12 Volt Conversion

[rheltzel]

1. Who sells the best 6 to 12 volt conversion package?

2. Do Mallory electronic ignition systems care if a 12V system is positive or negative ground?

[Charlie Stephens]

Regardless of the answer about the Mallory run negative ground like all of the other modern cars so you can use modern electronics.

Charlie Stephens

[Ed Pitts]

What year car and engine do you want to do the conversion on? Ed

[rheltzel]

'35; 29A w/4" Merc crank

[cmbrucew]

Try Sacramento Vintage Ford.
Close to you.
Bruce


http://www.vintageford.com/

[AnthonyG]

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You will spend too much looking for a kit. Save your money, all you need to do is change all your bulbs to 12V bulbs, you can get them at several antique car suppliers, next any of your gauges & electric motors, i.e. heater motor also radio if you have one which require the 6V will need a resistor between current feed and gauge / motor to reduce the voltage from 12 to 6. Also available at many antique auto suppliers. You only have to be concerned with the electric fuel gauge it will need a resistor, some have a mechanical which won't need. Your amp meter won't need a resistor as it doesn't care about volts it just measures amps. Change your ground to a negative. That is switch your pos chassis ground to neg. ground on the chassis. ( negative battery terminal to chassis ). Buy a 12 V alternator or generator or alternator for $100 + or - ( 12V generator available for '35 will bolt in, alternator will need new bracket from any supplier, i.e. Speedway, Jegs) If your harness is in good shape the 6V to 12V doesn't matter, or replace with stock harness. The original harness requirements are actually heavier gauge than 12V requirements so will work fine. Make sure all your connections are clean and use electrical grease on them especially the grounds. More grounds better than less.
Good luck and and have fun. All should cost no more than $150 unless you need new harnesses.

[Mike B]

I think it would run more than 150...unless you have parts on hand...if converting to an alternator,,,a few bucks...a bracket for an alternator a few more bucks, coil..a few more bucks, head lights, tail light bulbs,,,the list goes on..



Now that said, I converted my '42 PU to 12 V for near nothing, but I had the Alt, solenoid needed, headlights and made my own bracket...etc...but starting from scratch, for sure will be well over 150 bucks.

[midgetracer]

Skip Haney in Florida will re do your original coil for 12 neg ground. I tried using the original coil with a resistor and had tons of problems until I got a Haney rebuilt coil. No problems since.

[Drbrown]

A standard wire-coil type ceramic resistor may work for some electric motors i.e. heater, wiper but be careful where you locate it because they can get red-hot and be a fire hazard. Select one rated suitable to amperage draw because goof-ups are not covered by factory guarantee.

RADIO's: The former resistors are not suitable for a radio because the gen/alt puts out varying voltages depending on state of your battery and system operation, and the extremes may harm the radio. Instead, use a combo voltage reducer/regulator that puts out a constant voltage i.e constant 6.8v for a 6v radio. These also produce heat but not as bad as the former. They are not cheap, may go $50-60 but avail in 15a and 20a so you can feed your heater, wipers and radio with one unit, and all to the better.

If you have a radio, check with knowledgeable radio person. Changing from pos to neg ground MAY effect its components, especially your vintage with the old internal vibrator.

[AnthonyG]

All resistors and bulbs under $50, your right on the coil, forgot about that, so add another $35. If you stay with the 12V gen. for your car you won't need the alt. bracket. Generator is $100 + or -. So $50 + $35 + $100. So under $200.

[Kurt in NJ]

I took the easy route ----took the sawsall to a 12V battery and made it into a 6V battery ---nothing on the car to change --I let people think I have 12V because I have bright lights and it cranks fast

[wga]

