Update on overheating problem!!!

[DeBordEngineMan]

I stated in previous posts I have been having some issues with the 29 Tudor overheating. For starters I installed a new distributor, lower shaft, oil pump drive gear today and set timing spot on and cleaned and flushed radiator and back flushed engine and I still overheated at the same point as I did on my previous "RUN" went the same route as first time I overheated. Started to overheat at the same location, now I checked the radiator flow as people have said I filled it to the top of rim while holding my hand over lower radiator hole, it came rushing out fast and emptied in about 5 seconds and also checked it with the upper hose on and the lower hose off I held my hands over each hole the one at bottom of radiator and bottom of motor and wife filled the complete system it too all came out fast and at full force in about 5 to 7 seconds depending on how I counted and also took waterhose with spray nozzle on and back flushed from bottom pipe on motor and water really gushed out of top neck clean as a pin nothing came out but clear water so I don't think that I have any obstructions unless there is rust built up around cylinders? I think my problem may be that the radiator needs to be rodded out or the fins and insides have separated and not dispursing the heat so I think that by the time I run and try and find a radiator shop to rod it out "right" but then you will still have a old "fixed up" radiator, it is far better just to buy a new radiator but at around 600.00 dollars I hope this is my problem? But in the long run if it is not the problem I would have a new radiator. What do you guys think? I would like to hear your all's opinion what else may be the problem? Also ran the car very light about 30 mph and changed from antifreeze to plain water also drove about a 7 to 8 mile round trip but started to overheat at about 5 miles and had to stop and check and add a 2 liter Pepsi bottle of water to the radiator twice on the whole round trip and the water was boiling very violently. Was really HOT!!! Also could it be the water pump? I think it is working alright as I can see the water move inside the radiator neck. As a side note water was blowing out the new reproduction quail cap I bought as I said before in the other post, it was blowing out between the base and where it turns and closes replaced with o ring and it does not blow out there anymore just goes out overflow tube well sorry for such a long post forgive me I am long winded sometimes hope to hear some of your all"s thoughts on this. Thanks, Robert DeBord

[LeroyM]

If you have an original radiator and the tanks are good just get a new core installed. While you're waiting to have the radiator recored pull the head and rod out all the water jackets in the block. Take small pieces of wire, screw drivers or anything you can get in the water jackets to knock off years of rust and scale.

Install the radiator and run plain water with a can or rust inhibitor, set the timing correctly and post your results.

[satelite]

Sure sounds like the water is geting super heated like maybe a blown head gasket or cracked valve seat. Have you checked for bubbles in the water?
Don in SC

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by DeBordEngineMan

...I checked the radiator flow as people have said I filled it to the top of rim while holding my hand over lower radiator hole, it came rushing out fast and emptied in about 5 seconds and also checked it with the upper hose on and the lower hose off I held my hands over each hole the one at bottom of radiator and bottom of motor and wife filled the complete system it too all came out fast and at full force in about 5 to 7 seconds..

Here is the problem with that test;

How much water does an absolutly clean radiator hold and how much does your hold? If only a quart of water comes out in 5 secs does it pass the test as compared with 2 gals in the same 5 secs?

[DeBordEngineMan]

Mike the radiator held around 2 1/2 gallons of water that is how much antifreeze I drained out. All the water came out in approximately 5 seconds. Robert

[Mike V. Florida]

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Originally Posted by DeBordEngineMan

Mike the radiator held around 2 1/2 gallons of water that is how much antifreeze I drained out. All the water came out in approximately 5 seconds. Robert

Ok good, just making sure!!!

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by DeBordEngineMan

Mike the radiator held around 2 1/2 gallons of water that is how much antifreeze I drained out. All the water came out in approximately 5 seconds. Robert

I think you need to get that a bit stronger. Mine came out in 2.5....

You need to have that sucker boiled our and dipped....then check it.

[Chris in CT]

Hi Robert, I'm suspicious. What kind of gas milage are you getting? It should be approximately 18.5 mpg. If your car is running very rich, or, very lean, either of these conditions could lead to overheating. Also, what kind of muffler are you running? Is it up to spec and not clogged? Has someone in your club got a good one they could lend you for a test? (It'll only take you 30 minutes to swap it out...).
Also, what kind of oil are you using? No, I do not want to start up the great oil discussion here, but the oil in a Model A is crucial to engine cooling. If you're running a multi-weight, please try a 40 single weight. If you're running a single weight, please try Shell Rotella 10-50 or similar. From your description, I doubt your problem is actually in your cooling system... Good Luck!

