46 Convertible Top Hydro Electric Schematic

[fortyonerag]

All,

I have searched this, but to no avail. I'm helping a friend get his 46 convertible top to work.

The car is stock 6V +ve earth and has a hydro electric system. Pump mounted on the firewall and hydraulic rams in the rear.

The pump runs and rams move, but I'm able to get the hydraulic pump solenoid to operate. I'm told a 12V replacement solenoid will work on 6V, but I have my doubts

Is anyone able to provide a wiring schematic for this system? I'm keen to understand the working of the actuator switch and directional hydraulic valve.

Many thanks

[bitterbierce]

Originally Posted by fortyonerag

All,

I have searched this, but to no avail. I'm helping a friend get his 46 convertible top to work.

The car is stock 6V +ve earth and has a hydro electric system. Pump mounted on the firewall and hydraulic rams in the rear.

The pump runs and rams move, but I'm able to get the solenoid to operate. I'm told a 12V replacement solenoid will work on 6V, but I have my doubts

Is anyone able to provide a wiring schematic for this system? I'm keen to understand the working of the actuator switch and hydraulic valve.

Many thanks

I also have this very same year and system. However, because I am just about to begin the restoration it will take me some time to get there, to the top electrics. I am not too sure that a 12V solenoid can replace the 6V because they are designed with a different current in mind. MAgnetic flow is totally dependent in current, not volts and, since it is meant to work for some time, not intermitently, you could very well cook off the solenoid.

[tubman]

All I can add is that, when I built my engine test stand, I wired it for 12 volts, including a generic 12 V starter solenoid. (The first engine I needed to test was a '56 Chrysler hemi.) About 6 months later, I wanted to test a flathead, so I modified the stand to be able to run either 6 or 12 volts (which was not a trivial task). I used it to start and run my '51 Mercury engine for a couple of months prior to installing it in my car. Some time during this process, I realized that I had not changed the solenoid. It connected immediately every time I hit the starter button and never failed once.

I would try a 12 volt solenoid and it will probably work fine. Worst case, it will not work, but since it's only function is to pass current through, there is no way it could do any harm. Other than the 12 volt solenoid being prohibitively expensive, there's really nothing to lose.

[fortyonerag]

^^^^^^^Thanks gents.

Does anyone have a wiring schematic for this system, or even something generic that's close?

[slowforty]

Try ClassicCarWiring .com

[bitterbierce]

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Originally Posted by fortyonerag

^^^^^^^Thanks gents.

Does anyone have a wiring schematic for this system, or even something generic that's close?

I'll see what I can do this weekend to make a sketch of what I have

[fortyonerag]

I'm pretty sure the hydraulic pump only runs in one direction and that the actuator is also a directional valve for the hydraulics as well as switching on the pump.

There are a few other electrical components on the inside of the firewall I'm unsure of (and I'm no stranger to auto elec).

[fortyonerag]

Originally Posted by bitterbierce

I'll see what I can do this weekend to make a sketch of what I have

Many thanks

[bitterbierce]

Originally Posted by fortyonerag

I'm pretty sure the hydraulic pump only runs in one direction and that the actuator is also a directional valve for the hydraulics as well as switching on the pump.

There are a few other electrical components on the inside of the firewall I'm unsure of (and I'm no stranger to auto elec).

from memory that is so

[rotorwrench]

Hydro-E-Lectric is about the only company that specializes in in parts for the older automobiles. They may be able to help if an experienced owner doesn't chime in. They generally use solenoid valving to swap the ram cylinder direction from one side to the other for pressure and return.

Many solenoids will work on 6 or 12-volt since the windings just require a current to operate more than a carrier voltage. The 12-volt unit used on 6-volt may be sluggish though since it may have less windings in it. A person would just have to try it. You might check with the Hydro-E-Lectric folks & see what they recommend.

[fortyonerag]

I have a brand new 12V solenoid here that just won't do a thing on 6V, sigh....I'm thinking there may be 'dual voltage' units, and units designed specifically for 12V.

[RKS.PA]

I second rotorwrench's advice above. When I got my '47, the top mechanism was shot. Originally, brake fluid was the hydraulic fluid that Ford used and it had turned into a "solid" in my system. I did a complete rebuild of the electronics, pump, cylinders etc.with help from HYDRO-E-LECTRIC. Very nice people to deal with and great at answering my questions along the way. They are in Punta Gorda, Florida. Phone 941.639.0437. email: [email protected]. Maybe not that handy for you in Australia.


By the way, after I flushed all the old brake fluid out of the system, I am now using ATF....much less destructive to paint....I was very careful, but still managed to do some paint damage to my front left fender!!


