Has Anyone Installed Cartouche Seat Covers?

[CWPASADENA]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Not to pick on Chris' picture above but myguess is there is at least one thing that he would probably do different next time if he could do it again. It appears he did not tie the cushion springs (or if he did, he didn't do them enough) as it appears the seat will not fold forward properly to allow passenger egress to the back seat. Also, compare to the photo below that shows the proper location for the piping. Again, these are minor installation details and he did a remarkable job but my point is that he would probably do many things differently if he had done several jobs and had that experience to fall back on. THAT is what you are paying for when you have it done professionally. While some of y'all may not view it that way, paying $2,500 (even on a $10,000 car) is not that expensive when you realize what is involved.

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You are correct,I did not tie the springs. I followed L-Bs Instructions but there was nothing about tying the springs which there should be. I may take the bottom cushions apart at some time and do a little re-work as they look a little too "full" for me, BUT the Passanger Seat does fold properly. I am a Mechanical Engineer by profession and a Mechanist by trade and not a trimmer.

If I was going to restore this car as a high point show car, I would have a professional do some of the work I did but I restored it as a Tour Car and tried to do most of it myself. I know the piping is incorrect BUT this is the way I wanted to do it. I also used clevis pins with hair pin clips in the bottom pivots which makes the seats very easy to remove when necessary. This makes it MUCH easier when removing the front floor boards for maintenance. Again, if I was doing a show car, all these things would need to be correct.

Chris

[sonny30coupe]

Why is Brent always so negative and hard on everyone elses work? I guess he is the only one that does nice work.???

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by CWPASADENA

You are correct,I did not tie the springs. I followed L-Bs Instructions but there was nothing about tying the springs which there should be. I may take the bottom cushions apart at some time and do a little re-work as they look a little too "full" for me, BUT the Passanger Seat does fold properly. I am a Mechanical Engineer by profession and a Mechanist by trade and not a trimmer.

First, I have to say your work looks better than most "professional" jobs I've seen. A very nice job!

What is this about tying springs? There is NOTHING to be gained by tying a Model A seat spring unless you are trying to collapse it so much it feels like sitting on a brick. By design they are intended to be collapsed approximately 1" with the installation of the cover.

Am I missing something?

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by sonny30coupe

Why is Brent always so negative and hard on everyone elses work? I guess he is the only one that does nice work.???

I think you confuse negativity with honesty. Brent only comments about the things he sees done incorrectly when necessary or asked. Like the judges on the TV shows, sometimes the advice is not appreciated or welcomed even if it is true and honest, posters put themselves in this position when they ask questions, me included. Don't shoot the messenger when you ask.

[rmak]

Originally Posted by sonny30coupe

Why is Brent always so negative and hard on everyone elses work? I guess he is the only one that does nice work.???

Ha, ha! Sorry for opening a can of worms,guys.

I was obsessive/compulsive when I was restoring old Brit motorcycles. I would get involved in long debates about where to put an oil level decal and if the bolts that weren't even seen were plated correctly.

It was funny that at a lot of meets the guys who rode their old beat up classic bikes daily and had them wired/taped together and kind of funky usually stole the attention from the pristine restorations. There's just something about a machine that's actually used and shows it service.

I've been around gear-heads of one type or another most of my life. There's room for everyone, every point of view and every aesthetic.

My car is going to be a jalopy. It's a fun diversion from the daily grind, nothing more and nothing less. I don't plan on investing big bucks. My original question was asked in that context. But, hey, if you're into discussing the thread count on a particular fabric, enjoy!

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

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Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

First, I have to say your work looks better than most "professional" jobs I've seen. A very nice job!

What is this about tying springs? There is NOTHING to be gained by tying a Model A seat spring unless you are trying to collapse it so much it feels like sitting on a brick. By design they are intended to be collapsed approximately 1" with the installation of the cover.

Am I missing something?

Well so we are clear, since most of us (you included??) do not have the seat spring press like was originally used at the factory, you or I need to compress the spring coils that 1" like you just mentioned. I personally clip the string once the cover has been installed but I would imagine over time the string will stretch however I have trouble believing whether the coils are tied to compress them 1 inch, --or whether the seat cover is holding the coils compressed that same inch matters as far as the seat sitting like a brick. Maybe your experience is different?
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Originally Posted by sonny30coupe

Why is Brent always so negative and hard on everyone elses work? I guess he is the only one that does nice work.???

