The Ford Barn

AnthonyG · 02-15-2018, 02:18 PM

I'm am in the process of switching my '35 to juice brakes. I have ordered the from Early V8 Garage his master cylinder & e-brake conversion brackets which U use a 1940 or newer master and bolts to existing mounting features plus 1 extra frame hole. I want to use the Bendix style Lincoln's on the rear & disc conversion on front ( all from speedway).
QUESTION:- Will the 1940 single stage master cylinder be enough to power both the rear Bendix's and the front disc's? Will the system need anything else for good braking? Wondering if enough pedal stroke & stopping ability?

Ggmac · 02-15-2018, 02:55 PM

I think you'll need at least a residual valve for the front . There going to be higher than the Master . I've done a few disc conversions and always used a master from a 70 ish Ford Mustang with disc . This will require another adapter to go from 3 bolt to 2 bolt .

AnthonyG · 02-15-2018, 03:11 PM

I believe the problem with that mod is the '70's ford mustang is a dual master cylinder set up. For the early V8 Garage conversion to fit the '35 mounting features and fit in the stock space I need to use the '40 to '48 Master Cyl. Trying to use with minimal modification.

Ggmac · 02-15-2018, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnthonyG

I believe the problem with that mod is the '70's ford mustang is a dual master cylinder set up. For the early V8 Garage conversion to fit the '35 mounting features and fit in the stock space I need to use the '40 to '48 Master Cyl. Trying to use with minimal modification.

You will not be happy . It still requires a residual valve and proportional valve

wingski · 02-15-2018, 03:24 PM

Nomad, you are not going to be satisfied with the single chamber master cylinder when runnining front disc brakes. Those old naster cylinders were adequate for the old four wheel drum brakes but not for modern discs. I guarntee you that you will be disatisfied with the old-type master cylinder. Do yourself a favor and anyone who rides with you, use a modern two chamber master cylinder.

Mike

Mart · 02-15-2018, 03:31 PM

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If you are more or less tied in to using the stock early Ford Master cylinder, you might do better to fit the Bendix brakes on the front, and use 40 style on the back. This setup has been mentioned as a good combination by Barners before.

Mart.

V8COOPMAN · 02-15-2018, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mart

If you are more or less tied in to using the stock early Ford Master cylinder, you might do better to fit the Bendix brakes on the front, and use 40 style on the back. This setup has been mentioned as a good combination by Barners before.

Mart.

Anthony....Mart is spot-on suggesting the MT-type Bendix brakes in the front, a!long with the '40-'48 Ford Lockheed brakes in the rear. That combination works extremely well together, and the braking quality is tremendously improved over stock. This combination also does away with the problems encountered when trying to match fluid volume and pressure requirements of disc brake calipers with a stock diameter Master Cylinder. DD

AnthonyG · 02-15-2018, 05:12 PM

DD, or anyone, I've been reading/commenting on thread Flathead Ted's been commenting on ( https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238338 ) possibly creating a conversion of the juice Lockheed brakes to a Bendix style operation similar to what he does with the energizer kit for the mechanical. That sounds like a great idea. have you seen anything on it?

AnthonyG · 02-15-2018, 05:16 PM

Understood J, was hoping to modify setup with portioning valve to fronts to accommodate. If I can't I'll go with the Lincoln Bendix on front and Lockheed on rear as Mart suggested. Just thought while doing I'd make as technically up to date as possible.

philipswanson · 02-20-2018, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mart

If you are more or less tied in to using the stock early Ford Master cylinder, you might do better to fit the Bendix brakes on the front, and use 40 style on the back. This setup has been mentioned as a good combination by Barners before.

Mart.

Strongly agree. This is what I did on my 40 and I would match my stopping power with any disc brake mod. Had rears arced and new wheel cylinders and running the Speedway Bendix set up on the front. Great set up.

AnthonyG · 02-15-2018, 03:32 PM

Mike, have you heard of anyone using the stock master cylinder in the tight local stock area as a slave to a remote mounted power booster/dual cylinder setup mounted in another location. Using the stock rod plunger piston stock cylinder to feed the remote booster?

AnthonyG · 02-15-2018, 03:35 PM

Mart, I have considered that and will go that route if I have too. But would really like the disc setup in the front if I can figure something out.
Thx

Charlie Stephens · 02-15-2018, 05:06 PM

Are you planning on running the original wire wheels? If so, be sure to check their fit on the disc brakes. Another thing is that the disc brakes will throw a lot of dust on the wire wheels. What is the reason you want to run discs?

