Need Help with 1934 Ford Engine - Rebuild or Buy another?

[johnthetruck]

Hello,

I am in the process of rebuilding my 1934 Ford Cabriolet and it has the original 21 stud motor. After disassembling the engine, there is a good amount of rust and scaling in the cylinder heads and engine block. Car sat for 35 years in a garage and the fluids were not drained. The sad part is the engine was rebuilt right before it was put into the garage but the restoration never proceeded.

I am not planning on making this a period correct or concourse type restoration. It will most likely be a hi-boy for a while until I can finish all the body work on the fenders.

Question: is there any value to rebuild the original engine or should I replace it with a 59A flathead?
Either way I go, I will not be focusing on making it a race engine or getting the most horsepower. I am more concerned with drive-ability and reliability. This is my first experience with this era of hot rods, I am used to 1960's classics where matching numbers to make a big difference.

It will cost me $2k+ to clean and machine the existing motor, plus new valves. Plus there will be all the cost for new parts, like water pumps, electronic dist, alternator conversion, new dual intake and carbs etc etc etc. Easily another $2k in upgraded parts.

To get a completely rebuilt 59A with all parts it would be $5-8k.

I do like the idea of having an original engine, but I feel the reliability of a later 59A is better.

Looking for advice or insight as to which way other people have gone.

Thank you all

[deuce_roadster]

If it is a 34 engine it has Babbitt mains which are difficult to find anyone who can repour and fit them. The later engine is probably better for you. Sell the original to someone who wants to restore one. By the way, there is no important number on the engine, Ford put the VIN on the transmission.

[Bulligen]

If it were me I would put a 59A in it but save the 21 stud and take my time rebuilding it to stock at your leasure and as the money becomes available. That way you have preserved the original engine that goes with the car for the future.

[Bored&Stroked]

Unless you're really into the early 21 stud engines, you'll find it a lot easier, less expensive and faster to go the 59AB route. That is exactly why so many of these early cars had their 21 stud engines pulled - and 59ABs or 8BAs put in their place. Folks figured out where to best spend their money - even 60 years ago.

[DavidG]

If one follows the above recommendations to their logical conclusions, a Ford Eco-boost 2.0 four would be your best bet. Lots more torque and horsepower than you'll ever get out of a flathead, hugely superior fuel economy, and likely twice the useful life. Go down to your friendly Ford dealer and take a test drive in a Focus RS to get the picture.

I don't think that folks stopped figuring out where to best spend their money in 1948.

[Brad]

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Go with a 59a I had a 21 stud in my 36 many years ago expensive to rebuild the 59 is a drop in and can be found at a reasonable price

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by DavidG

If one follows the above recommendations to their logical conclusions, a Ford Eco-boost 2.0 four would be your best bet. Lots more torque and horsepower than you'll ever get out of a flathead, hugely superior fuel economy, and likely twice the useful life. Go down to your friendly Ford dealer and take a test drive in a Focus RS to get the picture.

I don't think that folks stopped figuring out where to best spend their money in 1948.

David, like your logic!

[40 Deluxe]

Like my Dad told me when (years ago) I said he should put a 289 in his '40: "Then it wouldn't be a '40 Ford anymore!" It now has a 59A in it, but still has all the flavor and characteristics of a '40, as it should! Same with your '34. Put in a 59A or 8BA and save the original for the next caretaker of the car.

[Brian]

"This is my first experience with this era, but I feel the reliability of a later 59A is better."

So...although you have limited knowledge of these things, somehow you feel a later engine is more reliable? How so?

electronic dist, alternator conversion, new dual intake and carbs etc etc etc. Easily another $2k in upgraded parts'

Those are upgrades?!!

David G's opinion is spot on!!

There is an apparent 'knowledge' on this forum that 59A/8BA engines are the way to go. How many of these knowledgeable people have even ever driven a 21 stud? What makes a 21 stud engine 'less reliable'?
In my opinion, those 21 stud engines are the finest that Henry built!

Rebuild it properly; put a late fuel injected OHV in it!! Another car wasted.............

[DavidG]

Evidently the barn is not the place to attempt tongue-in-cheek humor.

All of my old cars have the same year engine as the rest of the car so nearly all have bored main bearings and several have poured rod bearings. No doubt the availability of that type of bearing work varies greatly by locale, but it's still available out there in many areas. The cost advantage of insert main bearings is real, but vastly overstated on this site.

[Ken/Alabama]

Don't know where you're located but Harold "Putt" Smith in the Atlanta area can repour the main bearings in your block .

[Karl]

Originally Posted by Brian

"This is my first experience with this era, but I feel the reliability of a later 59A is better."

So...although you have limited knowledge of these things, somehow you feel a later engine is more reliable? How so?

electronic dist, alternator conversion, new dual intake and carbs etc etc etc. Easily another $2k in upgraded parts'

Those are upgrades?!!

David G's opinion is spot on!!

There is an apparent 'knowledge' on this forum that 59A/8BA engines are the way to go. How many of these knowledgeable people have even ever driven a 21 stud? What makes a 21 stud engine 'less reliable'?
In my opinion, those 21 stud engines are the finest that Henry built!

