cam turns free. Although, you didn't say what the cam profile is, it would have to be fairly radical to influence breakage, so the obvious answer is a crappy or defective fiber gear.

[FrankWest]

Just had mine shred too. Will use aluminum in the future,
See attached ad, Bratton's says there are a lot of weak gears being sold!
http://www.brattons.com/product.asp?...istory=related

[George Miller]

Worked on lots of A engines. Never seen that color gear. I would use a metal gear. In fact that is the only kind I will use on my engines. They will not be noise if you have the mains bored in the right place.

I think you need to pull the pan and clean all gear pieces out of there.

[Great Lakes Greg]

Your initial diagnosis, repair, and re-diagnosis mirrors what I did this summer. I have a metal gear coming for Christmas.

[fivefix]

Good morning everyone. No worries on the color of the gear. It's the standard tan fiber gear color, but the incandescent lighting I was using to get a good picture obviously made the gear look red.

I've included the link to AER below. I have the rebuilt long-block with insert bearings and I added the touring package which are the bullets listed below. The timing gear was provided and installed by Richard.

Dad and I just discovered this last night so I wont be able to discuss with Richard until Monday. My current plan is to pull the engine and make a trip to Skokie unless Richard can put me at ease with a dependable fix.

I must add Richard has been very helpful with my blown head gaskets and probable causes, thus the recent milling of my warped head.

http://antiqueenginerebuilding.com/Ahwy.html

• Model A counterbalanced engine with clutch and lightened flywheel.
• Touring Grind Camshaft
• Insert Main Bearings
• NEW Insert connecting rods with bearings
• New Hi Compression Head
• Larger Intake Valves 1.730 Head Dia

[Mitch//pa]

keep us posted on the outcome

[Bob Bidonde]

Discussion from another recent post about timing gears,
"Before the current laminated timing gear, there was another reproduction one-piece fiber gear which sold for about $15, and the teeth on this gear have a reputation for breaking. So stay away from bargain non-metallic gear as it may be this one."

[OL JENNY]

Remember guys that this engine was completely assembled with all parts provided by a reputable rebuilder. AER has an excellent reputation, and this apparently is the gear he uses in all of his rebuilds. There still could be a problem with the engine, none of us are perfect, but I don't think we should assume that Richard has used any bargain parts. Obviously he must still prefer fiber over metal gears in his rebuilds and that is a choice those who use him must accept. It is an interesting situation.

[Mikeinnj]

You mentioned that you milled your 6.0 high compression head.
Did you check to see if the oversize valves show signs of having hit the head ?

[fivefix]

Originally Posted by Mikeinnj

You mentioned that you milled your 6.0 high compression head.
Did you check to see if the oversize valves show signs of having hit the head ?

That's a great question. They only milled .010 so I sure wouldn't think they would hit. Heard AER is now milling all Snyder's 6.0 heads before assembly. Here are pictures of 1 & 2 and 3 & 4 when I pulled the head last week.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Rich has these timing gears made especially for his engines, as he told me in October when I was fighting a horrible restoration engine repair. It's a matched set of metal crankshaft gear and fiber timing gear that he sells and installs in his engines. Hopefully your situation is an isolated one!
Marshall

[H. L. Chauvin]

Not everyone would take the time to share such a sad experience of a Model A part failure.

Thanks for sharing such a hands on learning experience.

FWIW, it is not just Model A "fiber" timing gears -- I was left stranded after about 3,000 miles with a broken fiber timing gear on a new General Motors car in the mid 1970's -- old mechanics can relate hundreds of experiences with changing many fiber timing gears years ago -- Bratton's in his above ad, (through years of experience), even suggest carrying a spare "fiber" timing gear.

Also, if one researches a few years back, one can find that there were many Model A Forum heretics professing that metal timing gears were always far too noisy until one new gallant Forum member condemned this heresy & introduced his actual experiences with Mr. Dan McEachern's quiet metal timing gears.

Looks like many prefer to save the $12.00 on buying a new fiber gear so they can buy a few "double" Whoppers at their next meals ...... then after their fiber gear breaks, they wind up eating Vienna Sausage & crackers for (2) months to pay for a new $60.00 metal gear.

Just hope the picture you shared helps one in choosing their next "long lasting" Model A timing gear.

