The Ford Barn

coyledad46 · 01-12-2024, 08:29 PM

I'm installing rear brakes after getting them back from Snyder's, completely rebuilt. I removed the radius rods to make it easier. I positioned the service brake lever forward to clear the fork in the radius rod and put the drum back on, forgetting to return the service brake lever to the upright position. The emergency brake band hung up a little, but I managed to get the drum on. But I couldn't move the lever back after the drum was on.
I took the drum off again and easily moved the lever upright, but now I can't get the drum over the service brake shoes. I noticed that the shoes are expanded further when the lever is upright than when it was pointed forward, which seems to be the issue.
Your suggestions would be most appreciated.

Phil Brown · 01-12-2024, 09:09 PM

Maybe a picture of the backing plate/shoe without the drum might help

coyledad46 · 01-12-2024, 09:49 PM

Here's a picture.

nkaminar · 01-13-2024, 06:40 AM

Brattons has a good diagram of how the brakes go together. See https://www.brattons.com/REAR-BRAKE-...tinfo/AD%2D16/

With the lever horizontal the cam that activates the shoes would not be in a position to move the shoes. with the lever vertical, make sure the cam is situated between the rollers and is facing the correct way. Make sure the cam moves back and forth and has a small amount of grease on it. With the drum off, pull the lever to see if the cam is moving the shoes correctly.

If the drum has not been turned to true it the drum may be too small to fit the shoes. Also if the shoes are not centered the drum may not fit. The vendors sell a tool for checking to see if the shoes are centered. New linings on the shoes may need to be sanded a little to make the drums fit.

The shoe linings should have bevels at the leading and trailing edges.

Rob Doe · 01-13-2024, 07:54 AM

Coyle,

How far on does the drum go? Is it the service brake shoes and linings that are holding the drum off or the E-brakes? If it is the service shoes, there is a last little bit of installation movement on the service shoes that gets the head of the roller pin to ride properly on the roller track. I dealt with this yesterday.

The head of the roller pin and the track are not visible. The only external indication that I had that the roller pin head was in the right position on the track was: When looking straight at the upper shoe roller, the face of the cam shaft and the lower roller...the faces of the two rollers are set back about an 1/8" from the face of the cam shaft. At first, they were all three flush with one another.

There is a brake tool from vendors that looks like a grip off a pistol. It has two hooks on it and is made to give the user plenty of leverage to remove the shoes or install the shoes easily expanding the springs. If the properly shaped and tension springs are used, the shoes can be removed and installed by hand...unless you're aging.

Also, the long spring holding the shoes needs to be installed correctly so that e-brake carrier does not set on top of the middle part of the spring. On our car the long spring was not shaped correctly and was in the way of fully seating the e-brake carrier. I had ordered new springs from Snyders to solve the problem. The springs on the car were also much stiffer than the new ones.

Hope this helps you. The devil's always in the details!

Tom Endy · 01-13-2024, 11:12 AM

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The E-brake shoe is assembled incorrectly. The cotter pins should face the other way or they will rub on the brake drum.

Tom Endy

Phil Brown · 01-13-2024, 01:45 PM

If the shoes are expanded farther when the arm is forward than they are when it is upright maybe check to see if the actuating cam is spun around in its holder ?
Pull the E brake assembly off to fix the pins like Tom suggested and maybe get another pic of the service brakes without the E brake on.

coyledad46 · 01-13-2024, 08:11 PM

Here's another picture with the brake drum on as far as it will go. When I try to push the brake lever back, it expands the shoes further and won't go all the way back.
If I push the lever all the way back before trying to put the drum on, it still won't go on, as the shoes are too tight. I sanded the ends of the linings, but that didn't seem to help.

I'm reluctant to take everything apart again (a lot of work), but am learning toward the notion that the cam is past its stop. What do you think?

Marshall V. Daut · 01-13-2024, 08:51 PM

I see that no one has mentioned yet to screw the brake wedge in quite a ways to retract the shoes (at the bottom). If you don't do that, you might not ever get the brake drums back into place. Did you turn those adjusting wedges in?
Marshall

coyledad46 · 01-14-2024, 01:57 AM

Sorry, I forgot to mention that I turned the adjusting wedge counterclockwise to its stop before starting to put the drum back on. That's not the problem.

nkaminar · 01-14-2024, 06:29 AM

Did you check the operation of the brake with the drum off? Did you check to see if the cam is located correctly with respect to the rollers and its proper orientation?

Rob Doe · 01-14-2024, 07:39 AM

It's early, I've only had one cup of Joe. But, perspective is important. Cause I'm easily confused, LOL.

We appear to be working on the left rear wheel, as viewed from the driver's seat looking forward toward the radiator??? The drum appears to be hanging up on the service brake shoes and linings.

