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#1 |
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I know this is not for ever one, so don't look if you do not want to see a chev crank in a, A engine.
After a couple of years I'm back working on this engine. Today I started to make rods for this engine out of 7075 Alum. I made a wooden one first to make sure my math was right. If there is any interest I can post some pictures of making the rods along the way. This engine will be for my home built over head cylinder head. |
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#2 |
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Interest here
Pics please Mr Miller |
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#3 | |
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Herm. |
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#4 |
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Ok I will take them after each operation. Also I will be using 283 Chev pistons.
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#5 |
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George, Whittle away and lots of pictures please! Gary
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I'm watching, interesting
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#8 |
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Day one. The picture of putting in wrist pin holes. Also the wooden rod that I made to make sure my math was right. Also to make sure it cleared every thing in side the engine. The alum rods will be a little different in shape.
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#9 |
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Please keep the pics coming. Are you building a racing motor for the salt flats???
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#12 |
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Thanks for this post Mr. Miller. How about some specs on the crankshaft. Been trying for some time to find one like this. Never thought to look at chev as the source.
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#13 |
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NIce! Never seen anybody whittle a rod out of barstock. Good Luck
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Im most curious how you handled the cam lobe timing.
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It looks like the center lines of #2 and #3 journals may be offset from the bores? I'm curious how you will handle that. Ron W
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#18 | |
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The 153 crank would be great, but it is to short for the A block. The A block is wide between 2,3 cylinders because of the dist. going through the head and into the block. |
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#19 |
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George, I don't think you can get a "smooth" firing order using the V8 90 degree crank. Depending on how you set up the valve timing, a 720 degree firing cycle would go 180-90-180-270 or 180-270-180-90. You can't get 180 degrees of crankshaft rotation between each of the 4 cylinders in the firing cycle. Seems to me the engine would run ruff.
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#20 |
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Yep, as Al said..........I wonder if it will sound like a pair of John Deere tractors running together?
![]() ![]() It will be interesting..........as well as a lot of work. What is the stroke? |
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#21 | |
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Tom It will be 1 inch less. 3 1/4, but I will be able to gain RPMS, with my cylinder head. It will be interesting to see how it does.If it does not work out I will only be out my work and a few dollars for material. But the fun and what I learn will be worth it. |
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#22 | |
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I did have a Couple John Deere when I was farming years ago.I also put a Harley 45 engine in my Cushman When I was 16 years old. We will see |
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#23 |
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George very interesting project it doesn't matter that it can't be done only that you do it. All the fun is always what wasn't or could not work , was to make it yours good bad indifferent it's still a cool project . Keep the pictures rolling.
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#24 | |
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Definite YES ![]() That looks like A block. Any reason for using A , or was that what was available ? Last edited by hardtimes; 10-05-2015 at 10:05 PM. Reason: ....... |
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#25 |
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That is what I had. It seems funny but after restoring 25 Model A's and doing a few engines for friends, I have never work on or seen a B engine.
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#27 |
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A friend of mine ran a 5 cyl. hemi V8 at the Lakes to get into a certain cubic inch class. He said it did idle oddly but was smooth under power and higher RPM. Your project is interesting but I think you'll find the torque way down because of the smaller cubic inches.
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#28 | |
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Is 7075 a suitable application for engine temps? Are you going to shot peen it? Heat treat it?
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#29 |
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Thanks for the advice, but I have been running a Mill for many years. The end mills only job is to open up the hole. By not using a collet I can change tools faster. The finish size will be done with a boring head.
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#30 | |
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Wow, 'never' worked or seen B ![]() BTW..When you get time to add notes/information (tutorial) on how you add the extra two mains to a stock block ![]() |
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#31 |
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Some you fellas and your engineering skills NEVER ceases to amaze me!!! WAY kool project!! Rowen
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#32 | |
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Got the pictures for today but can not get them to up load. |
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#33 |
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I finished the bore in piston pin end to day. Plus I put the face plate on the lathe with the fixture for boring the big end of the rod. But first have cut the bottom of the rod at the center line of the bore in the big end. Then drill the bolt holes. Will drill the bolt holes first. Then bolt it back together.
The 4 picture is the boring head for the finish bore. |
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#34 |
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What Chevy engine are the crank and cam out of?
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#35 |
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It is a V8 crank so two were together on one journal. IT Works out 1and2 go to the front of the journal and 3 and 4 go to the back of the journal. Will have to make some spacers for there.
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It's a very exciting project! I wish you the best with it. It seems there is no limit to what we will do to use the model A block. Ron W
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#37 |
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George do you still have the engine with the 455 head ?