[tbirdtbird]

"that is a choice those who use him must accept"

could not an owner spec out what gear he wanted?

[a-bone newby]

my a did the same thing but it was from a pitted crank gear so I replaced both with a aluminum cam gear don't understand a fiber gear looks cheesy to me

[rocket1]

hey why can't they get these motors right,thats like the third one on the barn recently,poor parts, poor workmanship? what is the solution?

[Bob Bidonde]

I would think that the rebuilder would want to retrieve that broken timing gear he has especially made for his business, and find out why it failed. It looks to me as if the gear material may be the cause.

Also, the laminated timing gear sold by Bratton's is far superior to those composite fiber types that preceded the laminated gear. Failures of the laminated gear are uncommon, so why an especially made non-metallic gear?

[Tom Wesenberg]

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I agree with Bob. I use a good fiber gear in a stock engine and have no problems. That gear material looks like the wood boards that are made from compressed sawdust.

I also agree with Mike that the gear sure looks dry. I wonder if the oiling system was modified in any way?

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by fivefix

That's a great question. They only milled .010 so I sure wouldn't think they would hit. Heard AER is now milling all Snyder's 6.0 heads before assembly. Here are pictures of 1 & 2 and 3 & 4 when I pulled the head last week.

Could you say ...what is the shiny marked head on valve #1 cyl ? Did it hit something/bent ?
Also, did you wipe all the lube from the gear and areas , shown in the two destroyed cam gear areas ? It looks REALLY dry if not wiped !

Personally, for the extra FEW dollars that an aluminum gear cost, over any fiber gear, AND all the heart aches and labor/cost of repairs, I can not understand why anyone these days would not install the aluminum cam gear. Especially rebuilders, who put their reputation and business to test with each product sold !!

Wow, I feel for you, as the cost of an A/B rebuilt long block is not cheap outlay for the average Model A owner ! When considering pulling an engine back out, disassembly and shipping/transportation costs plus owner stress/dissatisfaction, etc....all add up to a VERY expensive fiber gear.

Appreciate your sharing with us and we will look forward to what you find out about this situation.

[mshmodela]

Sorry to read of your timing gear failure.. My ignorance that non metal timing gears even existed. Best wishes and thanks for sharing.

[ora masters]

Why would you pull motor to change a timeing gear

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by ora masters

Why would you pull motor to change a timeing gear

I was debating what I would do if it was my engine. Since it's winter and the car is done for the season, if I had a heated garage, I'd probably pull the engine. Otherwise, you can just pull the pan in place and the timing cover and gear, and hope everything else is OK.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by ora masters

Why would you pull motor to change a timeing gear

Hey ora,
Well, in addition to what Tom says, I'd pull engine due to concern about where all that cam gear debris possibly went in engine ! In other words, what is maybe plugged up , i.e.-oil pump, oil passages, etc.

[Purdy Swoft]

It would be much easier to work on with the engine out and on an engine stand. Usually when the oil pan has to be removed and replaced I'll just go ahead and remove the engine. I don't much like laying under one with oil dripping an trying to do a good job that won't leak when I replace the oil pan .

[H. L. Chauvin]

One or two broken fiber timing gear teeth is one thing; but the shredding one sees in the photo appears to be a different matter.

Possible scenario .............. not even considering Murphy's Law:

1. Timing gear first started to shed fiber.
2. Fiber fell in oil pan.
3. Oil pump screen kept out large broken teeth particles, & pumped shredded small particles.
4. Small fibers possibly got into the valve chamber & slid towards the drain holes.
5. Drain holes to mains may have been partially plugged.
6. Oil holes on tops of connecting rods may have picked up small fibers.
7. Add a little sludge to the small timing gear fibers to create plaque & minor artery blockage & the Babbitt may forced to start a reduced-oil & low-cholesterol diet where a cardiologist's Statin drugs may not work in a Model A.

Just maybe a few things one may want to verify "inside" to be on the safe side.

[Great Lakes Greg]

Wow, all this gloom and doom makes me want to pull my engine instead of just pulling the pan. I guess it's going to be a lot of rolling around on the cold floor either way.
It just seems like a lot of work with the headlights, bar, and radiator coming off. You retired guys probably have nothing better to do, but I still have to work for a living.