I'm sorry you feel that way as that was not, --nor is ever my intent. Matter of fact, if you really knew me personally you would know that I am an encourager to almost everyone I come in contact no matter who they are. While I do feel I am generous with sharing what knowledge and experience I have learned to others here, like someone mentioned above, I will be truthful and can be abrasive with my 'to the point' comments. If that offends, I'm sorry but that is just how I am.

Also, if you go look at my unedited posting above, you will see I used the phrase that "he did a remarkable job". If my point about experience being the reason why the $2500 quote and using Chris' experience gives folks indigestion, I will gladly go and reword my post as I am not trying to offend or belittle anyone. BTW, if you or anyone ever sees something I am doing incorrectly or unsatisfactory, feel free to let me know. I can always learn & improve too.

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[bobpo]

I just finished my LeBaron-Bonney kit installation. I have a '30 deluxe coupe, and the kit came complete with the Leather like rumble seat. I say Leather-Like 'cause I can't spell Naugaugehide. I took me a week or so and it came out great. I also opted for the cloth material instead of the Mohair 'cause I just like the clother better.

Bottom line was about $2,200 and I got free shipping due to one of their many specials at the time. I was very pleased with the directions/instructions and their tech support. I did however borrow a better quality pair of Hog Ring Pliers. Theirs was a little less than I wanted to deal with. NOTE* I had never done an upholstery job in my life before.

I went to a family member who owns a great Upholstery Shop and he told me right up front, "if I was you, I'd order that LeBaron-Bonney kit".......

Good Luck

[Pilotdave]

My sense is that there will always be some "tension" between those who work professionally on these cars and those who don't.

Professionals know the value of experience and (often but not always) how to get it right. Those who do deserve to be paid for what they know and can do. And the value of advice from someone like Brent is that he knows what's he's talking about and is willing to share his experience with us - for free.

The rest of us have varying degrees of experience and skill levels. Often we are faced with economic limitations. Some of us can install an interior kit and get it dang close to perfect. Some of us cannot. But going into a project like that with our eyes open and understanding the limitations and challenges is part of the hobby. I've had significant help from my local Model A club, as well as from those who contribute on here, for a variety of issues, repairs and upgrades. For me, working on our car is part of the joy of owning it. That said, an interior kit will cost a good part of the $2,500 mentioned in this thread. And if I didn't expect that I could do creditable job of installing it, I'd find someone who could....and maybe spend the rest of the $2,500 or more.

So is $2,500 a lot of money for a professionally installed, correct interior? Doesn't sound like it! If I pay a shop do it, will it be correct? Maybe - depends on the shop. Can I do it myself and get it right? Maybe. Can I get it close enough for a driver car? Probably, especially if I'm willing to back up and restart a few things. And even more likely if someone from the local Club has experience that I can "borrow". If I do it myself, will I spend more time than a pro? Absolutely! Will I learn from doing it and be better at it next time? I surely hope so!

[CWPASADENA]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I'm sorry you feel that way as that was not, --nor is ever my intent. Matter of fact, if you really knew me personally you would know that I am an encourager to almost everyone I come in contact no matter who they are. While I do feel I am generous with sharing what knowledge and experience I have learned to others here, like someone mentioned above, I will be truthful and can be abrasive with my 'to the point' comments. If that offends, I'm sorry but that is just how I am.

Also, if you go look at my unedited posting above, you will see I used the phrase that "he did a remarkable job". If my point about experience being the reason why the $2500 quote and using Chris' experience gives folks indigestion, I will gladly go and reword my post as I am not trying to offend or belittle anyone. BTW, if you or anyone ever sees something I am doing incorrectly or unsatisfactory, feel free to let me know. I can always learn & improve too.

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In defense of Brent, he is "In the Business" and while I have done ONE interior in a Model A Ford, I am sure he has done many dozens and has thru the years, learned the in's and out's of restoring these cars. A person with his experience, who is willing to freely share his experience with others, can be very helpful to all of us who are attempting to do a lot of our own work. This helps to better our skills and understanding and makes it easier to raise the level of quality of our finished work. I am sure the next interior job I would do on a Model A Tudor will be better and done in half the time, but it still may not be up to the quality of a professional.

I have seen many times on The Barn where Brent offers very helpful advice and answers to questions people have who are just trying to work on their own cars and enjoy them.

I have been associated with the Car Hobby all my life and I have seen many cases where an "expert" will just critize and will not offer any helpful advice. I am 73 YEARS OLD but am still willing to learn and try to improve my skills. I am also fortunate to have a good, well equipped shop to work in and have reasonable basic skills but I am also hard headed enough to try to do things which are new to me. Sometimes things turn out OK but every so often, I have to "can" the project and either start over or take it to someone who knows what they are doing.