[DeBordEngineMan]

Chris in CT my car has a new muffler and tailpipe I use Rotella strait 30 as far as gas mileage goes I have not got to drive it no more than maybe 20 to 30 miles total on short trips up and down the road overheated on the two longest trips of about 7 to 8 miles each so I don't know about gas mileage? And my fuel setting I open up the mixer to where the car runs good and will take fuel and not sputter from a lack of fuel or air (I have and run Hit and Miss gas engines with needle valve settings so I am use to setting the carburetor like this car has) maybe open a half a turn I have a new rebuilt Zenith that was rebuilt by a top Model A man that does carbs so I know the carburetor is right but I maybe not setting it right? I still think it is in my cooling system but don't know for sure. Robert

[1928ar]

i had an overheating problem with mine for the longest time timed it and timed over and over still over heating i got a new radiator and still overheated so i thought maybe bad water pump or blown head gasket i pulled the upper water neck to check if the fins fit good into the head and they did i pulled the head and i had a dead cylender due to a dirty spark plug connector i cleaned them all up and put it back together and started and i just had to adjust the carb and the car runs great now and has plenty of pep and no more overheating hope this helped jim

[mickeyb]

I had a over heating problem and tried all of this.the cure was a new radiator on 2 cars

[skip]

Water/coolant "does not blow out there anymore just goes out overflow tube."

Maybe your not over heating at all but have not allowed the radiator to 'seek it's own level yet'. When your driving along and the timing and advance is perfect, remember a speed of 35 mph to 40 mph will not require full advance like 60 mph. And she's peeing coolant, that's Ok. I don't worry till she makes steam from the bottom of the overflow tube under the chassis. And that's not even a big deal. Just pull over and add some coolant while she's running from the gallon milk jug you always carry. Right skip?
Remember; No more than 2-1/2 gallon in the combination of block and radiator.

So have you made your water depth stick yet?


skip.

[Tacoma Bob]

Robert..........you have answered the question. I speak from experiencing the same stuff with my own car. It sounds as though your tube to fin contact is gone. Don't waste anymore time on that stupid three second drain test. Take the suggested rubber ball and give it your dog. LOL. You may have shared this before so forgive me BUT, is there a baffle in the radiator? Is your overflow tube bent too far forward causing a siphoning effect?Are you running a license plate on the headlight bar? And one I think Brent addressed.....are your breaks set too tight. Here's a freebie Buddy. Model A s have a wonderful built in feature called thermo siphon cooling. In fact many claim you dont even need the water pump. Find a quiet stretch of road several miles long. Take off and at NO time drive over 30 mph.
Keep the car at 29mph. Drive your pants off at that speed. If nothing happends and everything looks good speed up to 35 mph and see what happends. If she starts pukin odds are your radiator needs a recor or replaced. Trust me as I went through this witch hunt for a year. I finally got my head out of my rectal storage facility and ordered up a Brassworks rad and friend I never looked back.

[Patrick L.]

I think the boys are right in saying you have a radiator problem.. If there is a good radiator shop in your area, then, a $100 cleaning or $300 re-core beats $600 for a new one.. While the radiator is out, its easy to take a good look at the water pump..

[DeBordEngineMan]

Tacoma Bob my radiator does have the baffle in place as far as the overflow tube I don't know how far forward is to much mine sits to the right side of the car kinda angled to the back I do not run a plate on the front I also run engine pans which are suppose to help in cooling and also a 4 blade fan and my brakes are not set up to much as stated in another post my brake light was staying on after I released pedal but I think it was just the newness of all the brake components as it releases the switch OK now so I still think that the radiator is not doing its job as it should. As for cleaning out the radiator I have already taken it to a local shop and had a couple of holes fixed and the neck had almost been twisted off at some point the man would not rod it out said it would probably leak worse on a old radiator or he just didn't want to mess with it with it being so old really don't know so he fixed the holes and the neck, Pressure tested it to I think 4psi. and said he just "cleaned" it out and said it was not in the best of shape anyway best case it would maybe last for awhile and that was 100.00 with time and fuel to take and pickup. He also charged 500.00 to recore using my tanks for that price I can buy a new one from Brassworks and all components would be new also not very many shops around, took it to 3 shops before I got this guy to work on this radiator so I think a new radiator is in the near future and a new water pump just in case for the Tudor just hope this takes care of the problem. By the way is there any test that I can do to check the water pump to see if it is working sufficiently I can see some movement looking down in radiator,Thanks Robert DeBord

