Oil pipe question on side of oil pan

[Bob from Northport]

The photos show the end of the oil pipe that mounts on the outside of the drivers side of the oil pan. Runs from the oil pump to the pan. The endo uses a rubber seal inside the oil pump that goes over the pipe and is secured to the pump. After cleaning, I see a metal ring on the end of the pipe. Is that ring that holds the seal part of the seal?? Or secured to the pipe permanently??

[paul2748]

It's been a while since I had mine apart, but my recollection is that the pipe has a plain end and that piece is a part of the seal. The seal has a metal part. If the end of the pipe is not round, it must be fixed.

[miker98038]

Been a long time for me too, but I remember it as Paul does. The “ferrule” ring is part of the seal. It has to come off, even if the new one doesn’t have one.

Seems to me I read a comment by Ted Eaton over at yblocksforever that he uses white grease in the install.

[Bob from Northport]

I think the end of the pipe is NOT round, but slightly bent. Any suggestions on how to sharpen the shape back to normal.???

[KULTULZ]

Have you found your solution(s) as of yet?

You have shotgunned several individual posts regarding the same subject and is a little difficult to follow.

That metal ring on the end of the tube is a compression ring, part of the 6698 seal. HARRY ARMSTRONG over tightened the fitting with his 24" CHI-COM combination wrench and warped the ring and tube.

That tube end has to be perfectly concentric to not only prevent leakage but to keep the oil pump from sucking outside air possibly aerating the engine oil.

The seal @ the oil pan flange is of rubber, .63" ID - .91" OD - .12" THICK

FORD PN B4A 6643-A

NOTE -

The larger copper seal (B4A 6626-B) shown around the 6643 seal (rubber) in the last ILL is for the 1955/ one piece inlet tube so don't let it confuse you. It doesn't belong in the group shot.

[paul2748]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Sure you got the right seal in the right envelope ? Pic looks more like the seal at the oil pump and dimensions are a lot different than what Bob says.

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Have you found your solution(s) as of yet?

You have shotgunned several individual posts regarding the same subject and is a little difficult to follow.

That metal ring on the end of the tube is a compression ring, part of the 6698 seal. HARRY ARMSTRONG over tightened the fitting with his 24" CHI-COM combination wrench and warped the ring and tube.

That tube end has to be perfectly concentric to not only prevent leakage but to keep the oil pump from sucking outside air possibly aerating the engine oil.

The seal @ the oil pan flange is of rubber, .63" ID - .91" OD - .12" THICK

FORD PN B4A 6643-A

[miker98038]

I really don’t know how to restore the tube. I know guys that could do it. The trick is to tap it back to round without stretching the metal. Good metal working guys, with something as a mandrel (bolt, dowel, ?) would slowly work it back into shape. But where you find them is the tough part.

It’s a question you might ask over at yblocksforever, not so much for advice, but maybe someone still has a 256 around after they upgraded to a 292. Same thing here in a new carefully titled post or the want adds.

The torque on that nut and seal is pretty low. I don’t know the number, but it’s easy to over do it.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by paul2748

Sure you got the right seal in the right envelope ? Pic looks more like the seal at the oil pump and dimensions are a lot different than what Bobsays.

Originally Posted by Bob from Northport

The hole has a ledge around it that the gasket sits on. The diameter of the gasket on the outside is 5/8". The gasket sits down into the hole slightly. Inner diameter would be 1/2"

I have the seal right (well, FORD does actually). I have no idea of what he took off, do you?

Most likely, it will need a new tube. Trying to get that sleeve off and it's being bent out of shape as it is, it will most likely leak.

[KULTULZ]

It’s a question you might ask over at yblocksforever, not so much for advice, but maybe someone still has a 256 around ...

The 1954 239 and 256 two piece tube was unique. FORD went to a one piece tube in 1955.

The tube is still available NOS.

Only GOD knows what this car has been through and who attempted to patch it.

