Model B engine serial number question

[miketx]

Hi,
New guy here. My father in law recently passed, and left the family his 1930 Model A hardtop pickup. The engine serial number in the truck maps to April 1930, and the dash indicates post June 1930.
However, he also has a spare engine block in the bed. He always said it was a "Model C" engine and that he bought it from a Model A club guy years ago, who bought a bunch of these engines as new/old stock (or something like that).
Anyway, it does have the "C" on the cylinder head, and I realize that means it is likely a '32-34 Model B engine. But the serial number stamped on the side doesn't have any A/AA/alpha character......just a *1008174*. What does that indicate?

[Bob C]

That's a Russian GAZ engine. Ford Obsolete in CA imported a bunch of them
in the mid 60's.

Bob

[miketx]

Thanks Bob. I figured it was something different, as my search of serial numbers was coming up blank. The timing maps well also: my father in law was a professor at UC Davis in the late 60s and he had the Model A there....so it's very probable that he bought the engine from Ford Obsolete.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by miketx

Hi,
New guy here. My father in law recently passed, and left the family his 1930 Model A hardtop pickup. The engine serial number in the truck maps to April 1930, and the dash indicates post June 1930.
However, he also has a spare engine block in the bed. He always said it was a "Model C" engine and that he bought it from a Model A club guy years ago, who bought a bunch of these engines as new/old stock (or something like that).
Anyway, it does have the "C" on the cylinder head, and I realize that means it is likely a '32-34 Model B engine. But the serial number stamped on the side doesn't have any A/AA/alpha character......just a *1008174*. What does that indicate?

Hey Mike,
I have a GAZ Russian B from the trailer load that was brought in decades ago by Joe. Has markings that you show on block.
Interesting to know if Joe and your Dad were in same Model A club. Joe was a most interesting old car guy that one could know.
Is it possible to confirm that Joe was the guy in club with your Dad, or that GAZ was bought from someone else ? Joe was the ONLY guy known who brought in a whole tractor trailer batch, to my knowledge

PM, if you wish.

[miketx]

Interesting...it's possible that Joe is "that guy". Story sounds the same.

I found Alex's receipt for his MAFCA membership (member # 2688).

[1931 flamingo]

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I didn't think the B's had s/n's or am I thinking of the V8's??
Paul in CT

[KUDZUVIPER]

US B engines had the serial number stamped on the bell housing above the starter, this GAZ does not have a bell housing attached, but I sure would love to have one, or a German B that was produced up until the 50's.

[29Phaeton]

I have a Russian GAZ B block in my Cabriolet and there is no engine number...the area where the number goes is blank. I'm told this was standard for Russian B engines. Mine did come Ford Obsolete in Long Beach, CA.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by miketx

Interesting...it's possible that Joe is "that guy". Story sounds the same.

I found Alex's receipt for his MAFCA membership (member # 2688).

Hey Mike,
If you have a telephone # on the membership receipt or any place else, I would like to confirm that Joe was (or not) a member of that club.

As you can see in my GAZ block picture (faintly due to paint), there is an engine # stamped. The first three numbers (100) are same on your block and on my block.

Good luck on your efforts to all the sorting that has to be done .

[lsr490]

Just ran across this, sorry for opening an old thread, couple of question. Do only Russian blocks have "3M" cast into them like the top picture? Are these blocks just as crack susceptible as Henry's "B"s, better overall worse overall opinions ???
Thanks,
Bill

[Synchro909]

There's one guy who posts occasionally on this forum who will know all these answers. I suggest you find M2M in the list of barners and send him an email (not PM)

[M2M]

Hi, I've seen photos of this particular GAZ engine before; a guy on Facebook contacted me a few months ago. The engine number puts it well into the 1960s, but this block actually has a casting date of Dec 1966...take a good look at the block and you'll find it. The number on the head is also likely to be a casting date of Dec 1965 which you can see in the photo above. The last digit in a Russian casting date is often (but not always) the batch number so you need to remove it to understand the date. In the late 1950s B block production was moved from the GAZ plant to the ZMZ plant (Zavolzhsky Motorny Zavod).

http://www.zmz.ru/eng/about/factory

These B blocks were made in small numbers until the early 1970s.

