Continuing engine problem

[700rpm]

TODAY'S UPDATE: I took the block and pistons into Portland Engine Rebuilders today and told them they needed to hone to .0045. I explained that it all seems to have come down to the issue of the sleeves not transferring heat like a simple bore of the block, combined with the already questionable water distribution in the block. They posited the idea that the overheating may never be solved because of the sleeves. I've sleeved one other engine back to standard, and the builder claims he set the piston clearance at .003. That engine has never locked up, broke in like normal, and runs great.

At this point I am out of options. I'm going with the .0045, new rings, clean block, and new radiator, and if that doesn't solve this, I'm done.

ORIGINAL POST: I posted this over on the VFF, but some guys here don't read that forum, so I put this to the Barn:

This engine, with only 4000 miles on it since rebuild, has always overheated and locked up when shut down after overheating, which is usually when driven at 45 or less for 30 minutes or more. (This did not and does not happen when driven under 35 and/or just around town for less than 45 minutes). I thought I had this problem fixed. But apparently not.

Here is the history: On 3/16/14 I installed an engine which had been boiled out, sleeved back to standard, new pistons and rings from Snyder's, new valves, exhaust valve seats, new lifters, and new babbit by Bill Barlow. It was tight, but I figured it would loosen up during breakin, which I did very carefully, as I have done with all my previous engines.

After 2000 miles it was still overheating and locking up on shutdown. I took it apart to check measurements. Ring gap, rod bearings, and piston clearance were just where they should be, according tbirdtbird, Bill Barlow, Tom Godish, and several other commenters on the Barn. But when reassembled it had the same troubles.

At 3500 miles I went through the disassembly again and rechecked the clearances, just to make sure I had done it right before. I had (so I thought). So I put it back together, timed it to a gnat's eyebrow, thinking that might be the issue, drove it with the spark rod exactly where everyone agrees it should be in a stock engine. It still overheated and locked up.

Today I took it apart again, and again checked my piston clearances. I checked with my engine guru, Tom Gosish. He informed me I had been checking the piston clearance incorrectly. I had done it front and back. I was getting .004 that way. But side to side, the correct way, today I got .012 on all four pistons, except the driver's side #4, which was .016. These all seem excessive, so I don't see how too tight a fit resulting in expansion could be the situation causing the lockup.

Other notes: all spark plugs (Champion 3X) have perfect tan coloring.
There is very slight partial accumulation of carbon on the tops of 2 & 3.
This engine has always had a knock on deceleration, but after this last overheating, it is present in both acceleration and deceleration, but not a cruise speed. It's not like a rod knock; more like a loose wrist pin.
The cylinder walls show no signs of scoring or damage from the pistons. They are clean and shiny, though the crosshatching is gone.
It is not burning oil; the rings seem to have seated properly, though there is some minor blowby when under heavy load, like going up a steep hill.
There were no metal flakes or pieces or other metal indications present in the oil when drained.
I noticed today, which I hadn't noticed before, that I have a '28 head with no center hole in the middle between 2 & 3 for water circulation. This might affect the overheating issue, but to the point of causing it to lock up when shut off seems unlikely.

Tomorrow I am pulling the pistons and having the rods checked for trueness and balance. That is the only thing I have not done, even from the beginning, because Bill Barlow provided those rods and assures me they were trued and balanced, and he is a reputable engine rebuilder.

So, if anything occurs to any of you much more experienced engine guys that might be the cause of this, I am ready to try anything. I have run out of my shade tree ideas. I flat don't know what else to do, and neither do any of my local engine guys.

Thanks for indulging my long post.

[JDupuis]

Sorry to hear about your bad luck.
Have you tried a different radiator? Jeff

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by JDupuis

Sorry to hear about your bad luck.
Have you tried a different radiator? Jeff

I am thinking seriously about that. The radiator was supposedly rodded out at rebuild, but there may be other issues there.

[JDupuis]

I had a great looking radiator boiled out twice this year. It is running much cooler after the second cleaning. But I had a good spare engine that received some severe overheating as a result of this rad after its first cleaning. The spare engine now needs freshing up as a result. The original engine is now back in this car using the same rad. Running much cooler.
Jeff

[Dick Steinkamp]

A few other ideas..

