Motor rebuild

[1928Pickuppain]

So i am thinking about a motor rebuild next winter. I want my truck to be reliable and strong. I have herd that the babbit bearings have about a 40,000 mile life span this doset seem to be that good i drove 27,000 miles on my jeep this year and if thats so I realy dont want to be doing a rebuild every 2 years. I have talked to alot of people who have all suggested different things from insert bearings to balenced crank shafts to presurizing the oil. I dont know exactley what the plusses or minuses are of these different options. If you were rebuilding this motor for you own car planing on driveing it daily and at highway speeds 50-55 mph and you want it to last atleast 80 to 100 thousand miles. If this was your engine and your needs what would you do and what modifications would you do to get there; what are the benifits of these mods? Also with all the modificafications that can be done to it what is the best posible life span ill get out of it.

[glenn in camino]

I think insert bearings and full oil pressure are the most important things you could do to make it last.

[RonC]

Talk to J&M in Southborough MA. http://jandm-machine.com/index.html

[Jim Parker Toronto]

The first thought would be is how deep are your pockets. The are a lot of options out there, and most of them are good. Balanced crank, lightened flywheel, overdrive transmission all come to mind and maybe lower your expectations a little to 45-50mph to gain that much longevetity.

[Glenn C.]

If money was no object, and I wanted a dependable 50-55mph daily driver, I would sure look into a Donovan engine. IMO, for what you want out of a Model A engine 75,000-100,000 miles, you had better spend the dollars, and forget the more conventional Model A overhaul methods.

[Jim Brierley]

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Terry Burtz is coming out with a new 5-main block that looks identical to the stock A. It will have pressure oiling and insert bearings. He plans on having the first one running at the MARC Meet in San Diego this June. If I were building your existing engine, I would go with babbitt and dip oiling with a full flow filter and pressure to the center main. Full pressure adds to the rear main leak problem. I just did an all babbitt lower end for my 4-port Riley, I am running a B block in my Bonneville car with the same block, C crank and babbitt mains that I have run since the mid 70's. Last year it went 156 MPH and the mains still look great. (it is full pressure)

[Jerry in Shasta]

It's nice to have a fast "Model A", BUT do you have fast brakes and steering to control that fast "model A"?

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

Terry Burtz is coming out with a new 5-main block that looks identical to the stock A. It will have pressure oiling and insert bearings. He plans on having the first one running at the MARC Meet in San Diego this June. If I were building your existing engine, I would go with babbitt and dip oiling with a full flow filter and pressure to the center main. Full pressure adds to the rear main leak problem. I just did an all babbitt lower end for my 4-port Riley, I am running a B block in my Bonneville car with the same block, C crank and babbitt mains that I have run since the mid 70's. Last year it went 156 MPH and the mains still look great. (it is full pressure)

Jim, is there a real good way to stop a rear main leak that actuality works, on a pressure system, we don't have any leaks with a standard motor. That seems to be the only draw back to one of the toughest motors ever built. thanks Herm.

[Kevin in NJ]

Let start with the Ford Fargo Service Letters on January 12, 1928 last paragraph:

In making actual demonstrations, you should not be required to offer any apologies for the car. We advertise 60 to 65 miles per hour and your will do that if it is properly handled. You have very efficient brakes, you have a wonderful pick-up, and when you give demonstrations these factors should all be brought to the attention of the prospects riding with you.


Talked to more than one guy who were above 80K on babbitt and running 55+ all the time. There is a lot to knowing how to drive the A. If you lug the engine too much you cause more wear. In any event, you want the engine done right.


I think you might do well having a talk on the phone with Herm.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Jerry in Shasta

It's nice to have a fast "Model A", BUT do you have fast brakes and steering to control that fast "model A"?

MINE DO!!


With regard to doing 55mph, one would think 'common sense' should prevail. On the other hand Jerry, I heard awhile back that anymore, 'common sense' really isn't that "common" these days. Maybe your point is well taken!!

.

[Dave in MN]

To: 1928Pickuppain

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24911

I posted a list of engine modifications that IMO should allow a Model A engine to provide the service you are requesting. Look for post #8 after following the link above.