Rebuild it properly; put a late fuel injected OHV in it!! Another car wasted.............

Brian we are on exactly the same page! They are only original once. IMHO if you want an old car have an old car. Make sure it is well maintained and set up and accept any limitations that remain as part of the character of the car. In fact its my experience most upgrades actually cause more problems than they solve and generally decrease value .

[Brian]

Not quite Karl, I'm a hotrodder at heart, and must be having a bad day judging by my posts on this thread. lol. But it gets my goat, that the little 221 is so maligned by all the experts on here, 90% or more of whom I am sure have never even driven one!
The original poster seems to think he can get such a great 59A engine for 5-8 grand. If he put half of that amount into his 221, he'd have a superb engine, that in a 34 cab would perform exceptionally well, and even be capable of 'eating' a few 59A/8BA's. I speak from experience.
Plus, those water pumps in the heads just make those engines so pretty.

[bluardun]

Johnthetruck.
I suggest you contact the folks at H&H Flatheads. They have an ad on the front page of this site. World of information to help you with your decision.
Great hobby....enjoy

[JSeery]

I have no experience with babbitt bearings! (well, some, but might as well be none). This engine is stated to be a new rebuild that was allowed to set for 35 years, so what are the odds that the babbitt bearings are still in good shape and usable? Is part of the issue limiting the block cleaning methods with the bearing material in place or is there concern of the bearing surface itself being damaged/unsuable?

[deuce_roadster]

Since the owner isn't building a high point Concourse correct Dearborn award car he can save money and time with a 24 stud engine as he wants to use aftermarket speed equipment. There is nothing to prevent re installing the original engine if he changes his mind down the road.

[Kahuna]

I agree with J.
Wouldn't it be wise to a least check the engine's bearings, etc. before making a decision?
If the babbit bearings are in good shape, the block could be cleaned and a good engine runs again for very limited expense.
I'm also in the camp with the early engines being as good as the later ones, and they do look great with the water pumps in the heads.

I actually know of at least one set of Aluminum, 24 stud heads, with the water pump mounts in the heads. I've been trying to get a hold of them for the past 9 years. They look exactly like the early (33-36) heads, except bolt to the later block.

[Bored&Stroked]

Whew - folks got a bit flustered about 21 studs versus 24 . . . thank God he didn't want to put a SBC in it! LOL I happen to like all flatheads and vintage engines - but he asked a question and folks gave him their honest answer - doesn't make anybody wrong in their reply.

Before I continue, I love flathead engines in general - especially Ford V8s (though it seems I invested a few years of my life in our Flathead Cadillac for Bonneville - go figure). Though I tend to build high-end race-type motors, I am also into early 21 stud flatheads - mostly 32 stuff (though I'm looking for a 36 LB as well).

There will be as many opinions on which is the "best" flathead as you know whats - especially by those of us who have built a lot of them and spent decades of our lives with them (in every configuration imaginable). We each have things we like and don't like. If one doesn't care about originality (and there are times that I don't), then it may come down to what engines do you have available to you, how much do they cost, how easy are they to work on, who can do the machine work, how far away are they, etc.. Your criteria, expectations and situation comes to bare - the answer is NOT the same for each of us . . . or even the same for different projects or points in time.

For a newbie who doesn't care about originality, then the easiest flathead to build and the one with the "best" overall parts - is the last generation 49-53. Makes sense that Ford made constant improvements over 21 years now doesn't it. Many of us on this site could list all the reasons why - and it is a fairly long list.

The hardest, most expensive and biggest pain in the rear to build (with all the correct parts) will undoubtedly be a 1932 flathead . . . for exactly the opposite reasons stated above . . . it was Henry's first year for a new power plant.

Now if one has all the parts already (sounds like he does), they are all good cores and one has machine shops that are experienced with 21 stud engines (and they do quality babbit work and have the early flathead molds) - then it isn't that big of a deal. And you'll end up with a sweet 85 HP engine that runs like a watch and you can barely even hear it running.

Parts availability and interchangeability on the earlier 21 stud V8 engines in definitely tougher and more year on year specific. The good news, is it sounds like he has all the 34 parts - the engine just needs to be rebuilt. I'd never throw that engine away - I'd either take the plunge and rebuild it, or save it for later on (for the car and future generations).

As a first time builder of a flathead, he just needs to decide whether or not he is going "turn key" - having somebody just build him one . . . whether he is capable, confident and has the skills/knowledge/support to do a lot of the work himself, etc.. My guess is that most of us would tell him that for a newbie who wants to do a lot of the work, they'll find a later engine to be easier (parts, vendor options and availability) and less expensive in the end - they just are.

But if you're just writing a check and shipping stuff around the USA . . . (and your checkbook is large enough), then he has all the options in the world.

I'm just damn glad he wants to run a flathead . . . my bottom line.

B&S

[Bored&Stroked]

Here is the best part (and what I love about the HAMB) - this guy has exactly 1 post. And look at all the experience and information he was able to extract from us . . . gotta love it!

[Kahuna]

And, had he listed his general location, even more options might be available to him