1932 5W VIN please help

[noel_808]

Hello, new to forum. Picked up a 5w with a V8 VIN # 16X,XXX from Texas via Wisconsin, need some help and I searched the forums for hours, honest.

Here goes; The car was (re)titled in WI in 1998 with this V8 VIN and the Texas title has a statement on the title that says "VIN verification exempt"

My state, Hawaii, is like California's strict laws with VIN verification in which a cop has to come and verify at your house (There's one dedicated guy for over a million people) so it's taking time to get him.

I removed the front fender and removed the paint but can't find the VIN without lifting the body as the original frames were heavily modded with a heidts front and leafs out back and of course, boxed. I can't find anything online regarding the amount of 5w V8s made.

So, without the lifting of the body, what are the chances that I have an actual 5W V8?

It is the original fenders and no tire holder (deluxe) but did have a rumble seat. Lots of pics but nothing that I can see that would indicate it was a V8. It was in a barn for 30 years in Great lakes and had a chevy v8 when the WI '32 enthusiast got her.

He did all the awesome touring mod work but never took a pic of the VIN. The story before the WI enthusiast got it is that it was the fastest v8 at Great Lakes Speedway until 1955 but I'm guessing that's famous folklore from every town.

From the frame off pics given to me, the chevy V8 was not race worthy, looked pretty plain jane chevy 350. Car had full fenders.

Without the verification, my Hawaii title will say "Streetrod Replica" instead of Streetrod. Is there any publications that have more info on this topic?

[Capn John]

Here's a start:
http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/f...ialnumbers.htm

[url]http://www.wnyrg.org/canvins.html[/url

http://www.wnyrg.org/findserno.pdf

http://www.wnyrg.org/tip.html

http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/ABenginenumbers.htm

http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/US2831bodystyles.htm

http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/patentplates.htm

[DavidG]

If all you have is 16X,XXX complete with the comma and no prefix such as AB, B, or 18 followed by a dash and maybe a star in front of the prefix and following the last digit, then it falls short of being anything other than a six digit number and not a Ford six digit number as they used no commas. While there were more than 16X,XXX V8s produced during the 1932 model year that's purely coincidental until you can find some evidence linking your car to the Ford numbering sequence such as a one of the prefixes cited above.

[TJ]

If there's a VIN on the frame it should be near the left firewall brace and be visible once the fender is off. Did you check the left door jamb? Many times state DMVs put a metal tag in the doorjamb when a car is retitled.

[Pat/Ohio]

Noel, A suggestion would be to purchase a Patent ID plate which also has a box for your serial number. Although not correct for an original vehicle, they are great for displaying your serial number in plain view on the firewall. I have done this a time or two so that the vehicle inspection goes smoothly without dismantling your car. Just stamp the serial number that is on your title. Midwest Early Ford Parts will also stamp your plate for you.

Try this link for the Patent plate: (you will need to do a search for the Patent Plate)
http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb....rt~A2~cadehjha

Good luck,
Pat

[Hoop]

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... "what are the chances that I have an actual 5W V8?"

Original Poster has a couple of questions.

Perhaps DavidG can help with advice on what might be different on a V8 frame as opposed to a Model B ... holes, punch-outs, extra brackets, etc. Would help answer the V8 question.

While 16X,XXX is a bit off due to the coma and no prefix, where did the coma come from? Was it simply added by the OP? ... does it actually appear on the title? It's a good number which might have had the coma added by anyone. Further, it was a common practice to omit the prefix, so 18-16XXXX would go on the title as 16XXXX. I've had them appear that way.

Soooo, help the OP find specific features on the frame that would point to a V8 rather than a Model B .... then help him find/uncover/raise the original serial number stamp on the frame ... I think he already knows where to look.

[rotorwrench]

The previous title is usually taken by the state that issues the new title unless someone was given a copy of it or already had a copy. Having lived in Texas for many years, I can assure you that verification of serial numbers or VIN are not exempted in any way for the purpose of issuance of title. Texas verifies them the same way many other state do or they don't issue a title. A title that doesn't mach the VIN is not valid for the vehicle in question. I would seriously question the validity of any title from Texas that was exempted from verification. This just doesn't make sense.