[George Miller]

I see you are using over size intake valves. Are you also using stronger valve springs to stop valve float. If so that would along with the touring cam put more load on the timing gear.

[pat in Santa Cruz]

my buddy used one of those in a AER engine that did the same thing. Rich gave him the option of the cheap fiber, laminated or metal. Don thought since the engine was for his AA, and would have only a few miles in its life, he would go with the cheaper gear. Then he had a problem with his car, and substituted the AA engine in so he could go on a long tour. The gear failed with less than 500 miles. It looked chewed up exactly like the one pictured in the first post (except for the color, which is camera related)

I have been hearing bad things about the cheap fiber gears for many, many years. Its the classic "get what you pay for" situation. I have had good luck with laminated gears, but what I run in my touring car is a set of McEachern's matched metal gears. Its a quiet and worry free set; well worth the expense..

[tbirdtbird]

Pat, this stripped out fiber gear issue re-surfaces on a regular basis. The suggestion of using metal gears is typically ignored. Why do you suppose that is?

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

Pat, this stripped out fiber gear issue re-surfaces on a regular basis. The suggestion of using metal gears is typically ignored. Why do you suppose that is?

I think it's due to the rational that the teeth will strip when there is a problem. Although I have to admit I have never read here about a catastrophic failure due to the teeth of a metal gear not stripping with a problem in the drive train. Has anyone heard of or has pics of what happens when the valves stop and the gears do not along with causes?

[tbirdtbird]

It is hard to imagine the valve gear in a running engine seizing.

If a car sits for years and the valves seize, then no part of the engine will rotate (metal or fiber). It will be obvious that something is wrong but no damage will occur.

After the Model A years there were many engines with timing chains and metal gears. The same concept would apply I would think.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

After the Model A years there were many engines with timing chains and metal gears. The same concept would apply I would think.

I've seen plenty of bent push rods in OHV engines with stuck valves, especially with todays gas gumming up the works.

[tbirdtbird]

did this occur with the engine already running? or after car was sitting a while

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

It is hard to imagine the valve gear in a running engine seizing.

If a car sits for years and the valves seize, then no part of the engine will rotate (metal or fiber). It will be obvious that something is wrong but no damage will occur.

After the Model A years there were many engines with timing chains and metal gears. The same concept would apply I would think.

I figured the same thing. So the thought that there is a need for a gear to strip to save the rest of the engine does not really exist,

[40 Deluxe]

Supplier of gear went offshore with a good timing gear in hand, looked around for the lowest cost factory and said, "Make these for me just as cheap as you possibly can so that I will make a huge profit". Problem is not so much the producer, as reputable offshore companies can meet the highest quality standards, but the US businessman who specs a cheap product.

[George Miller]

Since my first Model A special Coupe in 1960. Have never seen a camshaft lock up on a Model A. Have seen plenty of striped fiber gears. I do not want all that fiber parts in my oil pan and valve chamber.

Back in the day a lot of trucks used a alum gear. Even then we use to change a lot of fiber gears. No more fiber for me. My coupe has over 20'000 miles on a metal gear. It sounds just fine.

[fivefix]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

did this occur with the engine already running? or after car was sitting a while

Restoration completed in September, 2014. Had close to 500 gentle miles on the car at that time. Since September, regular drives and tours have added another 1,500 miles. Odometer reads 2,049.7. I was out doing some in-town driving that day and was on my way home. I live 2 miles out of town so was driving 45 MPH when it failed. Was at least able to coast close to home and didn't require a tow.

[sphanna]

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First i will tell you that i am not a trained mechanic. But i am thinking that when the gear stripped it would have immediatly stopped the engine. That being the case, i might not be too concerned about fiber particles being pumped through the oil passages and plugging. Iwould think a very thorough cleaning of the pan and gear area would be sufficient.

[Purdy Swoft]

I don't see how broken teeth would block any passages because the passages are from the bottom of the valve chamber to the main and cam bearings. I would be concerned with having to remove the oil pan and clean it out. Removing and replacing the oil pan with the engine in the car is a job that I for sure don't want to do. The screen on the oil pump would keep teeth out of the pump and passages. Enough broken tooth particals could block the screen on the pump and cause problems though. Its simple for me, I won't be using fiber gears in my engines .

