'60 Edsel Convertible Fakes

[ledzep30513]

I have read what someone who have to do to make a counterfeit convertible car using a Ford Sunliner and parts from a Ranger, My question is how hard would this really have been and how many are or were estimated to have been created? I have a 60 Edsel convertible, that I'm working with. Dad just bought it in FL. It has a Ford VIN but has the right wheel base length for the Edsel. VIN plate is rather new looking and if a fake was being made you would think they would have had the brains to at least create a vin that would "look" correct.

Thanks, Jim

[mercman from oz]

1960 Edsel Ranger Convertible

[mercman from oz]

Wheelbases :- 1960 Ford = 119" - 1960 Edsel = 120"
You say that your Edsel has the correct 120" Wheelbase?
With only an Inch difference, in my mind, that would be very difficult to measure.

[KULTULZ]

The 1960 EDSEL was a FANCY TRIM FORD. Would be very easy to duplicate.

Does your PATENT PLATE look like the one shown below?

I don't mean to run you off, but there are many EDSEL sites that will give the information you seek much more quickly. GIGGLE EDSEL and you will see the sites.

1958/1960 EDSEL had separate SHOP MANUAL and PARTS CATALOGS.

If you don't find what you need, get back.

[mercman from oz]

Edsel Patent Plate

[KULTULZ]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

The 1960 EDSEL was a FANCY TRIM FORD. Would be very easy to duplicate.

Case In Point Attached -

FROM THIS -

TO THIS -

[Gene F]

You said you bought it in Florida, but do not show where you are. If there are questions, most states default to the VIN on the frame. From there they may even wish to issue a new state VIN (which are recognized in all 50 states).

[KULTULZ]

Found this while giggling on my inner-screen -

Counterfeit 1960 Edsel Convertibles do exist! By taking hood and rear deck sheet metal from a 1960 Edsel sedan and modifying a 1960 Ford Sunliner, you have an Edsel forgery. (At a very rare production total of 76, and prices reaching $47,000 for a mint 1960 Edsel ragtop, it's easy to see why it happens). Don't be fooled - a true Edsel convertible has a correct dataplate solidly riveted to the pillar, a cross-member on the frame, and vehicle ID numbers that match the dataplate, found at various points along the frame.

SOURCE - https://edsel.com/pages/edsel60.htm

[Gene F]

Kultulz, did you see this on that Edsel page? "Crankcase capacity - 8 cyl (qt): 5 (6 if equipped with filter)" The standard V-8 was still the 292 y-black. There is a reason why that extra quart goes in the engine...

[KULTULZ]

Yeah, and I don't understand it.

I have an old FORD LUBE GUIDE I can dig out. Will be back.

[KULTULZ]

DETAILED PHOTOS @

https://www.mecum.com/lots/370095/19...r-convertible/

[Gene F]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Yeah, and I don't understand it.

I have an old FORD LUBE GUIDE I can dig out. Will be back.

Here's the deal. Y-blocks CAN get into a cycle of starving for oil, and then have ample oil, and repeat. This only happens at RPMs about 4,000 RPMs and up. If you put a Y-block on a dyno with oil added only to the full mark on the dipstick (4 qts, plus 1) the thing is fine to drive back and forth to work. But sustained RPM will smoke a crankshaft, or camshaft bearing.

Pretty important for a Y-block to have regular oil changes, to keep "oil flakes" from building up. Gotta keep the oil return flow as good as possible.

[Gene F]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

DETAILED PHOTOS @

https://www.mecum.com/lots/370095/19...r-convertible/

$82,000 and it did not hit the reserve.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Gene F

Here's the deal. Y-blocks CAN get into a cycle of starving for oil, and then have ample oil, and repeat. This only happens at RPMs about 4,000 RPMs and up. If you put a Y-block on a dyno with oil added only to the full mark on the dipstick (4 qts, plus 1) the thing is fine to drive back and forth to work. But sustained RPM will smoke a crankshaft, or camshaft bearing.

Pretty important for a Y-block to have regular oil changes, to keep "oil flakes" from building up. Gotta keep the oil return flow as good as possible.

GOOD POINT! -

Actually, any engine can become oil starved. Reason(s) for a deep sump oil pans and HI-PRESS/HI-VOL oil pumps and any number of internal modifications.