Coyle,

Are you sure you mean you move the lever 'back'? Moving the service brake lever toward the back would mean toward the rear bumper of the car. When doing this, the brake shoes should not expand. They should retract fully??? This would mean the cam is turned 180 degrees as mentioned above???

See Bratton's rear brake assembly diagram on their web site. It also shows the correct orientation of the e-brake retraction spring when you get to that point.

Kurt in NJ · 01-14-2024, 09:59 AM

Could you have left and right mixed up?
Are the rollers touching the brake cam shaft like in the picture?
What size is the drum, if it’s new and hasn’t been turned it might be undersized.

coyledad46 · 01-14-2024, 12:12 PM

What all do I have to remove in order to turn that cam around?

Marshall V. Daut · 01-14-2024, 12:56 PM

I deleted this response because it was incorrect. 'Got it backwards in my mind. No sense in spreading more false information here!

Marshall

nkaminar · 01-14-2024, 04:25 PM

You have to spread the shoes apart to turn the cam around. Taking the springs off helps a lot but they are hard to put back on with the emergency shoes in place. The cam just pivots in the hole. If it is hard to turn then it may not be sliding well enough and should be removed to clean it up and to put a small amount of grease on it.

Regarding the adjustment. The screw is a right hand thread and unscrewing (counterclockwise) it from the back of the backing plate will make the adjustment retracted. If viewed from the shoe side of the backing plate then the direction would be clockwise. If this is confusing then just observe the shoes being retracted when turning the adjustment.

Marshall V. Daut · 01-14-2024, 04:28 PM

Right you are, nkaminar. I was thinking backwards. I'll alter my post to reflect the right way.
Marshall

coyledad46 · 01-14-2024, 07:39 PM

One more question for nkaminar while I'm trying to figure out how to spread the shoes with the springs on. Do I need to remove the cam and flip it end for end, or just rotate it 180 degrees while it's still in the hole?

Phil Brown · 01-14-2024, 11:28 PM

Just rotate it in its holder....if it is backward

Rob Doe · 01-15-2024, 04:28 AM

I suggest you watch this YouTube video: "How to Stop on a Dime"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GFMJ7iiWiI

01-12-2024, 08:29 PM	#1
coyledad46 Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Pleasanton, Ca Posts: 48	Rear brake woes I'm installing rear brakes after getting them back from Snyder's, completely rebuilt. I removed the radius rods to make it easier. I positioned the service brake lever forward to clear the fork in the radius rod and put the drum back on, forgetting to return the service brake lever to the upright position. The emergency brake band hung up a little, but I managed to get the drum on. But I couldn't move the lever back after the drum was on. I took the drum off again and easily moved the lever upright, but now I can't get the drum over the service brake shoes. I noticed that the shoes are expanded further when the lever is upright than when it was pointed forward, which seems to be the issue. Your suggestions would be most appreciated.

01-12-2024, 09:09 PM	#2
Phil Brown Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Santee Calif. Posts: 509	Re: Rear brake woes Maybe a picture of the backing plate/shoe without the drum might help

01-13-2024, 06:40 AM	#4
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,897	Re: Rear brake woes Brattons has a good diagram of how the brakes go together. See https://www.brattons.com/REAR-BRAKE-...tinfo/AD%2D16/ With the lever horizontal the cam that activates the shoes would not be in a position to move the shoes. with the lever vertical, make sure the cam is situated between the rollers and is facing the correct way. Make sure the cam moves back and forth and has a small amount of grease on it. With the drum off, pull the lever to see if the cam is moving the shoes correctly. If the drum has not been turned to true it the drum may be too small to fit the shoes. Also if the shoes are not centered the drum may not fit. The vendors sell a tool for checking to see if the shoes are centered. New linings on the shoes may need to be sanded a little to make the drums fit. The shoe linings should have bevels at the leading and trailing edges. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past. Last edited by nkaminar; 01-13-2024 at 06:25 PM.

01-13-2024, 07:54 AM	#5
Rob Doe Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 491	Re: Rear brake woes Coyle, How far on does the drum go? Is it the service brake shoes and linings that are holding the drum off or the E-brakes? If it is the service shoes, there is a last little bit of installation movement on the service shoes that gets the head of the roller pin to ride properly on the roller track. I dealt with this yesterday. The head of the roller pin and the track are not visible. The only external indication that I had that the roller pin head was in the right position on the track was: When looking straight at the upper shoe roller, the face of the cam shaft and the lower roller...the faces of the two rollers are set back about an 1/8" from the face of the cam shaft. At first, they were all three flush with one another. There is a brake tool from vendors that looks like a grip off a pistol. It has two hooks on it and is made to give the user plenty of leverage to remove the shoes or install the shoes easily expanding the springs. If the properly shaped and tension springs are used, the shoes can be removed and installed by hand...unless you're aging. Also, the long spring holding the shoes needs to be installed correctly so that e-brake carrier does not set on top of the middle part of the spring. On our car the long spring was not shaped correctly and was in the way of fully seating the e-brake carrier. I had ordered new springs from Snyders to solve the problem. The springs on the car were also much stiffer than the new ones. Hope this helps you. The devil's always in the details! __________________ "It ain't what you know for certain that gets ya in trouble. It's what ya know for certain that just ain't so!" Last edited by Rob Doe; 01-13-2024 at 08:06 AM.

