hole in Cyl. now what

[4tford]

221 block with sleeves out and bored to 3-3/16. This cavity is quite close to the bottom of the cylinder. What are the chances of this block being usable as is? What are the chances of the hole opening up??? Thanks Bill

[Karl Wolf]

That looks like it goes to water, and that it's low in the cylinder, not a good candidate for sleeving- not enough room for seal that close to the bottom, with step cut for sleeve...
Let's hope I'm wrong... That it doesn't run into water, round off sharp edge, run as is-
Karl

[bobH]

another edit... I misunderstood what I was looking at. Having read Bill's post below, maybe 'as-is' is an option. Sure would be nice to know what material thickness is left in the 'divot' ????
Seems like, if this engine has run for the last 60-70 years, as-is, why not continue ???
Maybe a little light tapping with a punch in that area... see what it sounds like. If it's a dull sound, and pokes right through, you would want to know. If it feels solid... good.
Worst case... sleeve, as already posted.
??? Just an idea, JMO

[4tford]

The brown color is oil on the casting. If I get a chance tomorrow I will clean it with acetone and fill it with water and a couple pounds of air and see if it weeps at all. It does not look like a piece fell out but more like flaw ( hole) in the cast. Bill

[richard crow]

221 block bored to 3 3/16 beter get a radator from a kenthworth truck

[f1builder]

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maybe clean it up, layer it in with jbweld, hone it and run it. with a .125 + bore it might not last long but you never know, it might be running when we are all long gone. love the flatties.

[40 Deluxe]

Well, let's see: A 221 with sleeves leaves the factory with a bore of 3.1455" (to allow for sleeve thickness) so going to a 3 3/16" bore is an overbore of only .042". Don't see why you would need that Kenworh radiator!

[bobH]

40... Looking at what you posted... A .042 over-bore on the factory bore of 3.1455 is only .021 material removed on the radius (wall). Almost nothing.
Are the sleeves only 41-1/2 (or .040) thou thick ?
Sounds like cooling is a non-issue ??? Might even run cooler, because of no heat transfer (barrier) from the sleeve to the CI ???

[JWL]

I am having a problem getting a perspective on what that picture is intended to show. I am unable to offer an opinion without more pictures.

[4tford]

couple more pics. Not the easiest place to get pics of.

[Russ/40]

Looks pretty harmless to me. A pressure check as you say will tell us if your in water. I doubt it though.

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

It looks kind of scarry to me. Take a pen light and look down the water holes on the lower deck surface. Usually those old blocks are half fill with mud and crud. That may be rusted through from the inside and not leaking because the crud is plugging it right now. I wouldn't be scared to sleeve it and leave about 1/8in. step on the bottom. The block is pretty thick for about 1/2in. on the bottom. Walt

[Joe KCMO]

I had a similar situation in a recent motor of mine. It runs fine with good compression, temperature and oil pressure. My first question is does the bottom ring reach that pocket. It looks to me to be a defect in the original casting and has always been there. Did you happen to notice anything there before you bored? It being a defect the cylinder surface was only as thick of half the diameter you bored, pretty thin. If you have a substanial amount of money invested in the motor, I cannot see what further damage would happen, run it. These are not nascar engines doing 10000 RPM's for 6 hours. Enjoy.

[4tford]

Just to back up a bit, the motor has had the 8 sleeves removed due to a couple that were badly scored. It was then bored and honed to fit std. 3-3/16 pistons. I found this during assembly. No idea why it was not found before. The block is very clean inside and the more I look at it (without the camera) the more I am sure it does not go into the water jacket and it is not as deep as the pics make it look.

[DICK SPADARO]

This might be the reason it had sleeves. After reading over your post and others opinions you can take this as a suggestion. I believe the blocks are rather thick in this area so this may be nothing more than a sand cast flaw that was covered up by cylinder sleeve repair. Since the defect is so low on the skirt it will have little to no effect on the piston and very little additional oil blow by so running it will not damage the compression rings. The worst that this can do is pop and fill the oil pan with water. You will notice this because the oil will look like it is a chocolate milk shake and the water temp will spike.

To check this defect for being solid or just a rust bubble waiting to happen, take your Bernzomatic propane torch and heat the defect area right up. If this area is a rust clod the concentration of heat will be sufficient enough to cause the rust area to pop right out and you will see if it is a cavity. If it doesn't it is just a defect and you are good to go.

[JWL]

I would take a 90 degree scriber and probe around in there with substatial pressure. As for operational problems, there will not be any unless it is into water. It scares me. The casting pattern for the sand core has (from memory) a 1/2 inch radius and the bottom wall of the block has a .260 nominal thickness. That defect looks allot like a rust hole and it is positioned precariously.

[Marv]

If you are going to use heat on it, just go ahead and silver sodder it. It does not take as much heat as braze and should keep it from leaking later on. Marv

[Karl Wolf]

I would do like JBL says, Then pressure test it... Then round off the edges of the hole, If only a bit of sanding, just to lose the sharp edge... then run it, looks too low to see a ring...
Karl

[rotorwrench]

The old 221 blocks can be bored out far enough to put in a sleeve and still have your 3.187" bore. The problem is that they usually go through into the water jackets so you have to get creative intalling the sleaves to keep the top deck rigid and seal the water where it's suposed to be. I've read the article in Tex Smith's flathead book about the 37 engine that was sleeved this way to run it as a 255 CID for a 35 coupe in the Great American Race. They used JB weld at the tops & bottoms of the sleeves at installation.

Kerby

[4tford]

First of all I would like to thank everyone for all the responses. I have determined there is no water leakage at all and it seems quite solid. The the 4th ring will reach to the cavity. Will this be a problem and if so is it acceptable to run with just the top 3 rings? Thanks again, Bill