46 T5 swap issues / questions

[Flatkid8]

Fellas,

Ive recently aquired a fairly solid and decent 46 Super Deluxe with a 53 8BA but otherwise completly stock drivetrain. My plans are to keep the flatty and use the car as a daily driver. Im seriously considering doing a T5 swap but am unsure how extensive the surgery will get and looking for advice from someone who has been there and done it. I will more than likely keep the banjo and do the open shaft conversion unless it is recommended or easier just do a rear end swap and run parallel leafs. Im aware of the 2 styles of T5's and the shifter positions and will probably go with an S10 style for forward shifter placement.

These are my questions,

1. Do the front wishbones have to be split and if so is it a big deal to get them repositioned correctly?

2. Does the X frame have to be partially cut to clear the T5 tail housing and if so is this a big deal and is strength compromised?

3. I know chasis engineering makes some sort of plate for the bottom of the X frame and I believe it had fittings to attach the split bone to...is this adapter necessary or would it make things easier?

4. Would I be better off converting the old banjo to open or just swap the rear to something modern with parallel leafs?

5. The tunnel in the floor pan appears farily flat so Im guessing it will need "massaged" or cut...is this the case? If so to what extent?

As of now the car runs and drives great other than synchros in trans are shot and I am wanting an O/D for daily driving. The rear seems fine with no unusual noises and has I beleive 3.54ish gears?

Any and all "been there and done that" advice is welcomed and appreciated.

Thanks

Dennis

[barnfind]

Best info I have found is a thread for a 1936 conversion on the HAMB site that has a couple of good pictures:
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=575176

You might have better luck with T5 questions on that forum.

[VeryTangled]

Hi Dennis, Welcome to the FordBarn Forums! Please remember your car is yours to do with what you want. Your money, your decisions, all good with me. The only thing important is if it makes you happy. But...

Gulp, My vote is for none of that. When I hear parallel springs it hurts deep down.

Ford had a pretty good system figured out. I'm not smart enough to make that work better. I am smart enough to make what it is work perfectly.

I admit, my dad and I went through every system on our car short of a new engine and radiator to turn it into a sweet driving beast, really, every system. It was time and money very well spent. I wouldn't hesitate to jump in and drive 3k miles tomorrow, well, over the next four or five days anyway.

What kind of daily driving do you do that the rear is holding you back? Our car has 3.78's with a stock 3 speed and 21 stud engine, a combination that gets me to 65 MPH. My opinion is if that's not fast enough, then that is what the passing lane is made for. With 3.54's a fresh car of your vintage should roll at 70 easily. Is that not enough, just askin'?

My vote is get it to drive safely, and do that for a year. While doing that start your list of what you need to switch. After calm consideration, make it your car, but please consider if someone wants to put it back to today's condition.

-VT/JeffH

[TomT/Williamsburg]

[QUOTE=Flatkid8;776712]Fellas,

Ive recently aquired a fairly solid and decent 46 Super Deluxe with a 53 8BA but otherwise completly stock drivetrain. My plans are to keep the flatty and use the car as a daily driver. Im seriously considering doing a T5 swap but am unsure how extensive the surgery will get and looking for advice from someone who has been there and done it. I will more than likely keep the banjo and do the open shaft conversion unless it is recommended or easier just do a rear end swap and run parallel leafs. Im aware of the 2 styles of T5's and the shifter positions and will probably go with an S10 style for forward shifter placement.

