The Ford Barn

rossofozini · 03-02-2014, 02:53 AM

A good friend has a very annoying intermittent problem that's just appeared on an otherwise very reliable car restored in the early 70's.

Every now and then the car will not fire up, it cranks over but seems to loose spark. Problem is the problem is never there enough to diagnose the problem properly. The system has been converted to - earth and is now 12v. The contact system has been modified with a condenser mounted on the upper plate within the distributor, this all looked to be well done and in good order. After poking around the complex

electrical system on the vehicle I suspect one of two possible things may be the cause. First: it has an original ignition switch that seems to work without any issue. What's the reliability of the original switches? Second: In order to keep the car looking original a 12 volt coil was transplanted into an old coil body, however the oil leaked out some time ago. I would personally place my bets on this, owing to the intermittent nature of the problem and knowing there is no cooling oil in the coil. I suspect a fracture in the coil coils.

I have also given the owner some simple test procedures to eliminate other possibility.

Any thought would be greatly appreciated

Ross

Mike V. Florida · 03-02-2014, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rossofozini

A good friend has a very annoying intermittent problem that's just appeared on an otherwise very reliable car restored in the early 70's.

? Second: In order to keep the car looking original a 12 volt coil was transplanted into an old coil body, however the oil leaked out some time ago. I would personally place my bets on this, owing to the intermittent nature of the problem and knowing there is no cooling oil in the coil. I suspect a fracture in the coil coils.

I have also given the owner some simple test procedures to eliminate other possibility.

Any thought would be greatly appreciated

Ross

Forget the looks for now and put in a new 12 volt coil just to see if the reliability goes up.

Tom Wesenberg · 03-02-2014, 04:09 AM

Original popout switches are reliable until the old insulation breaks down on the wire running through the armored cable.

Purdy Swoft · 03-02-2014, 09:29 AM

Sounds like a real mess .

jmeckel · 03-02-2014, 09:35 AM

Replace the coil with a new one and do not modify it, without oil in it it will not cool properly and can give all kinds of problems. I can't believe you do not have more than just intermittent problems with a bad coil.

V4F · 03-02-2014, 10:16 AM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

coil first - condenser next .............. who would drain the oil out of a coil ?

Tom Wesenberg · 03-02-2014, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V4F

coil first - condenser next .............. who would drain the oil out of a coil ?

It can happen when an oil filled coil is mounted with the tower down.

Purdy Swoft · 03-02-2014, 10:54 AM

Its best to only use an epoxy filled coil if you don't still use the tar filled original coil. Oil filled coils must be mounted with the tower and wire connections pointing upward or the coil will fail quickly, even if the oil doesn't leak out.

Bob C · 03-02-2014, 12:52 PM

If you have this setup in your distributor it may be the problem.

Bob

Purdy Swoft · 03-02-2014, 02:43 PM

I agree with Bob C. The V8 points setup is a problem!!!!!!! I call it a make shift rig.

MAG · 03-02-2014, 04:45 PM

"If you have this setup in your distributor it may be the problem."

Back in the late 80's and early 90's before the short-proof condenser and good quality original style points were available I converted a original upper distributor plate to use "modern points and condenser". I used old Mustang points and condenser to make the modification. The old original style pig-tail wire was used. It has worked flawlessly over the years since then. I have installed them in many of my club members cars and they are doing fine. I have never installed the system with the brass connectors as shown in the picture above.
Annually, I remove the distributor and do the usual checks for condition and wear. Points are adjusted using a dial indicator to assure proper gap and check the cam for even lift on all lobes. I do not bother with them after that. Oil the distributor about every 3 months.

rossofozini · 03-03-2014, 05:51 AM

The oil in the coil has leaked out due to being mounted upside down and not sealed well. The oil does two things one is to help with cooling and serves the of slowing of cold to hot to cold process. This limits the chance of internal fracture of fine copper wires.
I would say that the coil is the culprit. The distributor mod was done many many years ago and the vehicle would have traveled 20000 miles, if there is an intermittent fault, I would call that problematic, not the time its been reliable!
The vehicle is defiantly not a mess.

