The Ford Barn

Dbbc · 01-18-2015, 11:32 PM

Still trying to figure out why the car won't start. The car use to start great and run fine until one it started to run rough. Since then when I start the car it run rough for a few seconds then die.
Took apart the carb, clean everything, make sure gas gets into the carb, adjusted the float. No change.
Double check the wiring, seems to be fine but for one thing. Following Jack Bahm troubleshooting procedure. I checked both side of the coil with ignition off and I get both side of the coil hot. Then closed the point, turn the ignition on, and Jack said the the passenger side (witch is the + side off th coil) should be hot, and the other side not, however I have the opposite, the negative side is hot and not the positive. Everything seems to be wired properly???

Then another issue seems to be the distributor. I get no spark on cylinder #1, #2, #3, #4 get sparks.
Bad distributor body? Doesn't seem to be cracked.

Any ideas and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

tbirdtbird · 01-19-2015, 12:10 AM

cannot tell from your wording which cyls have spark and which don't. But when you figure out how to get spark to all 4 the car will run again. The wiring to the coil I am sure has not changed since before when it ran fine.

who is Jack Baum?

burner31 · 01-19-2015, 12:15 AM

Just before it started messing with you did you do anything with the battery?

Charlie Stephens · 01-19-2015, 01:44 AM

As I understand what you are saying you didn't do anything before it started running badly. I would try switching the condenser (you should carry an extra under the seat anyway, if you don't have one buy one). When you buy the condenser get the best one from a place like Bratton's or A&L. Are you trying to say #1 gets no spark and #2, #3 and #4 get spark? It should run on 3 cylinders, but not very well. As far as the distributor caps go, there is some real junk out there in the repro world.

Charlie Stephens

Tom Wesenberg · 01-19-2015, 01:51 AM

Battery positive ground, the black coil wire should have 6 volts at all times and go to the coil - primary post. The red wire should go from the coil + post to the switch, then down to the points. In late 1929 the coil terminals changed sides for polarity. Don't worry about the coil polarity for now, because it will run either way.

Do you get any sparks from the coil wire to the head nut? If not, stop the engine with the points open and key ON, then short the points contacts with a screwdriver, off and on, and see if you get a spark out of the coil wire.

Once you get sparks from the coil wire, then check the rotor and cap. I've seen a couple rotors that shorted the high voltage through the plastic to the distributor cam, so it never reached the tip of the rotor.

Synchro909 · 01-19-2015, 05:38 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

......

Once you get sparks from the coil wire, then check the rotor and cap. I've seen a couple rotors that shorted the high voltage through the plastic to the distributor cam, so it never reached the tip of the rotor.

The way I read your post is you get no spark on #1 but do get it on #'s 2,3 & 4. If that is so, I think it unlikely to be the rotor button causing the problem as it would leak the spark on all cylinders. I suggest you check for spark at the lead from the coil to the distributor cap as Tom says and if you get spark reliably, it could be a faulty distributor cap leaking the spark to ground on #1 but even then, it should keep running, though roughly so long as you have a little throttle on. If you have no throttle on, it may stop as you describe. Have you checked the porcelain insulation on #1 plug for cracks? Spark might go to ground there too.
You say you have gone through the carby so it seems to me that the problem is most likely electrical.

mike dixon · 01-19-2015, 06:36 AM

Im havin the same problem, how to yu check for spark?

Mitch//pa · 01-19-2015, 07:16 AM

i think its no spark on 1,2,3, but gets it on 4

either way it could be a dist body possibly

how are you checking for spark?

George Miller · 01-19-2015, 09:11 AM

I,m sure you checked the point gap.

tbirdtbird · 01-19-2015, 10:28 AM

"Im havin the same problem, how to yu check for spark?"

see #5

700rpm · 01-19-2015, 12:37 PM

I lean toward bad dist. body, or possibly bad lobe on the dist. cam, causing the points to break unevenly. Maybe a bad pigtail. Maybe a loose condenser. Something in the distributor, though. Easy to check.

edmondclinton · 01-19-2015, 01:26 PM

When you're checking for sparks, not just any ol' spark will do. You need a fat blue-white spark!