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Very interesting, keep it coming
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#39 |
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No I sold that to a guy on ham a couple of years a go. I also had one with a 1928 chev head on a engine in a 1928 Ford pickup. I sold the truck with that on it.
Just have the over head that I made, which will go on this engine, |
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#40 |
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Here is a first off Model T 5 main block before being fully machined.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages...tml?1444223576 |
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#41 |
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George
VERY interested in this--and have a couple questions. You moved the main bearing stud centers out to an area where the rib in the block is thin--what did you do about this? Also what do you intend to do about the misalignment of the lifter holes with the respective cam lobe? Also, I wonder why you bored the big end of the rods on your lathe? I always did it in the mill, to insure parallelism of the hole, with the just bored wrist pin hole--neglecting inevitable table rock. Wondering also if you did the line boring your self? I have line bored the mains on both Ford and Chevy fours on the Bridgeport with a truly Mickey Mouse rig--but the reground crank spins in the inset bearings--so I was happy. The table is longer than your Moog, admit ably. Looked for a photo of this, but I guess that it was on film, and now is lost in a one of many boxes. Herb Kephart |
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Also, I wonder why you bored the big end of the rods on your lathe?
To me it is easier faster, no tapper when bored, more rigid, so no chatter. I always did it in the mill, to insure parallelism of the hole, with the just bored wrist pin hole The fixture on the lathe makes sure it has no twist. parallels between face plate and part make sure it is square. Then you can check it with a indicator for final check. Wondering also if you did the line boring your self? Yes made my own machine. use on the mill with a right angle head. I have made 3 sets of 7075 rods before for the A crank for different kinds of pistons. They worked real well. |
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#44 |
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Punch my name go to my album. hit show all albums. There is a picture there of the 5 main with out a crank, that show what you want to know.
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#45 | |
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George,
Your cerebral and machine skills are fantastic.
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#48 |
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Now that is engineering, and innovation.
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#49 |
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Squaring up the end of rod,cap and drill holes to hold cap on.
Next will be putting the rotary table on the mill to shape the rods. Then finish bore. Last edited by George Miller; 10-08-2015 at 01:59 PM. |
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#50 |
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Rough boring crank pin end. Now the rod will get shaped then come back for finish bore. It needs be rough bored first because when you relive all that metal it will distort some. Then when you come back and finish bore it will stay round.
Also a picture of drilling the holes for the rod cap. |
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#51 |
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Putting on the radius on the big end of rod.
Still more work. Need to do the finish bore, and more shaping on the rod. Maybe next week. Last edited by George Miller; 10-10-2015 at 11:44 AM. |
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#52 | |
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Nice work, also thanks for pictures ![]() I curious, since you indicate that you are after/will get more RPMs with this engine....how do aluminum rods rate (for wear/durability) against steel rods ? Ok, less weight, but what about stretch and deforming, etc ? I contemplated using alum rods , for recipro wt savings, but settled for Crower. I've often wondered whether there are better /best alum rods ? |
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#53 |
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Well I'm not sure how much weight you would save, depending on what kind of steel. You would have to make the alum bigger to have the same strength. 7075 is about 70,000 for tensile strength. If I was racing I would want steel like 4340.
Like most metals there are lots of grades and types of steel and alum. |
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#54 |
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up date on rods. Shaped but still need to remove weight. They are heaver than stock chev rods.
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#55 |
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Well the rods are almost done. Just have to put in the notch for the bearing tank.
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#56 |
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The rods look very nice! How does the weight compare to stock? Ron W
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#57 |
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Reminds me of the Donovon Engine also 5 Main bearings http://www.modelaparts.net/hiperf.html/donovansem.html
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#58 |
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They are about the same weight. But they are also about 2 inches longer than stock chev rods. I think 7075 is heaver than lesser strength Alum.
Last edited by George Miller; 10-17-2015 at 09:06 AM. |
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George,
7075T6 is much stronger than 6061T6 tensile and yield. on the order of 1.6~1.8 x
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#61 | |
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Hey George, I was thinking that you were using for 'hill climbing'/ racing, no ![]() |
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#63 |
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You are really doing a fantastic job on the whole project. How many hours do you have in the machining of the rods. They are a thing of beauty from the pictures that you have shown us . How much time do you figure you will have in the whole engine project. I appalaud you on the job you are doing. . And I hope that the running engine will be as fantastic as your work. Congratulation on a superb job.
