The Ford Barn

jrvariel48 · 07-09-2017, 11:35 AM

I checked the condenser, plugs and wires and pushed the advance up to 20 degrees it's all in around 1900+ rpm. I can't get it any higher with the springs I have. I couldn't check the dwell because my meter decided not to work today.
I removed the blower belt and went for a ride. It ran rough like a couple of cylinders weren't firing. It smelled very rich, but I don't know if that has anything to do with it.

jrvariel48 · 07-09-2017, 01:37 PM

Update. I had a fouled plug. Maybe a hotter or cooler plug?
Still getting the popping sound at about 3500 rpm. If I don't mash the pedal to the floor it runs real nice with about 2 pounds of boost and secondaries kicking in. It seems to happen at WOT around 3500 rpm
Thanks

Ronnieroadster · 07-09-2017, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Update. I had a fouled plug. Maybe a hotter or cooler plug?
Still getting the popping sound at about 3500 rpm. If I don't mash the pedal to the floor it runs real nice with about 2 pounds of boost and secondaries kicking in. It seems to happen at WOT around 3500 rpm
Thanks

Joe I'm thinking that popping sound is being caused by an ignition problem. I gave up on dual points and condensers years ago converted to Pertronix and never looked back. One issue we were having was the condensers were giving us big trouble. When I ran dual points the dwell was important as well as the type of plug wires I used.
Since you found a fouled plug that means the primary jetting is to big for the stock engine or the ignition is not hot enough to fire the plugs in a rich environment. If you feel good about the ignition system that being the coil etc then I would go down two jet sizes and also try a hotter plug. You should see a change and if its for the better I would go down another jet size removing gas a little at a time.
Ron

Pete F · 07-09-2017, 10:37 PM

So black and sooty plugs will stop the engine from reving and cause all kinds of misfiring .
So here are some things can cause that condition .
1 over jetted carbs
2 float level
3 or retarted timing
I'd go with the timing first
And put the blower belt back on you are not running any crazy boost so dio the problem with it set up the way you are going to run it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Pete F · 07-09-2017, 10:41 PM

Hey one last thing
What plugs are in the engine and please don't tell me platinum plugs because with that ignition you don't have enough spark to run them.
And what gap are you running
I run .028-.032 with a blower or turbo engine.
Keep us posted

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

jrvariel48 · 07-10-2017, 05:47 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Joe I'm thinking that popping sound is being caused by an ignition problem. I gave up on dual points and condensers years ago converted to Pertronix and never looked back. One issue we were having was the condensers were giving us big trouble. When I ran dual points the dwell was important as well as the type of plug wires I used.
Since you found a fouled plug that means the primary jetting is to big for the stock engine or the ignition is not hot enough to fire the plugs in a rich environment. If you feel good about the ignition system that being the coil etc then I would go down two jet sizes and also try a hotter plug. You should see a change and if its for the better I would go down another jet size removing gas a little at a time.
Ron

Ron will that have any effect on the AF mixture? Right now from what I could tell, my numbers are descent. Of course I need to follow them better once I get things ironed out. I'm certainly not opposed to a pertronix set up and ran one in a crab set up which worked perfectly. If it's a hotter spark I need, then I think I should go that route. Which unit should I be looking at? Igniter. 1,2 or 3? Does the advance set up stay the same?
Thank you Joe

jrvariel48 · 07-10-2017, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete F

So black and sooty plugs will stop the engine from reving and cause all kinds of misfiring .
So here are some things can cause that condition .
1 over jetted carbs
2 float level
3 or retarted timing
I'd go with the timing first
And put the blower belt back on you are not running any crazy boost so dio the problem with it set up the way you are going to run it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Pete I think my timing is ok and agree with Ron about the spark not being hot enough. I'm running NGK BL6 plugs. Right now they're gapped at 35. They were at 25. I haven't been able to see a difference yet with the problem I'm currently having.
Thank you Joe

Pete F · 07-10-2017, 08:04 AM

I just read back and saw you have a 600 Holley on this engine .
Since parts are readily available for a 600 I would see what the idle vacuum is and check the power valve for the proper setting of a blown diaphragm because if you don't have a blow back valve in the base of that carb one backfire will have blown the valve and that will cause the black plugs for sure.
And if that engine is stock I would be looking for 390 four barrel.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

jrvariel48 · 07-10-2017, 11:17 AM

The power valve is boost referenced, I'll have to check it. The carb came with the blower and intake and its what they recommend for this set up