[john in illinois]

Most model A overheating seems to be caused by the radiator. If the water pump turns it is probably OK.If it was me I would buy a new Brassworks rather than trying to fix worn out radiator parts ,not knowing what you would end up with.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Sounds like you're set on buying a new radiator. Instead, I'd buy the core from Bergbower in Illinois. He makes excellent cores that look original for 28 and 29. His son just took over the operation and I think he may also do 30 and 31's now.

If you are replacing the old core, you have nothing to loose by removing the bottom tank and trying to rod it out yourself. Use a small flame tip and heat a small area of the soldered seam. As soon as the solder melts use compressed air to blow it away. Keep working around the tank until all the seam is unsoldered, then pry the tank off. You learn by doing, and if the shops want too much, or won't do it, you can have a cheap lesson.

[john charlton]

I had an overheating problem and the rad would still dump its full capacity in seconds flat. Sammy in sunny AZ sent me a hand held infra red "gun",it was a revelation .The centre third of the rad was blocked solid ,all the flow going down the outer tubes mostly out of the fan area which also did not help. Before you go further buy one of these gizmos !!! The one I have is an Extech IR250 and can be set to Fahrenheit or Celsius . You can also check how hot the dog is or anything else you care to point it at.

John in wet cool night England.

[pdora]

It might be helpful to obtain temperature readings with an infrared thermometer. These divices are inexpensive and accurate enough for such purposes.

Here is one example.

[Paul from Maine]

After removing the head and cleaning out about enough rust from the water jackets to fill an 8 oz coffee cup, backflushing a similar amount of rust out out of the radiator and shaking huge pieces of rust out of the head, I still was running in the 190 degree range. I spent hours working on the radiator with everything from Drano to Evaporust. This was after I had a radiator shop "boil" it out. 190 was too high for me, so I finally sprung the $600 for a new radiator from Brattons. I ordered it Monday pm from Tam's and Tuesday night I had it installed. Couldn't get the temp above 135 no matter what I did. Had to put a 165 degree thermostat in the upper hose just to warm up the engine. Wished I had sprung the $600 two months earlier. Would have saved me days of wasted effort. Buy a new radiator from BRATTONS. It even has hood rests!

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Paul from Maine

After removing the head and cleaning out about enough rust from the water jackets to fill an 8 oz coffee cup, backflushing a similar amount of rust out out of the radiator and shaking huge pieces of rust out of the head, I still was running in the 190 degree range. I spent hours working on the radiator with everything from Drano to Evaporust. This was after I had a radiator shop "boil" it out. 190 was too high for me, so I finally sprung the $600 for a new radiator from Brattons. I ordered it Monday pm from Tam's and Tuesday night I had it installed. Couldn't get the temp above 135 no matter what I did. Had to put a 165 degree thermostat in the upper hose just to warm up the engine. Wished I had sprung the $600 two months earlier. Would have saved me days of wasted effort. Buy a new radiator from BRATTONS. It even has hood rests!

did you get it from joe at tams or brattons ?

[DeBordEngineMan]

I went and got a infrared thermometer today and tested the radiator I did cut back some on the fuel in case I was running it a bit to rich I stayed close to home and drove about 1 mile total and back to the house and checked temps were in the alright range I drove back and forth a mile at a time and would stop with motor running it would read from 125 at the bottom to 175 at top but it would be all over the place hot and cold spots at different sections on the radiator so after all was said and done after about 6 or 7 trips (I lost count) the top hose at the radiator was around 205 and the bottom hose was at 165 to 170 and the rest of the radiator was just all over the place so it tells me that it is not cooling sufficiently over the entire surface of the radiator also it did not overheat but as the temp tells it was mighty close when I overheated before I was at a constant pull not stopping so I think that the radiator just could not cool it fast enough for the cold and hot spots tell me I have some stopped up places in the radiator so the radiator shop wants 125.00 to rod out with no guarantee it would be any better plus I have already spent 100.00 on it to patch some holes and fix neck and flush out at the same shop so I am looking at 225.00 plus tax and my gas back and forth and my time and still have a "OLD FIXED UP RADIATOR" so no more money on it just going to buy a new Brassworks I guess, thanks for all the help and suggestions guys I think that a new radiator will fix my overheating problems, Lord I hope so, Robert DeBord