Mains to tight
Not enough (or no) crank end play
Valve timing off (not likely if it has been running well before over heating)
Brakes (or other part of the drive train) dragging

[joel rapose]

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When you say you checked the pistons....did you check the ring end gap ? You should have roughly .016" end gap...

[d.j. moordigian]

Originally Posted by 700rpm

I posted this over on the VFF, but some guys here don't read that forum, so I put this to the Barn:

This engine, with only 4000 miles on it since rebuild, has always overheated and locked up when shut down after overheating, which is usually when driven at 45 or less for 30 minutes or more. (This did not and does not happen when driven under 35 and/or just around town for less than 45 minutes). I thought I had this problem fixed. But apparently not.

Here is the history: On 3/16/14 I installed an engine which had been boiled out, sleeved back to standard, new pistons and rings from Snyder's, new valves, exhaust valve seats, new lifters, and new babbit by Bill Barlow. It was tight, but I figured it would loosen up during breakin, which I did very carefully, as I have done with all my previous engines.

After 2000 miles it was still overheating and locking up on shutdown. I took it apart to check measurements. Ring gap, rod bearings, and piston clearance were just where they should be, according tbirdtbird, Bill Barlow, Tom Godish, and several other commenters on the Barn. But when reassembled it had the same troubles.

At 3500 miles I went through the disassembly again and rechecked the clearances, just to make sure I had done it right before. I had (so I thought). So I put it back together, timed it to a gnat's eyebrow, thinking that might be the issue, drove it with the spark rod exactly where everyone agrees it should be in a stock engine. It still overheated and locked up.

Today I took it apart again, and again checked my piston clearances. I checked with my engine guru, Tom Gosish. He informed me I had been checking the piston clearance incorrectly. I had done it front and back. I was getting .004 that way. But side to side, the correct way, today I got .012 on all four pistons, except the driver's side #4, which was .016. These all seem excessive, so I don't see how too tight a fit resulting in expansion could be the situation causing the lockup.

Other notes: all spark plugs (Champion 3X) have perfect tan coloring.
There is very slight partial accumulation of carbon on the tops of 2 & 3.
This engine has always had a knock on deceleration, but after this last overheating, it is present in both acceleration and deceleration, but not a cruise speed. It's not like a rod knock; more like a loose wrist pin.
The cylinder walls show no signs of scoring or damage from the pistons. They are clean and shiny, though the crosshatching is gone.
It is not burning oil; the rings seem to have seated properly, though there is some minor blowby when under heavy load, like going up a steep hill.
There were no metal flakes or pieces or other metal indications present in the oil when drained.
I noticed today, which I hadn't noticed before, that I have a '28 head with no center hole in the middle between 2 & 3 for water circulation. This might affect the overheating issue, but to the point of causing it to lock up when shut off seems unlikely.

Tomorrow I am pulling the pistons and having the rods checked for trueness and balance. That is the only thing I have not done, even from the beginning, because Bill Barlow provided those rods and assures me they were trued and balanced, and he is a reputable engine rebuilder.

So, if anything occurs to any of you much more experienced engine guys that might be the cause of this, I am ready to try anything. I have run out of my shade tree ideas. I flat don't know what else to do, and neither do any of my local engine guys.

Thanks for indulging my long post.

Ray,

You have photos of the pistons and the bore?
Were are you measuring the piston AND the bore?
No crosshatch with 4,000 miles on it?....VERY ODD!
With what you say about the bore to piston clearance,..it's about 1/2 wore out!
I would also like some photos of the "inside" of the top of the pistons, please.

Dudley

[48fordnut]

When you say locked up is that with the battery turning it over ,or by hand?
4k miles and no cross hatch, somethings too tight.

[H. L. Chauvin]

About 60 years ago, in our rural area, I remember many vehicle owners "successfully" performing their own engine rebuilds.

After continuing to read Model A Forum messages about all of the bum Model A engine rebuilds which are forever failing over the past 20 years, I think we are experiencing an era where we have only a very, very, few Model A engine re-builders that actually "know" what they are doing.