[fivefix]

I have forwarded images of the failed gear to Richard Fallucca of AER. Richard says this is the first gear of his that has failed. He said it's not a matter of gear mesh as the images don't show the normal wear pattern of a tight fit. The fact that the teeth have simply snapped off indicates failure.

The failure has him just as confused as the rest of us. He can't believe anything foreign is in the engine causing the gear or valves to seize as it's a fresh rebuild. Also, the engine turns very easily with the crank with no apparent resistance.

He does not recommend pulling the engine at this time. He recommends a new gear and unfortunately dropping the pan to clean out the broken teeth. Richard does not recommend metal gears as metal slivers could peel off and get into the engine.

I'll be reviewing past threads and looking into quality alternatives to a fiber gear before I reinstall.

Thank you all for your advice and condolences!

Dave

[Brentwood Bob]

I would go through the oil pump while you have the pan down. The screen will be plugged. I think shattered is a better description of what I see to describe the damage to the timing gear. I would also go so far as to pull the valve cover and clean out the wiers looking for small particles. Yea, I will get flack for suggesting this, but that is what I would do. What does the rebuilder say?
Bob

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by pat in Santa Cruz

...what I run in my touring car is a set of McEachern's matched metal gears. Its a quiet and worry free set; well worth the expense.

My thoughts exactly!

[H. L. Chauvin]

Just one (1) probable cause:

1. Maybe the guy mixing the fiber batch to make these timing gears dropped his grilled cheese sandwich in the mix.

2. Then, you just happen to get the gear with the encapsulated cheese sandwich.

After 50 or so above possibility guesses as to what may have happened, 1 & 2 above might shed light on a clue to this mystery.

On a serious note, what ever you do, just sincere best wishes that all turns out well.

[Purdy Swoft]

Same here !!!

[Tom Wesenberg]

I just looked in Bratton's catalog and see they don't offer the cheap fiber gear.
Just for one's reputation I too would not sell nor install the cheap fiber gear.

I might be wrong, but from the picture, isn't this the cheap fiber gear, rather than the stronger laminated gear?

[OL JENNY]

What ever the material is, Richard Fallucca of AER has them made specifically for him. I would assume he does not think they are the cheap fiber gears, but only he knows I guess.

[OL JENNY]

I know that installing a matched set of crank and timing metal gears is the best situation, but has anyone installed just Dan's or Bill's high quality metal gear with their existing crank gear and been satisfied. In reading the posts it makes a person nervous with a fiber gear. My engine is a fresh touring rebuild with a fiber gear also, and it would really be nice to not have to pull the crank.

[Purdy Swoft]

Yes, I have installed Dans bronze cam gear and others aluminum and bronze gears without installing the crankshaft gear and have had no detectable noise or other problems. People have all kind of ideas about this. A person must make their own choices . If the crankshaft gear isn't pitted and looks good I usually just use it . You do not have to remove the crankshaft to replace the crankshaft timing gear, I've done it and used a three arm gear puller. the oil pan must be removed though . When I installed my first Dan gears in my AA we installed both gears with the motor in the truck. When the cam gear stripped on the coupe it hadn't been that long since we had overhauled it and installed a new fiber cam gear and a new crankshaft gear. The crankshaft gear still looked good as new and I could see no need to go to all of the trouble of replacing it. In that case I just installed a new Dan cam gear. My roadster showed around 10.000 miles on the crank gear so I just installed a new bronze cam gear from Snyders just for security. The fiber gear hadn't stripped on the roadster . I was installing a 3/4 race Winfield cam and figured it was a good time to go ahead and install a good reliable bronze gear .

[Super Piasan]

I can't imagine a timing gear failure with so few miles on the engine. I was there when the cylinder head was removed after the 3rd gasket failure - part of the gasket was in the combustion space, burned and blew the media between cylinders 3 and 4. At that time, there was no sign the valve interference with the cylinder head or gasket.

I have had 2 timing gear failures - one because the aluminum hub let go, and the other one that chewed the gear like this. I was on a tour when it failed because there were some pits on the steel lower gear and I didn't get the clutch in right away. Since then, a lower gear was installed and I haven't had any problems yet (10,000+ miles) But if I do, I will use a metal gear.