Make sure the engine is in a position where the points are closed. Turn on the ignition. Disconnect the coil wire from the dist. and hold the end just removed about 1/4 inch away from a head nut. Using a screwdriver or some other insulated tool, open the points. A fat blue-white spark should jump from the coil wire to the head nut if everything is healthy.

A thin yellowish spark is weak and is no good and of course no spark is most certainly no good.

Allow the points to snap closed if you want to repeat the process for another look.

If the gap is correct on your points I bet they are just oxidized and need cleaning. Points do that just from exposure to the air in the atmosphere. That's why it's best for people to go to the trouble to make sure the engine is in the correct position for the points to be closed when storing a car that will not be run for a long time.

It's also possible that your points may be pitted and burnt and several other things may be the cause of your problem as have already been mentioned. Come back for more instruction if you can't get it going.

Charlie Stephens · 01-19-2015, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edmondclinton

When you're checking for sparks, not just any ol' spark will do. You need a fat blue-white spark!

Make sure the engine is in a position where the points are closed. Turn on the ignition. Disconnect the coil wire from the dist. and hold the end just removed about 1/4 inch away from a head nut. Using a screwdriver or some other insulated tool, open the points. A fat blue-white spark should jump from the coil wire to the head nut if everything is healthy.

A thin yellowish spark is weak and is no good and of course no spark is most certainly no good.

Allow the points to snap closed if you want to repeat the process for another look.

If the gap is correct on your points I bet they are just oxidized and need cleaning. Points do that just from exposure to the air in the atmosphere. That's why it's best for people to go to the trouble to make sure the engine is in the correct position for the points to be closed when storing a car that will not be run for a long time.

It's also possible that your points may be pitted and burnt and several other things may be the cause of your problem as have already been mentioned. Come back for more instruction if you can't get it going.

You forgot to mention to hold the coil wire with an insulated tool (or maybe your computer adjusted your punctuation). Of course he probably would have figured that out pretty quick. You probably don't need the insulated tool for the points as they are only 6 volts.

Charlie Stephens

1931 flamingo · 01-19-2015, 04:09 PM

Is the rotor turning??
Paul in CT

edmondclinton · 01-19-2015, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

You forgot to mention to hold the coil wire with an insulated tool (or maybe your computer adjusted your punctuation). Of course he probably would have figured that out pretty quick. You probably don't need the insulated tool for the points as they are only 6 volts.

Charlie Stephens

I don't like to use my fingers when fooling around with sparks and generally wear a pair of good gloves even to hold a coil wire by the insulation.

There used to be a mechanic at a shop here locally years ago who would check for spark, on any vehicle, by holding on to the end of the coil wire while the engine was turning over with the ignition on. If he wasn't satisfied by the amount of shock he received he considered the spark to be weak!

Dbbc · 01-19-2015, 05:50 PM

To answer some of the questios, the rotor does turn, I get a spark from the distributor cap to the head nut. I took the copper wire off the spark plug (new spark plugs, champion w16) and I have spark on 2,3,4 but not on one ( closest to radiator)

I will order a condensor and both plates in the distributor. By the way the copper end of the condensor where the screws that holds it, spins. Probably should't but I am not sure if it is defective. Should I use a upper plate with the modern condensor?

Lastly what would cause the negative side off the coil to be hot when the point are closed and the ignition on?

edmondclinton · 01-19-2015, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dbbc

To answer some of the questios, the rotor does turn, I get a spark from the distributor cap to the head nut. I took the copper wire off the spark plug (new spark plugs, champion w16) and I have spark on 2,3,4 but not on one ( closest to radiator)

I will order a condensor and both plates in the distributor. By the way the copper end of the condensor where the screws that holds it, spins. Probably should't but I am not sure if it is defective. Should I use a upper plate with the modern condensor?

Lastly what would cause the negative side off the coil to be hot when the point are closed and the ignition on?