Ronnieroadster · 07-10-2017, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Ron will that have any effect on the AF mixture? Right now from what I could tell, my numbers are descent. Of course I need to follow them better once I get things ironed out. I'm certainly not opposed to a pertronix set up and ran one in a crab set up which worked perfectly. If it's a hotter spark I need, then I think I should go that route. Which unit should I be looking at? Igniter. 1,2 or 3? Does the advance set up stay the same?
Thank you Joe

Joe the A/F reading your seeing should be used as a reference only. Since you see soot on the plugs that tells me its still to fat with gas. Im thinking if you lean it out a bit the plugs should improve in color also since your using NGK the B-6L is a cold plug you can try the B-4L that will also help since its the hotter plug. Converting to Pertronix I would go with the standard Ignitor which is the 1 that will work fine for your combination also use the correct coil and the correct plug wires so it all works correctly.
Ron

Bored&Stroked · 07-10-2017, 07:26 PM

Okay - might as well jump in again . . . this is a regular "tuning party"! LOL

1) Reading Plugs: You can't run the engine under load, take your foot off the gas, idle around a bit and then look at your plugs - they will almost always be sooty if you do this. You need to run the engine under load, shut it off, push the clutch in (so you're not washing down the plugs) and then check the plugs. This will give you a much better coloring . . . though I will say, that it is much harder to read plugs with todays fuels, then in the 'old days'.

2) Carb: What rating is your power valve? You should check your vacuum at idle (below the blower) and an approximate PV number is to take the vacuum and divide it by 2. My guess, about a 5.5 - 6.5 or so would work. Also, the place you pull your 'boost referencing' from is below the blower (kind of the whole point).

3) Carb Size: Given that you're running a stock cubic inch engine, with no real internal mods, I believe you've got a LOT more carb than that engine can use. With an over-sized carb, you can usually gradually run the engine up, but if you rapidly open the throttles, then the vacuum drops too far/fast and the volume of air isn't there to keep the air velocity up to correctly atomize the fuel. It will tend to bog really badly, until the RPMs creep back up. I truly believe you'd be much better off with a 390 Holley.

4) Ignition: Charlie knows how to build an ignition and given your boost levels and RPM, it should work just fine (and it sounds like you have the advance curve and max-advance setup about right). Couple questions:

a) What amount of initial timing are you running?
b) What are the total degrees of distributor advance (mechanical).
c) Your number of 20 degrees - was that TOTAL advance (both of the above).
d) Given your low boost levels, I think that 20 degrees won't hurt you. If you get to higher boost levels (like 6 lbs), you'll probably need to take a couple degrees back out.

4) O2 Sensor: Did you fix your exhaust as what type of readings are you seeing as you gently roll the throttle and when you rapidly open it?

Keep the information coming!

D

jrvariel48 · 07-11-2017, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Joe the A/F reading your seeing should be used as a reference only. Since you see soot on the plugs that tells me its still to fat with gas. Im thinking if you lean it out a bit the plugs should improve in color also since your using NGK the B-6L is a cold plug you can try the B-4L that will also help since its the hotter plug. Converting to Pertronix I would go with the standard Ignitor which is the 1 that will work fine for your combination also use the correct coil and the correct plug wires so it all works correctly.
Ron

Thank you Ron. What's your thoughts on a 390 carb? Listening to B&S and others, has me thinking about my next step. Can the 600 be jetted down enough to be effective or am I beating a dead horse?

jrvariel48 · 07-11-2017, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Okay - might as well jump in again . . . this is a regular "tuning party"! LOL

1) Reading Plugs: You can't run the engine under load, take your foot off the gas, idle around a bit and then look at your plugs - they will almost always be sooty if you do this. You need to run the engine under load, shut it off, push the clutch in (so you're not washing down the plugs) and then check the plugs. This will give you a much better coloring . . . though I will say, that it is much harder to read plugs with todays fuels, then in the 'old days'.