I remember when the 1968 CJ came out and FORD HP said to run an additional 1qt. of oil in the pan for drag (stock class - no deep sump allowed).

As long as one has correct CCV (and possibly a windage tray ) the oil won't be sucked up on the crank throws. Most of it @ HI-RPM will be trying to find it's way back to the sump anyways.

[5851a]

I thought all the ohv 8 cylinders were 6 qts till 65, trucks and hp engines stayed at six. New stuff is all over the map.

[ledzep30513]

I am located in Georgia and I know my VIN Plate is to say the least inaccurate.

[ledzep30513]

How does somebody upload photos? Can't seem to figure it out.
Found out you can not use the Quick Reply to add attachments.

[ledzep30513]

These are a few photos of the '60

[ledzep30513]

The Vin plate only

[ledzep30513]

Originally Posted by mercman from oz

Wheelbases :- 1960 Ford = 119" - 1960 Edsel = 120"
You say that your Edsel has the correct 120" Wheelbase?
With only an Inch difference, in my mind, that would be very difficult to measure.

Measured it twice and was 120" Will be measuring it again using a different tape and points of measurement,
Jim

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by ledzep30513

The Vin plate only

See if this helps - https://www.edselmotors.com/vintageh...60decoder.html

[KULTULZ]

The WB should be the same. All the 1960 EDSEL was is a glorified FORD.

Does yours have the EDSEL HORN RING?

(PHOTO with the MECUM site).

[ledzep30513]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

See if this helps - https://www.edselmotors.com/vintageh...60decoder.html

I have seen that page and decoded the entire VIN and the VIN indicates the car was made in LA, CA. No Edsel's were made in California.

[Gene F]

That is the most perfect looking VIN tag I have ever seen. I guess they could have hit it with steel wool, and then silk screened over it.

[KULTULZ]

This may help explain -

https://www.martiauto.com/tags.cfm

The TAGS are legal to reproduce. My understanding is only the VIN cannot be changed but any other info on the TAG can by customer desire.

I am sure there are companies and individuals that produce HOT TAGS. It is a money maker.

https://www.martiauto.com/faqfocus.cfm?qid=23

The 1965 Mustang had four different door data plates blanks. The spacing of the stampings was different for each assembly plant. The Dearborn assembly plant had two different spacing patterns dependent on when the vehicle was produced.

[KULTULZ]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

All 1960 Edsels were produced in the Louisville, KY manufacturing plant.
(Although a few cars from the Allen Park, MI pilot plant are still in existence)

https://edsel.com/pages/edsel60.htm

[miker98038]

You really need to find the stamped VIN on the frame. And no matter what it says, you probably need an attorney to walk you thru the process. If someone has created a VIN, even if GA accepts and registers off the FL paperwork, you may not be in the clear. At least in WA, you get caught with a fake VIN, you’re first in line for the fraud charge, possession of stolen property, or whatever else they find. Not withstanding the fact you’re already apparently the victim of a fraudulent sale.

[KULTULZ]

I know here in WV (and MD) that the law was changed. There is a section on the TITLE that requires the buyers info be entered AT SALE/TRANSFER.

If one releases the title to a buyer without that info, the seller is responsible for anything that the car is involved in until it is re-registered.

When selling a car to a private buyer it is wise not to drop the insurance for a while. And don't let him drive off with your tags and/or insurance card.

[ledzep30513]

The title matches the VIN on the door frame. I have not had the time yet to find the SN on the frame. I was hoping that the SN would have been stamped on more than just 2 locations, one being inaccessible.

[KULTULZ]

Here is an earlier discussion on a 1964 FORD - https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=333410

Maybe it will help.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by ledzep30513

I am located in Georgia and I know my VIN Plate is to say the least inaccurate.

So you understand the PLATE is incorrect?

It is for a 1960 EDSEL RANGER 4DR SEDAN.