[tuneman]

Just my guess. head gasket leaking!
Put a short piece of hose on the top of the overflow tube bend the tube back and put the hose under the edge of the rad neck. Next i would cut down the fins on the waterpump.
too much water being pumped to the rad and
being forced down the overflow tube.
these are some of the fixes i've used before.
Also invest in the laser temp tool . Check every tube in the rad after driving till it over heats . Then check the hoses and head with the temp tool

[CWPASADENA]

Originally Posted by DeBordEngineMan

I went and got a infrared thermometer today and tested the radiator I did cut back some on the fuel in case I was running it a bit to rich I stayed close to home and drove about 1 mile total and back to the house and checked temps were in the alright range I drove back and forth a mile at a time and would stop with motor running it would read from 125 at the bottom to 175 at top but it would be all over the place hot and cold spots at different sections on the radiator so after all was said and done after about 6 or 7 trips (I lost count) the top hose at the radiator was around 205 and the bottom hose was at 165 to 170 and the rest of the radiator was just all over the place so it tells me that it is not cooling sufficiently over the entire surface of the radiator also it did not overheat but as the temp tells it was mighty close when I overheated before I was at a constant pull not stopping so I think that the radiator just could not cool it fast enough for the cold and hot spots tell me I have some stopped up places in the radiator so the radiator shop wants 125.00 to rod out with no guarantee it would be any better plus I have already spent 100.00 on it to patch some holes and fix neck and flush out at the same shop so I am looking at 225.00 plus tax and my gas back and forth and my time and still have a "OLD FIXED UP RADIATOR" so no more money on it just going to buy a new Brassworks I guess, thanks for all the help and suggestions guys I think that a new radiator will fix my overheating problems, Lord I hope so, Robert DeBord

I would put that money towards a new radiator or re-core the one you have. Rodding an old radiator will often result in a clean radiator that still does not cool well because the core is NG. The bond between the fins and the tubes is bad and no amount of cleaning will fix it.

Even if you find a problem with the engine, you still need a good radiator.

Again, Just my poinion.

Chris

[Pa Joe]

Robert, I dont to pretend to know what our fellow fordbarners know, they have much more experience than me, but I have been following your heat problems since the start because I had the same exact problem. From every thing I read and learned timing and carbaration has an effect on the tempeture, BUT, to a lessser degree than the actual cooling system. I had the same problem, drive it 5 miles and I got rusty water blowing all over the windshield. Overheating. This is what I did. I felt the radiatior when it was hot, half the rad was hot the other half was cold. That tells me the rad isn't circulating right. I dont want to spend the money on a NEW rad anymore than you do but I did. My thinking is this, if I take it to a rad shop and they rod it, its so old it will probably fall apart and I'll still have to pay them for whatever they do and I still have the same problem. To make a long story short, it made sense to me to go to Snyders and just BITE THE BULLET and buy a heavy duty rad and get it over with. I know its expensive but I'll bet you right now, thats not the last thing you'll be spending money on while your getting that A ready to enjoy. Since I replaced the rad, (your going to love this) now it runs to cold. I cant even get it to 160 on a 90 degree day. Now I got to put a thermostat in it. Don't ya just love it. Just trying to help. that my 2 cents. And one more thing I did that Les Andrews test to with timing the water draining out of the rad and my old rad ran out fast to. Bottom line, new rad, no more problem, just a little lighter in the wallet. Joe








fordbarners know

[Brentwood Bob]

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Have you had the head off? I tried all the above except a new radiator. Turns out the block is cracked at #2, and #3 exhaust valves and the cracks go half way down the cylinder wall. Owner said it always had a problem keeping water in the radiator. It wouldn't go more than 6-8 miles between water stops. Also you can crack the block adding fresh water unless you cool the block first. You may dig deeper before you invest the $600. for a new brass works. Bob

