Need Help----Trying to fire the new Roadster

[bogdonj]

Well most of you know that we came into another car where we live...1930 Ford Roadster.. The engine has not been ran for 5 years.. we went ahead and cleaned everything up but are stuck at a problem. We seem to have electricity to the cut out, black box, dist but when we try and get a spark out of the high tension wire against the head nut we have no luck????... seems the starter wants to turn the engine over slower than we are use too.. could this have any effect on why we don't have a spark coming from the high tension?

We switched out the coil for one in the 31 Tudor but only have the same results?????

any help would be great!!!


Justin

[ford1]

it can draw an excessive amount of power from the battery if you dont have good connections, especially the grounds, start there, you can also take the dist cap off, make sure the points are closed, turn key on, hold one spark plug wire close to the head and use a screw driver to open and close the points, you should get a spark if every thing is wired right to the coil and dist, or you can use an extra 12 volt battery to power a modern induction timing lite, hook the battery leads to the 12v battery, the induction lead to the spark plug wire and open and close the points, if every thing is right the timing lite will flashtiming lites dont care how its hooked up as long as it has the right voltage

[Fred K-OR]

Did you check the point setting and make sure they are good, also check the timing, and while your at it check the pulgs for correct gap and clean. Good luck.

[bogdonj]

Originally Posted by Fred K-OR

Did you check the point setting and make sure they are good, also check the timing, and while your at it check the pulgs for correct gap and clean. Good luck.

point are set but haven't checked timing yet.... even if timing or plug gap was way off that wouldn't stop power to the high tension wire would it? I need to get power cracking out of the wire against the head nut....???????

[tdlmomowers]

Make sure that the points are not grounded when they are open. This happened to my Son-in Law's car and we found it with a multi-meter. The stationary point should read to ground all the time, but the movable point should only read to ground when the points are closed.

[Mitch//pa]

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even though the point gap is set file the contacts they get corroded from sitting. very common problem on all cars that have sat for extended periods. also get a simple 12 volt test light and make sure you have power at the points when open,, the moveable side that rides the dist cam

[Tom Wesenberg]

As Mitch said, I'd start by cleaning the points. You say you came into another car. Is this your first Model A? The engine doesn't have to crank very fast to start, as long as you have at least 4 to 5 volts at the coil, you should get fire at the plugs.

My bet is dirty points from setting.

[Steve Wastler]

Originally Posted by fordgarage

Is that possible? Bad connections don't transfer power, do they?

Sure they can, since current flows around a wire and not thru it. Especially with stranded wire, corrosion will cause resistance and increase the current draw but will only allow the current to trickle thru the connection.

[Steve Wastler]

Excessive resistance in any primary electrical system will certainly affect the secondary electrical system. In any vehicle that has sat for any lengthy time I always clean every connection physically possible before putting current thru the system. I have seen many times a standed wire that was corroded under the insulation, away from the connection, more with cloth covered wire, but can happen with any wire.

[Joe/Ct]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

As Mitch said, I'd start by cleaning the points. You say you came into another car. Is this your first Model A? The engine doesn't have to crank very fast to start, as long as you have at least 4 to 5 volts at the coil, you should get fire at the plugs.

My bet is dirty points from setting.

I recently had the same problem on our '28 roadster. I cleaned the points, the distributor, the cap and the rotor. Started right up.

[bogdonj]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

As Mitch said, I'd start by cleaning the points. You say you came into another car. Is this your first Model A? The engine doesn't have to crank very fast to start, as long as you have at least 4 to 5 volts at the coil, you should get fire at the plugs.

My bet is dirty points from setting.

No we have been around Model A's for awhile.. this is my second car... We cleaned up everything and still can't get power out of the high tension wire.... We checked all the connections for a volt meter and they all range around 6. We took the older dist out and replaced it with another one that we had. Still the same results... replaced all the wiring going to the panels and generator... still the same results... we noticed the amp meter moves abit but when you press the horn it shows a very small charge and not a decrease... We also installed a new ignition cable because the old one was brittle....

could this be cut out related or amp meter related?????




Thanks,

Justin

[bogdonj]

also we got power to the points and it also reads 6 Volts... broke the points and got a good spark out of it.