Or do we have hundreds of "Scrooge" type Model A owners looking for cheap, cheap, cheap rebuilds from guys who are not even qualified to pump air in bicycle tires?

[WHN]

The engine seizure would be my biggest concern.

You said when you take everything apart, things look good?

How hot is the engine getting? Does it seize as soon as you shut it off?

If it runs great under 35 and does not over heat. The engine might not be the problem.

Could you drive it all day at 35 and not experience any issues. If so, I would think you have a cooling issue.

[48fordnut]

H.L. your last sentence about sums it up. It is the same way in the small acft fild.

[Big hammer]

So one else is having issues with clylinders brought back to standard. Look for his thread !
When he pulled the pistons they looked like they where tight to me! If it helps I think the same man rebuild his engine. His clylinder walls cross hatch where gone also! IMHO I think you, the man, and the rebuilder need to look very close at the liners, pistons, rings
That is on another forum ford vintage go and take a look ( engine locks up on shut down ) I thought it was the same engine problem

[2manycars]

H.L. has the answer.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

Ray,

You have photos of the pistons and the bore?
Were are you measuring the piston AND the bore?
No crosshatch with 4,000 miles on it?....VERY ODD!
With what you say about the bore to piston clearance,..it's about 1/2 wore out!
I would also like some photos of the "inside" of the top of the pistons, please.

Dudley

Dudley is right, 4000 miles and no cross hatch? When we have pulled heads for high compression ones at 15 to 20 thousandth miles, all cross was very visible!

If the measuring is correct, .012 to .016 thousandths, wow, should not be over .005 at the very most!

Also I hope all the valves are setting on top of the block, and not just the Exhaust.

With all that said, you Have to have a good radiator to cool, bite the bullet, and get a new one!

Herm.

[Jacksonlll]

Your radiator is plugged. It should flow 36 GPM. I bet your's won't.

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by Jacksonlll

Your radiator is plugged. It should flow 36 GPM. I bet your's won't.

How would I check that?

[RawhideKid]

Hey Ray, what year is your car?

[H. L. Chauvin]

Sad part is with so many devastating engine failures reported on Model A Forums after engine rebuilds for the past 20 years ...... sounds like most Model A owners report almost needing a twenty (20) foot long crow bar pulled by a D-9 dozer just to turn their "tight" engines over.

Ford described in his Model T manual how to adjust Babbitt bearings.

Not at all any different from our ancestors with steam engine Babbitt bearing adjustment going back 90 years back to the 1820's.

Both crankshafts and connecting rods should be felt for easy bearing movement from side to side; however, no felt bearing movement up & down.

If one feels bearing movement up & down, be prepared for hearing knocks.

If no easy bearing movement felt from side to side, Babbitt bearing is too tight.

[d.j. moordigian]

Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting

Dudley is right, 4000 miles and no cross hatch? When we have pulled heads for high compression ones at 15 to 20 thousandth miles, all cross was very visible!

If the measuring is correct, .012 to .016 thousandths, wow, should not be over .005 at the very most!

Also I hope all the valves are setting on top of the block, and not just the Exhaust.

With all that said, you Have to have a good radiator to cool, bite the bullet, and get a new one!

Herm.

Herm,

With that kind of clearance, IF IT'S CORRECT, you should be able to run the
engine with NO WATER,..and not stick it! The water jacket is only about
2.5" to 2.75" deep of a 4.25' stroke. I think it's tight at the bottom,..best
guess without photos and information..

Were are the photos?

[700rpm]

To answer questions and suggestions by post # and name if I know it:

#5 Dick S: All bearings are factory spec. Crank end play was set by Bill Barlow, so no questions there. Timing gears are matched properly, but I will check this again next week when I pull the engine. Brakes are not too tight.

#6 Joel R: Ring gaps are all .020-.022.

#7 Dudley: See pix at the bottom of this post. The measurements I took may well bbe wrong. No crosshatch even at 1800 miles! (that photo below also).

#8 48fordnut: It will not turn over, perion, by hand or starter. It takes 30-45 minutes to cool down enough to turn.

#10 WHN: Things look good. See pix below. I didn't write down the temps when it seized, but it happens as soon as it's shut off.