Note that Jerry in Shasta suggested better steering and brakes. I agree...completely and would also add better lighting both front and rear and seat belts to Jerry's list.

There is quite a bit of commentary in this entire thread (more than my post)...it would be worth your time to check it out.

Good Day!
Dave in MN
www.durableperformance.net

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by RonC

Talk to J&M in Southborough MA. http://jandm-machine.com/index.html

Very good choice, you can lick off their floors, state of the art rebuilding machines, pride in there work, and the best of all, they stand behind there work, a 100%. Herm.

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

If I were building your existing engine, I would go with babbitt and dip oiling with a full flow filter and pressure to the center main. Full pressure adds to the rear main leak problem. I just did an all babbitt lower end for my 4-port Riley, I am running a B block in my Bonneville car with the same block, C crank and babbitt mains that I have run since the mid 70's. Last year it went 156 MPH and the mains still look great. (it is full pressure)

Jim,
Is your car driven regularly on the street? Do you tour with it? If an A has a OHV conversion with higher compression and is driven on freeways how long would you expect a drip oiled, babbitted lower end to hold up? Does the rear main leak problen still appear with a modern rear main seal?

I would rather be on the safe side with inserts, pressure and counterbalanced crank.

[Kirby1374]

Originally Posted by Jerry in Shasta

It's nice to have a fast "Model A", BUT do you have fast brakes and steering to control that fast "model A"?

Uh-Oh, here we go again. The words "fast" and "Model A" sure make some folks scared.

P.S. I didn't know 50mph was fast

[Jordan]

You just have to drive your car the way it WANTS to be driven. It doesn't matter if the motor was built to go 65 mph all day, if they body and chassis cant hold up to it, forget it. You have to get to know your car. Each one drives differently. If your car drives nicely at 65 mph, then go for it.

[Jim Brierley]

You bet I do, we even have a parachute on the lakester!

[Jim Brierley]

The rear main is always a problem as there are several places for leaks to come from. I like the Burtz seal best. The bolts must be sealed, the cap/block parting surface, etc. I did my first pressurized Model A recently and had a massive leak from the outside of the aluminum slinger, the cap doesn't quite cover enough back there on the A. Model B's are easier but you must still be careful.

[Jim Brierley]

Chris, I drive my tudor regularly, including lots of freeway. It has a B block, Eubanks 'C' crank, full pressure, full inserts and a Ryan overdrive. For many years I had only 1 Model A, a late pickup. It had a B block, C crank, stock oiling except for a full-flow filter, B trans and Columbia rear end. At the time I only put about 2,000 miles per year on it but that included a yearly run from LA to Los Vegas to visit Ed Winfield. It was full babbitt done at an LA trade school, .040" under mains and .050" under rods. The only problem I had with the babbitt was caused by too much spark advance and it would ping at times. Re-did the rods, retarded the spark a little and could then pull the hill out of Vegas in OD at a faster speed than before. I drove that engine from 1960 into the early 90's. The babbitt is still good and am now making it a little hotter for my speedster. The speedster is also dipper babbitt B block C crank and I run it pretty hard, with good results.

[Jim Brierley]

p.s. the tudor and pickup both now have 4-port Riley's in them, the pickup a 1936 iron one and the tudor a 90's Butler aluminum one.

[gweilbaker]

MMMMmmm, remember the hot tudor from Sweden or somewhere over there that could run circles around most traffic? It had the aluminum spoke wheels.

GW

[Grapejuice]

Originally Posted by gweilbaker

MMMMmmm, remember the hot tudor from Sweden or somewhere over there that could run circles around most traffic? It had the aluminum spoke wheels.

GW

Didn't that one have a Cosworth motor?

[Richard in Anaheim CA]

That car is coming close to not being called a Model A
anymore.

I run babbit with counterbalanced crank and full pressure. The engine broke at 42,000 miles. The top of a piston broke off. The babbit didn't even need a shim removed.

I generally drive 60/62 mph all day long in overdrive at 1900 rpm.

Jim Brierely: Was that the 10 FWY or the 15 FWY you were driving at 156 mph?