These are my questions,

1. Do the front wishbones have to be split and if so is it a big deal to get them repositioned correctly?
This all depends on the car and your view for the mod. My experience is with 40 and 32 Fords. In my 40 I used a 4-bar FE system, eliminating the wishbone, but allowing the tranny to be removed from underneath. In my 32 I left the wishbones in and I have to remove the engine to get to the tranny. Use the Chassis engineering kit to reposition them should you split them - makes life easier.
2. Does the X frame have to be partially cut to clear the T5 tail housing and if so is this a big deal and is strength compromised?
I removed the center portion of the X-frame (what connects both sides together) in my 40 - I think you could probably cut and trim a bit to make it fit. It just depends on whether you want to be able to remove the tranny from underneath - keep that in mind - and the split wishbone setup allows for you to have a tranny mount.
3. I know chasis engineering makes some sort of plate for the bottom of the X frame and I believe it had fittings to attach the split bone to...is this adapter necessary or would it make things easier?
As I've said, yes - for the first timer, this is the simplest way to go.
4. Would I be better off converting the old banjo to open or just swap the rear to something modern with parallel leafs?
Yes - I would do this - I have done it both ways and really, to keep the entire look and feel of your car, I would convert the banjo rear. Get an S10 driveshaft, measure, and have it cut and balanced to the correct length.
5. The tunnel in the floor pan appears farily flat so Im guessing it will need "massaged" or cut...is this the case? If so to what extent?
In my 40 the hole for the shifter was right in front of the seat - I would imagine it's close tot he same in the 46. Plug up the old and cut the new hole.


As of now the car runs and drives great other than synchros in trans are shot and I am wanting an O/D for daily driving. The rear seems fine with no unusual noises and has I beleive 3.54ish gears?

Any and all "been there and done that" advice is welcomed and appreciated.

I'm assuming you would also like to drive this car long distance as well as your daily so hence the change to the 5-speed. You can also do this with a Mitchell o-drive system - it does cost more up front but the engineering and help on your install are great. Going this way eliminates modifying your frame - nice should you ever want to go back to stock.

Couple things to consider - your "weak" points or the items that will cause you the most grief on the flattie when driving long distance at speed are: water pumps, ignition, and charging. Consider a set of Skips water pumps, an electronic distributor by Bubbas, and a powergen generator (with an alternator inside), using your present pieces as "spares". This allows you to retain the stock look and have the ability to go completely back to stock. Whether you stay 6 volt pos grnd or go 12 volt negative grnd is up to you.
You will definitely have to keep up with your brakes and I would go to a 70-72 Mustang dual reservoir drum-drum master cylinder. There's a converter which will allow you to keep your stock pedal setup. Check over your brakes lines VERY well and to be truthful, unless they are new, replace them.

Just remember - you are not driving this in parades but every day. That's a whole different ballgame and you need to keep after your car much much more frequently.

Good luck ....

[Richard in Florida]

Originally Posted by Flatkid8

Im aware of the 2 styles of T5s and the shifter positions and will probably go with an S10 style for forward shifter placement.

There are THREE shifter positions: S10, AstroVan, and Mustang/Camaro. The Astro Van is in between the other two. That's what I used.

Be aware also that most S10 boxes have a 4.03 first gear which is all but unusable. There are MANY different gear sets and in most cases any gear set can be installed in any T5 box.

Don't just drag home a T5 from a junkyard and go through the entire installation process hoping everything's OK inside. The goal is to install it just ONCE.

[Andy]

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Put a set of 3.25 gears in if you want to have higher speed.
You are completly re-enginering the driveline to go to the T5. The frame center would be cut up and weakened. The rear end would need to be changed to open drive and have all the problems with that deal. You get into driveshaft angle. You would need new rear radius rods and mounting brackets on the rear and the frame. I have seen all this done badly more times than sucessfully.

[TomT/Williamsburg]

The S10 boxes w/4.06 first gear are easily weeded out by checking the tag numbers on the T5. The tag is located on the driver side of the trans hanging on a bolt that hold the tailshaft to the main portion of the tranny. The number starts with 1352-xxx and is along the bottom edge of the tag. Flaternie on the HAMB has a whole host of information on T5s. Of course you can always put the tranny in first and check the revolutions .... however, the 4.06 first gear trannies are coveted for their mechanical speedo output tailshaft. From sometime in 88-92, they were all electronic speedo output but had a nicer first gear. The optimal setup is an 88-92 tranny with early mech output tailshaft. There is a conversion procedure out there to convert the electronic output to mechanical but it is rather involved. There is also a unit to convert the S10 electronic to mechanical output - check 700R4s conversations on Vette sights - but it is an expensive unit. Also Autometer has a speedo that will take the S10 electronic output. Again, more info w/flaternie on the HAMB.