#11 48fordnut: What is acft fild? Aircraft field?

#12 Big Hammer: If you are referring to the thread on the VFF, that is me.

#14 Herm: No crosshatch at 1800 miles. The valves seem to be on top. See pix below. I am unsure about those measurements. I need to get bore gauge on the cylinder. This morning the pistons measured 3.8720 at the bottom skirt; the sleeved cylinders were honed to 3.875 at rebuild 4000 miles ago. Portland Engine Rebuilders, who sleeved the block and did the honing told me this AM that it was honed for .003 clearance. I am not averse to getting a new radiator. At this point I'm trying to decide if I need to pull the engine and have it honed for greater clearance or replace the radiator. It seems that either or both may be necessary. What do you think?

#17 Rawhide: 1929

#18 Henry: Bearings are set to Ford specs, and the engine turns easily by hand when cold.

[WHN]

I would check you cooling system out before pulling the engine.

Radiator, water pump, etc.

If the engine is as per factory spec's and seizing when it only gets really hot. Sounds to me like you have to keep it cool.

Also, what oil weight have you been using to break motor in?

Another idea, timing along with cooling problems, knocking?

Seizing only when very not, why is engine getting that hot?

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by 700rpm

To answer questions and suggestions by post # and name if I know it:

#5 Dick S: All bearings are factory spec. Crank end play was set by Bill Barlow, so no questions there. Timing gears are matched properly, but I will check this again next week when I pull the engine. Brakes are not too tight.

#6 Joel R: Ring gaps are all .020-.022.

#7 Dudley: See pix at the bottom of this post. The measurements I took may well bbe wrong. No crosshatch even at 1800 miles! (that photo below also).

#8 48fordnut: It will not turn over, perion, by hand or starter. It takes 30-45 minutes to cool down enough to turn.

#10 WHN: Things look good. See pix below. I didn't write down the temps when it seized, but it happens as soon as it's shut off.

#11 48fordnut: What is acft fild? Aircraft field?

#12 Big Hammer: If you are referring to the thread on the VFF, that is me.

#14 Herm: No crosshatch at 1800 miles. The valves seem to be on top. See pix below. I am unsure about those measurements. I need to get bore gauge on the cylinder. This morning the pistons measured 3.8720 at the bottom skirt; the sleeved cylinders were honed to 3.875 at rebuild 4000 miles ago. Portland Engine Rebuilders, who sleeved the block and did the honing told me this AM that it was honed for .003 clearance. I am not averse to getting a new radiator. At this point I'm trying to decide if I need to pull the engine and have it honed for greater clearance or replace the radiator. It seems that either or both may be necessary. What do you think?

#17 Rawhide: 1929

#18 Henry: Bearings are set to Ford specs, and the engine turns easily by hand when cold.

Your pistons are for sure to tight. .003 is not good, should be at least .004-50, not over .005.

We set ring gaps to .013 top, .011 middle, .009 bottom.

It also looks like Aluminum in the rod bearing babbitt, which won't hurt anything.

I never use pistons with out expansion slots!


Herm.

[colin1928]

Ray your on the right track measuring everything until you find that which is too tight
Here are some you have not posted
piston ring side clearance
piston ring back space
valve stem to guide
valve lifter to bore
camshaft journal to bore
and the list goes on but any of these can lock a hot engine

[mcorrell]

Pistols and bores look awful from the seizures. Maybe you could get by with new pistons and honing the bores for proper clearances. I'd check your radiator. Mine has one of the cheap 2 row radiators from the 70s. It will overheat easily when the ambient temp is over 80 degrees, so I usually drive in the mornings until I can install a 3 row radiator.
Engines typically see peak temperatures during a hot shutdown when heat soak occurs. If the piston clearances are too tight seizures occur like you are seeing. Good luck

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk

[48fordnut]

700rpm . My Bad, , aircraft field. acft owners want to fly as cheaply as they did in the 50s,and 60s. When mechs made 1.50 2.00 an hour. You could buy flying planes for 800 to 1000 dollars. Same here.