[Mike V. Florida]

Here is some general advice I give to the "My car won't start" question.

You need 5 things for an engine to run,

Fuel
Air
Compression
Spark
all happening at the right time and right quanity

Here is the general spark check list,


Some possibilities are:
1.Blown or defective fuse or fuse holder
2.Bad connections at ammeter, or ammeter itself (to find out put a jumper wire from one post of the terminal box to the other to take the ammeter out of the circuit temporarily)
3.Bad ignition switch and/or cable, or loose cable connection at switch.
4.Loose or broken wires at bottom of coil
5.Loose or broken wires inside terminal box
6.Loose, bare or broken pigtail wire under distributor plate, or wire grounding to plate or distributor body
7.Points not opening, or point arm grounding to cam due to worn rubbing block
8.Worn electrode in underside of distributor cap
9.Loose or broken high tension wire from coil to cap
10.Condenser burned out or grounding (some condensers are too long and can touch the distributor body inside)
11.Weak coil
12.Rotor not turning due to loose cam screw or bad timing gear
Ok now break out a volt meter (a light bulb can give false readings).
Start at the fuse block, you should have voltage on both sides of the fuse. If you only have voltage on one side, replace the fuse or fuse block.
Now with voltage on both sides of the fuse, move up to the junction box. There should be voltage at both terminals. If voltage is present only on one side the problem is at the ampmeter and you should Jumper the ampmeter for now.
You should have voltage on both sides of the coil. If not, remove the red wire on the coil and check again. If you now have voltage on both sides, you have a problem further on. If the voltage is still only in one side you have a bad coil.
Open the points with a piece of paper and remove the condenser. Turn the key on and you should have voltage at the points. Replace the condenser and you should still have voltage. If voltage is missing, remove the top plate and check for voltage on the bottom plate. Check is the connector from the ignition switch screwed in to far? Do you have voltage on the wire to the upper plate? Is this wire shorting to ground or broken? Are the point closing.
Let us know what you find.

[40 Deluxe]

High resistance will decrease current flow, not increase it. Thus, you only have a trickle of current, if any at all. Electricity does flow through a wire, not around it. Some experts say electrons only flow along the outer surface of a conductor but are still going through or aliong the wire. What's around the wire is a magnetic field which is only formed by current flowing through the wire. When the flow is interrupted (by a switch, broken wire or high resistance) current flow stops and the magnetic field disappears.
Sometimes you can get the proper voltage meter reading or a test light to glow and still have a bad connection. It is only letting a small amount of current to flow, enough for the light, but when more is needed, the connection opens. I've seen this a lot working on snow plow trucks that see a lot of salt. The salt gets in and corrodes a wire so all those lights on the back are dead, yet a test light will work fine.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

Sometimes you can get the proper voltage meter reading or a test light to glow and still have a bad connection. It is only letting a small amount of current to flow, enough for the light, but when more is needed, the connection opens. I've seen this a lot working on snow plow trucks that see a lot of salt. The salt gets in and corrodes a wire so all those lights on the back are dead, yet a test light will work fine.

Again going back to my aviation days, I remember a mechanic cursing up a storm while working on a wing tip light. I asked what was going on and he told me that the meter showed voltage at the socket, the bulb tested good but it would not light. I told him he had a bad splice somewhere in the wire. Sure enough he came up the the radio shop later and told be he found a bad repair of the wire in the wing.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by bogdonj

also we got power to the points and it also reads 6 Volts... broke the points and got a good spark out of it.

Do you mean you opened the points and got a good spark at the POINTS?

Or do you mean you got a good spark at the COIL WIRE?

[leakers]

Originally Posted by bogdonj

No we have been around Model A's for awhile.. this is my second car... We cleaned up everything and still can't get power out of the high tension wire.... We checked all the connections for a volt meter and they all range around 6. We took the older dist out and replaced it with another one that we had. Still the same results... replaced all the wiring going to the panels and generator... still the same results... we noticed the amp meter moves abit but when you press the horn it shows a very small charge and not a decrease... We also installed a new ignition cable because the old one was brittle....

could this be cut out related or amp meter related?????