2) Carb: What rating is your power valve? You should check your vacuum at idle (below the blower) and an approximate PV number is to take the vacuum and divide it by 2. My guess, about a 5.5 - 6.5 or so would work. Also, the place you pull your 'boost referencing' from is below the blower (kind of the whole point).

3) Carb Size: Given that you're running a stock cubic inch engine, with no real internal mods, I believe you've got a LOT more carb than that engine can use. With an over-sized carb, you can usually gradually run the engine up, but if you rapidly open the throttles, then the vacuum drops too far/fast and the volume of air isn't there to keep the air velocity up to correctly atomize the fuel. It will tend to bog really badly, until the RPMs creep back up. I truly believe you'd be much better off with a 390 Holley.

4) Ignition: Charlie knows how to build an ignition and given your boost levels and RPM, it should work just fine (and it sounds like you have the advance curve and max-advance setup about right). Couple questions:

a) What amount of initial timing are you running?
b) What are the total degrees of distributor advance (mechanical).
c) Your number of 20 degrees - was that TOTAL advance (both of the above).
d) Given your low boost levels, I think that 20 degrees won't hurt you. If you get to higher boost levels (like 6 lbs), you'll probably need to take a couple degrees back out.

4) O2 Sensor: Did you fix your exhaust as what type of readings are you seeing as you gently roll the throttle and when you rapidly open it?

Keep the information coming!

D

Thanks for responding!
Reading plugs:
That's the way we do it with bikes. We call it throttle chopping. I can check that this weekend if it don't rain!
Carb:
My power vale is a 4.5. Primary jets-68. Secondary jet plate-69. I'll check the vac this weekend. Right now my gauge is coming from the carb spacer between the carb and the blower. Yes boost ref. is being pulled from under the blower.
Carb size:
Understood. I'm not familiar with the 390 at all. Would I be looking for a new unit or rebuilt? Anyone on the barn?
Ignition:
Charlie has been extremely helpful AND patient through the whole process!!! I'm sure he has better things to do than answer my silly questions!
Questions:
a) 12 degrees
b) 8 degrees
c) yes
d) ok
O2 sensor:
I have not been to the shop yet. I've been working 14 hours days most of the week. Killing me!
I'll also try that this weekend. I tried to Gopro a video last week bit it came out bad.

Thank you everyone for taking time to help!!It's much appreciated!
Joe

Ronnieroadster · 07-11-2017, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Thank you Ron. What's your thoughts on a 390 carb? Listening to B&S and others, has me thinking about my next step. Can the 600 be jetted down enough to be effective or am I beating a dead horse?

Joe my experience with the 390 has shown me a number of times on cars I have worked on with that small carb its to small for most flathead applications and in my opinion yours included. I would jet the 600 down a bit and work on the Pertronix and go to the hotter NGK plug. Also the latest issue of Hot Rod magazine has an excellent article about ignition timing its good reading.
Ron

jrvariel48 · 07-11-2017, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Joe my experience with the 390 has shown me a number of times on cars I have worked on with that small carb its to small for most flathead applications and in my opinion yours included. I would jet the 600 down a bit and work on the Pertronix and go to the hotter NGK plug. Also the latest issue of Hot Rod magazine has an excellent article about ignition timing its good reading.
Ron

Sounds like a cheaper alternative for sure! I'll check out the article!
A coworker of mine used to tune top fuel cars and told me to try leaving the window open partially on the distributor because sometimes they could get pressurized and that could cause the spark scatter?? Did you ever hear of anything like that? I mean, it doesn't hurt to try it, lol!!

Should I jet down the secondaries also?
Thanks, Joe

Ronnieroadster · 07-11-2017, 08:40 PM

Joe the secondary's being a metering plate would be more of a challenge to go smaller I would imagine plates with smaller holes would be available. But for now I would leave that alone on your carb.
When I ran my 671 GMC blower I used two Holley 600 carbs on top of the blower same carb you have. The blower was on top of my 258 cube flathead which I drove on the street for a very long time I left the metering plates in the carbs. When I started using the set up in my race car I converted the secondary's to jets by using Quick Fuel Technology conversion plate. Doing that I was able to run 76 jets in the secondary and 72 primary's. That little 258 flahtead last year went 179 MPH in my rear engine modified roadster with a little work a small cube flathead will make big power. The spark scatter idea might be valid especially with a high output ignition its worth a try leaving the door open a bit.
Ron