[bogdonj]

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Went through this issue with my rebuilt roadster engine. Would over heat unless I kept moving and had to watch when it idled. Luckily never ran it too far when it was getting hot. I suspected the Radiator to be fine because it didn't over heat before the engine rebuilt but now with a full rebuilt these engine run much hotter because they are tight. Took the Radiator to a well know old school shop and determined right away it was 60% blocked. Had him re-core it and installed it and no issues of it running hot. Even at idle it will run for days without over heating. Solved my problem! Hopefully you figure yours out soon! Good Luck!

[denniskliesen]

Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting

Your pistons are for sure to tight. .003 is not good, should be at least .004-50, not over .005.

We set ring gaps to .013 top, .011 middle, .009 bottom.

It also looks like Aluminum in the rod bearing babbitt, which won't hurt anything.

I never use pistons with out expansion slots!


Herm.

Herm, a couple things I noticed. All the dimples in your rods. It that from balancing? Do you do your own balancing? Also see you used the neoprene front main seal. Does it hold up longer than the rope seal? Kinda wish I had used that when I had mine apart, but it seems to spit less now after breaking in.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Years ago, and through the end of the 1940's many of us used to hear stories where hundreds of poor, single car, Model A owners used to drive up to a Sears Store, drop off their worn out, oil leaking and oil burning, smoking Model A's, and after a few days hitch a ride back to Sears to pick them up with a very good totally "rebuilt" Model A engine.

This "Model A Maintenance" procedure was supposedly done by Model A owners almost as often as changing their Model A tires ........ and there were almost no "rebuilt" engine complaints afterwards.

Here within the past twenty (20) years of reading Model A Forum stories, and our changing from much needed and typical everyday "Model A Maintenance" ...... to a sideline hobby of "Model A Restoration" ..... we often hear that "rebuilt" Model A engines today often appear to be almost a total disaster.

In trying to assist other future Model A owners needing "rebuilt" Model A engines, anyone care to share their thoughts as to maybe, .......... Why is it like this today? LOL

[d.j. moordigian]

I agree with Herm about the pistons being tight. The pattern on the skirts look real odd,
NOT uniform. There also could be a problem with the "ledge" at the bottom of the bore,
being too sharp!

The ring groove depth may be to shallow which could cause the lack of cross hatch.

Ya,..you have trash in the rod bearings,..hopefully it's Aluminum..

You can run solid skirt piston,..BUT, you need to know how much "cam" is ground in
the pistons,...the more cam, the tighter the clearance. The reverse hold true,..less
cam, then you need MORE clearance..

YOU need to find an "engine builder" that understand all this AND MORE, to correct
your problem,..he needs to check things most have never head of or thought of !

I have $4,000-$5,000( probable more) in tools to measure areas of an engine..and
I've done this for almost 43 years. Herm and I are in the same boat..

One last question,...on the INSIDE of the piston, in the crown(the top) is there any
color (caramel), or is it still Aluminum color?

Dudley

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by denniskliesen

Herm, a couple things I noticed. All the dimples in your rods. It that from balancing? Do you do your own balancing? Also see you used the neoprene front main seal. Does it hold up longer than the rope seal? Kinda wish I had used that when I had mine apart, but it seems to spit less now after breaking in.

Yes, we do our own balancing. We drill, as I don't like grinding around Babbitt.

I don't know if they hold up longer, I haven't had anybody bring either back. But I think the neoprene runs cleaner.

Thanks,

Herm.

[Jacksonlll]

On the flow test, this video shows how I do it. I think I could set it up without removing the rad from the car. Hope to try that soon. If you can find a high flowing water source, it would be much easier, but I tried the output from two garden hoses and that is not near enough water. You need about 36 GPM and that is hard to find. Maybe at a fire house.
Anyway, keep the top tank full while you measure the water rate out of the bottom. The bucket and stop watch work pretty well after you average a couple of runs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0O4...rIa0r_fFQcz4R0
Your final test is being able to run a steady 45MPH for 10 minutes. Most of the cars in our club can't do this. Do this , even on a cool day. Still works.

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

I agree with Herm about the pistons being tight. The pattern on the skirts look real odd,
NOT uniform. There also could be a problem with the "ledge" at the bottom of the bore,
being too sharp!

