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Old 03-11-2019, 09:29 AM   #1
trulyvintage
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Question Who Designed And Built The Ford 1904 Model B Car & Engine ?

Other than speculation ....

Does anyone have documented evidence as to who
designed & built the 1904 - 1905 Ford Model B car & engine ?





I assume it was Dodge Brothers who cast the principal parts
for the engine which was assembled at Piquette.

I believe the concept for a copper water jacketed four cylinder engine
was already designed and in use during that time.








The 1904 Model B was the first Ford production vehicle
with a four cylinder engine in front of the firewall.

I believe Ford Motor Company did not manufacture any of the parts
used in the 1904 - 1905 Model B.

Thoughts ?


Jim
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Old 03-11-2019, 11:38 AM   #2
rotorwrench
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Default Re: Who Designed And Built The Ford 1904 Model B Car & Engine ?

It about had to have been the Dodge brothers. They were already manufacturing engines for Ransom Olds. They built just about every part of the early Fords. Malcomson & Gray had to make them share holders after Ford Motor Co. was in debit to them for all the parts they were supplying to Ford for the model A (1904). They wanted Ford to build larger cars so the Model B was the next step that direction.

A lot of the early work was done at the Mack Avenue plant until they grew out of that facility and went on to Picquette Avenue. The Dodge brothers had a lot more employees than Ford did during the first few years.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 03-11-2019 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 03-11-2019, 11:59 AM   #3
trulyvintage
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Question Early Dodge Brothers Records ?

So - taking that approach ....

Anyone know if early records were kept for The Dodge Brothers.

I am looking for documentation.


Jim
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:56 PM   #4
mhsprecher
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Default Re: Who Designed And Built The Ford 1904 Model B Car & Engine ?

The Benson Ford Archives would be the obvious place to look. I did a quick search and they have a few items related to the Model B. The archives also have interviews with many early and long-time Ford employees which are fascinating reading in and of themselves.

Here is a link to a drawing from the Model C. Look in the block on the lower right and you can see it says "Dodge Bros." https://www.thehenryford.org/collect...lide=gs-361857

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Old 03-11-2019, 04:02 PM   #5
trulyvintage
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Lightbulb Limited Funds

Thank You .....

But .....

Funds are limited.

There is no money to pay for hourly research.


Jim

Last edited by trulyvintage; 03-12-2019 at 12:57 AM.
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Old 03-11-2019, 11:27 PM   #6
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Default Re: Who Designed And Built The Ford 1904 Model B Car & Engine ?

You can do it yourself.
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Old 03-12-2019, 07:48 AM   #7
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Default Re: Who Designed And Built The Ford 1904 Model B Car & Engine ?

If you look at the Henry Ford collection of Oral History you can find the first person recollection of Oliver Berthel. Berthel, on page 46 (image # 55 in the collection) states that CH Wills was the designer of the Model B and K, but Berthel actually redesigned all of it, according to him. Berthel's time frame is convoluted, as he mixes up the Model B and Model K (my opinion). The Dodge Brothers likely would have had a say in minor changes to the design in order to make the parts more suitable for manufacture. Typically the parts would have been carved out of wood, then approved by Henry Ford for production. Charles Sorensen would have made patterns for any castings, which essentially was part of the design as well.


http://cdm15889.contentdm.oclc.org/c...id/1781/rec/12
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:26 AM   #8
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Default Re: Who Designed And Built The Ford 1904 Model B Car & Engine ?

There are also some first person recollections from Fred Seeman of the design process used by Ford at that time:


http://cdm15889.contentdm.oclc.org/c.../14930/rec/177
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Old 03-12-2019, 09:54 AM   #9
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Thumbs up Thank You Royce

Thank You Royce.

This appears to be a logical starting point.

For anyone interested in contributing to researching and documenting
the actual objective impartial history of the Ford 1904-1905 Model B ....

This is an opportunity for average folks of moderate means to tell
the story in a manner never thought possible before.

The Ford Model B 52 / B 51 is a true survivor.


Jim
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Old 03-12-2019, 10:33 AM   #10
Royce P
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Default Re: Who Designed And Built The Ford 1904 Model B Car & Engine ?