Thanks for the suggestions.

jw hash · 03-03-2014, 07:52 AM

make sure your pop out is NOT screwed into the distributor to fare. they can push the lower plate over and ground out on the distributor base just enough to drive you nuts.

Purdy Swoft · 03-03-2014, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAG

"If you have this setup in your distributor it may be the problem."

Back in the late 80's and early 90's before the short-proof condenser and good quality original style points were available I converted a original upper distributor plate to use "modern points and condenser". I used old Mustang points and condenser to make the modification. The old original style pig-tail wire was used. It has worked flawlessly over the years since then. I have installed them in many of my club members cars and they are doing fine. I have never installed the system with the brass connectors as shown in the picture above.
Annually, I remove the distributor and do the usual checks for condition and wear. Points are adjusted using a dial indicator to assure proper gap and check the cam for even lift on all lobes. I do not bother with them after that. Oil the distributor about every 3 months.

Some of the V8 points setups that were owner made work better than the ones offered by the vendors. Some, back in the day used Filco (not philco) points that worked pretty good untill they were no longer available. The points and condensers used on the so called modern points setups sold by the vendors are the cheapest China made parts. If the vendors used the higher priced points (accell and such) the price would be more than most would pay. People that don't know better think modern has got to be an advantage even if it is basically 1954 style. Thinking that the V8 points are an improvement and a cool setup many have fell for it. The cheap china parts fail quickly. The owner can buy the much more expensive points and maybe get by but they are still very difficult to adjust and no advantage at all. The person ends up with a Bastardized setup that is difficult to adjust and the V8 condensers fail very quickly, sometimes right out of the box. The average common man doesn't have a dial indicator or have a clue of how to set up and use one. The original style points are easy enough to file and adjust that the average person can adjust with no problem. Even the old repro original style points that didn't match can be fitted to work good with a little rat tail file work on the upper plate under where the adjustable points block mounts.

cfordman · 03-03-2014, 01:11 PM

what is the problem with "modern" points be sides the quality of the parts? is it a matter of the plates shorting to the case or the plates losing ground. the A i own came with the modern set up, its works well ( read as it starts and idles in the garage). before I venture out on the road would it be wise to cough up for a better set of points and condenser or switch back to what worked for henry?

Tom Wesenberg · 03-03-2014, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfordman

what is the problem with "modern" points be sides the quality of the parts? is it a matter of the plates shorting to the case or the plates losing ground. the A i own came with the modern set up, its works well ( read as it starts and idles in the garage). before I venture out on the road would it be wise to cough up for a better set of points and condenser or switch back to what worked for henry?

I find the original points and condenser is more reliable and easier to adjust. Also if you have a problem on the side of the road most people in the club carry spare original type parts for repairs.

Purdy Swoft · 03-03-2014, 02:00 PM

[QUOTE=cfordman;834366]what is the problem with "modern" points be sides the quality of the parts? is it a matter of the plates shorting to the case or the plates losing ground. the A i own came with the modern set up, its works well ( read as it starts and idles in the garage). before I venture out on the road would it be wise to cough up for a better set of points and condenser or switch back to what worked for henry?[/QUOTE

The V8 style points that I have experience with would run fairly good for a while untill they quit working completely. When they quit working and the truck rolled to a stop, I would find that the wire connection at the points would short out against the cast iron distributor housing. There would be no visable problem but the only thing that would make it run again would be to replace the points. When V8 points are used, the original upper plate is ruined to the point that original points can no longer be used unless the original style upper breaker plate is returned to the distributor. Most that have fell for the V8 setup will try to get by with replaceing the points with another set of cheap V8 points. The much higher priced V8 points may actually work better but you will still have a bastardized setup that is difficult to work with and no advantage at all. I would only use the original style points.