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#64 |
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Thanks for the good words. How many hours. I did not keep up with the hours, but I have about 30 hours in the rods. But with a CNC mill it would be much faster. I did it the way we would have done it 40 years ago.
The engine is just some thing I wanted to do. I think it will work well with my home built cylinder head. But it will be different. Like Tom says it will sound like two two cylinder John Deere's running. They were odd fire also. Last edited by George Miller; 10-17-2015 at 09:08 AM. |
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#65 | |
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What bolts and nuts. 3/8 chev rod bolts. The ones for the big journal chev. A little better picture of the rods, maybe. |
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Still have a little touch up left to do plus putting in the bearing tab slot. |
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Looks like the relief for the head of the bolts leaves a small cross section? I hope that won't be too weak? Ron W
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I have a set of model A REM Al rods and they are heavier than stock model A rods. Bob told me that he used the same blank for his rods and just bored the B's larger. When the A rods didn't sell he just bored them out to B size. I'm thinking of boring my set out to B.
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#69 | |
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You are right Ron you have a good eye. But I only have so much room to get by the camshaft. That is the weak point of the rod. But the real strain is on the down stroke when it fires. I did put a radius in there which will help. It is the same amount as a stock Chev rod so maybe it will be ok. |
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I've got my fingers crossed for you! Ron W
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Decide to take a little more weigh off the rods.
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Originally Posted by Herb Kephart
![]() George VERY interested in this--and have a couple questions. You moved the main bearing stud centers out to an area where the rib in the block is thin--what did you do about this? Also what do you intend to do about the misalignment of the lifter holes with the respective cam lobe? Also, I wonder why you bored the big end of the rods on your lathe? I always did it in the mill, to insure parallelism of the hole, with the just bored wrist pin hole--neglecting inevitable table rock. Wondering also if you did the line boring your self? I have line bored the mains on both Ford and Chevy fours on the Bridgeport with a truly Mickey Mouse rig--but the reground crank spins in the inset bearings--so I was happy. The table is longer than your Moog, admit ably. Looked for a photo of this, but I guess that it was on film, and now is lost in a one of many boxes. Herb Kephart The miss alignment of lifter bores will be fixed with new lifter boss made in one long bar. Then attached to the block. Here is a picture of the start of long boss bar. |
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#73 |
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Hey George,
Hm, I can not see small pic details...even with my CVS glasses. Your pics will not enlarge as per usual. Maybe just me/my beloved puter..ha ! Thanks for sharing your skills/talent/pictures. |
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#74 | |
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But it is just a flat bar with bores for the lifters that runs the length of the inside of the engine. When I get it done I will take some better pictures, maybe. |
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#75 |
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The original pic is quite small. It's only 319 X239 pxl @ 100%. Ron W
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#76 |
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Hardtimes I hope you can see this. It is the lifter boss in the block. also the the 5 mains in the model A block.
Lifter boss is made for hydraulic lifters, because the cam is for hydraulic lifters. |
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#77 | |
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Yes, nice pictures, thanks ![]() ![]() |
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George I Believe I see the oil pump is mounted at the rear of the block
how is that driven ? and are you going for dry sump ? as the cam is chain driven how are you driving the distributor or mag |
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#79 | |
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the lifters are oiled through the the boss. It is two pieces pined together. I milled a oil path in them before they were put together.It it has pipe thread that will have a oil line going to the oil pump. |
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The distributor is driven from the front of the cam. It will be mounted to the front timing cover. I plan on having the oil in the pan. Last edited by George Miller; 11-04-2015 at 08:50 AM. |
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#81 |
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I will see if I have a picture of the front cover and the front of the cam.
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#82 | |
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I will have to use a V8 dist because of the uneven firing order. |
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Thanks George I see and understand now my hat is off to you
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Worked a little more on the engine to day. I'm going to use floating wrist pins with chev pistons. So today I put retainer ring groves in the pistons for the wrist pin retainer rings..
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picture of expanding arbor and piston getting the grove.
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Shortening the wrist pins so they will fit in-between the locks. I have one picture showing the grooves for the retainer pins, but it is not to clear. Next is to make spacers to locate the rod in the center of piston. |
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To day I made some rod spacers for the crankshaft to put the rod in the right location on the crank, because it was made for two rods on each throw.
When I get ever think made and fit, I will have to take it all apart and clean it good. |
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Very interesting,please keep pictures and dialog coming !!!
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#89 |
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Trial fit of over head cylinder head on 5 main block.