[lsr490]

Thanks,
I"ll post some pictures of what I have when I get an opportunity. I was looking for the low hanging fruit of quick general I.D. when I was asking about the "3M".
For what it is worth, and I know its a shot in the dark, but here goes... I currently own Cal Rose's truck if anyone knew him or the history of the truck that would be helpful.

Again thanks,
Bill

[M2M]

Originally Posted by lsr490

Just ran across this, sorry for opening an old thread, couple of question. Do only Russian blocks have "3M" cast into them like the top picture? Are these blocks just as crack susceptible as Henry's "B"s, better overall worse overall opinions ???
Thanks,
Bill

Not all Russian blocks are marked "3M". "3M" are the Russian letters "ZM" ("3" is not the number "three"), which probably stands for "Zavolzhsky Motorny", the factory which I mentioned above. Earlier B blocks do have GAZ markings.

[lsr490]

Originally Posted by M2M

Not all Russian blocks are marked "3M". "3M" are the Russian letters "ZM" ("3" is not the number "three"), which probably stands for "Zavolzhsky Motorny", the factory which I mentioned above. Earlier B blocks do have GAZ markings.

But then if a block is marked "3M" it is a Russian block, corrector? I believe mine is a 36 or 37 based on memory I'll post pictures later. Any there any advantages or disadvantages to these engines?
Again Thanks,
Bill

[katy]

What kind of water pump is that in Bob C's first picture (post #2)?

[Jim Brierley]

The German "B's" that I have seen had an aluminum pan, also had full-pressure oiling and different-looking rods. Internally, all B parts were interchangeable, if not identical. As far as I know???

[lsr490]

Here we go:
1st Picture is of the block,
2nd Only casting mark on the top of the head is the "C"
3rd Is the date of the head April 30th 1937 correct?
4th Is the date of the block July 23rd 1962 correct
5th is the side cover

Again thanks,
Bill

I'm not sure where the pictures in the post went so i guess we'll have to use the link

http://s802.photobucket.com/user/lsr490/library/

[lsr490]

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by lsr490

Here we go:
1st Picture is of the block,
2nd Only casting mark on the top of the head is the "C"
3rd Is the date of the head April 30th 1937 correct?
4th Is the date of the block July 23rd 1962 correct
5th is the side cover

Again thanks,
Bill

I'm not sure where the pictures in the post went so i guess we'll have to use the link

http://s802.photobucket.com/user/lsr490/library/

This may be a dumb question but is there any reason you don't just post them directly on Fordbarn?

Charlie Stephens

[Charlie Stephens]

You might want to check out the back issues of the Secrets of Speed Society magazine. I think I saw something about rebuilding the engine in that magazine.

Charlie Stephens

[M2M]

Originally Posted by lsr490

Here we go:
1st Picture is of the block,
2nd Only casting mark on the top of the head is the "C"
3rd Is the date of the head April 30th 1937 correct?
4th Is the date of the block July 23rd 1962 correct
5th is the side cover

The block is Russian and yes it seems to be the date you mentioned. What's the engine number...or has that been changed to match a US Title?


Head is not Russian. Remember that Russian B heads used metric plugs.

[lsr490]

M2M the number has been changed, and I was 99.9% positive it was not a Russian head.
Thanks for verifying things for me
Charlie thanks for the info as well.
Still the unanswered question... quality of the casting?
Again thanks,
Bill

[lsr490]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

This may be a dumb question but is there any reason you don't just post them directly on Fordbarn?

Charlie Stephens

They wont up load for me, not sure what I'm doing wrong

[ursus]

QUOTE: "Still the unanswered question... quality of the casting?

I have been told by several sources that the Russian castings were of superior quality compared to the Ford Model B castings, which are notorious for cracks. The appearance of the Russian castings is less attractive.

[lsr490]

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Originally Posted by ursus

QUOTE: The appearance of the Russian castings is less attractive.

You are dead on, base on the external appearance that's what made me question the integrity.
Everyone thanks for all the info
Bill

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by lsr490

You are dead on, base on the external appearance that's what made me question the integrity.
Everyone thanks for all the info
Bill

I don't know anything of your 'casting', whether you meant inside and/or outside, in your original posting.

I can tell you that my Russian B casting inside and outside was and is equal to or better than domestic B castings. B castings is all I've ever worked with !