Your car may not even have the original frame. It's been a long time since 1932. The body should have a few characteristics left of either 4-cylinder installation or V8 unless holes have been filled or removal of those possible differences. DavidG may be able to help ID it unless there is no difference. It seems like the 4-cylinder had a damper mounted on the firewall unless I'm mistaken.

[flatrod]

Do most titles have coupe, pick up or roadster on them? My title just says 1932, 18-xxxxx, no mention what body style it is. It came from New York with nothing and still has no body style.

[itslow]

Originally Posted by flatrod

Do most titles have coupe, pick up or roadster on them/

That will depend upon the state, and don't expect it to always be consistent within a given state, either. A lot of things can change within a state's DMV over 85 years.

[DavidG]

In terms of bare original '32 passenger car/commercial vehicle chassis frames there's nothing to distinguish that for a B from that for a V8, except, of course, for the engine number stamped on to the top of the frame rail.

[Mart]

As it is a streetrod, how much of the original car is there? how about the firewall? the 4 cyl had a damper bolted to it. V8s didn't. The original k member had different locations for the anti chatter rods. you will see witness marks from whichever set of bolt holes were used or not used.

I would not be surprised to find neither original firewall or k member are still present.

Is the frame actually original or repro? If original there should be a repeat of the original serial number in two more locations on the left side rail. I say should because I could not find the other two locations on mine, but the main one is clearly visible.

Where are you quoting the number from? Paperwork? Does it appear on the car, if so, where and is it on a removeable plate?

What would happen if it is an original frame and you do find a number elsewhere, an original correctly stamped ford number, what would happen if it did not match the vin number you are quoting?

If it was not a V8, the serial number would have started with 5000000 so the 16xxxetc is not a 4 cylinder number.

Mart.

[rotorwrench]

A lot of old titles I've seen will differentiate passenger car from pickup (commercial car) but many only state 2DR or 4DR with no mention of body style. Many didn't event mention where it was an open car (convertible) or a closed car. They were plain and simple but the manufacturer, model year, and serial number were really all that mattered back then.

I was from Kansas originally so for many many years they have had FARM registration for vehicles used in agriculture for tax purposes. This included pickups, trucks, and other road vehicles either factory or home made to work on a farm but it didn't include passenger cars. Commercial vehicles were also taxed differently but I'm not sure what gave a vehicle that designation.

[Krylon32]

Heaven forbid you might mysteriously find a set of stamps with a star and the title numbers might appear on your frame. Nebraska is fairly strict but I have heard of guys riveting a serial numbered data plate to their frame and it passed?

[Newc]

Hi all; the correct stamps are currently for sale here on Fordbarn. Newc

[Andy]

The vin at the firewall was visible without removing the fender. Having to remove the fender would not be practical. I am thinking it is a repo frame. Please take some pictures of the side rail below the front fender. There may be existing stock holes but they could have been filled.
There must be a number somewhere as Texas sure would not issue a title without a number to check. You could have multiple cars using the same title.
I would think stamping a number would be a very bad idea.

[Krylon32]

Have you had the vin checked to see if it's clear? I'm curious, how the hell are you gonna get it inspected and passed without some form of number identification?

[noel_808]

Attachment 339512Happy thanksgiving and thank you for your replies. Good to see a lot of activity on the forums and great members still wrenching.

Capn John; I have seen the van pelts and wnyrg sites, gonna check those again to see if I missed something. Sorry, no comma is on the title. it is 16XXXX titled in Wisc, are the v8s titles normally with the "18" before the rest of the VIN? e.g. 18-123456?

TJ; The frame had a lot of work, I doubt the WI owner cared is it was B or 18, he was never going sell it, he had a 32 panel too, loved his fords. He passed away and the wife sold it to a collector from Texas.

DavidG; I was confused too but the title from Texas states "VIN verification waived", not exempt like I stated earlier. I took it to the DMV in Texas and couldn't get it titled in my name because I am not a Texas resident. I should've asked about that statement but I got the bill of sale notarized from a law office across the street. I will try to post a pic. Sounds like if I want to know for sure, I just have to lift the body for the numbers, still like to know if it is a B or 18 just from the old pics.