Best of luck, it's worth it in the end

[rotorwrench]

If you look at just a single catalog on solenoids from a company like Cole Hersee, you will get an idea how many different types are available and what voltages they work at. A 6-volt will work on 12-volt but not in a continuous duty cycle or it may burn a wire over time. Working a 12-volt solenoid or relay on 6-volt is not an ideal solution. Some may work and some not. http://colehersee.com.au/switches/solenoids/


They don't have any 6-volt types there in that link but you can see all the different design types. Some have fine windings for continuous duty and some have heavy windings for intermittent rapid duty. There are different working voltage rating for the main contact terminals as well. There are still a few that make solenoids for 6-volt service but no where near what there used to be.

[Bob C]

Here are the different internal wiring diagrams that may help along with the above information rotorwrench posted.


Bob

[rotorwrench]

The photos/diagrams included here are from the 1949 through 1951 Lincoln Mercury shop manual and should be relatively close to what was used in the post war years but I'm not completely certain.


I wanted to add this link to a control valve switch. It was discontinued by Mac's but these were also used on certain GM cars in the late 40s & early 50s. It appears to be a control valve switch that controls fluid and the power pack at the same time. It looks to be relatively simple and is the same as the one in the Lincoln Mercury diagram.
s://www.macsautoparts.com/store/convertible-top-control-valve-mounts-on-firewall-bakelite-body-mercury.html

Here's another one. https://www.chevsofthe40s.com/detail..._Solenoid.html

[fortyonerag]

This looks very similar, many thanks indeed. Mighty helpful RW, you are a gem.

There are some options on this car I'm not familiar with: Vac operated two speed diff (Columbia I guess) and some kind of clutch operated radiator fan to mention a few.

Because of this there are a few components under the dash I'm not familiar with. I now know they are not part of the top system.

Thanks again.

[rotorwrench]

They had a vacuum shift set up on the Columbia OD so that may be part of what you are finding below the dash. That is a good set up to have. There is a guy here in the US that specializes in the Columbia ODs. He has parts and can bullet proof the carriers if needed. Part of the stuff below the dash operates it and it has a connection to the clutch as well.

It looks like that power top pump motor solenoid may be a power type instead of a ground type that is used on the starter circuit. There should still be some of those being reproduced if you need one. It gets power from the rotary control unit to the small terminal on the solenoid with an internal ground. The rotary control valve/switch has an up position, a neutral position, and a down position with the components below the dash as well.

[fortyonerag]

I need to preface this by saying I'd prefer to figure as much out as I can before I have to stick my head under the dash again. My old bones and less than olympian physique thank you sincerely.

There is a small can shaped electrical component under the dash near the actuator which I'm now thinking is possibly the circuit breaker mentioned in Fig132. It is shaped like a small flasher can with two electrical connections on it. It's not a flasher as the car does not have signals fitted - yet.

I have assumed that the solenoid is actuated by applying power (-6V) to the small electrical stud on the outside of the solenoid.

Am I wrong? Is it actuated by earthing?

[bitterbierce]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

If you look at just a single catalog on solenoids from a company like Cole Hersee, you will get an idea how many different types are available and what voltages they work at. A 6-volt will work on 12-volt but not in a continuous duty cycle or it may burn a wire over time. Working a 12-volt solenoid or relay on 6-volt is not an ideal solution. Some may work and some not. http://colehersee.com.au/switches/solenoids/


They don't have any 6-volt types there in that link but you can see all the different design types. Some have fine windings for continuous duty and some have heavy windings for intermittent rapid duty. There are different working voltage rating for the main contact terminals as well. There are still a few that make solenoids for 6-volt service but no where near what there used to be.

That's what I was meaning to say. Power, as a rule of thumb, is Volts x Amps. Yo have to have the right match for continuous use.

[rotorwrench]

The starter solenoid is actuated by earthing at the dash button since it has an internal connection to the battery power. The power top set up has a hot wire from that circuit breaker (the small rectangular can with two terminals) that connects to the switch/valve then it in turn connects to the solenoid. The photos I posted are sort of small due to downsizing and you can't see the internal grounding of the solenoid cut away in the diagram.


Ford used the shortstop type circuit breakers for all of their higher amperage circuits back in the day. These are still available due to the usage in semi tractor trailer wiring for many years. All are rated for the lower voltages but most are stated to be for 12-volt systems. What they don't tell you is that they will also work for 6-volt too. All they care about is the amperage draw through them since they are a bi-metallic strip actuated. If they trip, the type I CBs will reset as soon as they cool down then they will trip repeatedly if the short is still in the circuit. When the short is repaired, it will again function normally unless it is damaged by too much cycling. If 6-volts will come through it then it should still be operational. They last a long time under normal service.


Those solenoids can go bad too but they last an incredible amount of time depending on how much use they get or what type of environment they are subjected to. The hydraulic pump draws a good bit of current so it usually comes direct from the battery with a large cable. I don't know what the gauge is but it could be a 4 or 8 gauge type for that amount of current. That part of the circuit it likely not fused. Only the actuator circuit has the circuit breaker and it could just be a 16 or 14 gauge wire depending on how much amperage the pump motor solenoid draws.


For the Columbia overdrive stuff, check this site out.
http://www.columbiatwospeedparts.com/