The way things worked back then, Oliver Berthel or Wills would make a sketch of what was needed. The pattern maker would make a model. Henry Ford would either approve the model or ask for changes. Then another model would be made. Once the design was agreed upon, the model would go to the foundry. Core boxes and molds would have been made by the foundry that early. Reading through the text of these and others, it is apparent that Dodge Brothers was mostly the machine shop, not the place that made castings. Frames came from AO Smith in Milwaukee. The cars were only assembled by Ford, as well as designed by Ford.
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:19 AM   #11
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Default Re: Who Designed And Built The Ford 1904 Model B Car & Engine ?

The Dodge brothers were not that much into design until they started their own automobile manufacturing company around 1913. They built a lot of different assemblies for Ransom Olds prior to becoming share holders at Ford. They dedicated more of their time effort to building parts for Ford since it was then a direct benefit for them both in parts sales and stock dividends. There weren't a lot of companies that highly involved in auto manufacture yet in that time frame. Ford Motors didn't have a foundry until they opened the Highland Park plant in 1910 so they farmed that stuff out. The Dodge brothers likely performed a lot of the manufacture of parts and assemblies after those parts were developed by Ford's team and put into mass production. Ford wasn't well set up for mass production yet. You can see that in the photographs of the different assembly plants they had in those early years. The Mack Avenue plant was small. They started out with 12 employees there. The machine shop as Bellevue Avenue was small as well. The Piquette Avenue plant was still relatively small and was tiny when compared to the Highland Park plant.

The Dodge brothers had their first machine shop at Beaubian Street location starting in 1901 or so. They then opened another shop at Hastings Street and Monroe Avenue. The used both shops for a while before outgrowing them. They built the main plant at Hamtramk around 1910 but it would have been in the Model T time frame.

In those early years neither company owned their own foundry but they both had established foundries to work with. The foundries they used depended on the size, material, and complexity of the parts to be cast. The Dodge Bothers would have needed the Ford patterns to cast parts and those recounts by pattern makers like Fred and Charlie both mention a few snippets about that. Charlie mentioned in his book that they would return some of the reject parts to the Dodge brothers due to issues that rendered them unusable. He also mentioned that when the next batch of new parts would come in, the previously rejected parts would be in with the good ones.

Both Malcomson and the Dodge Brothers wanted Ford to build larger high end cars and they had more pull on the board of directors than Henry did so he didn't have a choice. He could still build the small ones but he had to build cars that he really didn't want to. A lot of Model K cars took a longer time to sell than the budget smaller models so they had to stop production on them after they filled the parking lot with them. After Malcomson sold out to build his own cars, Henry was neck and neck with the other share holders but he still didn't have full ownership until the majority of the others sold out.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 03-13-2019 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 03-13-2019, 12:20 PM   #12
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Default Re: Who Designed And Built The Ford 1904 Model B Car & Engine ?

You might want to look into C Harold Wills as the early Ford designer of the letter cars. An interesting book about his life and work was written by Alan Naldrett. Alan gives and ethusiastic presentation and recalls many of the issues in the early letter cars. Even an aside regarding Mr. Wills value as an engineer to Ford as affirmed by the Dodge Brothers.

I recently completed an engineering design project on a Bar in Detroit, the Bazooki Lounge. It is reportedly the original Dodge Brothers Machine Shop. It is built with 2x12 (full dimensional lumber) standing on edge. No framing, joists and floor deck there! Reportedly there is not a knot in a singe board! Strong as can be!
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Old 03-13-2019, 01:03 PM   #13
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Default Re: Who Designed And Built The Ford 1904 Model B Car & Engine ?

Jon- I believe the correct spelling is Bouzouki lounge. From what I remember, the staff is quite friendly....

I believe what is now Niki's Greek Restaurant (famous for their Greek pizza) was the original Dodge Brothers engine assembly plant.


I did not know that Bouzouki was also an original Dodge facility. It makes sense since the two buildings are almost attached. Neat information.

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Old 03-13-2019, 01:12 PM   #14
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Default Re: Who Designed And Built The Ford 1904 Model B Car & Engine ?

They would have had heavy machines on that floor so I'm not too surprised. The heavy stuff is all set on concrete in more modern machine shops but not as much back then. I've seen old belt drive machine shops that were built on bridge timbers.