Richard
Anaheim CA

[Dave in Boise]

I think that one had an offenhouser engine, etc.. It was a race car disguised as a Model A.. Ran like stink though.. Look up "Worlds Fastest Model A" on youtube

[gweilbaker]

Yeah, that's the bad girl, thanks Vince.

Dave, are you sure it didn't have one of them "miracle motors" in there?
From what I read on the old barn they were the mostest, bestest, and most reliable mills. Would not that serve 1928Pickuppain well?

GW

[1931 flamingo]

AWESOME! Thank's for sharing Vince. Love your posts and website.
Paul in CT

[1928Pickuppain]

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Hay thanks guys foor all the info and no wise ass statements . I want too keep the same moter I have becouse I have matching vin numbers it just some thing about keeping the motor and frame together like theve been for 83 years. See I have no doubt that model a motors can be strong but I dont realy beleve that there any one out there that can rebuild them like henry made them. My motor now must have an incredible amount of miles on it but i realy dont know how many. It was a daily driver its entire life only was ever parked for 6 years when I bought it. The story goes the origonal owner bought it in 28 and drove it as his only car untill 02. His mail man had been asking to by it form him for about 15 years. One day the old man came out asked him if he wanted it and signed it over to him for $1. The old man died that night into the next moring. the mail man turned around as he was in his 60s and out fit it will mail bins in the back and used it as a mail truck for two years. untill he went blind I bought it off of him. He told me in all that time when the old man owned it and when he owned it the motor was never rebuilt. and I pulled the oil pan to put new gaskits on it and it realy did look never tamperd with. So theres no doubt the model A motor was built strong but can they be rebuilt equaly as strong i feel i dont beleve and thats why i feel thers needs for mods make it strong like way back when.
probley sounds crazy lol.

[Ian Crawford]

Jordan is 100% correct.

[Ian Crawford]

Originally Posted by jordan

you just have to drive your car the way it wants to be driven. It doesn't matter if the motor was built to go 65 mph all day, if they body and chassis cant hold up to it, forget it. You have to get to know your car. Each one drives differently. If your car drives nicely at 65 mph, then go for it.

100%

[J and M Machine]

IMG_5687.JPG

IMG_4654.jpgQuote: See I have no doubt that model a motors can be strong but I dont realy beleve that there any one out there that can rebuild them like henry made them.

You're right as we build them better now with hardened valve seats and balancing them and using better materials than Henry ever thought of.
www.jandm-machine.com

[Joe K]

One of the "defects" I have considered in modern rebuilding is that a "ground crank" may be fine for use with pressurized lubrication (i.e. the crank journals are literally "buoyed" upon a pressure film of oil) and surface roughness becomes inconsequential to the life of the assembly. But modern ground cranks don't work nearly so well on a boundary lubrication situation like Ford's steel on babbitt.

Ford "superfinished" the crankshafts to achieve an original surface roughness almost unachievable at commercial crank grinders today. The "break in" of engines on the test stand (extant picture) was almost more for the "rest" of the motor. Things which Ford couldn't control in manufacturing, things like cylinder walls/ring match.




The 26K original mile AA truck chassis comes to mind. Engine was "loose" but very drive-able - not quite into the "whuppa-whuppa" stage. I drove it before the body was removed and I took the rolling powered chassis home. But that engine had probably NEVER been opened for a shim adjustment.

One person whose knowledge of these things I respect considered that the 75K was about the life of ANY motor without a filter/air cleaner - so Ford MAY have had that in mind. But the question may be was the crankshaft/lower end sized to the life of the unfiltered cylinders above it, or the other way around?

As to life - expect to change out shims perhaps three times in a 75K life of the motor. My truck (avatar) was on its 2nd motor (painted red) and that thoroughly worn out. (probably an Allstate Motor Replacement) The odometer read 43K miles (i.e. 143K miles)

I hope my rebuilder Knight Automotive can enter in and comment here. He's retired now but stops in occasionally for exactly that.

Six Million Dollar Man comes to mind: We can rebuild him. We have the technology. We can make him better, than he was. Better, stronger, faster.

The red paint will help...


Joe K