Carburetor Problems

[Muttley]

The other night Dad went for a drive when the Coupe started running poorly and sputtering. This morning we added some Sea Foam to the tank, fired it up and let it run for about ten minutes. He took it for a ride around the neighborhood, and it started sputtering and died. The car fired up and he idled home with almost no power. We fired it up again and it will idle decently but when you give it gas it pops out of the carb. I shut it off and while we were discussing rebuliding it I noticed gas dripping from the carb throat and on to the top of the wishbone. Are we looking at a rebulild? I've never rebuilt a carburetor of any kind, how tough of a job is this on a stock Model A?

[J Franklin]

If it is a zenith just undo the bolt that holds the two halves together and see if there is debris in it. if so take the rest off the manifold and give it a good cleaning. dripping is caused by dirt holding the needle valve open or the float isn't floating well.

[Patrick L.]

Does opening the GAV [ turn choke rod counter clockwise 1/2 turn or so] help ?? Is the carburetor getting good fuel flow ?? Try removing the fuel cap.. Is this something that has just happened or has the car not been operated in a long time ?? Has anything recently been done ?? Has the ignition system been checked and is the spark lever being used correctly ??

[Tom Endy]

Sounds like the float valve is staying open and flooding the carburetor. The float may have come un-hinged. Drop the bottom casting off and check the float action. You shold be able to hold the float closed with your fingers and have someone open the fuel valve and there should be no leakage. Check that the float has not sprung a leak and filled with gas and sunk to the bottom leaving the valve open instead of controlling it.

Tom Endy

[Muttley]

Originally Posted by J Franklin

If it is a Zenith just undo the bolt that holds the two halves together and see if there is debris in it. if so take the rest off the manifold and give it a good cleaning. dripping is caused by dirt holding the needle valve open or the float isn't floating well.

Truthfully, I dont know what model it is. It says "MODEL" on the side and has a rectangle with an X in it. The rectangle looks like it should have some other numbers but it doesnt. Here's a pic:

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

Does opening the GAV (turn choke rod counter clockwise 1/2 turn or so) help?

When I closed it completely it started to die (it didnt do that before).

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

Is the carburetor getting good fuel flow?

It seems to be but I cant be positive. The car also wanted to die when I pushed harder on the gas pedal (nearly to the floor).

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

Try removing the fuel cap.

I'll give that a shot tomorrow and report back.

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

Is this something that has just happened or has the car not been operated in a long time?

This is something new, the car had been running fine up until Friday night.

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

Has anything recently been done?

No, there have been no recent changes to the car.

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

Has the ignition system been checked?

Checked how? I just finished changing out the distributor cap, it was cracked and was arcing. It ran better after changing the cap out but its still sputtering and leaking (yes I know the cap has nothing to do with a fuel leak ).

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

.......is the spark lever being used correctly?

Neither Dad or myself have ever owned a stock Model A before so he is just going by the advice I've read here and on other sites. He starts the car with the GAV about 3/4 of a turn open and the spark rod all the way down. He usually keeps the spark rod all the way at the bottom while driving. I still havent been able to find the proper way to adjust the spark rod while the car is going down the road.

[1931 flamingo]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Try what the others said. It's not a zenith, looks like a tilly.
paul in CT

[Mike V. Florida]

Most carb problems are electrical.

[Bob C]

"the spark rod all the way down. He usually keeps the spark rod all the way at the bottom while driving."

This could be part of the problem, need to read the owners manual on using the spark lever.

Bob

[Muttley]

Were fresh out of manuals around here.............I'm guessing the original owner tossed it sometime in the '30's. Any way you could clue me in on how it should be monkeyed with to get it running correctly?

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Muttley

Were fresh out of manuals around here.............I'm guessing the original owner tossed it sometime in the '30's. Any way you could clue me in on how it should be monkeyed with to get it running correctly?

Due to a whole bunch of varables the easiest way seems to be, start the car all the way up, As you drive lower the lever a little and you will notice the speed of the engine will increase. At crusing speed lower the lever a little more until the engine speed no longer increases and stop there.

