New A Engine from Burtz

[Brother Hesekiel]

If I could get one for $10K, I would buy it in a heartbeat!
Try $19,218.26:

http://www.modelaparts.net/engine%20...m/donovan.html

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by Brother Hesekiel

If I could get one for $10K, I would buy it in a heartbeat!
Try $19,218.26:

http://www.modelaparts.net/engine%20...m/donovan.html

Looks like the price jumped a lot since I inquired a decade ago. ;-)

[wensum]

Whilst I have the greatest admiration for the skills involved in producing these components, I am at a loss to understand why someone would want a motor for a Model A that only superficially resembles an original block?
If you want to go faster, surely the challenge is to improve the original components and make it stay together?
The ability to supply replacment blocks is probably necessary and we are incredibly lucky that the skills and enthusiasm exist to produce these castings, but when you modify it to fit a 5 main bearing crankshaft, is it still a Model A?
I don't want to appear a killjoy, and I can hardly be accused of being an originality nut when you see my modifed A, but I see the challenge as improving original components.(And maybe, if there are no blocks left for rebuilding, then a new replacement block will be heaven sent?)

[Chris Haynes]

wensum,
If we need to explain it to you, you will never understand.
From the outside the block will look exactly like a genuine Ford block. On the inside it will be a stronger more modern engine. Capable of higher compression and higher revolutions. Also smoother running.
A stronger counter balanced crank and larger insert bearings means longer engine life.
If you bolted all the original Model A components on it no one would know the difference.

[wensum]

Hi Chris, I do understand your point of view and in fact run a replica motor in My 1928 Lancia which I believe cost $60,000 and it has improvements such as shell bearings, but the justification is that the original cast alloy crankcases are all so corroded that a new crankcase is the only was to keep these cars on the road.
However in principle the motor is as per the original.
Surely a Model A motor whether it has a new block or original block can be made to perform and be reliable with minor improvements without substantially modifying it for a 5 bearing crankshaft.
And when it comes to the crunch, there can't be many owners actually putting high mileages on their cars anyway?
Cheers,
Keith

[Mike V. Florida]

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Originally Posted by wensum

Hi Chris, I do understand your point of view and in fact run a replica motor in My 1928 Lancia which I believe cost $60,000 and it has improvements such as shell bearings, but the justification is that the original cast alloy crankcases are all so corroded that a new crankcase is the only was to keep these cars on the road.
However in principle the motor is as per the original.
Surely a Model A motor whether it has a new block or original block can be made to perform and be reliable with minor improvements without substantially modifying it for a 5 bearing crankshaft.
And when it comes to the crunch, there can't be many owners actually putting high mileages on their cars anyway?
Cheers,
Keith

Now they will have comfort in knowing they can drive many miles.

[john in illinois]

This is a good time for model A folks. Now we will have a choice of 2 new engines. Tod Buttermore has completed a casting and is now in production.
I understand Snyders will be selling the blocks. I am not sure how complete an engine Tod will make.

John

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by john in illinois

This is a good time for model A folks. Now we will have a choice of 2 new engines. Tod Buttermore has completed a casting and is now in production.
I understand Snyders will be selling the blocks. I am not sure how complete an engine Tod will make.

John

Yup, life IS good for us as you state !
However, the specific subject here is the BURTZ 5 main block. Tod will make the stock version...inside/outside...until he decides to do his version of what I call his 5x5 (crank and cam). Whereas the Burtz product will , as shown, be 5 main right out of the production line (not sure of 5 cam , as can not remember now). As for guys in doubt and standing in line from afar...good luck with that ! There are many believers/supports from the start already 'in line' for the inline four with 5 mains.
Thanks for posting the pictures of the eye candy...gets the fire stoked again,eh !! Hope I can also use the 'extra' Burtz rear seal that I have stowed with other gathered parts !

[Brother Hesekiel]

The Model A engine has 3.3 liters putting out 40 horses. The largest 4-cylinder engine of modern times was/is in the Porsche 944S2, has 3.0 liters, and puts out 208 horsepower in highly detuned street tune, meeting the strongest emission standards on the planet. Both are inline-4 engines.

Now let's ignore that the Model A engine is 10% larger than the Porsche engine, and let's ignore that the Porsche engine is an OHC design and fuel injected. Just imagine in your head that these two engines are somewhat siblings.