As for the open drive deal, you can create a bracket to hold the rear radius rods and probably 39-40 rear radius rods and using the Hotrodworks setup would work. Yes, some will do it badly as Andy says but it can be done. My avatar has had it done using a 35-36 rear setup and its been to Bonneville and back and everywhere inbetween - 10K+ miles mostly at 70-75 MPH - no problems so far. Not trying to start anything - just stating what I've done and how it has held up. A large car like your 46 might be a different story. Now, remember that the 42-47 Ford p-ups had open drive rears and I believe were hung with a parallel leaf setup? Would be great if you could check one of these out to see how it is configured and perhaps go from there with that styled setup.

Finally I talked about the Mitchel overdrive unit in my previous post. I think you are getting an idea of the time and cost to do the T5 and perhaps the "no brainer" of the Mitchell would be a better choice. A buddy of mine with a 32 did it in a weekend, it wasn't cheap, but he's up and running.

One final thing - I believe the flathead needs 2 things to run successfully - run above 2K rpm and it needs heat. A 5th gear with 1800 rpm at say 65-75 and a flattie would require you to downshift at every little hill. Believe me - I know. Do the math for your final drive output at say 70 - 2500 rpm is about optimal IMHO.

Good luck .....

[Model A Bill]

Originally Posted by Andy

Put a set of 3.25 gears in if you want to have higher speed.
You are completly re-enginering the driveline to go to the T5. The frame center would be cut up and weakened. The rear end would need to be changed to open drive and have all the problems with that deal. You get into driveshaft angle. You would need new rear radius rods and mounting brackets on the rear and the frame. I have seen all this done badly more times than sucessfully.

Yes the driveline will need to be reworked. But you don't have to change the rear end.You can still use your banjo rear and torque tube but the radius rods will need to shortened and repositioned after the torque tube is cut to allow for the longer transmission and adapter.You will also need to fabricate a new transmission mount.Non of the above are extremely difficult but will not happen overnight.Don't personally know a lot about the Columbia 2 speed maybe someone else could explain that a little better.

Bill

[Bassman/NZ]

Originally Posted by Andy

Put a set of 3.25 gears in if you want to have higher speed.
You are completly re-enginering the driveline to go to the T5. The frame center would be cut up and weakened. The rear end would need to be changed to open drive and have all the problems with that deal. You get into driveshaft angle. You would need new rear radius rods and mounting brackets on the rear and the frame. I have seen all this done badly more times than sucessfully.

Not necessarily. This is my F150 o'd box which I modified to fit the torque tube. It's just a matter of cutting off the rear snout, cutting and splining the output shaft, and shortening the torque tube and driveshaft the required amount (if any).

[packyusmc]

Re: T-5 in 46 ford. I have a 38 with Offy heads and 4bbl intake. I doubt if it has more than 100hp. '39 transmission and 3:54 rear end. I would really really like to have an OD of some kind, i think that the F-100 would be a good swap but i dont know for sure. My car as it is (real close to your gearing) will go 70mph easily, the rpms are up a little but not bad with big diameter rear tires. Still have to downshift on not so big hills. But i just cant justify the swap. Any OD you install you are going to have to change rear to at least 3:76 and maybe 4:11. I believe all cars with OD in late 40s and 50s had 4:11. Id fix your trans and go with it. Also that would be a whole lot less expensive. Just my opinion of course.