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Hey George,
Wow, that is awesome work ![]() Looks to be coming together just as you described previously. I can just see some guy, in the future, finding this engine somewhere and opening it up and saying...whattheheck ![]() Last edited by hardtimes; 12-01-2015 at 10:58 PM. Reason: .... |
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Maybe in a month or two. |
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Putting in main bearing oil lines.
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Hey George, if the hydraulic lifters don't work out you can use solid lifters and adjust
the valves for .006 thousands. We used to do it all the time on chevy V-8's with hydraulic cams to cheat the rules. Also how are you going about balancing the crankshaft. It seems like your going to have to balance it like a V-8 using bobweights in which case your going to have to cut down the counter weights quite a bit to make up the the loss of weight of the other rod and piston. Maybe the spacer should be made bigger and of steel. My 2 cents. |
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George,
Great! Can't wait to hear about the engine. Are you and Marilyn coming to the Grassy Creek Parade? Hope so. Thanks, Hugh |
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I will try to get some better pictures when they are connected. But they will run through main bearing support boss in to the lifter boss block, that I made for the lifters. I drilled a hole in the main bearing supports that has a champer . Then I flare the end of the line that fits in the champer. The insert bearning will keep the line down in the champer. just as clear mud right. |
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Here you go. the two main webs that were added, the lines hook to the bottom. I put fittings in there before they were installed. The other three go through a hole in the web, the inserts will go over top of them.
Last edited by George Miller; 12-09-2015 at 03:47 PM. |
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![]() What type distributor will you run/use ? |
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I will post a picture when it is installed. |
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Wow. Please post a video when it runs. I would really like to hear it. Any more thoughts
on the balancing? |
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#108 | |
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My plan is to take it to the hill climb in May. But I have a good hot engine waiting just in case this one does not do well. |
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George, is this going in the red one or the blue roadster? Been following this and would sure like to see a video also when completed. Amazing work and detail. Good luck with it and Happy New Year.
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Maybe I'm jus a goober,..but this is just amazing to me!! The ingenuity, machining, and overall imagination,....just amazing!! Fantastic Mr Miller, you have my utmost respect!! I too can't wait to see/hear it run!!
Rowen
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#111 | |
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So making a new one out of parts that are laying around. Here is a picture of the new one and a picture of the red one with the 4 port engine. Last edited by George Miller; 01-04-2016 at 09:34 PM. |
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#112 |
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Thanks for the kind words. Just had the right Dad and jobs in my life that pointed me in this direction.
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#114 |
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Up date.
Back working on my engine. pistons are in, oil pump ready to go, cam timing done, dist just about ready, working on front damper for crankshaft. The little things take a long time to do on some thing like this. No pictures because you can not see what was done. The oil pan and head will be soon. |
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#115 | |
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![]() ![]() Since your crank is sbc (?) , would not a balancer common to that crank/engine work ? If not, could you explain details of why and what has to be changed/why ? |
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#116 |
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Should be more pictures today. Hard times I end up using a balancer from a 4 cylinder 151 chev. Mostly because I had one.
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All this makes the phrase that comes to mind: "Ford Tough - with Chevy Stuff"
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#118 |
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Here are some pictures of trial fit of head. Every thing looks ok except will need a little longer push rods. Lets paint it.
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#119 | |
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Regarding making new pushrods, what materials....and HOW do you get proper LENGTH ![]() |
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42 High Tech Boulevard Thomasville NC 27360 PH 800-448-1223 If you get them from them they will tell you how to measure. It was something like 140 from the end of the push rod. |
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Did a little work on the engine. To cold and wet to paint it, so I worked on clutch. Drilled the chev flywheel for a Mustang pressure plate. Using a 9" clutch plate that fits the 39 Ford transmission. Made bushing for the end of the crank so I could use the ford A Pilot bearing. Reworked the chev V8 starter to fit the Ford block with the chev flywheel.
Firing order for those that were wondering. hits on 1 then 3 skip hits on 2 skip skip hits on 4 Last edited by George Miller; 01-28-2016 at 04:34 PM. Reason: added to |
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#123 | |
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Awesome , thanks for update . Well, firing order IS close to fords banger, eh ![]() Who needs a 'stinken auto supplier' store, when you are around ![]() Geeze, I hope that you have this ALL documented ...in case something has to be 'ordered' by next guy with this ![]() |
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#124 |
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We are getting there.
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Wonderful pictures, thanks for sharing
![]() Will you have it on a stand for first test firing or in vehicle ? Boy, did I ever learn the value of not putting my new B in the car for first start up. Have done it both ways, but getting to where it isn't as easy to remove it as it used to be ![]() |
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Update on engine. Been working on the hill climb car (or should I say truck) with some friends.