This may help as well, just found it;

http://www.motormayhem.net/mode-a-fo...owners-manual/

[Muttley]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Due to a whole bunch of varables the easiest way seems to be, start the car all the way up........

I was told if you leave it all the way up when you start it you run the risk of breaking the starter.

[midgetracer]

It is the opposite Muttley. If you leave the spark advanced(down) when you start it, it can kick back and bend the armature or break the bendix. Always start the car in the up (retarded) position. Good luck Muttley

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Muttley

I was told if you leave it all the way up when you start it you run the risk of breaking the starter.

Page 6 of the manual link I provided.

They are cheap, get one for future use from a vendor. Leave it on the seat at car shows.

[Muttley]

Originally Posted by Muttley

I was told if you leave it all the way up when you start it you run the risk of breaking the starter.

Originally Posted by midgetracer

It is the opposite.......

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Page 6 of the manual link I provided.

Thanks for the link, its great to get it straight from the horses mouth, theres lots of bad information floating around out there. I've been told things by one guy and then the next directly contradicts him.

[Ed Saniewski]

Muttley, it might be a vent problem with the gas cap. Start it up and run the engine until it starts to sputter, then unscrew the gas cap and see if that smooths it out. If the cap is venting poorly it will idle, but when you drive it will not allow enough gas fast enough to keep you going

[Muttley]

Originally Posted by Ed Saniewski

Muttley, it might be a vent problem with the gas cap. Start it up and run the engine until it starts to sputter, then unscrew the gas cap and see if that smooths it out. If the cap is venting poorly it will idle, but when you drive it will not allow enough gas fast enough to keep you going.

I'll give it a shot but that wouldnt explain the dripping gas from the carb throat............or would it?

[Arthur1958]

I agree with Tom Endy, above. What you describe sounds like gradual flooding. Does it drip gasoline for a while after acting up? Fuel starvation results in similar symptoms, except for the popping you mentioned. Either way, a stuck float could be the cause. ... By the way, you have a Tillotson Model X carburetor.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

How come no one suggested "tap gently on top front of carb"????

[steve s]

Originally Posted by J Franklin

If it is a zenith just undo the bolt that holds the two halves together and see if there is debris in it. if so take the rest off the manifold and give it a good cleaning. dripping is caused by dirt holding the needle valve open or the float isn't floating well.

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

How come no one suggested "tap gently on top front of carb"????

I agree with the first and last response--this is where to start, especially if you haven't changed anything else. Sounds like dirt coming down from the gas tank has stuck the float and possibly blocked a jet. Take the carb apart and look in the bowl and look in the sediment bowl on the firewall for signs of a dirty gas tank. You might be in for a project cleaning it out, or maybe you'll be lucky and it's just an occasional thing.

Bill's suggestion might fix the sticky float. An easy way to clear blocked idle jet is to momentarily race the motor while momentarily popping the palm of your other hand over the carb's air intake. The tremendous vacuum due to racing motor with intake blocked WILL suck any blockage on through.

Steve

[Tom Wesenberg]

If you have junk in the float needle and seat, try running the engine with the tank valve closed until the engine dies. This will lower the float and may allow the inrush of gas to flush the junk out.

[Muttley]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

How come no one suggested "tap gently on top front of carb"????

Originally Posted by steve s

An easy way to clear blocked idle jet is to momentarily race the motor while momentarily popping the palm of your other hand over the carb's air intake. The tremendous vacuum due to racing motor with intake blocked WILL suck any blockage on through.

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

If you have junk in the float needle and seat, try running the engine with the tank valve closed until the engine dies. This will lower the float and may allow the inrush of gas to flush the junk out.

I'll try all three of these suggestions later tonight and report back.

[Fred K-OR]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

How come no one suggested "tap gently on top front of carb"????

The carb on my Huckster will sometimes leak gas. Doing what Bill suggest here solves my problem with the leaking carb.