01-13-2024, 11:12 AM	#6
Tom Endy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern California Posts: 3,131	Re: Rear brake woes Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) The E-brake shoe is assembled incorrectly. The cotter pins should face the other way or they will rub on the brake drum. Tom Endy

01-13-2024, 01:45 PM	#7
Phil Brown Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Santee Calif. Posts: 509	Re: Rear brake woes If the shoes are expanded farther when the arm is forward than they are when it is upright maybe check to see if the actuating cam is spun around in its holder ? Pull the E brake assembly off to fix the pins like Tom suggested and maybe get another pic of the service brakes without the E brake on.

01-13-2024, 08:51 PM	#9
Marshall V. Daut Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Davenport, Iowa Posts: 2,112	Re: Rear brake woes I see that no one has mentioned yet to screw the brake wedge in quite a ways to retract the shoes (at the bottom). If you don't do that, you might not ever get the brake drums back into place. Did you turn those adjusting wedges in? Marshall

01-14-2024, 01:57 AM	#10
coyledad46 Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Pleasanton, Ca Posts: 48	Re: Rear brake woes Sorry, I forgot to mention that I turned the adjusting wedge counterclockwise to its stop before starting to put the drum back on. That's not the problem.

01-14-2024, 06:29 AM	#11
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,897	Re: Rear brake woes Did you check the operation of the brake with the drum off? Did you check to see if the cam is located correctly with respect to the rollers and its proper orientation? __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past.

01-14-2024, 07:39 AM	#12
Rob Doe Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 491	Re: Rear brake woes It's early, I've only had one cup of Joe. But, perspective is important. Cause I'm easily confused, LOL. We appear to be working on the left rear wheel, as viewed from the driver's seat looking forward toward the radiator??? The drum appears to be hanging up on the service brake shoes and linings. Coyle, Are you sure you mean you move the lever 'back'? Moving the service brake lever toward the back would mean toward the rear bumper of the car. When doing this, the brake shoes should not expand. They should retract fully??? This would mean the cam is turned 180 degrees as mentioned above??? See Bratton's rear brake assembly diagram on their web site. It also shows the correct orientation of the e-brake retraction spring when you get to that point. __________________ "It ain't what you know for certain that gets ya in trouble. It's what ya know for certain that just ain't so!"

01-14-2024, 12:12 PM	#14
coyledad46 Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Pleasanton, Ca Posts: 48	Re: Rear brake woes What all do I have to remove in order to turn that cam around?

01-14-2024, 12:56 PM	#15
Marshall V. Daut Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Davenport, Iowa Posts: 2,112	Re: Rear brake woes I deleted this response because it was incorrect. 'Got it backwards in my mind. No sense in spreading more false information here! Marshall Last edited by Marshall V. Daut; 01-14-2024 at 04:27 PM.

01-14-2024, 04:25 PM	#16
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,897	Re: Rear brake woes You have to spread the shoes apart to turn the cam around. Taking the springs off helps a lot but they are hard to put back on with the emergency shoes in place. The cam just pivots in the hole. If it is hard to turn then it may not be sliding well enough and should be removed to clean it up and to put a small amount of grease on it. Regarding the adjustment. The screw is a right hand thread and unscrewing (counterclockwise) it from the back of the backing plate will make the adjustment retracted. If viewed from the shoe side of the backing plate then the direction would be clockwise. If this is confusing then just observe the shoes being retracted when turning the adjustment. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past.

01-14-2024, 04:28 PM	#17
Marshall V. Daut Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Davenport, Iowa Posts: 2,112	Re: Rear brake woes Right you are, nkaminar. I was thinking backwards. I'll alter my post to reflect the right way. Marshall

01-14-2024, 07:39 PM	#18
coyledad46 Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Pleasanton, Ca Posts: 48	Re: Rear brake woes One more question for nkaminar while I'm trying to figure out how to spread the shoes with the springs on. Do I need to remove the cam and flip it end for end, or just rotate it 180 degrees while it's still in the hole?

01-14-2024, 11:28 PM	#19
Phil Brown Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Santee Calif. Posts: 509	Re: Rear brake woes Just rotate it in its holder....if it is backward

01-15-2024, 04:28 AM	#20
Rob Doe Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 491	Re: Rear brake woes I suggest you watch this YouTube video: "How to Stop on a Dime" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GFMJ7iiWiI __________________ "It ain't what you know for certain that gets ya in trouble. It's what ya know for certain that just ain't so!" Last edited by Rob Doe; 01-15-2024 at 04:47 AM.