Bored&Stroked · 07-12-2017, 07:21 PM

Hey - why not put some additional tuning into the 600 and see if you can make it work - definitely worth a try (you already have the carb). If that doesn't work and you still have the same problem, then it is either NOT the carb . . . or maybe try another carb. It is always a process of problem identification along with some trial and error. Ronnie has you covered on the 600 - he's ran them a lot and I hope it works out for yah! Best of luck.

jrvariel48 · 07-13-2017, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Hey - why not put some additional tuning into the 600 and see if you can make it work - definitely worth a try (you already have the carb). If that doesn't work and you still have the same problem, then it is either NOT the carb . . . or maybe try another carb. It is always a process of problem identification along with some trial and error. Ronnie has you covered on the 600 - he's ran them a lot and I hope it works out for yah! Best of luck.

Thanks B&S! I don't know if you read my question about putting a hole in the distributor cap a couple of posts back, but I'm going to try that first. Then on to the carb and ignition. I appreciate your responses, thank you, Joe

jrvariel48 · 07-15-2017, 10:19 AM

Doing a little tinkering today. I installed the NGK B-4L with a .025 gap today and removed the window from the distributor. When I reached about 3000 rpm there was no backfiring this time, it just felt under powered. I also noticed my AF meter lean out off the chart, but I still haven't removed the flex pipe so I don't know if that's a factor yet. I'm going to try a little longer cruise so I can get some video of the AF meter

Bored&Stroked · 07-15-2017, 10:46 AM

You cannot trust the AFR meter if you don't have a correctly installed and sealed O2 sensor in the exhaust system. It should be at least 18" back from the third (rear) exhaust port, should be installed at an angle (to keep water off of it) and there needs to be enough pipe AFTER it to not let oxygen from the outside mess with the readings. There cannot be any leaks in the system before the O2 sensor - or you'll get too lean of readings.

07-09-2017, 11:35 AM	#61
jrvariel48 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: New Jersey Posts: 1,425	Re: Vacuum signal I checked the condenser, plugs and wires and pushed the advance up to 20 degrees it's all in around 1900+ rpm. I can't get it any higher with the springs I have. I couldn't check the dwell because my meter decided not to work today. I removed the blower belt and went for a ride. It ran rough like a couple of cylinders weren't firing. It smelled very rich, but I don't know if that has anything to do with it.

07-09-2017, 01:37 PM	#62
jrvariel48 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: New Jersey Posts: 1,425	Re: Vacuum signal Update. I had a fouled plug. Maybe a hotter or cooler plug? Still getting the popping sound at about 3500 rpm. If I don't mash the pedal to the floor it runs real nice with about 2 pounds of boost and secondaries kicking in. It seems to happen at WOT around 3500 rpm Thanks

07-09-2017, 10:37 PM	#64
Pete F Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Bloomfield,ny Posts: 130	Re: Vacuum signal So black and sooty plugs will stop the engine from reving and cause all kinds of misfiring . So here are some things can cause that condition . 1 over jetted carbs 2 float level 3 or retarted timing I'd go with the timing first And put the blower belt back on you are not running any crazy boost so dio the problem with it set up the way you are going to run it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

07-09-2017, 10:41 PM	#65
Pete F Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Bloomfield,ny Posts: 130	Re: Vacuum signal Hey one last thing What plugs are in the engine and please don't tell me platinum plugs because with that ignition you don't have enough spark to run them. And what gap are you running I run .028-.032 with a blower or turbo engine. Keep us posted Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

07-10-2017, 08:04 AM	#68
Pete F Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Bloomfield,ny Posts: 130	Re: Vacuum signal I just read back and saw you have a 600 Holley on this engine . Since parts are readily available for a 600 I would see what the idle vacuum is and check the power valve for the proper setting of a blown diaphragm because if you don't have a blow back valve in the base of that carb one backfire will have blown the valve and that will cause the black plugs for sure. And if that engine is stock I would be looking for 390 four barrel. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

07-10-2017, 11:17 AM	#69
jrvariel48 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: New Jersey Posts: 1,425	Re: Vacuum signal The power valve is boost referenced, I'll have to check it. The carb came with the blower and intake and its what they recommend for this set up