The ring groove depth may be to shallow which could cause the lack of cross hatch.

Ya,..you have trash in the rod bearings,..hopefully it's Aluminum..

You can run solid skirt piston,..BUT, you need to know how much "cam" is ground in
the pistons,...the more cam, the tighter the clearance. The reverse hold true,..less
cam, then you need MORE clearance..

YOU need to find an "engine builder" that understand all this AND MORE, to correct
your problem,..he needs to check things most have never head of or thought of !

I have $4,000-$5,000( probable more) in tools to measure areas of an engine..and
I've done this for almost 43 years. Herm and I are in the same boat..

One last question,...on the INSIDE of the piston, in the crown(the top) is there any
color (caramel), or is it still Aluminum color?

Dudley

Dudley,

The bottom edge of the sleeves does seem sharp.

How does the ring depth affect the crosshatch?

The rod bearings are good; some of what you're seeing in the pix is just some shop handling debris, since cleaned off. There is no metal debris present, nor was there any in the oil, pan, or dipper tray when I dropped the pan.

I don't understand what you are referring to on the "cam" in regard to pistons.

The shop that did the sleeves and honing is Portland Engine Rebuilders, well respected and reputable. They confirmed yesterday that the cylinders were honed to 3.875 and the pistons fitted to .003. This may be the problem. They measured the pistons yesterday also, and they still read 3.8720.

The inside tops of the pistons are aluminum with no discoloring of any sort.

I have also ordered a new Brassworks radiator. As long as I'm spending money, I might as well spend it all!

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by Jacksonlll

On the flow test, this video shows how I do it. I think I could set it up without removing the rad from the car. Hope to try that soon. If you can find a high flowing water source, it would be much easier, but I tried the output from two garden hoses and that is not near enough water. You need about 36 GPM and that is hard to find. Maybe at a fire house.
Anyway, keep the top tank full while you measure the water rate out of the bottom. The bucket and stop watch work pretty well after you average a couple of runs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0O4...rIa0r_fFQcz4R0
Your final test is being able to run a steady 45MPH for 10 minutes. Most of the cars in our club can't do this. Do this , even on a cool day. Still works.

Jackson, thanks for the info. A commenter on the video mentioned oxalic acid and edtm (whatzat?) and vinegar. Have you had a success with these?

I ordered a new Brassworks radiator today, but I may clean out my existing and keep it as a spare.

[denniskliesen]

Originally Posted by Jacksonlll

Your final test is being able to run a steady 45MPH for 10 minutes. Most of the cars in our club can't do this. Do this , even on a cool day. Still works.

You're kidding, right? Can't run 45mph for 10 minutes? Unbelieveable...

[Jacksonlll]

You can clean out the tubes with chemicals and stuff if there is flow in the tubes. A plugged tube will not be affected by anything in the coolant running by it. You need mechanical cleaning and Very few shops will tackle the job of taking that top tank off.
Good move on the new core.

[d.j. moordigian]

Originally Posted by 700rpm

Dudley,

The bottom edge of the sleeves does seem sharp.

How does the ring depth affect the crosshatch?

The rod bearings are good; some of what you're seeing in the pix is just some shop handling debris, since cleaned off. There is no metal debris present, nor was there any in the oil, pan, or dipper tray when I dropped the pan.

I don't understand what you are referring to on the "cam" in regard to pistons.

The shop that did the sleeves and honing is Portland Engine Rebuilders, well respected and reputable. They confirmed yesterday that the cylinders were honed to 3.875 and the pistons fitted to .003. This may be the problem. They measured the pistons yesterday also, and they still read 3.8720.

The inside tops of the pistons are aluminum with no discoloring of any sort.

I have also ordered a new Brassworks radiator. As long as I'm spending money, I might as well spend it all!

1. Break the edges with some emery cloth,...no sharp edges..

2. Some rings are wider than others (for the depth of the grooves), IF the
ring does not rest below the land when you push it in the land,..it will put
excessive pressure on the cylinder walls,..make sense?