[jackson32]

I say GO FOR IT a 46 tudor deluxe was my transportation in 1953 and always needed another gear so did the 39 coupe I had back in 05

[felix37]

If you decide to go the parallel rear leaf spring route, go with Chassis Engineering. I used their leaf spring relocation kit on my 37 and did not have to cut anything! everything bolted on using some of the original holes and the ones I needed to drill, the brackets became the template. If I ever wanted to put the banjo back I can! I also used Chassis Engineering's split wish bone kit, It had very detailed instructions and was very easy to do. I also used their 4'' drop axle and spring kit (and disc brake kit) The rear end I used was a Buick Grand National posi-trac. The width was almost exactly the same as my original banjo rear. My car is a pleasure to drive and handles GREAT, especially with Chassis Engineering's front and rear sway bars! My car is a EVERYDAY driver and I can dart in and out of traffic at 75 MPH all day long with no body roll! stopping is not an issue either! many people will tell you not to make the T-5 swap and keep the chassis stock and that's OK! I enjoy the stock cars too! but there really is no comparison between the stock suspension and the way it is now. And other than being lowered, the average person does not know any difference from stock!

[jackson32]

the 37 I had a while back I put Chassis Eng. spring shock mounts tube shocks hydrolic brakes made that car drive right and it stoped great. Chassis Eng. makes good parts and they fit.

[Timberbeast]

I've seen this setup on a local car and seems to have worked out real well.
T-5 5 speed in a Torque Tube:
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=256226
You may have to shorten your torque tube and drive shaft.

[flatford8]

My T5 has a sticker on the top. I googled the part# and you can find a chart that has all the ratio's, year of the vehicle it came in. If you go to www.thirdgen.org / calculations there are formulas for your trans ratio, rpm, rear end ratio and tire size. These will really help you with this swap should you decide to continue. ....Mark

[Flatkid8]

Originally Posted by VeryTangled

Hi Dennis, Welcome to the FordBarn Forums! Please remember your car is yours to do with what you want. Your money, your decisions, all good with me. The only thing important is if it makes you happy. But...

Gulp, My vote is for none of that. When I hear parallel springs it hurts deep down.

Ford had a pretty good system figured out. I'm not smart enough to make that work better. I am smart enough to make what it is work perfectly.

I admit, my dad and I went through every system on our car short of a new engine and radiator to turn it into a sweet driving beast, really, every system. It was time and money very well spent. I wouldn't hesitate to jump in and drive 3k miles tomorrow, well, over the next four or five days anyway.

What kind of daily driving do you do that the rear is holding you back? Our car has 3.78's with a stock 3 speed and 21 stud engine, a combination that gets me to 65 MPH. My opinion is if that's not fast enough, then that is what the passing lane is made for. With 3.54's a fresh car of your vintage should roll at 70 easily. Is that not enough, just askin'?

My vote is get it to drive safely, and do that for a year. While doing that start your list of what you need to switch. After calm consideration, make it your car, but please consider if someone wants to put it back to today's condition.

-VT/JeffH

Thanks for the welcome!

To answer a few of your questions, I bought the 46 back in August and apparently it had been sitting for many years. After doing some minor repairs and working out a few bugs, I have been driving the car daily since for running around locally. As a matter of fact, I like driving the car so much and it gets so much attention "as is" looking like it was just drug out of a barn with 50 years of patina, I don't have any plans to fix, change, or alter anything on the body. With that being said, ive now decided I want to keep it and make it a daily driver with the ability to drive on my 120 mile interstate commute to work if I so desire. Your right, it will cruise at 70 MPH effortlessly but im not really wanting to spin a 60+ year old Flathead to 3K-3500K RPM and hold it for 2 hours each day. Like you I do not believe in hacking up old steel and don't plan to do anything more extensive that couldn't be reversed if so desired. I only plan to make enough changes so that it would be practical and safe for a daily driver.