SERIES CODE - 12

BODY CODE - 58A

ENGINE CODE - 223CI INLINE SIX

[ledzep30513]

Yes I do understand the plate is totally wrong. The car is a Convertible 60 Edsel Ranger with a 352 V-8.
I read the VIN as follows:
0 is for 1960
J is for Los Angeles CA
55 is for 2-DR Sunliner Convert. (Galaxie)
Y is for 8-352 4BBL carb
128655 indicates Production Line Number (which does fit in the values for Ford umbers in 1960, but not with Edsel)
The above information is using FORD VIN decoding, as a J code does not exist in an Edsel VIN. 55Y doesn't exist either for a Body Style.
Continuing with FORD
Body: 73 doesn't exist as it should have included a Alpha character, "73" doesn't exist for Ford either, using Edsel '73' same here as the Ford, so to match the actual car it should have been either as a Ford 76A for Galaxie Convertible or 76B for Sunliner Convertible or as an Edsel 76B 2 dr. Convertible.
Color: C is for Turquoise in Edsel and its for Aquamarine in Ford the car is yes one of those two, at least this bit is probably correct! Yay!
Trim: 47 is in Ford Turquoise, Vinyl which it is, Yay! again another match! doesn't exist in Edsel
Date: 13J indicates 13th day of Sept in Ford and Edsel
Trans.: 3 indicates 2 sp. Fordomatic in Ford or 2 sp Mile-O-Matic in Edsel, it actually is a 2-sp Tranny so another match, Yay!
Axle: 3 indicates 3.10:1 Ford & Edsel Yay! the last item matches!

[KULTULZ]

You can't use FORD DECODE for an EDSEL.

2nd Character is 1 - Louisville

Whatever EDSEL this plate came off of had a 223CI. You say it has a 352CI now?

I never bought an EDSEL WSM-MPC. Bad on me ...

And I verified the WB - 119 - FORD / 120 EDSEL - Why I don't know.

[ledzep30513]

I used the Ford decode method because the SN doesn't read as an Edsel Number it reads as a Ford for 1960 the idiot who stamped it didn't know how to create A: a correct 'fake' tag or B: a correct replacement tag for the actual car. I simply have mixed info of the entire Body tag and VIN serial number and until I can see or photograph the stamping on the frame. I referenced both Ford and Edsel as if its a fake it should be a FORD set of numbers and alpha characters through and through and if it's an Edsel the same and not a mixed up combination of both with some of the fields being neither one.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by ledzep30513

I used the Ford decode method because the SN doesn't read as an Edsel Number ...

The PLATE and BUILD INFO is EDSEL - Entirely different from FORD, MERC or LINC.

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

It is for a 1960 EDSEL RANGER 4DR SEDAN.

SERIES CODE - 12

BODY CODE - 58A

ENGINE CODE - 223CI INLINE SIX

Someone took the plate from a 4DR EDSEL and hung it on your car (whatever car it is). It looks like they had it redone as it is so clean.

ALL 1960 EDSELS were built at the Louisville, KY ASSY PLANT.

[Gene F]

So how long have you had the car? Maybe you should contact an attorney and see about getting your money back? The car may be hot.

[KULTULZ]

If the car is truly a 1960 FORD SUNLINER, the original (correct) PATENT PLATE was most likely tossed/destroyed.

I never came across this as I couldn't afford a collector car or perform a true restoration.

The closest I came was with a 1967 GT500 as it had a SHELBY PATENT PLATE rather than a FORD. I had to walk out and stencil the plate @ the MD MVA.

[5851a]

JMO but the tag clearly looks reproduced and the rivets are installed wrong. When Ford installed the rivets they just mushroomed them out so they still have a back to them. During restoration many just install them with some type of punch, that's why they look like a hollow rivet. Again just my opinion.

[ledzep30513]

I also believe the tag is reproduced as well. I explained in an earlier post that reading the VIN and Body Tag info, the designations used on my tag are a mix of both Ford and Edsel and even some that fit neither. When I get the the VIN from the frame, I will post it here.

[ledzep30513]

This is my VIN that I know is incorrect, the other VIN photo in this thread is not mine.

Jim

[ledzep30513]

Did Ford use "build sheets" ? I am referring to the document usually found under the front seat between the springs and the cushion material, if memory serves ne right. I have seen one from a GM Chevrolet product, just don't remember what year it was and when they started or ended.

[KULTULZ]

See if this helps - https://www.secondchancegarage.com/p...sheets-2-1.cfm

[ledzep30513]

Yes it did. Thank you, now to see if one was left in the car.

[Ford blue blood]

I found the build sheet for my 58 Pacer tucked in the dashboard next to the driver's door knee knocker. It was folded up and tucked in just under the garnish molding. Not sure how or when, it did not have any "marking" on it to indicate it was ever in a different location.