Charlie Stephens

JSeery · 02-15-2018, 05:10 PM

Not really sure why you would want disc brakes on the front when it is a setup that will not provide adequate stopping. Disc require increased pressure that is not well suited to this type of installation. I would check with Early V8, I am fairly sure they will advise against it. With the brackets and master cylinder you are wanting to use you need the drum brakes on the front. If you are wanting the disc brakes you will need a different type of master cylinder installation.

V8COOPMAN · 02-15-2018, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSeery

Not really sure why you would want disc brakes on the front when it is a setup that will not provide adequate stopping. Disc require increased pressure that is not well suited to this type of installation. I would check with Early V8, I am fairly sure they will advise against it. With the brackets and master cylinder you are wanting to use you need the drum brakes on the front. If you are wanting the disc brakes you will need a different type of master cylinder installation.

Anthony.....As JSeery points out, discs require very high pressures to function properly AND to do it with a reasonably light PEDAL pressure. Proper pressures can only be accomplished by using vacuum boosters (certainly not a good option when space is at a premium), or by adjusting the diameter of the MASTER CYLINDER BORE that is feeding the bores of your chosen calipers. You also cannot forget the stroke on the M/C, making sure that caliper VOLUME requirements are also met.

I have no idea about what Flathead Ted may be concocting. But be assured that making master cylinders work CORRECTLY with wheel cylinders or calipers involves serious matching of cylinder BORE on BOTH pieces to function comfortably, as well as PROPERLY. Adjusting bore diameter on either type cylinder in your system will change the operating PEDAL pressure requirements, not to mention pedal STROKE requirements. DD

JSeery · 02-15-2018, 05:20 PM

I think the problem will be that the disc brakes (and I use them on a lot of applications, so I'm not anti-disc brakes) have requirements to work properly that do not lead themselves to the early single master cylinders.

AnthonyG · 02-15-2018, 05:41 PM

J, how much is involved to modify '35 to accept the dual cylinder master?
#2 Ggmac suggests '70's mustang type? I see Speedway has a couple. One replaces clutch linkage with hydraulics too?

Ggmac · 02-15-2018, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnthonyG

J, how much is involved to modify '35 to accept the dual cylinder master?
#2 Ggmac suggests '70's mustang type? I see Speedway has a couple. One replaces clutch linkage with hydraulics too?

Be careful , read all the speedway stuff . It's a great company but I think the pedal master assembly is for an aftermarket frame . There's an adapter made to convert the 3 bolt orig Master to the 2 bolt . The speedway master cyl usually has the residual valves built in .

JSeery · 02-15-2018, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnthonyG

J, how much is involved to modify '35 to accept the dual cylinder master?

I like to use a bell-crank setup with a rod from the original brake pedal to a bell-crank then to the master cylinder. Problem is that is not an off the shelf type of setup you can just purchase. You would most likely have to custom build it. This is an example of that type of setup (not my photo). This is obviously not a dual master cylinder, but there should be room for one. Brackets could be made bolt-in vs weld.

john in illinois · 02-15-2018, 06:38 PM

I had bendix front brakes and ford rear with Ford single master cylinder. The pedal effort was too much. Hard to get a good stop. The early Ford master cylinder has a larger than 1 inch bore.

I put the Mustang 1 inch bore master cylinder on and it was like power brakes.

I would suggest that you contact Richard at early v8 about this. He could also advise you on the pedal
travel.

John

02-15-2018, 02:18 PM	#1
AnthonyG Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Pa. Posts: 2,174	Switching to juice brake question I'm am in the process of switching my '35 to juice brakes. I have ordered the from Early V8 Garage his master cylinder & e-brake conversion brackets which U use a 1940 or newer master and bolts to existing mounting features plus 1 extra frame hole. I want to use the Bendix style Lincoln's on the rear & disc conversion on front ( all from speedway). QUESTION:- Will the 1940 single stage master cylinder be enough to power both the rear Bendix's and the front disc's? Will the system need anything else for good braking? Wondering if enough pedal stroke & stopping ability? __________________ Nomad

02-15-2018, 03:11 PM	#3
AnthonyG Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Pa. Posts: 2,174	Re: Switching to juice brake question I believe the problem with that mod is the '70's ford mustang is a dual master cylinder set up. For the early V8 Garage conversion to fit the '35 mounting features and fit in the stock space I need to use the '40 to '48 Master Cyl. Trying to use with minimal modification. __________________ Nomad