[DeBordEngineMan]

Brentwood Bob I have never had the head off I guess I really need to and make sure nothing else is going on, but I do feel that the radiator is bad anyway so I am thinking about just biting the bullet and buying a new one anyway. I am just afraid that when I pull the head that I am going to break a stud bolt off or worse and I really don't have the knowledge or tools to fix so I am a little reluctant to remove head. But I know that I will have to at some point for some reason. Thanks Robert

[Pa Joe]

Brentwood Bob, What is a puzzle to me is after reading your post about the cracks in your block that you never saw a lot of steam comming out the tail pipe. May be for some reason As are different but any car I ever had with a blown head gasket or a crack that let water in the combustion chamber ran terrible and would blow a lot of steam out the exaust. Just my thoughts.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by Pa Joe

Brentwood Bob, What is a puzzle to me is after reading your post about the cracks in your block that you never saw a lot of steam comming out the tail pipe. May be for some reason As are different but any car I ever had with a blown head gasket or a crack that let water in the combustion chamber ran terrible and would blow a lot of steam out the exaust. Just my thoughts.

I would have to agree. Any crack that let that much water out would make the tail pipe drip constantly and rust between drives even if overnight. I have blocks that were traded in on rebuilds that are cracked pretty bad but never leaked that bad.

[Larry Seemann]

Exhaust gases can get into the cooling system without showing any other signs of a "blown" gasket or cracks in the block. In other words the engine can run well and there not be any coolant in the cylinders. The exhaust gases can find their way from the combustion chamber into the cooling system which does 2 things - displaces the coolant(forces it out the overflow) AND exhaust gases don't cool very well.
So check for exhaust gases in the radiator: You'll need a helper for this so one can run the car and the other can look in the radiator. The driver "loads up" the engine by setting the e-brake, putting the car in high gear, letting out the clutch slowing while keeping the engine running so it doesn't stall - kinda like trying to run over a curb. You don't want to overpower the e-brake and run over your helper and you don't want to stall the engine - just make it work hard. Now look in the radiator - are there exhaust gases coming out the neck? If so, pull the head. If not, change the radiator.
Simple test and no expense. If you pull the head look veeerry carefully for cracks - they're not always obvious. I've been down this road several times with other people's cars and a new head gasket solved every one of them.

[Earle]

The roadster over-heated a couple of times this summer in slow, hot parades. My tired, old original radiator with 80 years worth of accumulated tube and fin damage, detached fins. clogged tubes, etc. just wasn't worth $300-$400 worth of cleaning and repairs. And I'd still have the risk of a failure happening again in a non-repaired area.

I checked out the various options at Brass Works and called and chatted with "Lee". He graciously answered all my technical questions and I ended up buying the 1931 Model A type with 6 fins per inch and fin dimpling. Lee even offered to match the key mounting dimensions off my orig. radiator when I FAX'd him a sketch.

That's professionalism and real customer service! - rare these days.

I just finished installing the new radiator. Beautiful! What an example of detailed craftsmanship, build/material quality, finish, etc. My winged Moto-Meter even fit perfectly in the filler neck. The radiator looks so GOOD in the fully-reassembled car!

I did not re-install the 160 deg. thermostat so I will have lots of cooling margin and never have to face the nasty experience and potential engine-damaging effects of over-heating again.

Extended test drive tomorrow.

Go new! Go Brass Works! Well worth the investment if you can manage it.

Earle

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Larry Seemann

Exhaust gases can get into the cooling system without showing any other signs of a "blown" gasket or cracks in the block. In other words the engine can run well and there not be any coolant in the cylinders. The exhaust gases can find their way from the combustion chamber into the cooling system which does 2 things - displaces the coolant(forces it out the overflow) AND exhaust gases don't cool very well.
So check for exhaust gases in the radiator: You'll need a helper for this so one can run the car and the other can look in the radiator. The driver "loads up" the engine by setting the e-brake, putting the car in high gear, letting out the clutch slowing while keeping the engine running so it doesn't stall - kinda like trying to run over a curb. You don't want to overpower the e-brake and run over your helper and you don't want to stall the engine - just make it work hard. Now look in the radiator - are there exhaust gases coming out the neck? If so, pull the head. If not, change the radiator.
Simple test and no expense. If you pull the head look veeerry carefully for cracks - they're not always obvious. I've been down this road several times with other people's cars and a new head gasket solved every one of them.

what do the exhaust gasses look like?

