Almost ready to quite--$300 later and still no spark!?

[30aadoodlebug]

Hey All,

So the subject line says it all. I have re-done the entire ignition system of my 30 AA, and I still can't get her to start. I have changed: the switch, all of the ignition wiring, ammeter, condenser, coil (three times...), lower distributor plate and wire, upper plate, rotor, and points. Ive basically changed 3/4 of the electrical system and she still won't work. Any thoughts, or should I move on?

Thanks,

Jon

[Big hammer]

Well I guess I will be the bad boy. What was the original problem? The problem now is where do we start? You have changed too many things before asking for help!

[30aadoodlebug]

not trying to be a wise-guy, but doesn't this constitute as trouble shooting?

[mshmodela]

I think you're going to need to trace out all voltages from the battery forward, eliminating things step by step --making a note of each. Take your time, make sure your ground is good as well as all connections.

[GT66PONY]

I just went thru the same problem on my new 28 A pickup! I found three problems!
1 The conduit was screwed to far into the distributor, Shorting it out
2 The screws that was holding the points were too long, shorting the top plate with the bottom plate
3 There was no nuts in the junction box, Holding the wires firmly together

If you want to message me I will tell you how to check it out!!
Some of the guys on here forgot they were new once also!!

[Big hammer]

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I am not trying to be a a$$ but what you have done is what some call shot gunning.

[SteveB31]

Here is what I would do.

Make sure the ignition points are open.

With a voltmeter .....

see if you have 6 volts....

1.- At the battery cable on top of the starter switch

then

2.- on both studs on the terminal box

then

3.- on both threaded studs on the coil

if you do, then turn the key switch on

4.- both terminals on the key switch

if you have 6 volts at all those places.......

then, unscrew the key switch from the distributor and (with the key on) see if you have 6 volts on the END of the end of the key switch wire.

If you DO have 6 volts at all those places, then the problem is IN the distributor.

So, screw the cable back in the distributor (just a few turns BY HAND.)

Assuming STOCK distributor, see if you have 6 volts on the moving part of the points. If you do not, then you have to remove the cam and upper plate, and see WHY you dont have 6 volts there. Follow the volts from the lower plate , thru the wire and to the points. None of those parts should touch metal (all need to be insulated from the metal housing).

If that doesnt make spark... then call me. I can walk you thru the rest.

Steve Becker
Berts Model A Center
800-321-1931

[Jacksonlll]

Watch this video, it may help. Just have a good multimeter and test light.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXA6izLrTOc

[GT66PONY]

Great advice from Steve !

[J Franklin]

I guess a good way to explain the problem with changing out parts to fix a trouble is that if a new part out of the box is faulty it will not start. Now the next part goes in and it replaces the original bad part, now it still wont start, and on and on. Finding the fault first always works but sometimes there are multiple bad parts and it is more tricky to keep the sequence of what was done straight! Don't give up, you will be a better person and mechanic for it!

[zzlegend]

Jon, to many things have been changed. Slow down and get out the test light and volt meter as Steve suggested. You are going to get a lot of different ideas thrown at you from a lot of different people. Do your self a favor and pick one and follow him. Steve is offering you help and he knows A's. Do your self a favor and follow his lead and call him if you have to. He is a great guy to talk to. Good luck with it.

[Tom Wesenberg]

What Steve listed is TROUBLE SHOOTING vs. parts swapping. Steve list the logical flow of current from the battery to the points, and when you find where the test light fails to light, or meter fails to read 6 volts, then you have found the problem, and you can fix that part, or replace it if need be.

An example is if you have 6 volts at one terminal box wing nut, but not at the other wing nut, then you only have the connections under the cover on those 2 studs, 2 short wires, and the ammeter, that could cause the problem. So replacing any other parts would be a waste of money.

[Mike V. Florida]

Too late to go back now. I hope you kept all the parts you changed out for future spares.

Anyway,

Here is my generic no Spark guide.

Some possibilities are:
1.Blown or defective fuse (use of a fuse is an aftermarket item)
2.Bad connections at ammeter, or ammeter itself (t0 find out put a jumper wire from one post of the terminal box to the other to take the ammeter out of the circuit temporarily)
3.Bad ignition switch and/or cable, or loose cable connection at switch.
4.Loose or broken wires at bottom of coil
5.Loose or broken wires inside terminal box
6.Loose, bare or broken pigtail wire under distributor plate, or wire grounding to plate or distributor body
7.Points not opening, or point arm grounding to cam due to worn rubbing block
8.Worn electrode in underside of distributor cap
9.Loose or broken high tension wire from coil to cap
10.Condenser burned out or grounding (some condensers are too long and can touch the distributor body inside)
11.Weak coil
12.Rotor not turning due to loose cam screw or bad timing gear.


Ok now break out a volt meter (a light bulb can give false readings).
Start at the fuse block, you should have voltage on both sides of the fuse. If you only have voltage on one side, replace the fuse or fuse block.

Now with voltage on both sides of the fuse, move up to the junction box. There should be voltage at both terminals. If voltage is present only on one side the problem is at the ampmeter and you should Jumper the ampmeter for now.
You should have voltage on both sides of the coil. If not,
remove the red wire on the coil and check again. If you now have voltage on both sides, you have a problem further on. If the voltage is still only in one side you have a bad coil.