MAG · 03-03-2014, 02:28 PM

Someone please inform me where the difference in the "modern Point" style configuration, incorporating the original style pig tail wire, is significantly different than the point/condenser setup used in practically all automobiles and trucks built from the 20's through the mid 60's or when electronic ignition was introduced.

1wonton · 03-03-2014, 02:48 PM

Many modern point sets have a plastic rubbing block instead of the original fibre block. Most likely your problem is with the condensor. Try more than one new condensor as I have had brand new condensors proove defective.

Duffy1 · 03-03-2014, 06:03 PM

Ditto Purdy Soft .

Bought a modern point dist from well known vendor . Car would not start . Took dist apart and wire going to upper plat was ground out against the dist. housing . Fixed this and put dist. back in engine . Engine ran great for 30 minutes and started missing . Replaced condenser with one from NAPA and in the process noticed how cheap the points looked so I replaced with NAPA points . 2,000 miles later and no problems . Went through all of this because a few folks in our club told me you could not get GOOD repro. points for model A dist . This was also before I knew about the Ford Barn.

03-02-2014, 02:53 AM	#1
rossofozini Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: south australia Posts: 166	Who's the likely culprit? A good friend has a very annoying intermittent problem that's just appeared on an otherwise very reliable car restored in the early 70's. Every now and then the car will not fire up, it cranks over but seems to loose spark. Problem is the problem is never there enough to diagnose the problem properly. The system has been converted to - earth and is now 12v. The contact system has been modified with a condenser mounted on the upper plate within the distributor, this all looked to be well done and in good order. After poking around the complex electrical system on the vehicle I suspect one of two possible things may be the cause. First: it has an original ignition switch that seems to work without any issue. What's the reliability of the original switches? Second: In order to keep the car looking original a 12 volt coil was transplanted into an old coil body, however the oil leaked out some time ago. I would personally place my bets on this, owing to the intermittent nature of the problem and knowing there is no cooling oil in the coil. I suspect a fracture in the coil coils. I have also given the owner some simple test procedures to eliminate other possibility. Any thought would be greatly appreciated Ross

03-02-2014, 04:09 AM	#3
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Who's the likely culprit? Original popout switches are reliable until the old insulation breaks down on the wire running through the armored cable. Last edited by Tom Wesenberg; 03-02-2014 at 10:18 AM.

03-02-2014, 09:29 AM	#4
Purdy Swoft Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alabama Posts: 8,099	Re: Who's the likely culprit? Sounds like a real mess .

03-02-2014, 09:35 AM	#5
jmeckel Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Luck WI Posts: 550	Re: Who's the likely culprit? Replace the coil with a new one and do not modify it, without oil in it it will not cool properly and can give all kinds of problems. I can't believe you do not have more than just intermittent problems with a bad coil. __________________ Jon "If you choose to not decide, you still have made a choice!" RUSH Don't tell me what you know..... Tell me what you have done.

03-02-2014, 10:16 AM	#6
V4F Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: ca. Posts: 2,522	Re: Who's the likely culprit? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) coil first - condenser next .............. who would drain the oil out of a coil ? __________________ V4f

03-02-2014, 10:54 AM	#8
Purdy Swoft Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alabama Posts: 8,099	Re: Who's the likely culprit? Its best to only use an epoxy filled coil if you don't still use the tar filled original coil. Oil filled coils must be mounted with the tower and wire connections pointing upward or the coil will fail quickly, even if the oil doesn't leak out.

03-02-2014, 02:43 PM	#10
Purdy Swoft Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alabama Posts: 8,099	Re: Who's the likely culprit? I agree with Bob C. The V8 points setup is a problem!!!!!!! I call it a make shift rig.

03-02-2014, 04:45 PM	#11
MAG Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 925	Re: Who's the likely culprit? "If you have this setup in your distributor it may be the problem." Back in the late 80's and early 90's before the short-proof condenser and good quality original style points were available I converted a original upper distributor plate to use "modern points and condenser". I used old Mustang points and condenser to make the modification. The old original style pig-tail wire was used. It has worked flawlessly over the years since then. I have installed them in many of my club members cars and they are doing fine. I have never installed the system with the brass connectors as shown in the picture above. Annually, I remove the distributor and do the usual checks for condition and wear. Points are adjusted using a dial indicator to assure proper gap and check the cam for even lift on all lobes. I do not bother with them after that. Oil the distributor about every 3 months. __________________ I noticed the harder I work the luckier I get!