[MCHinson]

bubbles and frothy coolant...

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by MCHinson

bubbles and frothy coolant...

i have had where just a cooling system running hot will create bubbles (gurgle and puke) especially when its close to boil over.

[MCHinson]

From memory, I think I would recognize it if I saw it again.

He may very well need a new radiator but...

I think I would probably pull the head and put a head gasket on it before I spent the money on a new radiator. I would sure feel stupid if I spent the money on a radiator and still had an overheating engine because of a bad head gasket.

[Mitch//pa]

yea i would at least stick an emissions probe at the radiator and do a sniff test to be sure. he could very easily have 2 problems a cracked head or head gasket from all the running hot from a restricted radiator..

[Earle]

I did fail to mention that I did all of the other diagnostics - comp. test, oil and exhaust inspections, water jacket cleaning & flushing, blocked-thermostat check, etc. before I finally bit the bullet for a costly new radiator.

When I eliminated all other causes of overheating but the radiator, I decided to fix this problem once and permanantly and wast no time and money hoping I could resuscitate my old one. A big ding to the wallet for doing it right and buying a lot of good old-fashioned peace-of mind. (kinda like the way it is in this old car restoration hobby we signed on to!)

Someone asked earlier - "Is this a rich man's hobby?" - no, it's a hobby that sometimes makes rich men poor....

Yes, be darn sure it's the radiator before buying a new one!

[DeBordEngineMan]

OK guys did a lot of thinking today what could be wrong I talked to Brent Terry today and his thoughts was it was not my radiator so he gave me some suggestions to try and check so back to the start. Started with the timing I went by Marco Tahtaras's web page and I had the car out of time as me and Brent talked about today and I said that I thought that I had set the time wrong and I had, also Brent thought that I may be running fuel to lean. Well set timing and filled radiator up with plain water to just about level actually it was over the baffle just a bit, drove the car richer on the fuel and started to drive it up and down road about 1 mile at a time close to the house just in case. I bought a infrared thermometer and I would stop back in my driveway after each mile trip leave the car running and check temp. and I done this for 4 trips and the top hose and I would check the actual hose next to the top tank was a constant temp. of around 165 to 170 and the bottom hose temp was 135 to 140 with the front of the radiator reading just below the Ford emblem was around 100 to 110 which was in front of the fan and it went up to around 150 on the sides and around 130ish at the bottom so I drove the same route that I had taken on previous trips that it overheated and it ran a constant 165 to 170 or close to that at different times in the drive the only time that it got hot was a long gradual grade of about 1 mile and at the top I had a little water come out of the overflow tube and just a small sprinkle on the windshield I stopped at the top of hill and the upper hose reading was jumping all around 211 and I opened the radiator cap and it was steaming a little but not boiling like before on other trips, so I thought I better get home it was overheating but as soon as I started again within maybe 100 yards it cooled down and I drove on and checked again down the road a piece and it was back down to the same readings of top 165 to 170 and bottom 135 to 140 so I drove some more never got any hotter, other than that long pull and water loss was very minimal checked when I got back home and it was still just touching the baffle so in the end I drove about 45 minutes to 1 hour with only the one time she got hot and maybe that is normal because I have never drove a Model A before so don't really know how they act on hills? I am going to drive it some more tomorrow and test some more and see how it go's I do know that the car ran better had more zip after setting time and opening up fuel more, so guys after this extra long post does this sound like all these temperature readings are in the safe normal zone and what about the long climb and getting hot for a few minutes was that "normal" it seems to me that it is cooling "alright" hope to hear from some of you, also one more small problem that I will address in another post to keep things apart, thanks Robert DeBord

[James Rogers]

Sounds like you just about got her fixed. The temps are correct for what you are driving and the high temp is about right for a hill. The engine is working harder up hills so it will produce more heat and even a good radiator will not get rid of it all. The only thing I can suggest is to drive it and monitor it for a while and don't worry about a little coolant loss as long as it is only taking a quart or so to get it back to full, this is it's comfort level. If it looses more than that on long runs, you might want to install a thermostat to slow down the flow so it has more time to cool in the radiator.