Dennis

[Flatkid8]

[QUOTE=TomT/Williamsburg;776908]

Originally Posted by Flatkid8

Couple things to consider - your "weak" points or the items that will cause you the most grief on the flattie when driving long distance at speed are: water pumps, ignition, and charging. Consider a set of Skips water pumps, an electronic distributor by Bubbas, and a powergen generator (with an alternator inside), using your present pieces as "spares". This allows you to retain the stock look and have the ability to go completely back to stock. Whether you stay 6 volt pos grnd or go 12 volt negative grnd is up to you.
You will definitely have to keep up with your brakes and I would go to a 70-72 Mustang dual reservoir drum-drum master cylinder. There's a converter which will allow you to keep your stock pedal setup. Check over your brakes lines VERY well and to be truthful, unless they are new, replace them.

Just remember - you are not driving this in parades but every day. That's a whole different ballgame and you need to keep after your car much much more frequently.

Good luck ....

Tom,

Thanks for the reply...the water pumps have been rebuilt, I added a Bubbas dist 2 weeks ago and im extremely pleased, I will be adding front disc this winter along with seat belts, plan to go 12 V, and im getting ready to install an electric fuel pump for backup. I think this should cover most of my reliability and safety concerns. You had mentioned the Mitchell O/D... although im sure that would be an excellent set up im not sure its what im looking for. I would have the initial high expense of the unit, still have a worn out 3sp that would need rebuilt, and would still be left with non syncro 1st gear. At this point I think the T5 is going to serve my needs best.

Dennis

[Flatkid8]

Originally Posted by Richard in Florida

There are THREE shifter positions: S10, AstroVan, and Mustang/Camaro. The Astro Van is in between the other two. That's what I used.

Be aware also that most S10 boxes have a 4.03 first gear which is all but unusable. There are MANY different gear sets and in most cases any gear set can be installed in any T5 box.

Don't just drag home a T5 from a junkyard and go through the entire installation process hoping everything's OK inside. The goal is to install it just ONCE.

Richard,

I was aware of the common undesirable 1st gear in the S10 T5, but was not aware there were 3 different shifter locations. Are the Astro T5's hard to find? It doesn't seem they would be too common...

Dennis

[Flatkid8]

Originally Posted by Bassman/NZ

Not necessarily. This is my F150 o'd box which I modified to fit the torque tube. It's just a matter of cutting off the rear snout, cutting and splining the output shaft, and shortening the torque tube and driveshaft the required amount (if any).

Bassman,

I have heard of the Jeep T5 adapters to adapt to the torque tube...is this the same deal? If so is anyone making the adapter and if so how much to they run? I already have a couple Jeep T5's laying around that would make excellent candidates...

Dennis

[Flatkid8]

Originally Posted by packyusmc

Re: T-5 in 46 ford. I have a 38 with Offy heads and 4bbl intake. I doubt if it has more than 100hp. '39 transmission and 3:54 rear end. I would really really like to have an OD of some kind, i think that the F-100 would be a good swap but i dont know for sure. My car as it is (real close to your gearing) will go 70mph easily, the rpms are up a little but not bad with big diameter rear tires. Still have to downshift on not so big hills. But i just cant justify the swap. Any OD you install you are going to have to change rear to at least 3:76 and maybe 4:11. I believe all cars with OD in late 40s and 50s had 4:11. Id fix your trans and go with it. Also that would be a whole lot less expensive. Just my opinion of course.

Packyusmc,

I completely disagree...A good friend of mine is running a T5 in a Flathead powered 49 coupe loaded down with A/C, P/S and every other bell and whistle possible. It was originally a 3.73 rear gear. He borrowed a 3.31 set I had and swapped it in for a trial run. 30K miles later he is still running a 3.31 and absolutely loves it. His only complaint is the extremely low first gear which would be even further amplified with a 3.73 or 4.11. I realize there are several different gearset options for the T5, but I believe the final drive although not exact is similar.

Dennis