Anyway, I take Bernt's comments as constructive and will look forward to his helpful answers to questions posted on The Barn.

Chris

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by Pilotdave

...if someone from the local Club has experience that I can "borrow"...

I am always humbled each time I recall having worked on my car for an entire Saturday with a fellow club member -- him doing most of the work, I was just learning (again). At the end of the day:
He thanked me for allowing him to work on my car!

[WILLIE]

Originally Posted by sonny30coupe

Why is Brent always so negative and hard on everyone elses work? I guess he is the only one that does nice work.???

WE HAVE TO REMEMBER, THESE COMPUTERS HAVE NO PERSONALITY. IT IS EASY TO MISUNDERSTAND WHAT SOMEONE IS REALLY TRYING TO SAY. MYSELF, I WELCOME CONSTUCTIVE CRITICISM. I LEARN ALOT FROM THOSE "GRUMPY OLD FARTS"... I THINK BRENT MENTIONED HOW GOOD THE UPHOLSTERY LOOKED. HIS POINT WAS, NO MATTER HOW GOOD ONE DOES A PROJECT THE FIRST TIME, THEY LEARN MORE EACH OTHER TIME THEY DO IT. AND A PRO HAS DONE IT MANY TIMES, SO HAS MORE KNOWLEDGE, AND EXPERINCE. THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE PAYING FOR. I'M SURE EVERYONE AGREES THAT BUYING A KIT AND DOING IT YOURSELF IS FINE AND ADMIRABLE. BUT A HIGH QUALITY PROFESSIONAL LOOKING JOB COST. IT JUST DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU WANT. ME, I TAKE PRIDE IN DOING IT ALL MYSELF. EVEN WHEN IT DOESN'T TURN OUT GREAT, I'M STILL HAPPY KNOWING I DID IT... TO ME THAT'S THE FUN. LEARNING HOW IT WAS DONE, AND BRINGING IT BACK TO LIFE WITH MY OWN TWO HANDS. SOME OTHERS LIKE TO BUY IT ALREADY FINISHED, AND READY TO GO. THAT'S FINE TOO... IT TAKES ALL KINDS...

[asapguy]

Hello RMAK. I installed a L-B kit in my 29 rdstr. four yrs ago. It wasn't hard. I actually enjoyed it. I requested padded door panels with pouches for storage which aren't original for rdstrs. Other then the door panels everything else was orig. type upholstery. I took 30-40 pics & would be more then happy to send some if you decide to do it yourself. I haven't done my top bows yet but did help a friend do his. Just been to busy to get my bows ready to install. I'm getting ready to do a 29 Briggs fordor interior & that's going to more of a challange. I would stick with L-B.

[WILLIE]

Hey asapguy... I am restoring a '29 briggs myself. I was thinking of going with cartouche for the upholstery. But also considered labaron bonney please let me know how it turns out.

[LukeDahlinger]

Broke out my upholstery scissors and trimmed this post down to nothing.....

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Well so we are clear, since most of us (you included??) do not have the seat spring press like was originally used at the factory, you or I need to compress the spring coils that 1" like you just mentioned. I personally clip the string once the cover has been installed but I would imagine over time the string will stretch however I have trouble believing whether the coils are tied to compress them 1 inch, --or whether the seat cover is holding the coils compressed that same inch matters as far as the seat sitting like a brick. Maybe your experience is different?

.

Ok, now I get it. It didn't occur to me because I've never done that. Thinking about it I seem to recall attempting that the first time I did a factory type fixed size cover (no extra fabric to pull). That was over thirty years ago. I've done better just using my own weight to collapse the area of the cushion I'm focused on.





I've only varied from that twice. When I did my Roadster seats in 1995 I made a temporary press of sorts to collapse the cushions. For some reason when I did Dave's car a few years later (no press) I could not collapse the rear cushion (shown above) enough to crimp the finished edge in the channel so I had to go to "plan B". I had my buddy Larry Ryder AND Susan stand on the spring. As you can imagine, Susan made little difference but it was enough!

In my experience there is no difficulty stretching an LB cover into place with all the extra fabric on the facings. I'd guess it takes 5-10 minutes depending on the model to get the cover on in the proper position and tension. It may however take well over an hour to get the seam or welt in a nice straight line and symmetrical.

Unfortunately there is no way to do a demonstration here and I really don't have a "subject" as I rarely do this stuff anymore. What I used to do was commonly practiced for many decades. I forget that with modern cars there may not be many folks even in the business that have ever seen what to me is just normal.