My engine was complete and in cosmoline when purchased. I only used the block for a rebuild and it was machined for different reasons. The casting had no flaws which were revealed via machining and it still runs strong with no cracks/no leaks !

[lsr490]

So now that were a page and a half into this, lets start from the beginning.
I've been looking for a CC31PU for over 2 years, this past July the stars aligned.
So my dream truck before the purchase was a stock looking, driving truck.With the plan to start slowly making it mine, hydraulic brakes, t170-176 hybrid trans and a strong 4 cylinder, NO V8.
What I found was a really nice looking California PU with freshly rebuilt mechanical brakes, CI drums, Flathead Teds ect... which I love. It has a New Mitchell transmission and overdrive.. no notched crossmember or split wishbone for me. The truck has a "B" motor in it which was a plus.
So the current plans are Tatterfield intake, Holley 94, Mallory distributor. I've been communicating with Tod Buttermore about a 6:1 "B" head that coming soon. Long term maybe a replacement block, and last but not least the cookbook, Jim Brierley 4 bangers and me.
Now here is where this strange twist of fate kicks in, I ran across this tread.
Before the thread I was really considering a replacement block based on the questionable soundness of a "B" block, I've not been inside of it but the outside had in my opinion a lot of casting flash, but I believe I'm in the clear.
So now I have bared my soul based on years of lurking some will say this belongs on the HAMB, but this is not a Pinto motor, so I'm here to stay
So a little about me ...I'm an A&P Mechanic not a novelist so please forgive my grammar and punctation.
Thanks again

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by lsr490

So now that were a page and a half into this, lets start from the beginning.
I've been looking for a CC31PU for over 2 years, this past July the stars aligned.
So my dream truck before the purchase was a stock looking, driving truck.With the plan to start slowly making it mine, hydraulic brakes, t170-176 hybrid trans and a strong 4 cylinder, NO V8.
What I found was a really nice looking California PU with freshly rebuilt mechanical brakes, CI drums, Flathead Teds ect... which I love. It has a New Mitchell transmission and overdrive.. no notched crossmember or split wishbone for me. The truck has a "B" motor in it which was a plus.
So the current plans are Tatterfield intake, Holley 94, Mallory distributor. I've been communicating with Tod Buttermore about a 6:1 "B" head that coming soon. Long term maybe a replacement block, and last but not least the cookbook, Jim Brierley 4 bangers and me.
Now here is where this strange twist of fate kicks in, I ran across this tread.
Before the thread I was really considering a replacement block based on the questionable soundness of a "B" block, I've not been inside of it but the outside had in my opinion a lot of casting flash, but I believe I'm in the clear.
So now I have bared my soul based on years of lurking some will say this belongs on the HAMB, but this is not a Pinto motor, so I'm here to stay
So a little about me ...I'm an A&P Mechanic not a novelist so please forgive my grammar and punctation.
Thanks again

If I had a Model B engine in a Model A Ford I would run one of the many heads designed for the Model A (as a mater of that is what I am doing). I think Tod makes one. High quality rebuilt 4 bolt water pumps are more available than the 3 bolt ones. I think the 3 bolt pump would put a slight kink in the upper hose on a Model A but I can't say that I have seen it, is anyone doing it?

By the way, what is a "t170-176 hybrid trans"?

You should put your general location in your profile.

Charlie Stephens

[lsr490]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

If I had a Model B engine in a Model A Ford I would run one of the many heads designed for the Model A (as a mater of that is what I am doing). I think Tod makes one. High quality rebuilt 4 bolt water pumps are more available than the 3 bolt ones. I think the 3 bolt pump would put a slight kink in the upper hose on a Model A but I can't say that I have seen it, is anyone doing it?

By the way, what is a "t170-176 hybrid trans"?

You should put your general location in your profile.

Charlie Stephens

Currently running a NOS water pump and I have a spare.
Everything I have is already setup for a "B", so I'm just going to change the head.
Well I guess I've hit a few nerves on my "T170-176" hybrid based on my PM's this morning. All i can say to that is I currently have a Mitchell trans and overdrive, so that puts that project off the stove. I however one day may to Tech on it, but not on this thread.
Thanks for the heads up on the profile, I guess it slip my mind.
Thanks again
Bill