3. "cam in the piston",....Pistons are not round(more like an egg),..smaller
near the pin bosses. When I started out building race engines, the pistons
had very little cam and the clearance was in the .008"-.009" range,..to keep
them from sticking. They started putting MORE cam in the pistons and now
the clearance is in the .0025"- .0035" range. That will seal-up the holes
better and not "barrel face" the rings from the rocking motion on the pistons.

4. Heat and the radiator,..the inside of the pistons,...Best guess,..since there
is no color on the inside of the pistons(that's heat),..your problem could just
be that the pistons were set too tight in the holes,..I'd put more clearance
in the cylinders. BTW,..the "color, caramel" is oil that has stained the inside
of the piston,..when the piston is running at optimum temperature,..I look
for this when I freshen an engine..

Dudley

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

About 60 years ago, in our rural area, I remember many vehicle owners "successfully" performing their own engine rebuilds.

After continuing to read Model A Forum messages about all of the bum Model A engine rebuilds which are forever failing over the past 20 years, I think we are experiencing an era where we have only a very, very, few Model A engine re-builders that actually "know" what they are doing.

Or do we have hundreds of "Scrooge" type Model A owners looking for cheap, cheap, cheap rebuilds from guys who are not even qualified to pump air in bicycle tires?

H.L. is very wise...
I keep reading about newly rebuilt engines that are running badly and often wondered why. One case in particular..Aguy had his v8 rebuilt and it ran perfectly on the engine stand but after installing it in his ear it didn't have enough power to even move the car!
Great rebuild!!

[H. L. Chauvin]

Actual re-built Model A engine experiences from 60 years ago compared to reading Model A Forum Post for the past 20+ years:

Similarly, when we observe fine vintage furniture from 100 years ago built with hand tools, vintage houses and window sashes built 100 years ago with hand tools, and actual hand writings of the last century, one can begin to see a noticeable difference in developed hand and eye coordination, talent, and most importantly, a sense of pride and a standard of care.

Appears today, many are bringing Model A engines to guys with five (5) thumbs who write notes that resemble a ball point pen attached to a chicken's leg while getting its neck wrung.

Just be careful ...... and do not be surprised if you hand him a hand saw and a hand plane and ask him to build a table ...... like your re-built Model A engine ..... it could resemble careless chain saw type rough carpentry.

[FrankWest]

I know nothing about engine rebuilding, but know watchmaking. Any well running watch or clock mechanism, is one that is not tightly bound, but a movement with a little slop so that it will not freeze up and become bound under force. I would imagine that fitting the piston/cylinder walls and piston rings, must be carefully fit so as not to bind up yet provide a proper vacuum for the engine to run..Seems like an almost impossible task..Much much more than just replacing old parts with new ones.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Frank,

Per your #39 mentioned precise watch adjustments, in our rural area, Babbitt bearings were properly adjusted without thickness gauges from the 1820's on steam boats until the 1950's, all without today's so-called hi-tech "Plasti-Gage".

That's about 230 years of adding and removing shims until "no" up & down bearing movement was felt; but easy movement from side to side experienced ..... just one (1) age old method always taught by our local engine re-builders because it always worked.

A constantly flowing oil film is not only required for lubrication, but also for cooling metal to metal frictional movement.

"Too tight" has always caused two (2) types of many past Model A mechanical failures"

"Too tight" to pay for qualified professional engine re-building services is usually the most common one.

[700rpm]

See uppdate at Post #1.

[James Rogers]

On radiators. Sometimes a radiator can perform exactly as new and still overheat. The reason for this is, the tubes are soldered to the fins for heat transfer. On a radiator that is 80/85 years old, this solder joint can be compromised and broken loose. The result is an invisible problem for heat dissipation and overheating. A new radiator should solve this problem since I know of no way to re-solder the fins and tubes.

FWIW.

[Kahuna]

"Too tight" has always caused two (2) types of many past Model A mechanical failures"

"Too tight" to pay for qualified professional engine re-building services is usually the most common one."

This is exactly right, HL
I can't imagine getting an engine from a rebuilder that told me it's going to be real tight, until it's broken in. Rediculous.

[J Franklin]

Didn't the factory set up the bearings somewhat close and then run them in on a jig powered by an electric motor until freed up?