Pat/Ohio; I have an aftermarket label attached to the firewall, is that sufficient? I have heard rodders here say that is sufficient but the cop hasn’t gotten back to me and he’s on vacay till next week. Been waiting since Nov 1. for him to come out, may have to go to the police station next week, temp reg expires Dec 2.

Thanks Hoop, I will try post a pic of the firewall. Rotorwrench, I can assure it is a 32 frame. Frame off pics prove it. The WI rodder was a true Ford man, a ’94
Mustang 5.0 sits in it, Ford 9in, all done in good taste. He tore it down and went all Ford when he could. The body was down to bare metal and it looked good from the pics, it even has the original fenders, if not the original, they are steel. Everything in it from I can see is a high quality build. There are jig pics with the engine in and out as more work was done to get it right. Modifications to the frame are heavy like I said, Heidts front and welded leafs with a notch in the kick to bring it down a bit out back. The last paint job was done from streetworks in Waukesha, a quality paint job so I think he grinded away the beads and took a little more than I preferred after welding or just didn’t care what it was (18 or B), which makes me think it’s originally a 4 cyl frame, I just want to know if there is any tells that it is.

From what Mart’s saying, I may have a chance
just gotta learn where to look in the frame off pics. Now, this is hearsay from local rodders here but if there are numbers and it doesn’t match, e.g., the cop says he sees B-xxxxxxxx or 16XXXX and he says it is valid and if not stolen, the Motor Control Office (Safety check) concurs and the title can be whatever the numbers are as the frame #s read, regardless of what the previous paperwork says. State law says it will then be a streetrod and not replica which is important to me as really I don’t want the title saying replica. Some guys here don’t care and they run it but I think the state screwed up after modeling their laws after other states. Hawaii likes to take all confusing California laws and make them more complicated.

So as I contemplate the body lift, I have a 32 rodder friend that offered to stamp the frame but I don’t think he has the right set, was there ever a dash between the 18? I don’t want it to be stamped wrong as I can imagine the horror stories.

I have seen examples of it being as follows; *18<->123456* (double arrow). Was there any star instead, between 18 and the numbers? Example; 18*123456* or *18*123456* I’d like to let the guy know he needs to get the right numbers if it gets to that. I know there are special 1,6,9s as well.

Andy, I had to try (fender removal) since the aftermarket steering link is blocking about 2 in of where it could have been stamped. Wanted to eliminate all possibilities and after all the paint stripping, the metal looks like it had been resurfaced after the box welds.

So, if anyone can help...
1) Are the v8s titles normally with the "18" before the rest of the VIN? e.g. 18-123456? I understand it may vary with different states, just curious what the experts say.
2) Was there any star between 18 and the numbers? Example; *18*123456* or 18*123456* versus the *18<->123456*

Sorry so long and will try to get a few pics for the experts, thanks again.

[noel_808]

Here is same two, closer if there is anything that can decipher whether it's a b or 18.

[Carl]

...on my original V8 car, there is a star in front of the 18, a double arrow between the 18 and the VIN #, and a star at end of VIN #. The stars were put there to discourage adding #s. Not sure what the double arrow signifies. Maybe to distinguish between the model # (18) and the VIN #.

[DavidG]

In answer to your two questions, the most common occupant of the space between the '18' and the actual engine number is a dash. The complete number including the '18' is normally included on the title or registration. Exceptions are numerous. Normally, the stars only appear at the beginning and ending for the purpose cited by Carl. Could a star appear in the middle on an original frame? Of course, as the frames weren't being stamped by rocket scientists it could have happened.

Unless something unusual turns up if you do pull the body, I recommend that you stick to the format most commonly encountered.

[rotorwrench]

OK, "VIN Certification Waived" only means that there was not a necessity to get certification for the VIN as presented to the state authorized person who verified it. In Texas you can use a pencil rubbing of a frame number to get a confirmation. Certification would only be necessary if there was no number found on the frame. There must be a number on it somewhere or the guy in Texas had a relative at the DMV. Also, if an entity of the state of Texas (for example) such as a local county impound yard wants to auction off an unclaimed used vehicle, they can use just about anything they want as a number for a title. I've seen this happen before. It's basically a state issued title for the purpose of the state liquidating property that they don't want to get the proceeds that they can collect to pay any expenses or fines.