[tbirdtbird]

" Richard does not recommend metal gears as metal slivers could peel off and get into the engine."

Not sure how to weigh in on this remote concern.
However, if you have sunk some $$$$$ into a fresh build from anyone, we have to assume you had the foresight to install the oil filter package to protect your $$$$$$ mains. If so, I propose that any potential issue with metal slivers has been thus properly addressed.

Also as earlier mentioned I have also installed a new bronze gear and left the existing crank gear in place with no problems at all. And I do a lot of touring.

[Mitch//pa]

i dont run oil filters on my fresh rebuilds... can i use metal gears

[CarlG]

When I did mine, it was a no-brainer. The engine was already out & apart. I noticed that the fiber timing gear (on a 2,500 mile engine) was missing a couple of teeth. Among other things, I was putting in a new Stipe IB330 cam. So, when ordering the new Bronze timing gear from Dan-the-man, the matching crank gear was only $35 additional and no additional freight. ----- cheap insurance ------- (and no noise out of the peanut gallery)

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by OL JENNY

I know that installing a matched set of crank and timing metal gears is the best situation, but has anyone installed just Dan's or Bill's high quality metal gear with their existing crank gear and been satisfied. In reading the posts it makes a person nervous with a fiber gear. My engine is a fresh touring rebuild with a fiber gear also, and it would really be nice to not have to pull the crank.

The problem with replacing gears after a rebuild with something else is, the Gear lash on every gear, or set of gears will come out different.

When align Bored, you can NOT depend on a set center distanct for an alignment jig, because there are to many variances.

It is even worse with a used old gear and a New metal gear.

Not even counting the mesh not the same, but most of the time the old crank gear will have a place on the teeth that have ever touched a cam gear. That is where you get fast wear, and noise.

A gear with .008 thousandths clearance will give you noise even with new, or matched sets.

Dan wants .005 thousandths clearance on his gears, and they will come out perfect. When the motors hot, you probably have .003, which was I think Fords Spec's ?

Lash should always be set with a Dial, if you don't you have no idea what you have.

Herm.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

" Richard does not recommend metal gears as metal slivers could peel off and get into the engine."

Not sure how to weigh in on this remote concern.
However, if you have sunk some $$$$$ into a fresh build from anyone, we have to assume you had the foresight to install the oil filter package to protect your $$$$$$ mains. If so, I propose that any potential issue with metal slivers has been thus properly addressed.

Also as earlier mentioned I have also installed a new bronze gear and left the existing crank gear in place with no problems at all. And I do a lot of touring.

[QUOTE=tbirdtbird;998433]" Richard does not recommend metal gears as metal slivers could peel off and get into the engine."

What does he think about metal slivers coming off the rings, cylinder walls, cam bearings, lifter feet to cam shafts, Aluminum pistons, Ect.

Sounds like a problem where there will never be one.


Herm.

[tbirdtbird]

at this point we are at the same juncture we always end up at regarding oil!!

[Tom Wesenberg]

I always use a magnetic plug on engines, tranny drain and fill plugs, and rear ends.

You'd be surprised at the amount of fine grit that they collect.

[colin1928]

IMO a lot of these laminated gear failures can be traced back the incorrect back lash
having worked on other marques the back lash for laminated gears 0.0015" - 0.002"
same engines with metal gears (aluminium steel) 0.005"-0.007"
over years have followed these numbers and only 1 failure when I checked back lash you guessed it 0.006" on a laminated gear
On our Model A,s most have worn cam shaft journals ( normal wear and regrind) and worn cam shaft tunnels in the block the front bearing always has the most wear ( early 5 bearing blocks not so much)
this means that the shafts and gears do not run parallel leading to poor mesh uneven load on the gear teeth what chance does the gear have ??
Yes I know some books give the back lash for model A as 0.003"-0.005"

[Tom Wesenberg]

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Originally Posted by CarlG

When I did mine, it was a no-brainer. The engine was already out & apart. I noticed that the fiber timing gear (on a 2,500 mile engine) was missing a couple of teeth. Among other things, I was putting in a new Stipe IB330 cam. So, when ordering the new Bronze timing gear from Dan-the-man, the matching crank gear was only $35 additional and no additional freight. ----- cheap insurance ------- (and no noise out of the peanut gallery)

Carl, those gears you pictured are straight cut. Are they for a Model T?