03-03-2014, 05:51 AM	#12
rossofozini Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: south australia Posts: 166	Re: Who's the likely culprit? The oil in the coil has leaked out due to being mounted upside down and not sealed well. The oil does two things one is to help with cooling and serves the of slowing of cold to hot to cold process. This limits the chance of internal fracture of fine copper wires. I would say that the coil is the culprit. The distributor mod was done many many years ago and the vehicle would have traveled 20000 miles, if there is an intermittent fault, I would call that problematic, not the time its been reliable! The vehicle is defiantly not a mess. Thanks for the suggestions.

03-03-2014, 07:52 AM	#13
jw hash Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Auburn Washington Posts: 2,552	Re: Who's the likely culprit? make sure your pop out is NOT screwed into the distributor to fare. they can push the lower plate over and ground out on the distributor base just enough to drive you nuts.

03-03-2014, 01:11 PM	#15
cfordman Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 66	Re: Who's the likely culprit? what is the problem with "modern" points be sides the quality of the parts? is it a matter of the plates shorting to the case or the plates losing ground. the A i own came with the modern set up, its works well ( read as it starts and idles in the garage). before I venture out on the road would it be wise to cough up for a better set of points and condenser or switch back to what worked for henry?

03-03-2014, 02:00 PM	#17
Purdy Swoft Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alabama Posts: 8,099	Re: Who's the likely culprit? [QUOTE=cfordman;834366]what is the problem with "modern" points be sides the quality of the parts? is it a matter of the plates shorting to the case or the plates losing ground. the A i own came with the modern set up, its works well ( read as it starts and idles in the garage). before I venture out on the road would it be wise to cough up for a better set of points and condenser or switch back to what worked for henry?[/QUOTE The V8 style points that I have experience with would run fairly good for a while untill they quit working completely. When they quit working and the truck rolled to a stop, I would find that the wire connection at the points would short out against the cast iron distributor housing. There would be no visable problem but the only thing that would make it run again would be to replace the points. When V8 points are used, the original upper plate is ruined to the point that original points can no longer be used unless the original style upper breaker plate is returned to the distributor. Most that have fell for the V8 setup will try to get by with replaceing the points with another set of cheap V8 points. The much higher priced V8 points may actually work better but you will still have a bastardized setup that is difficult to work with and no advantage at all. I would only use the original style points.

03-03-2014, 02:28 PM	#18
MAG Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 925	Re: Who's the likely culprit? Someone please inform me where the difference in the "modern Point" style configuration, incorporating the original style pig tail wire, is significantly different than the point/condenser setup used in practically all automobiles and trucks built from the 20's through the mid 60's or when electronic ignition was introduced. __________________ I noticed the harder I work the luckier I get!

03-03-2014, 02:48 PM	#19
1wonton BANNED Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Vallejo, Ca Posts: 125	Re: Who's the likely culprit? Many modern point sets have a plastic rubbing block instead of the original fibre block. Most likely your problem is with the condensor. Try more than one new condensor as I have had brand new condensors proove defective.

03-03-2014, 06:03 PM	#20
Duffy1 Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Mo. City , Texas Posts: 725	Re: Who's the likely culprit? Ditto Purdy Soft . Bought a modern point dist from well known vendor . Car would not start . Took dist apart and wire going to upper plat was ground out against the dist. housing . Fixed this and put dist. back in engine . Engine ran great for 30 minutes and started missing . Replaced condenser with one from NAPA and in the process noticed how cheap the points looked so I replaced with NAPA points . 2,000 miles later and no problems . Went through all of this because a few folks in our club told me you could not get GOOD repro. points for model A dist . This was also before I knew about the Ford Barn.