You also mentioned you changed the distributor cap. Could it be that some how you may have rotated the cam in the distributor so that the thing is out of time?? Just a wild guess because if it was really out of time, it should not run much at all. But it may be worth a check on your distributor.

But another reason to check the distributor in that you mentioned you or your Dad would start it with the spark lever all the way down. I know if I do this with my cars it kicks the starter all over the place. So maybe being it is way out of time, it allowed you to have the spark lever all the way down without damage to your starter.

[Muttley]

Tried all the above suggestions and nothing helped. Its really hard to rev the car up, you have to feather the gas pedal to keep it from conking out and having to re-start it.

Originally Posted by Fred K-OR

You also mentioned you changed the distributor cap. Could it be that some how you may have rotated the cam in the distributor so that the thing is out of time?? Just a wild guess because if it was really out of time, it should not run much at all. But it may be worth a check on your distributor.

I only changed the cap because there was a crack in it that had been there for at least two months (since Dad bought it). I didnt mess with the guts of the distributor, just the cap.

[Muttley]

Originally Posted by Arthur1958

What you describe sounds like gradual flooding. Does it drip gasoline for a while after acting up?

Yes, it drips from the carb throat after it's shut off.

[Charles Coe]

Sounds like Mike V. could be right with his comment about electrical problems. Could it be a bad condenser?

[Muttley]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

This morning I pulled the line off the carb, drained the tank and blew compressed air back through the tank. Everything looked fine so on to step two. I then pulled the carb off and took it apart. There was a tiny amount of junk in the bottom of the carb but the needle & seat and float looked fine. I blew/wiped it out, put it back together and crossed my fingers. We tried to fire it up but it wont stay running. I was able to get it to run (barely) for about ten seconds once by feathering the choke. On the bottom of the carb where the plug goes there is a tube that extends in to the top of the carb. When I pulled the plug out I tried to unscrew the jet underneath but it tightend up so I stopped. I wasnt sure how far to screw it back in so I just went in all the way with it............is this correct? At this point I'm about ready to just give up and tell Dad to either have someone who knows Model A's look at it or tear it out and drop in a Hemi.

[Muttley]

Originally Posted by Charles Coe

Could it be a bad condenser?

Anything is possible but I have no idea how to check that.

[HRJ]

A bad condensor for the ignition typically wont make the carb leak fuel.
Is the Needle in the carb good, clean and supple? They can get hard over time and not seal against the seat properly. You should be able to gently push a fingernail into it and see it deform. Dont push so hard as to damage it though.
On this site we cant discuss dropping in a Hemi. You could however discus an A-V8 conversion (I think).

[Muttley]

Originally Posted by HRJ

A bad condensor for the ignition typically wont make the carb leak fuel.

Uhh...........yeah, I know that. If its not working properly and the coil cant fire it wont burn the gas though, correct?

Originally Posted by HRJ

Is the Needle in the carb good, clean and supple?

I didnt notice any rubber on it, I thought it was all metal.

Originally Posted by HRJ

On this site we cant discuss dropping in a Hemi. You could however discuss an A-V8 conversion (I think).

What about a Nailhead?

I'm going to pull it off tomorrow and tear into it again. I've got a carb kit on order, hopefully it will be here on Monday. I'm also waiting to hear back from another Ford Barner thats offered to give me a hand with it.

[HRJ]

Yes, could make not burn fuel and run poor. But too much fuel wont burn with a stock well maintained A ignition either.
Could be all metal, I am not really a Model A guy myself. Just giving general mechanical mis-information.
No, no, no. Nailhead is not allowed here! FLATHEAD is good here. Funny you say nailhead, almost like you know me!

[Charles Coe]

Even though the condenser has nothing to do with the carb leaking, it could be keeping it from running right. I've had them go bad and the car would run fine at idle but would not run at speed. Swap the condenser for a new one and see if it makes a difference.

[Muttley]

Decided to wait until the re-build kit arrives (should get it Tuesday) and go from there. Once the carb is freshened up and I try and get it going I'll report back.