I'm not implying that this is what you have here but this is a possibility. I've seen stuff like this happen before. I'm just not sure what the procedure is on how they deal with it.

[Jim in Wisconsin]

I'm from Wisconsin, and the title for my 33 has just the 6 digit number with no prefex or stars in a box called "identification no." In another box called "type-gross weight" it says 2DR.
There would be no way to tell if it was a sedan, coupe, roadster or if it had a v8 or 4 cylinder.

[noel_808]

Thanks fellas, learning a lot in this forum, much appreciated

[noel_808]

Rotorwrench, yeah, there is a VIN plaque on the firewall, some here said that would suffice with the cop but the motor control is saying needs to be on the frame in two spots.

[deuce lover]

Noel,Right under the bracket for your steering support on the frame in front of the firewall is the spot where most 32 frames are stamped.George in Kapolei has a 32 sedan.He is also a member here on FordBarn.Go see him and look at that spot on his car.

[Mart]

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I just noticed in the old pic of the front end, the shocks are upside down.

Nice to be able to see the old pics, though, it shows the car has history.

I don't think there is anything in the old pics that would be usable to identify the original frame number or location or whether a 4 or an 8.

Can you tell if the frame is original? Was it swapped out for a repro frame at some point?

Good point made above re the steering bracket. It might be worth going back (carefully) to bare metal in that area to try and locate the original numbers (unless it is a repro frame).

If you look where the cowl hoop body mount pulls down to the top corner of the frame rail, the original rails are flattened slightly there to give the body mount clamping bolt a flat surface to pull against. This detail is often omitted on a repro frame.

Mart.

[Kerk]

On my 32 the number was under the frame webbing at the fire wall leg support. Cut the webbing so it could be seen but not completely. kerk

[noel_808]

deuce lover, thanks, I will try to find him. I live in a town next to Kapolei and go to the saturday night meet ups.

Thanks again Mart, Yeah, the pics definitely helped. In another pic, you can see he repainted the old rails and the flattened spot is there.

I posted a pic of the paint removal I did, that bracket is in a PITA spot and I can't take it off without removing the exhaust header, the horizontal bolt would butt against the header. I figured that spot could be the one but I figured to leave it thinking the numbers most likely wouldn't fit in just that area so I just stopped before I get into more unnecessary disassembly.

Kerk, yeah, the webbing (welding/welting) in the corner was pushed back as far as I could see and I couldn't determine if it was a number or the body just mashing either the fabric or a washerover years. It looked unrecognizable so I didn't try to lift it anymore.

Thanks for the support, I will post the aftermath later

[Mart]

In the picture above, you can see the frame is gennie. the flat spot I was describing is easily visible and the frame side rail is patinated enough to show it is not a repro.

i might be seeing what I want to see, but there is a circular indentation in that rail just inboard and slightly behind the body hoop bolt location (flattened area) that looks like the bottom half of an "8".

Probably just my imagination, but keep digging.

Mart.

[noel_808]

Ended up removing the bracket and lo and behold there it is! Part of an 8 then double arrow with a clearly visible 1 then a barely visible 4. Not what i have from wisconsin (16xxxx) so No I’m contemplating to go all in and lift up the body from the frame. Thing is, it already seems like the Wisconsin number would be OK to use instead, thinking it over...
Also I thought that the 1, 6 and 9’s were different, this 1 looks like the old type.

Does anyone know around what series of numbers or when they started using the different design? I read somewhere that the early numbers may have the old stamp but that double arrow is legit. V8 5w!

[noel_808]

Double arrow!

[deuce lover]

Looks like the "1" is the begining of the V8 Vin #.In the swap early V8 section is an ad for the set of number stamps for sale.You could restamp the frame.

[Mart]

I wouldn't restamp it.

Interesting to see an early style "1" on it. I can't remember when the changeover period was, but I did read about it on another thread on this forum. I have also read from (DavidG I think) that when it comes to early Fords, nothing is cast in stone.

Good point made above, that "1" shows it was originally built as a V8 car.

Never tried this, but I did read on this forum where the application of some sort of acid can help "lift" older stamped numbers. It shows where the metal has been deformed below the surface even though the old top surface has been ground away.