I assume Dan must make the correct helical teeth for the Model A gears.

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Carl, those gears you pictured are straight cut. Are they for a Model T?

I assume Dan must make the correct helical teeth for the Model A gears.

It's either an optical illusion or I don't know what. I thought that was a picture of the gears I put in my engine, but now you got me wondering. I'll have my engine opened up in the next couple weeks or so, I'll take another picture.

[40 Deluxe]

I too wonder about metal "slivers" idea. Now, a "sliver" is a good-sized piece of metal, about like a finger nail clipping. Something would have to be drastically wrong to produce wear debris like that! Normal wear would be very fine aluminum particles, microscopic in size, and would occur very slowly, just a couple thousandths of an inch in tens of thousands of miles of driving! Such fine particles would either flow out with the drain oil or settle out in a quiet corner of the pan or valve chamber.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Carl, those gears you pictured are straight cut. Are they for a Model T?

I assume Dan must make the correct helical teeth for the Model A gears.

Dans gears have helical cut teeth. And they are very well made. Have used a few sets.

[Dan McEachern]

We also make them with straight cut teeth to eliminate the thrust loading on the cam.
No they do not make any more noise than the helical sets. Just saying.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Dan McEachern

We also make them with straight cut teeth to eliminate the thrust loading on the cam.
No they do not make any more noise than the helical sets. Just saying.

Hey Dan,
BTW, Dan's crank gear that is matched to the cam gear...is STEEL and not the flaky iron that was original. You will not flake or sliver pieces off of his crank gear !

[fivefix]

I'm going with Dan's gears and ordered a matching set this morning.

Anyone have experience pulling the crank gear with the engine in and if so, what tool is used to pull the crank? As of this morning, my plan is to pull the engine to replace the gears.

Dave

[hardtimes]

Hey Dave,
Good choice and plan ! Dan is about the quickest parts shipper that I've ever dealt with and a gentleman ! As I've stated previously, Dan is the only guy who has sent me parts....then sends an invoice ...after I've rec'd the parts and tell him they all arrived and are what I want !!

Since you are taking the engine out, would you let us know when you clean it of fiber parts, where you found the parts collected/lodged. There has been 'speculation' and guesses where fiber debris will collect. Some say..clean pan and run it , I say clean all passages, oil pump and pan then run it. Your findings will most likely help all who have a fiber cam gear disintegrate.

Regarding crank gear removal. With engine removed, I'd use a gear puller.

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

...
Regarding crank gear removal. With engine removed, I'd use a gear puller.

Don't forget to protect the internal threads on the end of the crank itself.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by CarlG

Don't forget to protect the internal threads on the end of the crank itself.

Good point Carl ! Some pullers are nicely built with this in mind, however, if using something that goes down inside ...then protect those threads for sure.

[fivefix]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey Dave,
Good choice and plan ! Dan is about the quickest parts shipper that I've ever dealt with and a gentleman ! As I've stated previously, Dan is the only guy who has sent me parts....then sends an invoice ...after I've rec'd the parts and tell him they all arrived and are what I want !!

Since you are taking the engine out, would you let us know when you clean it of fiber parts, where you found the parts collected/lodged. There has been 'speculation' and guesses where fiber debris will collect. Some say..clean pan and run it , I say clean all passages, oil pump and pan then run it. Your findings will most likely help all who have a fiber cam gear disintegrate.

Regarding crank gear removal. With engine removed, I'd use a gear puller.

Of course. I probably won't start until after the holidays, but I'll re-post my findings and will include images to show everyone what happened.

[Mitch//pa]

what i would do is while the motor is hanging by the cherry picker drop the pan so the pieces stay contained to the oil pan as much as possible.. flipping it over to drop the pan may scatter the chunks around inside the block....just a thought youll probably clean it out any way but maybe less mess

[fivefix]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

what i would do is while the motor is hanging by the cherry picker drop the pan so the pieces stay contained to the oil pan as much as possible.. flipping it over to drop the pan may scatter the chunks around inside the block....just a thought youll probably clean it out any way but maybe less mess

Thanks Mitch. Will do.