The Piquette Avenue plant had assembly on the second floor so you know that they had to be pretty stout buildings. Here is some good photos from the museum in modern day.https://www.tflcar.com/2018/05/ford-...-avenue-plant/

and another: https://journal.classiccars.com/2018/09/22/the-building-of-legend-fords-
piquette-avenue-plant/

One more from You-Tube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcmGApho3u4

Last edited by rotorwrench; 03-13-2019 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 03-16-2019, 09:39 AM   #15
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Default Re: Who Designed And Built The Ford 1904 Model B Car & Engine ?

I found this information on fordmotorhistory.com about the Piquette plant/under inovations.
http://fordmotorhistory.com/factorie...nnovations.php


When they mention the incorporation of Ford Manufacturing Co., it goes on about the leverage buy out of Malcomson and several other investors. They set up engine production at the Bellevue Avenue building to build the Model N engines under a new shell company that didn't include Malcomson. The Model B and later K engines were left to the Dodge brothers to manufacture according to that. It is an interesting read.


Alex Malcomson went on to build the Aerocar plant next to the old Mack Avenue plant since he owned the coal yard there. It later became the first Hudson Motor Co plant.
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Old 03-16-2019, 04:57 PM   #16
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Default Re: Who Designed And Built The Ford 1904 Model B Car & Engine ?

Those heads look a little different than these three bolt I have posted below. Like many parts of the water cooled model, the three bolt must have been a hold over from the air cooled four cylinder touring car Ford showed in Detroit February 15 through 20, 1904.

This photo is of the first complete water cooled four cylinder chassis so it's probably not quite like what you have shown above. You can see the steel slip ring to seal the water jacket in this photo. You probably have it but if not, it was taken August 6, 1904.

I'll post this and see if it works before posting anything else. Been a long time since I posted here.
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Old 03-16-2019, 05:03 PM   #17
trulyvintage
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Question Ford Model G ?

That might be the Ford Model G engine ?






Jim
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Old 03-16-2019, 10:09 PM   #18
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Default Re: Who Designed And Built The Ford 1904 Model B Car & Engine ?

The car you showed above is the one that Kim has if I recall correctly. Looks like the same chassis to me.

The cylinder jackets are copper but you can't tell it in the photo. Check out the drawing below. Pretty slick how that copper sleeve worked and HF said the jackets could be changed out easily. Pull off the head, slip the steel retainer up and slide the jacket off the top.

The fellow that had the photos taken had come from out of town so apparently Henry Ford and Wills had the chassis stripped down where you could see it better. Later that day after the photos, they attached some seats so they could make a 50 mile demonstration drive. It was ready for a side entrance tonneau body and to be part of the 1905 production model line.

This car also has that globe socket type steering sector on it. Kim was working on that steering sector part of his Model B car the last time or so he posted on the other site. The steering sector is on the right of the add. The air cooled four cylinder Ford showed at Detroit in February 1904 called for the same type steering sector.

The engine crankshaft in this car was supplied by Wyman & Gordon, Worcester, Mass. and the radiator was by Whitlock. Ford would have been getting ready for 1905 models so they probably had contracts for the first ones already made.

Apparently, Dodge didn't have anything to do with the drive shaft/rear axle/hubs from the universal joint back. Furnished as a unit by another supplier, American Ball Bearing Company, Cleveland, Ohio.

Do you have any pictures of the left side of the engine of the car above you could post?
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Last edited by drkbp; 03-17-2019 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 03-16-2019, 10:30 PM   #19
trulyvintage
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Lightbulb Kim is working on this car

Kim D is working on the Model B that started this thread.

I donít want to put too many images on a public forum.

Here are a couple shots from when I visited a few weeks ago.


Jim





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Last edited by trulyvintage; 03-16-2019 at 10:51 PM.
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Old 03-17-2019, 10:38 AM   #20
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Default Re: Who Designed And Built The Ford 1904 Model B Car & Engine ?

I love that tall timer and that big flywheel. I've seen some of those copper jacket cylinders on stationary engines of the time frame. The big Cadillac cars had them too. None of the automakers were into complicated castings yet. Most engines up to that time were made with separate cylinders. That fan must have been pretty light weight using that small belt.
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