[Mitch//pa]

i put a cartouche mohair kit in my 30 tudor about 5 years ago. it went in nice with no problems and looks great. my car is more of a tow queen and only gets driven occassionally on a nice sat or sunday. the drivers seat has developed wear marks from sitting and the drivers door panel where my knee rests against has also developed wear marks and discoloration of the material. i agree with some of the above posts that it is cheap material. the price was right at the time but next time i would never buy there kits again. l-b for me

[CWPASADENA]

Originally Posted by Pilotdave

My sense is that there will always be some "tension" between those who work professionally on these cars and those who don't.

Professionals know the value of experience and (often but not always) how to get it right. Those who do deserve to be paid for what they know and can do. And the value of advice from someone like Brent is that he knows what's he's talking about and is willing to share his experience with us - for free.

The rest of us have varying degrees of experience and skill levels. Often we are faced with economic limitations. Some of us can install an interior kit and get it dang close to perfect. Some of us cannot. But going into a project like that with our eyes open and understanding the limitations and challenges is part of the hobby. I've had significant help from my local Model A club, as well as from those who contribute on here, for a variety of issues, repairs and upgrades. For me, working on our car is part of the joy of owning it. That said, an interior kit will cost a good part of the $2,500 mentioned in this thread. And if I didn't expect that I could do creditable job of installing it, I'd find someone who could....and maybe spend the rest of the $2,500 or more.

So is $2,500 a lot of money for a professionally installed, correct interior? Doesn't sound like it! If I pay a shop do it, will it be correct? Maybe - depends on the shop. Can I do it myself and get it right? Maybe. Can I get it close enough for a driver car? Probably, especially if I'm willing to back up and restart a few things. And even more likely if someone from the local Club has experience that I can "borrow". If I do it myself, will I spend more time than a pro? Absolutely! Will I learn from doing it and be better at it next time? I surely hope so!

VERY WELL SAID!!!!!

Chris

[ttoldcarbuff7]

I purchased all of my interior and roof top from Cartouche and have been very happy with it. I found that the panels fit well, not perfectly, but well enough to work with little modifications. I cannot compare the weight of the material but it seems fine. Jim at MAC"S upholstery department is very pleasant to work with and has helped me several times with questions and fitting concerns. "Send it back and we will ship out the changes" I am happy with the service at MAC's and would recommend Cartouche to anyone.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by LukeDahlinger

To backtrack a bit-

When it comes to 'professional' restorers you have a couple types:

1) Those who use every post they make to have some sort of reference to their business & clientele. This is done for many reasons which I won't go into.

2) Those who have shops and fly under the radar, having no need to pontificate on their abilities unless specifically asked.

When the #1's post like they do it comes across as highly arrogant and self serving.

As for Cartouche seat covers-

I don't care much for Cartouche products. Lebaron Bonney, Classtique and Chatterton are my preferences.

However I did install a Cartouche kit in a non Model A some time back and found it pretty good. But then again it's hard to screw up vinyl!

Luke, just so we understand exactly what you are saying/implying, which one of your two categories are you placing me in, --and why?

.

[Deluxe Delivery]

A far as upholstery kits/companies are concerned ( remember the original post in this thread?), I can only say good things about LeBaron Bonney. They do not offer a kit as such for 31 Deluxe Deliveries, but they will work with you to assemble one from truck and tudor components. They made door panels as in the pick-up, seat covers in the correct material to their tudor patterns, only with no pleats. I sent them patterns for above the windshield and above the fronts doors. They shipped these out with no binding and when I called, they said send 'em back. I did and they bound them as original. I sent a pattern for the rear door which they happened to "flip" right to left and it had to be remade. They did so very quickly an no expense to me. ( I was able to use this panel to make my kick panels, but that's a fortunate freebie at their expense.) They sent a paper strip to measure the headliner to order for my bow configuration. All of these components fit perfectly and has been one of the most rewarding experiences in this whole restoration. It took lots of time, very well spent, I might add, but I could not be more pleased if Henry himself had done it himself. ( well, maybe). My point is that, yes it was a little pricey, (I sold parts to make it a zero expense ), but I am extremely pleased with my purchase now and will be , I am sure, in the future. I vaguely remember a quote about how the sweetness of a low price is quickly surpassed by the bitter taste of cheap quality/workmanship. I am convinced of the quality and concern that LB shows for it's product, reputation and it's customers. I will post pictures in my album.