I was at Brent's yesterday when he was helping you and we both decided you might have the timing off. Next time we talk I'll explain why I suspected this and how to overcome the urge to get it wrong. I set the timing on LOTS of engines so I probably could do it blindfolded, never missed yet.

[DeBordEngineMan]

Thanks for the information James I had been setting time the way a guy at work had showed me and not the way all the Model A books had said to do I was setting the points to open on a lobe and not the way it should be so I am going to drive some more this afternoon we I get off work, thanks Robert DeBord

[1931 flamingo]

"small sprinkle on the windshield", shouldn't be happening, You said you were running a quail I think, you need to change those gaskets, so NOTHING comes out the cap. But seems like timing may have been your biggest problem, what are you going to do with that "extra" $600 now?
Paul in CT

[Bob S]

Having similar problems, I have been following this discussion with interest. Did your incorrect timing result in the spark being too advanced or too late?

[Larry Seemann]

Too retarded causes overheating. Too advanced causes "pinging" or spark knock.

[Paul from Maine]

My Brassworks radiator maintains a constant 135 degrees (without a thermosat) up hill, down hill, timing advanced, timing retarded, on the turnpike at 50 mph on a hot day and maintains a constant 165 to 170 with a thermostat installed. Its worth it! Spend the money! I spent months try to make my old radiator work. It only worked after I removed the head, changed the leaking head gasket and cleaned out the water jackets. But after all that effort, all I had was a marginal radiator that just barely kept my enegine from over heating. Take the plunge, remove your head, clean the rust out of your water jackets, change that head gasket and buy a new radiator. You will be glad you did!

[Bob S]

I believe that low compression engines like a stock A can be well over-advanced without the pinging that you typically get with higher compression. I know that is particularly easy to do with Model Ts with no audible effect, but usually just a little roughness. I would think that could also cause overheating because the loss of power means more fuel used for for the same work. Also, the earlier combustion would result in more time in the cylinder before the exhaust opens, and therefore more heat absorbed by the water jacket. Make sense? That was the reason for my question.
Bob

[DeBordEngineMan]

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OK guys I know that you all are tired of this post! BUT!! I done some more driving tests today and she never overheated!! I did the same thing as yesterday with the intermediate stops while driving and checked the upper and bottom hoses with a infrared thermometer the top stayed a constant 165 to 170 and the bottom stayed at 135 to 140 all the time went up same long hill to day and I moved the spark advance up a little( I don't really know if you are suppose to do this but I thought that you are but I really don't know?) and checked temp at the top of hill and temp rose about 5 to 7 degrees and the radiator did spill just a small amount of water maybe a pint but never lost anymore and I drove constant for about a hour maybe a little more and she ran great! I know a lot of your all's A's run cooler with the new radiators but if a radiator is running in the ranges that mine is why put a new one on because at 170 in my thoughts are very acceptable maybe I am wrong? Sure I will sometime get a new radiator but if mine is going to stay at these ranges I will leave it on until the extra money comes along. But I also believe that a motor needs to get to a certain temp to perform well but I could be very wrong on that thought? In the end I will continue to use the radiator that I have I think that it will cool sufficiently until it does not perform as it should. I want to thank everyone for there help on this subject, Hope the radiator keeps up at these temperatures, thanks guys Robert DeBord

[MCHinson]

Sounds like you are learning more about your Model A. Glad to hear that you did not waste your money buying a Radiator that you did not need. Have fun driving that Model A!

[marc hildebrant]

So, the source of the overheating was incorrect timing. Any idea how much the timing had to be off to cause the overheating ?

In the discussion, the overheating was severe and then went to a very normal operation. I'm wondering how critical the timing is to cause such a large swing in temperature.

Also, I would think that the extra heat is due to the fact that when the timing was retarded, the engine was very poor at converting energy (gas) to motion (running). As such, with the correct timing, the car must have much more power since the energy is now turning the wheels instead of boiling water.

Marc

[Russ/40]

Thanks for sharing the solution with everyone.

[Paul from Maine]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

did you get it from joe at tams or brattons ?

Tams