Tried to get oil pressure on the engine. Pump did not want to work on the out side of engine. So reworked the camshaft and put a drive gear in the center from a Model A cam. Now we can use a oil pump drive from the A engine with the oil pump on the inside. Now we can move on to the next challenge. |
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#128 |
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update.
Had the engine running for a short time. Did not run well, so set it a side and put the other engine that I have in my hill climb car. We are running out of time to get the car done. I think the problem is the cam shaft timing. It will have to wait until next winter. |
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Sorry to hear it did not run well. One thing I have been pondering; is this the same crank that Tod has in mind for his 5 bearing block? Probably should as in Tods block thread, but was wondering exactly what to do for a crank when I can afford a block in a few years. Might be time to find a couple of cheap cranks to offset the cost of such a build. Rod
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#130 |
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No this is a chev V8 crank. It is a 90 degree crank. I'm sure Tods will be 180 degree. With a 180 you can use the Model A cam. I think you would have to get a crank from Scat or one of the others that make special cranks. Maybe Tod will give us the answer.
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George, any news on this engine? I was sorry to read the initial start up did not go well. Hoping to see a video soon of that bad boy runnin!
Rowen
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#132 |
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It will be awhile before I can get back working on it. hill climb next week. Then get caught up on other jobs that got behind on.
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#133 |
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Get er done!!!!!
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#134 |
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Here is where we are. It will be 3 weeks before I can try to start her.
Will post at that time how it worked out. |
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#135 |
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George.....out of curiosity did you happen to look at a mecruiser 470 crank to see if it was possible to fit into an A block or know anyone that has?
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no totally different beast....much bigger!!
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Then no I have not tried that one.
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#139 |
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Well we got it running tonight. It sounds good, but have some little things to take care of.
The guys took a video of it running and are going to put it on the Ford Barn. |
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YaY we need a link to the video.....!!!!!
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#141 |
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It sounds great
https://youtu.be/nhktJEMUuxM |
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Yikes, that is sweet as can be!!
I have a lot of respect for someone as talented as George
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#143 |
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well, hate to say it but it sounds more like a SBC with one head removed, a broken crank, a blown head gasket, and two fouled plugs.....
what the h e double L people... |
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Sounds terrible, mostly seems out of balance, but it actually runs! Amazing engine-unity. I'm betting you'll get the bugs out of it.
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#146 | |
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Besides, there is enough people casting blocks as it is... ![]() |
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#148 |
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Well it is a uneven fire it is not going to sound like stock 4 cylinder. Harley's sounds funny also but the go like hell. It is like one of the cylinder heads being off the v8. The firing order is hit, hit, miss, hit miss,miss hit. So it will sound different. The big question is how will it power a car.
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I'm digging the journey.
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Nice job George great engineering
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This is so excellent! Great job!!!
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#152 |
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Now lets hear that sucker at 5k rpms....lol
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#153 |
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any chance you got a balancer on there, George?
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#154 |
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Yes there is a balancer. It seems smooth on the stand, it also sounds a lot better when you hear it run in person. The sound did not come through the same as it sounded when we were running it.But like I said how it runs is what I care about.
My John Deere's Tractors I had when I was Farming sounded different also, but were strong tractors. They were 2 cylinders with both pistons coming to the top at the same time. Last edited by George Miller; 07-30-2016 at 06:34 AM. |
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I like this
please keep it updated |
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What is the purpose the entire project ? Wayne
Last edited by C26Pinelake; 07-30-2016 at 09:50 PM. |
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I don't think it sounds bad, but I do own a Harley.
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Yep, Harleys and John Deeres do not fire symmetrically, and they run just fine. In fact, they are loaded with torque
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boy did I ruffle some feathers.....
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Well I could tell it was your first piano recital ., Just kidding
Georges work speaks for itself ., ,. ,.
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George, Im still eyeballing the 470 crank, there are a couple on e bay right now....
never know, I might race you up that hill one day ![]() |
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The first time I ran a race with a old dirt track car, I was 18 I came in second. I was mad at myself, I though I should have beat that old man with a 51 Plymouth. But he won fair and square. |
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![]() seriously though I wish I could get a hold of one of these cranks without dropping a couple bucks on it.... Its just that my interest has been sparked, and I have high hopes it could work out... |
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Also made a adapter to run a dist off the front but, pointing up like on a flathead Ford V8. That improved how it ran. It has a vacuum and mechanical advance. I did have it running real good, so decided to put in a better cam. |
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