Thanks,

Justin

Is the battery fitted correctly? If the ammeter reads charge when you switch something on chances are the battery is fitted wrong way around.

[bogdonj]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Do you mean you opened the points and got a good spark at the POINTS?

Or do you mean you got a good spark at the COIL WIRE?

Good spark out of the points.... My next step is to test the ampmeter... to over ride the ampmeter can I just alligator clip the 2 ends together for the time being?

Justin

[bogdonj]

Originally Posted by leakers

Is the battery fitted correctly? If the ammeter reads charge when you switch something on chances are the battery is fitted wrong way around.

yeah the battery is fitted properly and all the connections cleaned up... even the ground to the frame is all sanded down and exposed to bare metal.

[Tom Wesenberg]

To bypass the amp meter and the 2 short wires leading to it, just clip a jumper wire across the two studs or wing nuts that hold the terminal box cover on.

Then to check for generator output just connect a voltmeter, one lead to ground, and the other lead to the terminal box wing nut. You should read just over 6 volts with the engine off, and about 1/2 to 1 volt more running at fast idle.

[IrishHills]

Fast Check....with the points closed and ignition on, pull the coil wire out of cap, place wire close to ground, then open and close points with your thumb.... have fire?

[willobs]

The best quick test, The Amp Meter should jump towards - when cranking and the points fire.

[bogdonj]

awesome information guys! When I get home from work Im' going to try what is mentioned above.... I will let you guys know!

[bogdonj]

Ok we by passed the amp meter and still no spark coming from the high tension wire... I even cleaned the head bolt right up to make sure we get a good contact. Got 6 volts everywhere including the points.....I hooked up the tester and opened the points and it read 5.89 and snap the points and nice spark came. At this point it has to be something small. Did the coil test on it by putting the high tension wire into the dist and the other end against the head not and still nothing.

After trying this we noticed the starter acting really slow and it's completely dead now.. battery is still charged right up... going to take the starter off and look at it.. COULD the slow cranking of the starter cause not a spark at the high tension wire???? possible cutout on the generator?

[IrishHills]

Originally Posted by bogdonj

Did the coil test on it by putting the high tension wire into the dist and the other end against the head not and still nothing.

Did it backwards there... wire in coil and other end against head, then open and close points. (no starter required)

[bogdonj]

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Originally Posted by IrishHills

Did it backwards there... wire in coil and other end against head, then open and close points. (no starter required)

wire in coil and other end against head, then open and close points..this is what we've been trying to get achieve but not luck.. we read in a book to do it the other way also to check and still nothing..... more thought later tonight when I get home from work

[Steve Wastler]

Was in a discussion with an ancient electrician about 6 months ago who got very animated when I said current traveled thru the wire, he insisted the current flowed around the wire. By the end of the discussion he had convinced me I was incorrect. I should have rechecked my information before posting as I was correct when it came to our discussion in the fact that current does flow thru the wire. Thanks for the correction.

[Dave72dt]

If you're getting spark at the points, you either have a bad coil or bad coil wire.

[bogdonj]

well for a few hours after work we finally got the car running!!!!! it ran for about 1 min and then nothing...It ran rough and I had to keep the throttle down.... looked back and had a big white cloud of smoke behind me( years of built up tension maybe??? hahha)... tried again and would catch then die.... tried a few more times and the battery started to lose power... (have to recharge it).... back to the problem....

we finally got power out of the high tension wire. As mentioned above the starter seems to turn over weak and then died right out. So we took it off and cleaned it up and put it back in the car. Seem to crank the car a little better and bingo we had power coming out of the high tension wire against the head nut. Maybe a grounding issue? We noticed once it was running rough we had some white smoke coming from in between the manifold and block... so we are thinking that's why it was running rough...too much air being sucked in?

will order some parts and try it again soon...

[Pilotdave]

Manifold may be warped slightly so that mating surfaces are not true to those on the block. Best solution is to have the manifold machined so that all mating surfaces are parallel and in the same plane.

[MN Stumpjumper]

Black smoke is fuel, Blue smoke is oil, White smoke is coolant. Usually!