[100IH]

If I may.. there was a post awhile back that eventually centered on pistons, made overseas that many of the vendors were selling. There were many failures. Modern engine re-builders buy parts from manufacturers who specialize in what they do. Most of them have dropped model A pistons because the market quantity isn't there. Now we have products made by shops overseas filling a void that they know very little about. So, who now makes pistons that work well for our old fords? Look closely at the skirts, both inside and out for a company's name. I suspect that there won't be any. This may be the key to your problem, and that does not, in any way imply that you don't also need a radiator.

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

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Ray, in your opening statement, you say it overheats , THEN seizes. It sounds like the problem is overheating. How hot, and then why?

[d.j. moordigian]

Originally Posted by 700rpm

TODAY'S UPDATE: I took the block and pistons into Portland Engine Rebuilders today and told them they needed to hone to .0045. I explained that it all seems to have come down to the issue of the sleeves not transferring heat like a simple bore of the block, combined with the already questionable water distribution in the block. They posited the idea that the overheating may never be solved because of the sleeves. I've sleeved one other engine back to standard, and the builder claims he set the piston clearance at .003. That engine has never locked up, broke in like normal, and runs great.

At this point I am out of options. I'm going with the .0045, new rings, clean block, and new radiator, and if that doesn't solve this, I'm done.

ORIGINAL POST: I posted this over on the VFF, but some guys here don't read that forum, so I put this to the Barn:

This engine, with only 4000 miles on it since rebuild, has always overheated and locked up when shut down after overheating, which is usually when driven at 45 or less for 30 minutes or more. (This did not and does not happen when driven under 35 and/or just around town for less than 45 minutes). I thought I had this problem fixed. But apparently not.

Here is the history: On 3/16/14 I installed an engine which had been boiled out, sleeved back to standard, new pistons and rings from Snyder's, new valves, exhaust valve seats, new lifters, and new babbit by Bill Barlow. It was tight, but I figured it would loosen up during breakin, which I did very carefully, as I have done with all my previous engines.

After 2000 miles it was still overheating and locking up on shutdown. I took it apart to check measurements. Ring gap, rod bearings, and piston clearance were just where they should be, according tbirdtbird, Bill Barlow, Tom Godish, and several other commenters on the Barn. But when reassembled it had the same troubles.



Thanks for indulging my long post.

There are 2 key statements,... "locked up when shut down after overheating"
...........................It didn't lock-up when it got hot!, RUNNING!................
When you shut the engine down the temperature of the engine / water get
HOTTER.
Not unless Ray wrote those 2 statements backwards..?

[700rpm]

Dudley, those two statements are correct. It's part of the mystery. But all will be revealed. Or not.

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by Chuck Sea/Tac

Ray, in your opening statement, you say it overheats , THEN seizes. It sounds like the problem is overheating. How hot, and then why?

Chuck, "why" is the big question. See my OP #1 for details.

[katy]

I've seen this a few times, many years ago. The machine shop gurus said the reason it doesn't seize up when running is because the engine has enough power to overcome the tightness, but once stopped the pistons and the block glom together and then it's almost impossible to turn over until it cools down.

[Wick]

Motor looks dry. Take a look at the Oil pump. Might not be putting out enough flow.

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by Wick

Motor looks dry. Take a look at the Oil pump. Might not be putting out enough flow.

Good idea, Wick.

[denniskliesen]

Originally Posted by Wick

Motor looks dry. Take a look at the Oil pump. Might not be putting out enough flow.

Would a pressure gauge help to determine that?

[Art Newland]

best of luck 700!

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by denniskliesen

Would a pressure gauge help to determine that?

I don't think so. The Model A is not a pressurized system, it's a splash system.

[johnneilson]

Originally Posted by 700rpm

I don't think so. The Model A is not a pressurized system, it's a splash system.

Yes, agreed, splash system, but I thought the pistons looked like lube deficient. Are you sure the splash pan is in the correct position and it does not have any extra holes in it?

What type oil are you running?

John

[denniskliesen]

Originally Posted by 700rpm

I don't think so. The Model A is not a pressurized system, it's a splash system.

I realize that but you should have at least 1 psi going down the road engine completely warmed up.