Why would you get a repro title? It's a steel body with an original chassis and pictorial evidence to back up it's history.

At least you have found something.

I know this car is not the sort of thing we normally like to deal with on this particular forum, which is more stock or mildly hopped up original cars, but I, for one, have found it interesting dealing with this car. You can see the history right there in the frame rails.

Now if only we can get you to drop a nicely warmed over flatty between the rails.....

Mart.

[Hoop]

This all appears to be the result of a very clumsy attempt to re-title an old car with a missing title.

It starts with buying an old title. Then grinding off the original serial numbers, maybe all of them if the body is off.

The guys who recommend buying a repro data plate and stamping it ... well, it may "fool some of the people some of the time, but it won't fool all the people all of the time."

Ford Barn and the HAMB both prohibit the advertising/sale of old titles, not just because it is illegal, but because in cases like this, someone gets screwed.

BanjoCutOff.jpg

This is my favorite ... bought this chassis from a guy who was building a "streetrod." The steering wheel was in the way as he removed the body. Funny, I removed the steering wheel nut and the center popped off by hand.

(There's a right way ... and a wrong way.)

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Mart

Never tried this, but I did read on this forum where the application of some sort of acid can help "lift" older stamped numbers. It shows where the metal has been deformed below the surface even though the old top surface has been ground away. Mart.

There are several methods to "raise" the original stamped numbers. It is almost impossible to grind them to the point that they can not be recovered. One method uses a battery and steel wool others acid. A search on the Barn and on the HAMB should return threads on various methods and lots of discussion on the topic. I also would not recommend attempting to alter the numbers in any way (including duplicating them). There are also threads on this topic and stories of what can happen if this is detected!

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by noel_808

Ended up removing the bracket and lo and behold there it is! Part of an 8 then double arrow with a clearly visible 1 then a barely visible 4. Not what i have from wisconsin (16xxxx) so No I’m contemplating to go all in and lift up the body from the frame. Thing is, it already seems like the Wisconsin number would be OK to use instead, thinking it over...
Also I thought that the 1, 6 and 9’s were different, this 1 looks like the old type.

Does anyone know around what series of numbers or when they started using the different design? I read somewhere that the early numbers may have the old stamp but that double arrow is legit. V8 5w!

Go to http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/f...lnumbers.htmBe sure to read to the bottom.

Charlie Stephens

[Mart]

This thread discusses the font style.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=231215

In this case the trans was stamped with the new font and the frame seems to have old font or a mixture of old and new.

If the frame number in the link above is higher than the one in this thread, it could very well be that the old style digit stamps were still being used.

Mart.

Mart.

[rotorwrench]

Certain type & dilution of acid will bring up a visible signs of impact and associated hardening of the stamp characters due to the change in the material density of the steel where it was punched in. There is enough there to get a good result as done in the forensic sciences.

If the number on the body plate mentioned previously matches the title, I would try to go that route first. That Texas title is telling and they may consider it a state issued title number. You can always attempt to bring up the numbers later if you wish but procuring a title for those numbers may be problematic.

[noel_808]

Feels like an episode of CSI

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by noel_808

Feels like an episode of CSI

That's true!

[FritzJr]

Take a look at the pictures that I posted on thread: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=231215

You can clearly see the old style font on a fairly late '32 frame. The "1" on the frame is very close to the partial stamping that you are reading as a "4". I have had titles for '32's which did not state the 18- prefix. I have also seen an original '32 frame that had no prefix on the frame numbers.

[rotorwrench]

Ford had a good number of final assembly plants around the world. The engine transmission packages were stamped after assembly. The frames weren't stamped until the engine trans package was installed at the assembly plants. There are all sorts of variations due to this practice. I've used enough steel stamps to know that they do wear out when in everyday use. The stamps were hardened when they were manufactured but even hardened steel can only take so many blows. They likely had times when they used what ever stamp was at hand at the different assembly plants until replacements were available. Production sure wasn't going to stop due to a dull stamp.

Frames were generally marked with the serial number is two or three places so not all of the stampings had the engine/transmission prefix designator stamped on.

[noel_808]

Gonna give the acid a try for s&giggles.