Open the points with a piece of paper and remove the condenser. Turn the key on and you should have voltage at the points.
Replace the condenser and you should still have voltage.

If voltage is missing, remove the top plate and check for voltage on the bottom plate.

Check is the connector from the ignition switch screwed in to far? Do you have voltage on the wire to the upper plate?

Is this wire shorting to ground or broken?
Remove the paper from the points and see that the points are closed. You should have 0 volts at the points with them closed. If not,
The points are dirty or the distributor is not grounded well to the engine.

If you have voltage at the movable arm of the points when open and none when closed and still no spark from the coil to a head stud, you have a bad coil.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Mike V, Dog here,
You DRAW GOOD! Wish I had THUMBS.
Buster T.

[Model A Man]

My guess is that the timing is off 180 degrees. When I first got my model A, I tried to time it and couldn't figure why it wouldn't start and I tried for several days and found out it was not timed correctly. when I read how to time a model A I miss read how to do it and got it wrong but after rereading how to time it I figured it out and it started.

[Synchro909]

Hey Doodles,
Does the rotor button turn when you crank the motor? My guess from about as far away as you can get is stripped timing gear.
Please let us all know what the problem is when you get to the bottom of it.

[Big hammer]

Two men that I worked with had a engine miss and changed the plugs no help
They then changed rotor, points,cap,wires,set timing,condenser and still had a miss
They then changed the new plugs with newer plugs and now ran like a top!
Don't guess that new parts are good and if counter person slams new plugs down on the counter walk away !

[Jwilli]

Jon, there is some great advise in the previous replies. Just take your time and follow their instructions. I have solved several problems using their knowledge. Thank to all who posted good advise.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by 30aadoodlebug

not trying to be a wise-guy, but doesn't this constitute as trouble shooting?

to answer your question "no" its the furthest thing from it..

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubleshooting


you have been given expert advice to diagnose your no spark condition. do you have any knowledgeable people local to you with some experience to help you diagnose, locate and repair?

post #17 will not cause no spark which is what was listed by the original poster as the problem.

[Charlie Stephens]

I went over to a person's garage to help them start their car. It turned out the points were adjusted with too wide of a gap and since they never completely closed they could never break to generate a spark. Did the truck used to run and what was the last thing you did before it would no longer run? Do you have a good meter to use to check out the system? Have you asked your local Model A club if they had someone that could help? Be sure to post what finally solved the problem.

Charlie Stephens

[Rowdy]

Lots of good advice here. I do a ton of troubleshooting at work and simply swapping parts wholesale is not troubleshooting. Unfortunatley I work with people who do alot of parts swapping which often further complicate troubleshooting issues. Had a forklift in the shop last week that seemed to need a new part. One of the other mechanics changed it and we had no change in symptoms so he put the old one back on and walked away from the problem. No troubleshooting had taken place prior. It sat in the shop until I got to it a couple of days later. Turned out he was correct on the part it needed, but he had put on one that was defective out of the box. I do not know which one he used, so it is likely we have one in our inventory that is defective. Rod

[jax55]

Jon, great advise on here. I have one more thing to suggest, IF you have the fuse panel at the starter and it has the aftermarket circuit breaker in it.... do NOT assume it is good.
Mine worked fine while I was tracking down a wiring issue that kept tripping it.
I finally got the car out of the garage for it's maiden voyage, got about three miles down the road and the car quit. Between three of us, found the circuit breaker BROKE. Guess my point is don't assume something is good or bad. Test it!
Follow the suggestions for tracing the voltage through the system and be sure what is supposed to be grounded is. It will save you time, money and major frustration.
Good luck and let us know what you find out.

[rocket1]

try asking for help,might be a Barner in your area.

[colin1928]

Originally Posted by rocket1

try asking for help,might be a Barner in your area.

Good idea sometimes fresh eyes will spot the problem in minutes

[Doug Linden]

Jon,
PM sent, contact me.
Doug

[30aadoodlebug]

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Hey all,

Problem solved, bad lower plate and terminal box issues. I used a modern coil replacement and everything is reverse. Either way, thank you to all of you that gave me your input. it's funny how everything works when you arn't in a 5 degree barn...

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by 30aadoodlebug

Hey all,

Problem solved, bad lower plate and terminal box issues. I used a modern coil replacement and everything is reverse. Either way, thank you to all of you that gave me your input. it's funny how everything works when you arn't in a 5 degree barn...

So glad you found it and posted the solution here!!
Get her out and drive!

[Goldhardt]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

So glad you found it and posted the solution here!!
Get her out and drive!

I agree and thanks for letting us know the solution. Sometimes it's like watching a two hour movie and missing the last ten minutes around here!

[imacrazy]

I had that problem some time ago, the wire in the conduit was shorted .Just a thought.

Bill

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by 30aadoodlebug

not trying to be a wise-guy, but doesn't this constitute as trouble shooting?

Sorry no that is parts changing. Model A is a very simple system. My advice would be go back over every thing again. Also is the dist shaft turning you could have a bad timing gear.

Take a volt meter and go from the power source and see where the power quits.