02-15-2018, 03:24 PM	#5
wingski Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Cave Junction, Oregon Posts: 432	Re: Switching to juice brake question Nomad, you are not going to be satisfied with the single chamber master cylinder when runnining front disc brakes. Those old naster cylinders were adequate for the old four wheel drum brakes but not for modern discs. I guarntee you that you will be disatisfied with the old-type master cylinder. Do yourself a favor and anyone who rides with you, use a modern two chamber master cylinder. Mike

02-15-2018, 03:31 PM	#6
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,755	Re: Switching to juice brake question Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) If you are more or less tied in to using the stock early Ford Master cylinder, you might do better to fit the Bendix brakes on the front, and use 40 style on the back. This setup has been mentioned as a good combination by Barners before. Mart.

02-15-2018, 05:12 PM	#8
AnthonyG Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Pa. Posts: 2,174	Re: Switching to juice brake question DD, or anyone, I've been reading/commenting on thread Flathead Ted's been commenting on ( https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238338 ) possibly creating a conversion of the juice Lockheed brakes to a Bendix style operation similar to what he does with the energizer kit for the mechanical. That sounds like a great idea. have you seen anything on it? __________________ Nomad

02-15-2018, 02:55 PM	#2
Ggmac Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Lake worth Florida Posts: 1,101	Re: Switching to juice brake question I think you'll need at least a residual valve for the front . There going to be higher than the Master . I've done a few disc conversions and always used a master from a 70 ish Ford Mustang with disc . This will require another adapter to go from 3 bolt to 2 bolt .

02-15-2018, 05:16 PM	#9
AnthonyG Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Pa. Posts: 2,174	Re: Switching to juice brake question Understood J, was hoping to modify setup with portioning valve to fronts to accommodate. If I can't I'll go with the Lincoln Bendix on front and Lockheed on rear as Mart suggested. Just thought while doing I'd make as technically up to date as possible. __________________ Nomad

02-15-2018, 03:32 PM	#11
AnthonyG Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Pa. Posts: 2,174	Re: Switching to juice brake question Mike, have you heard of anyone using the stock master cylinder in the tight local stock area as a slave to a remote mounted power booster/dual cylinder setup mounted in another location. Using the stock rod plunger piston stock cylinder to feed the remote booster? __________________ Nomad

02-15-2018, 03:35 PM	#12
AnthonyG Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Pa. Posts: 2,174	Re: Switching to juice brake question Mart, I have considered that and will go that route if I have too. But would really like the disc setup in the front if I can figure something out. Thx __________________ Nomad

02-15-2018, 05:06 PM	#13
Charlie Stephens Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern California Posts: 7,033	Re: Switching to juice brake question Are you planning on running the original wire wheels? If so, be sure to check their fit on the disc brakes. Another thing is that the disc brakes will throw a lot of dust on the wire wheels. What is the reason you want to run discs? Charlie Stephens

02-15-2018, 05:10 PM	#14
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Switching to juice brake question Not really sure why you would want disc brakes on the front when it is a setup that will not provide adequate stopping. Disc require increased pressure that is not well suited to this type of installation. I would check with Early V8, I am fairly sure they will advise against it. With the brackets and master cylinder you are wanting to use you need the drum brakes on the front. If you are wanting the disc brakes you will need a different type of master cylinder installation.

02-15-2018, 05:20 PM	#16
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Switching to juice brake question I think the problem will be that the disc brakes (and I use them on a lot of applications, so I'm not anti-disc brakes) have requirements to work properly that do not lead themselves to the early single master cylinders.

02-15-2018, 05:41 PM	#17
AnthonyG Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Pa. Posts: 2,174	Re: Switching to juice brake question J, how much is involved to modify '35 to accept the dual cylinder master? #2 Ggmac suggests '70's mustang type? I see Speedway has a couple. One replaces clutch linkage with hydraulics too? __________________ Nomad

02-15-2018, 06:38 PM	#20
john in illinois Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Illinois Posts: 2,184	Re: Switching to juice brake question I had bendix front brakes and ford rear with Ford single master cylinder. The pedal effort was too much. Hard to get a good stop. The early Ford master cylinder has a larger than 1 inch bore. I put the Mustang 1 inch bore master cylinder on and it was like power brakes. I would suggest that you contact Richard at early v8 about this. He could also advise you on the pedal travel. John Last edited by john in illinois; 02-15-2018 at 06:45 PM.