07-10-2017, 07:26 PM	#71
Bored&Stroked Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 5,067	Re: Vacuum signal Okay - might as well jump in again . . . this is a regular "tuning party"! LOL 1) Reading Plugs: You can't run the engine under load, take your foot off the gas, idle around a bit and then look at your plugs - they will almost always be sooty if you do this. You need to run the engine under load, shut it off, push the clutch in (so you're not washing down the plugs) and then check the plugs. This will give you a much better coloring . . . though I will say, that it is much harder to read plugs with todays fuels, then in the 'old days'. 2) Carb: What rating is your power valve? You should check your vacuum at idle (below the blower) and an approximate PV number is to take the vacuum and divide it by 2. My guess, about a 5.5 - 6.5 or so would work. Also, the place you pull your 'boost referencing' from is below the blower (kind of the whole point). 3) Carb Size: Given that you're running a stock cubic inch engine, with no real internal mods, I believe you've got a LOT more carb than that engine can use. With an over-sized carb, you can usually gradually run the engine up, but if you rapidly open the throttles, then the vacuum drops too far/fast and the volume of air isn't there to keep the air velocity up to correctly atomize the fuel. It will tend to bog really badly, until the RPMs creep back up. I truly believe you'd be much better off with a 390 Holley. 4) Ignition: Charlie knows how to build an ignition and given your boost levels and RPM, it should work just fine (and it sounds like you have the advance curve and max-advance setup about right). Couple questions: a) What amount of initial timing are you running? b) What are the total degrees of distributor advance (mechanical). c) Your number of 20 degrees - was that TOTAL advance (both of the above). d) Given your low boost levels, I think that 20 degrees won't hurt you. If you get to higher boost levels (like 6 lbs), you'll probably need to take a couple degrees back out. 4) O2 Sensor: Did you fix your exhaust as what type of readings are you seeing as you gently roll the throttle and when you rapidly open it? Keep the information coming! D Last edited by Bored&Stroked; 07-10-2017 at 07:41 PM.

07-11-2017, 08:40 PM	#76
Ronnieroadster Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: East Coast in CT Posts: 1,529	Re: Vacuum signal Joe the secondary's being a metering plate would be more of a challenge to go smaller I would imagine plates with smaller holes would be available. But for now I would leave that alone on your carb. When I ran my 671 GMC blower I used two Holley 600 carbs on top of the blower same carb you have. The blower was on top of my 258 cube flathead which I drove on the street for a very long time I left the metering plates in the carbs. When I started using the set up in my race car I converted the secondary's to jets by using Quick Fuel Technology conversion plate. Doing that I was able to run 76 jets in the secondary and 72 primary's. That little 258 flahtead last year went 179 MPH in my rear engine modified roadster with a little work a small cube flathead will make big power. The spark scatter idea might be valid especially with a high output ignition its worth a try leaving the door open a bit. Ron

07-12-2017, 07:21 PM	#77
Bored&Stroked Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 5,067	Re: Vacuum signal Hey - why not put some additional tuning into the 600 and see if you can make it work - definitely worth a try (you already have the carb). If that doesn't work and you still have the same problem, then it is either NOT the carb . . . or maybe try another carb. It is always a process of problem identification along with some trial and error. Ronnie has you covered on the 600 - he's ran them a lot and I hope it works out for yah! Best of luck.

07-15-2017, 10:19 AM	#79
jrvariel48 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: New Jersey Posts: 1,425	Re: Vacuum signal Doing a little tinkering today. I installed the NGK B-4L with a .025 gap today and removed the window from the distributor. When I reached about 3000 rpm there was no backfiring this time, it just felt under powered. I also noticed my AF meter lean out off the chart, but I still haven't removed the flex pipe so I don't know if that's a factor yet. I'm going to try a little longer cruise so I can get some video of the AF meter

07-15-2017, 10:46 AM	#80
Bored&Stroked Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 5,067	Re: Vacuum signal You cannot trust the AFR meter if you don't have a correctly installed and sealed O2 sensor in the exhaust system. It should be at least 18" back from the third (rear) exhaust port, should be installed at an angle (to keep water off of it) and there needs to be enough pipe AFTER it to not let oxygen from the outside mess with the readings. There cannot be any leaks in the system before the O2 sensor - or you'll get too lean of readings.