Do you get a consistent spark from the coil wire to a head nut every time your work the points? If so what does it look like?

George Miller · 01-19-2015, 06:21 PM

By the way the copper end of the condensor where the screws that holds it, spins.

That is not a good thing, you need to replace it. But if you get a good blue spark on 2,3,4 you have points that are not opening on one cylinder, or you got a bad dist body. Need to check play in dist shaft, make sure the points are opening on all 4 cam positions.

Dbbc · 01-19-2015, 06:42 PM

I will check if the point open on all 4 side of the cam. I did not check I assumed that all 4 sides of the cam should be the same. By the way the shaft does not have any side to side play.
Also I was wondering how snug should the rotor fit. Mine is pretty wobbly and I wonder if it is not rotating properly and does not make a spark with the contact for cylinder #1

AL in NY · 01-19-2015, 06:58 PM

How snuggly does the distributor body fit on the distributor? Does it move around? If it fits snug, check the gap between the rotor and the metal contacts inside the distributor body. That gap should be pretty much the same on all four contacts. Also check continuity between the inner contacts and the outer(top) contacts to make sure you have a short/very very low resistance.

01-19-2015, 06:36 AM	#7
mike dixon Junior Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 15	Re: Still won't start Im havin the same problem, how to yu check for spark?

01-19-2015, 07:16 AM	#8
Mitch//pa BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks County, PA Posts: 11,454	Re: Still won't start i think its no spark on 1,2,3, but gets it on 4 either way it could be a dist body possibly how are you checking for spark? Last edited by Mitch//pa; 01-19-2015 at 07:29 AM.

01-19-2015, 09:11 AM	#9
George Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NC Posts: 2,975	Re: Still won't start I,m sure you checked the point gap.

01-19-2015, 10:28 AM	#10
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: Still won't start "Im havin the same problem, how to yu check for spark?" see #5 __________________ '31 180A

01-19-2015, 12:37 PM	#11
700rpm Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 5,906	Re: Still won't start I lean toward bad dist. body, or possibly bad lobe on the dist. cam, causing the points to break unevenly. Maybe a bad pigtail. Maybe a loose condenser. Something in the distributor, though. Easy to check. __________________ Ray Horton, Portland, OR As you go through life, keep your eye on the donut, not the hole. Last edited by 700rpm; 01-19-2015 at 12:43 PM.

01-18-2015, 11:32 PM	#1
Dbbc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Honolulu Posts: 116	Still won't start Still trying to figure out why the car won't start. The car use to start great and run fine until one it started to run rough. Since then when I start the car it run rough for a few seconds then die. Took apart the carb, clean everything, make sure gas gets into the carb, adjusted the float. No change. Double check the wiring, seems to be fine but for one thing. Following Jack Bahm troubleshooting procedure. I checked both side of the coil with ignition off and I get both side of the coil hot. Then closed the point, turn the ignition on, and Jack said the the passenger side (witch is the + side off th coil) should be hot, and the other side not, however I have the opposite, the negative side is hot and not the positive. Everything seems to be wired properly??? Then another issue seems to be the distributor. I get no spark on cylinder #1, #2, #3, #4 get sparks. Bad distributor body? Doesn't seem to be cracked. Any ideas and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

01-19-2015, 12:10 AM	#2
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: Still won't start cannot tell from your wording which cyls have spark and which don't. But when you figure out how to get spark to all 4 the car will run again. The wiring to the coil I am sure has not changed since before when it ran fine. who is Jack Baum? __________________ '31 180A

01-19-2015, 12:15 AM	#3
burner31 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Shawnee, Ok Posts: 3,471	Re: Still won't start Just before it started messing with you did you do anything with the battery? __________________ Keith Shawnee OK '31 SW 160-B

01-19-2015, 01:44 AM	#4
Charlie Stephens Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern California Posts: 7,033	Re: Still won't start As I understand what you are saying you didn't do anything before it started running badly. I would try switching the condenser (you should carry an extra under the seat anyway, if you don't have one buy one). When you buy the condenser get the best one from a place like Bratton's or A&L. Are you trying to say #1 gets no spark and #2, #3 and #4 get spark? It should run on 3 cylinders, but not very well. As far as the distributor caps go, there is some real junk out there in the repro world. Charlie Stephens