[rollingsculpture]

sounds mostly like a vacuum leak from the intake manifold try spraying wd40 on the manifold while running and see if it gets sucked into the engine , i would also see if there is anyone around who will let you borrow a different carb . i have a few of the carbs like that sears or model x tilly and find they run too lean , i would stick with either a reg zenith or even a b carb if one comes along . wish you lived closer i would ship one to you that i know works than you can get on with the next problem. YES there will always be a next something , that is why it is important to drive these cars so you can figure out whats not working, they just dont get enough driving if you only use them in parades or idling in the driveway.

[dumb person]

Could be an intake manifold leak happened and you only noticed the gas leak when you were looking at it? My car has an incorrectly installed gasket and runs somewhat like you described. It also leaks from the carb' but has done that for months now.

[dr.j]

Find an a local Model A club in your area and ask for assistance. I am willing to bet that someone close would more than welcome a chance to help and probably has a spare carb to swap out as a quick test. I keep a good spare carb in my spares box and it has spent more time on other cars to prove a problem than on my own car.

[ora masters]

check ALL of your wires in the last 2 weeks mw spedster died while driving 2 times one time coil wire was loose last time wire was loose in junkcent box like others have said sounds like float valve or float ps i did not make an a in spelling in school ora

[rusted]

I had the same exact problem with my car three weeks ago. I took the carb off and cleaned it. Same problem! Just for the hell of it, I replaced the condenser and all is like new again!! Try itr, you'll like it!!!

[Muttley]

I'm still waiting for the carb kit from Sacramento Vintage Ford, it should be here tomorrow. After the carb is freshened up I'll try the condenser if there are still problems. The mounting flange on the carb is warped pretty bad. I spent some time this afternoon sanding and filing, its better now but still not perfect. I'd have to take off a ton of material to get it perfect. Would it be a good idea to soak the gasket in water to get it to swell up a little before I install it or is that just going to be a waste of time and possibly ruin it?

[midgetracer]

I'd file it flat even if it took off a bunch. A leaky seal will cause the engine to run lean and that may be what you are seeing.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I've heard of a couple guys bolting the flange to a straight steel plate and baking the carb in the oven to reshape the flange. Come to think of it maybe they used a large C clamp to put pressure on the steel plate against the warped flange, as it baked.

[Muttley]

Originally Posted by midgetracer

I'd file it flat even if it took off a bunch.

Thats precisely what I didnt want to see. It woul be great if I knew someone who could mill it flat, with a straight edge you can see about 1/32 of an inch of daylight in some places. I've taken so much material off that the small lip just inside the throat of the carb mounting flange is in danger of disappearing.

[Muttley]

Spent all afternoon in the garage reassembling the carb, putting in a new set of plugs, points and condenser (took forever to get that little screw in on the driver side). Attempted to set the timing with instructions over the phone from a friend of mine. Pushed it out of the garage, tried to fire it up and nothing. I seriously hate this car and I think it knows that. I've got a friend coming over in the morning to check it out and see if we can get it running again.

[Bob C]

The timing instructions are on page 23-24 of the link Mike gave you in post #10

Bob

[Muttley]

I just read through those instructions and they are about as confusing as advanced calculus.

[Bob C]

Try Marco's timing instructions, it has more pictures.
http://www.abarnyard.com/workshop/timing.htm

Bob

[Muttley]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Thanks for the link.

[columbiA]

"A" condensers can be changed very quickly if you remove the RH screw first,then remove LH screw by keeping slight pressure on screw driver so that screw doesnt fall out.Then new one can be inserted & LH screw installed.RH screw can be put in & both screws tightened up.Does not take more than a few minutes. Once timing is mastered its only a 5 minute job & no need to retime multiple times to get it dead on.

[Muttley]

Originally Posted by Bob C

Try Marco's timing instructions, it has more pictures.
http://www.abarnyard.com/workshop/timing.htm

Using that link and a little brain power I got it going again. It could still use a tiny bit of fine tuning but it is running and driving again.