[KULTULZ]

Here is the previous discussion @ y-blocksforever -

http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic165543.aspx

[KULTULZ]

Bob,

I posted a parts request @ y-blocksforever and an waiting for a reply -

http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/To...ate=1#bm165845

[Bob from Northport]

Thanks!!

[KULTULZ]

This is TED EATON's response this AM -

Ted (2/1/2024)

Kultulz. Pass it on that I have the oil pump inlet seals and the two gaskets for the interior and exterior pan to tube attachment for the 1954 oil pans. I do not have the flat rubber washer that sandwiches between those two inlet tubes at the oil pan though but any appropriately sized O ring will work at that spot.

As far as the deformation in the tube, I use a ½” diameter steel drift to remove the crush caused by using the non-Ford steel banded inlet seals. Some white or lithium grease works as a sealant on those ‘all rubber, no steel’ inlet seals when installing them.

I can be contacted through my shop email and that information is located on the ‘Contact Us’ tab at www.eatonbalancing.com .

When someone with his knowledgeable/experience and being busy takes the time out of his day to help an enthusiast, that's saying a whole lot.

There are good people left ...

[KULTULZ]

The needed seal missing is BEST GASKET PN 275.

It is shown in the complete overhaul gasket set RS572-G-4. I do not know if they sell it apart from the complete kit. I think you have to go through a parts jobber as they do not sell direct.

It is also shown in the FEL-PRO kit shown on the thread @ y-blocks.forever. FEL-PRO may sell it separate.

[paul2748]

Bob - If your still looking for the 6643, I believe the 133 Best Gasket is the one your looking for after looking at the gasket listing above. As I mentioned, an o-ring may work in place of it.. For the tube to oil pump seal, the 275 looks to be correct.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by paul2748

Bob - If your still looking for the 6643, I believe the 133 Best Gasket is the one your looking for after looking at the gasket listing above. As I mentioned, an o-ring may work in place of it.. For the tube to oil pump seal, the 275 looks to be correct.

133 Oil Pan Drain Plug

Maybe try again?

275 - Oil Pump Inlet Tube Seal (6643)

EDIT -

HazardTBird

Kultulz;

I have that rubber gasket (I think), Felpro gasket set, and won't be using it as I have the one piece tube on everything I've got. I will get in the shop tonight and check that it matches the dimensions you gave and will post tomorrow if they don't match. If I don't post they matched and then we will work out how I can get it to you or your buddy.

THREAD - http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Po...arentID=165854

Just waiting on confirmation.

[paul2748]

I'll stick with my original statement as the size of the drain plug, according to my experience, is a lot larger than what the picture seems to me and the size shown seems to be in line what the original poster says is the size..


I see no reason why the kit would exclude an important washer/o-ring.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by paul2748

I'll stick with my original statement as the size of the drain plug, according to my experience, is a lot larger than what the picture seems to me and the size shown seems to be in line what the original poster says is the size..

I see no reason why the kit would exclude an important washer/o-ring.

What exactly is it you are referring to?

[KULTULZ]

The thread run-out to its inside diameter is critical to sealing.

What is critical to this "nut" is it's thread-form and it's positional relation to it's inside bore. Too often upon installing this "nut", no lube is used, and the thread bites into the aluminum housing (where an alum hsng is used). This will cause misalignment, and a false feeling of thread engagement, with some mechanics thinking a wrench is necessary, compounding the damage.

An often overlooked feature of this "nut", also referenced as a "gland-nut" is it's concave radius, used to push the packing, for sealing the created vacuum by the georotor pump. Without a proper sealed packing, yes there is oil leakage, but more important is the strain placed on the suction side of the oil pump. Especially during "starting up phases", because of poor sealing the Prime-to-the-Pump was lost, and re-priming allowed a dry start.

by 57billc23 Jan 01, 2020 - (AUTHOR)

The 6698 seal shown below below is junk (1st PHOTO)-

The correct seal is available from - https://www.rubbertherightway.com/i-...tube-seal.html - and is a FORD AUTHORIZED REPRO PART.