01-19-2015, 01:51 AM	#5
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Still won't start Battery positive ground, the black coil wire should have 6 volts at all times and go to the coil - primary post. The red wire should go from the coil + post to the switch, then down to the points. In late 1929 the coil terminals changed sides for polarity. Don't worry about the coil polarity for now, because it will run either way. Do you get any sparks from the coil wire to the head nut? If not, stop the engine with the points open and key ON, then short the points contacts with a screwdriver, off and on, and see if you get a spark out of the coil wire. Once you get sparks from the coil wire, then check the rotor and cap. I've seen a couple rotors that shorted the high voltage through the plastic to the distributor cam, so it never reached the tip of the rotor.

01-19-2015, 01:26 PM	#12
edmondclinton BANNED Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: austin, tx Posts: 195	Re: Still won't start When you're checking for sparks, not just any ol' spark will do. You need a fat blue-white spark! Make sure the engine is in a position where the points are closed. Turn on the ignition. Disconnect the coil wire from the dist. and hold the end just removed about 1/4 inch away from a head nut. Using a screwdriver or some other insulated tool, open the points. A fat blue-white spark should jump from the coil wire to the head nut if everything is healthy. A thin yellowish spark is weak and is no good and of course no spark is most certainly no good. Allow the points to snap closed if you want to repeat the process for another look. If the gap is correct on your points I bet they are just oxidized and need cleaning. Points do that just from exposure to the air in the atmosphere. That's why it's best for people to go to the trouble to make sure the engine is in the correct position for the points to be closed when storing a car that will not be run for a long time. It's also possible that your points may be pitted and burnt and several other things may be the cause of your problem as have already been mentioned. Come back for more instruction if you can't get it going. Last edited by edmondclinton; 01-19-2015 at 01:43 PM.

01-19-2015, 04:09 PM	#14
1931 flamingo Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: new britain,ct 06052 Posts: 9,390	Re: Still won't start Is the rotor turning?? Paul in CT

01-19-2015, 05:50 PM	#16
Dbbc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Honolulu Posts: 116	Re: Still won't start To answer some of the questios, the rotor does turn, I get a spark from the distributor cap to the head nut. I took the copper wire off the spark plug (new spark plugs, champion w16) and I have spark on 2,3,4 but not on one ( closest to radiator) I will order a condensor and both plates in the distributor. By the way the copper end of the condensor where the screws that holds it, spins. Probably should't but I am not sure if it is defective. Should I use a upper plate with the modern condensor? Lastly what would cause the negative side off the coil to be hot when the point are closed and the ignition on?

01-19-2015, 06:21 PM	#18
George Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NC Posts: 2,975	Re: Still won't start By the way the copper end of the condensor where the screws that holds it, spins. That is not a good thing, you need to replace it. But if you get a good blue spark on 2,3,4 you have points that are not opening on one cylinder, or you got a bad dist body. Need to check play in dist shaft, make sure the points are opening on all 4 cam positions.

01-19-2015, 06:42 PM	#19
Dbbc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Honolulu Posts: 116	Re: Still won't start I will check if the point open on all 4 side of the cam. I did not check I assumed that all 4 sides of the cam should be the same. By the way the shaft does not have any side to side play. Also I was wondering how snug should the rotor fit. Mine is pretty wobbly and I wonder if it is not rotating properly and does not make a spark with the contact for cylinder #1

01-19-2015, 06:58 PM	#20
AL in NY Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern Upstate New York Posts: 1,160	Re: Still won't start How snuggly does the distributor body fit on the distributor? Does it move around? If it fits snug, check the gap between the rotor and the metal contacts inside the distributor body. That gap should be pretty much the same on all four contacts. Also check continuity between the inner contacts and the outer(top) contacts to make sure you have a short/very very low resistance. __________________ AL in NY