Another example: the Volvo PV544 engine of 1961 (and earlier) has 1.6 liters, and puts out 90 horsepower. It has won several times the Rally Kenya, going through hell, running near redline day after day after day. The engine has a 3-main crank, and only in 1962 they introduced the B18 engine, which has 5 mains, but makes the same 90 horsepower. Those engines are pushrod engines.

I own a Porsche 944 and I own a Volvo PV544 Sport, so I know how they run and behave.

If a Volvo in 1956 could get 90hp out of 1.6 liters with a 3-crank bearings, something tells me that while a 5-bearing crankshaft is certainly better and more durable, it's not the issue. It also doesn't explain why rebuilding a stock engine costs $5K and getting the horsepower from 40 to 80 costs another $4K.

At night, when dreaming, I sometimes wondered what modern engine could replace the stock Model A engine. Fact is, there's none. The Pinto that was used in the Shay has only 2.0 and 2.3 liters, but it doesn't sound like an A, because it revs differently. My Model A is almost like my Cummins-powered pickup, that revs to 2,200 rpm, and that's it. Raw power and torque from idle up, just like the Model A engine.

Looks like I'm drifting away here. What I'm trying to say is this: I believe that a well-built stock block A engine, fully balanced, with top quality crankshaft, lighter pistons, 6.9-or-so compression, better flowing intakes and carburetor, should make 80 hp without crank issues. We're talking 80 hp here, not 180.

Sure, if that 5-crank block costs $1,200 or so, it's probably the best basis for building a really great touring engine, but if it costs $3,500, I don't know how many people would go for it.

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by wensum

And when it comes to the crunch, there can't be many owners actually putting high mileages on their cars anyway?
Cheers,
Keith

Keith,
Mine was my daily driver for years and will be again after the restoration is finished. Not all Model A's are garage queens.

[stude3]

You sound real dense actually

[johnneilson]

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

You forgot to mention the limited availabliity of the Donavan and the $10,000.00 price.

I think this is backwards, plenty of Donovan D Models available, limited customers with $19,000.

Seriously, this is good news, Terry has been working on this for a number of years. Another Gentleman is also developing a 5 main block, available in Iron and Alum.

From someone who has built a few 5 main girdle motors for racing, I can tell you this is great to have a block with internal webs and proper bolt spacing.
The pictures look good and it appears that even the head stud bosses look better than Henry's.

I wish all involved the Very Best in these endeavors, John

[slammin]

Originally Posted by stude3

You sound real dense actually

Huh??? Interesting comment on a 3 year old thread!

[Bob Bidonde]

My Model B engine with a stock Model A Zenith carburetor will cruise at 60 mph and run to 70+.

[Licensed to kill]

Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

My Model B engine with a stock Model A Zenith carburetor will cruise at 60 mph and run to 70+.

Are you running 3.54 or 3.78 gears?.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

If I spent $19,000.00 (which I don't have) on an engine, SURELY my HEART would STOP!!!
Bill Daid

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by Brother Hesekiel

...allows me to cruise at 75mph on the freeway...

At 75 mph you would really be flying. That is to say the Model A front fenders act like airplane wings and tend to lift the front end at that speed. Not quite off of the pavement yet but it will feel like power steering. A side wind from a passing semi or a canyon that crosses the road will make you change lanes. Without a lot of changes (lowering, heavy engine etc) 55 mph is about tops for me for sustained driving.

Charlie Stephens

[Tom Wesenberg]

I agree with Charlie, and even in a modern car I think 55 is an ideal speed for comfort and fuel economy. It also gives you a lot more safety as far as having to stop suddenly or make a quick move to avoid a deer, etc. All these fools that want to drive 70 to 80 are nuts. So you save a few minutes over a long trip, but at what costs?

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by stude3

You sound real dense actually

Okay stude3, WHO sounded "real dense actually " 3 years ago??

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

At 75 mph you would really be flying. That is to say the Model A front fenders act like airplane wings and tend to lift the front end at that speed. Not quite off of the pavement yet but it will feel like power steering. A side wind from a passing semi or a canyon that crosses the road will make you change lanes. Without a lot of changes (lowering, heavy engine etc) 55 mph is about tops for me for sustained driving.

Charlie Stephens

In your profile you admit you don't know too much about cars so you should not make uninformed statements lke the above. Being an aerospace engineer you should be able to look at a model A fender and tell it would have down force, not lift.
I have had full fendered model A's that I ran at Bonneville and turned over 130 mph. They were extremely stable,
even with 10 mph cross winds.
My current 1930 2 door will do 150+.
I can also drive it in parades.
If anyone is interested, they can see it in the classified section of Rodding Roundtable.