Lube for seal install on tube (use white grease - LUBRI-PLATE)/thread sealer is also shown attached -

NUT - OIL PUMP TO OIL PAN INLET TUBE - EAD 6673-A (1" X 18 - HEX)

[Bob from Northport]

I guess I bored everyone to death with this discussion.
Thanks again for all your help. Paul2748 also!!!

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Bob from Northport

I guess I bored everyone to death with this discussion.

No, it became a very informative thread.

[paul2748]

Glad to help

[miker98038]

One more thing I learned about yblocks, I’ve always had the one piece pick up tube. But I had a grommet at the pump I didn’t install properly back in the 60’s, and chased the loss of oil pressure for a week until someone clued me in. That’s the great thing about these forums. Spreads the knowledge despite distance and age.

[Bob from Northport]

Kultulz-
I received the parts ordered from Rubber the Right way that you recommended. The oil pump seal they sent has NO metal crimp ring inside. It was just like the one I received from Concours parts and sent back.

[paul2748]

If you go back to the other posts about this subject, you will note that Ted Eaton the Yblock guru said that the plain rubber seal is the correct one (I posted his comments on this matter.)

Originally Posted by Bob from Northport

Kultulz-
I received the parts ordered from Rubber the Right way that you recommended. The oil pump seal they sent has NO metal crimp ring inside. It was just like the one I received from Concours parts and sent back.

[KULTULZ]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Bob from Northport

Kultulz-

I received the parts ordered from Rubber the Right way that you recommended. The oil pump seal they sent has NO metal crimp ring inside. It was just like the one I received from Concours parts and sent back.

... sob ...

Then why was their ILL with the sleeve? (because they used a photo of a FORD SERVICE PART instead of what they are selling). The sleeve prevents the seal from distorting within specified torque value.

Did it appear the same as the original piece of crap?

Ted (2/1/2024)

Kultulz. Pass it on that I have the oil pump inlet seals and the two gaskets for the interior and exterior pan to tube attachment for the 1954 oil pans. I do not have the flat rubber washer that sandwiches between those two inlet tubes at the oil pan though but any appropriately sized O ring will work at that spot.

As far as the deformation in the tube, I use a ½” diameter steel drift to remove the crush caused by using the non-Ford steel banded inlet seals.

Some white or lithium grease works as a sealant on those ‘all rubber, no steel’ inlet seals when installing them.

I can be contacted through my shop email and that information is located on the ‘Contact Us’ tab at www.eatonbalancing.com .

Attached are both photos of the NOS and FEL-PRO. Both use sleeves. I have no idea how the section of heater hose they are selling will completely seal - The ends are not even chamfered. A gland nut captures the seal and compresses it within the nut.

[Bob from Northport]

I emailed the company about why their seal did not have the metal crimp ring as their photo shows, but have not received an answer. i found a NOS seal and I am waiting for its arrival to see what it looks like.
Can anyone explain how the metal ring inside the seal seals against the pipe when the large nut is tightened??

[KULTULZ]

OK ... I have it ciphered out now ...

TED EATON uses BEST GASKETS I believe. The BEST GASKET SEAL we are discussing (275) must not have the compression sleeve.

After ciphering on the BEST GASKET PARTS LIST (ENGINE OVERHAUL SET), it turns out PN 275 is the tube to pump seal and 175 is the pan to tube seal.

If TED says that is the way he does it, so be it. Personally, I would search for NOS as if a leak did develop there, a sudden loss of oil pressure may be a result. I would also like to hold the FEL-PRO seal in my hand to examine it.

I have a source of NOS. Let me know how you want to go.

[KULTULZ]

Can anyone explain how the metal ring inside the seal seals against the pipe when the large nut is tightened??

If you notice when you get it, the seal will slide over the tube. When the gland nut is tightened to proper torque value that sleeve will compress around the tube end and bring the seal with it. The gland nut while being tightened will further compress the seal and encapsulate it. Over tighten and you may damage the seal (and tube).

I would mount the tube securing it at the pan first while putting the tube and seal into the oil pump inlet to ensure the tube and seal are positioned correctly for the gland nut to secure the seal properly.

Hopefully that explains it.

You might also want to use this product on the gland nut/oil pump threads. It will seal the threads and keep the nut from backing out with engine vibration.

https://www.permatex.com/seal-and-lock/

[Bob from Northport]

I found two NOS seals last night. Will wait to see what they look like. Thanks for the explanation about the seal.

[KULTULZ]

This is what gets me -

Our automotive rubber parts are exact reproductions and are made to standards that meet or exceed the originals. In addition to our 50+ restoration parts suppliers from across the country, we manufacture many rubber car parts here in our San Diego facility. We now offer a full line of rubber restoration parts for most American vehicles 1930+...windshield seals, door weatherstrips, beltline, window channels, rubber bumpers, grommets, odds & ends etc. Working closely with customers, friends, & parts books we meticulously reproduce every detail to make our parts the “right way.”

SOURCE - https://www.rubbertherightway.com/

Obviously that ain't so. And then they show a photo of an correct FORD SERVICE PARTS SEAL and is not exactly what they are selling. What will you find with the rest of their product lines?

And as time goes on and NOS parts sources dry up, it is going to be a lot worse for the enthusiast.

It's enough to p!ss off the Pope ...

[Bob from Northport]

I have not heard a word from the guys that make the seal at Rubber the Right Way. So much for that big guarantee.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Bob from Northport

I have not heard a word from the guys that make the seal at Rubber the Right Way. So much for that big guarantee.

I apologize for pointing you in that direction. I thought they were a quality vendor.

A vendor that has no customer service should be avoided at all costs unless it is your last gasp to hopefully source a hard to find item. At the least, concours responded and gave you a credit.

I have read threads that describe once buying one of these CHI-COM GM BASED SLOPPY COPY disc brake kits, that once the buyer is having trouble the reply will be, " No one else (or your the first) has complained about it".

If a vendor sells below quality parts such as off-shore low quality copies, it should be mentioned the source of that product in the ad. And it is not just a classic car problem. Try sourcing quality service parts on a late model (incl factory parts) and see what you run up against.

- PART IN QUESTION -

[russonator]

When it comes to Ford parts, my experience with Rubber the Right Way is that they are simply resellers of Dennis Carpenter products.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by russonator

When it comes to Ford parts, my experience with Rubber the Right Way is that they are simply resellers of Dennis Carpenter products.

It seems most (not all) vendors seem to source parts from the same sources. CARPENTER has good quality parts and then also sells some junk. I think since the passing of Carpenter, the quality has suffered. Then you have some such as CASCO which to me offers 1st class parts. You just need to figure out which parts offered interchange between the PASS CAR and BIRD.

But then again, I am old, cranky and need a MIDOL TREATMENT from a 50gal drum (concentrate) compressed air induced as I seem to be retaining water on an continual and increasing basis.

[Bob from Northport]

The manager of Rubber the right way called me today and apologized for the problem in the order. They are using the photo that Dennis Carpenter uses that shows the metal crimp ring. They buy their parts from Carpenter. Since Dennis passed, the quality and dependability of products has suffered greatly. The manager's name was Clinton. Again he apologized and refunded the total price including shipping for the order. Guess we'll just have to hunt for the correct parts.
Thank you all for your help and advise.

I have yet to see any credit or refund from Concours either.

[Bob from Northport]

Who is CASCO by the way???

[paul2748]

Classic Auto Supply Co. located in Ohio. TBird parts supplier and TBird restoration shop. Nice people to do business with, I use them all the time for my TBird parts

.

Originally Posted by Bob from Northport

Who is CASCO by the way???

[KULTULZ]

They are using the photo that Dennis Carpenter uses that shows the metal crimp ring. They buy their parts from Carpenter.

Ain't that something ...

The way they (website) make it sound they make everything themselves.

[Bob from Northport]

I received the correct oil pipe seal in the mail today. Located it on EBAY. Going to send a photo the the manager of Rubber the right way for his reference.