12 Electrical Conversion
From: Hot Rod Magazine Forum, October 2007, pages 162-164
ELECTRICAL CONVERSIONS
What do I have to do to change over to an electronic ignition on a '49 Ford
original six-volt system, what do I have to change to make it a 12-volt system?
Les Morrill, Humble, TX
To go from 6 to 12 volts, you don't need to change your wires - 6-volt wiring is
twice the thickness required for an equivalent 12-volt circuit. But you do need
a 12-volt battery with the same or greater cold-crank amp rating as the 6-volt
battery it replaces. The 12-volt battery will most likely be standard polarity
(negative ground), but your old Ford is reverse polarity (positive ground).
Therefore you will have to reverse the polarity on selected polarity-sensitive
circuits and electrical devices.
You must address the charging system. You can install a 12-volt generator, but
an alternator is much more efficient. The 6-volt starter and solenoid work: The
starter will crank twice as fast, which means the engine should start more
easily, at the possible cost of slightly reduced starter life. One way to extend
starter life is to actually promote some voltage drop in the crank circuit by
installing a smaller and longer starter cable than standard.
In theory, you can keep the existing points distributor and just install a
12-volt coil-but if you're going to all this trouble to install a modern
electrical system, why not install a modern electronic ignition while you're at
it? MSD has bolt-in flathead Ford billet electronic distributors that work with
its MSD-6 control box. MSD distributor PN 8573 fits '49-53 flatheads originally
equipped with a vertical-mount distributor.
You can retain most 6-volt switches, including the headlight switch, heater
switch, and ignition switch. However, you must replace all 6-volt bulbs -
including the headlights, taillights, brake lights, turn-signal lights, park
lights, and instrument panel and interior bulbs - with 12.volt equivalents. Also
replace the 6-volt turn-signal flasher with a 12.volt unit.
Finally, you'll have to deal with the 6-volt fuel gauges, electric oil and
coolant temperature gauges, electric clocks, and motors like the heater/blower
motor, A/C compressor clutch or solenoid, electric fuel pump, and/or
windshield-wiper motor [stock Fords typically used vacuum-powered windshield
wipers]. However, if it's a custom street rod, you could upgrade everything to
modern 12-volt equivalents. If it's an original factory car, the best solution
is to use an electronic voltage regulator.
Ron Francis is one source for a universal aftermarket version. It markets two
units: PN VR-l is designed to power low-current devices like instruments and
radios with less than 6 watts/channel output. [Positive-ground radios usually
don't respond well and should be converted to 12-volt operation by Antique Auto
Radio or replaced entirely by a modern 12-volt radio.] The higher-current rated
Francis unit (PNVR-4) can handle some electric wiper motors and early
air-conditioner solenoids; it has a 15-amp rated output capacity.
Fifth Avenue Antique Auto Parts is another source for transistorized voltage
drop units, conversion alternators, brackets, and instructions, and also sells
for $10 The Official 12-Volt Conversion Guide. The guide covers alternators and
generators, mounting brackets, pulleys, overdrives, ignition coils, and 6- to
12-volt bulb crossover numbers.
Yet another solution to your dash instruments is to install a factory-style
instrument cluster voltage regulator. Believe it or not, most '60s-vintage
Fords, even though they had 12-volt electrical systems, still retained 6-volt
electrical gauges-so there's a standard replacement regulator for those cars
that could also be used for your application. A common stock application would
be for a '68 Mustang (AutoZone PN IVR601 or equivalent).
The ammeter doesn't care if it sees 6 or 12 volts. However, if you're using a
high-amp alternator that puts out a lot more juice than the original generator,
consider converting to a voltmeter the old amp gauge won't read high enough to
accurately report the alternator's output, and it's really not a great idea to
run all that high-amp current through the dash anyway.
If you're handy with electronics and need to reduce voltage to a high-current
motor (over 15 amps' draw), it's possible to build your own custom voltage
regulator out of transistors, resistors, and a potentiometer. The
current-carrying capacity would equal the rated output of the power transistor
inside the unit. Newark Electronics is one source for high-end electronic
components. Otherwise, there's always the old wire-wound ceramic resistor
routine. But it's not a cure-all-only a crutch! Typical automotive-type
heavy-duty resistors may have up to a ±40 percent variance from their nominal
rating. This means a resistor could take that 12-volt input and output it to
any-thing from 2.4 to 8.4 volts. The input voltage can also vary widely
depending on the battery's state of charge, changing electrical demand in the
vehicle, and ambient temperature changes. Precision close-tolerance resistors
are available, but if the input voltage varies significantly, they may not be
able to handle the fluctuation in output without failure. And in any event
high-power resistors radiate lots of heat. Because of these drawbacks, resistors
should only be used as an absolute last resort, and only on devices like motors
that are robust enough to handle current fluctuations. They should not be used
for delicate instruments or electronic equipment.
SOURCES

ANTIQUE AUTOMOBILE RADIO INC.; Palm Harbor, FL;
800/933-4926 or 727/785-8733;
www.radiosforoldcars.com
AUTOZONE; Memphis, TN; 800/288-6966;
www.autozone.com
FIFTH AVENUE ANTIQUE AUTO PARTS; Clay Center, KS;
785/632-3450; www.fifthaveinternetgarage.com
M.A.D. ENTERPRISES; 5pringville, CA; 559/539-7128;
www.madelectrical.com
MALLORY IGNITION (MR. GASKET CO.); Cleveland, OH;
216/688-8300; www.malloryperformance.com
MSD IGNITION (AUTOTRONIC CONTROLS CORP.); El Paso, TX;
915/857-7200 [general] or 915/855-7123 [tech];
www.msdignition.com
NEWARK; Chicago, IL (branches nationwide]; 800/4-
NEWARK or 773/784.5100; www.newark.com
PERTRONIX PERFORMANCE PRODUCTS; San Dimas, CA;
909/599.5955; www.pertronix.com
RON FRANCIS WIRING; Chester, PA; 800/292-1940 [sales]
or 866/330-1933 [support); www.ronfrancis.com

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[19Fordy]

Here's more info. just for educational purposes.
http://www.how-to-build-hotrods.com/6v-to-12v.html

[Drbrown]

The majority of turn signal devises, except their flasher units, accommodate 6 and 12 v without change.

Re Voltage regulators, I have a Ron Francis catalog. Looking at prices for electronic voltage regulators, price-wise I'd recommend googling "12 volt to 6 volt electronic voltage reducers" and "12 volt to 6 volt electronic voltage regulators" and you get a host of opportunities. I found a reputable outlet a lower cost. Also look at the many on eBay.

Time is money as they say .... shop around and come back and ask questions if needed.

Good for radios and speakers and turn signals as follows:

http://www.turnswitch.com/services.htm
http://www.autorewire.com/

[rheltzel]

Thanks to all of you for your suggestions and references. Since my goal has been to achieve the highest level of reliability as required for a daily driver, I've decided the time has come to convert my '35 to 12v neg. ground, install a Mallory electronic ignition system, alternator, and electric fan. I've resisted doing this, but I'm tired of chasing down ignition gremlins, especially condensers that work fine for 100 miles and then start breaking down, leaking oily stuff, and causing misfirings and poor running.

Again, my sincere appreciation to all of you who replied to this post. I am very grateful for your insights and recommendations.

[DD931]

Why do you think that condensers will be more reliable if you convert to 12 volts?

[rheltzel]

Switching to a 12V negative ground system will allow me to convert to a modern electronic ignition system. I will no longer have to rely on condensers that are problematic. As I say, I have resisted doing this for years, but I've had it with futzing with 80 year old ignition systems for which you cannot obtain quality parts.

[AnthonyG]

Hi DD91, while I don't have any problems with 6 volt systems there have been many threads / posts on the unreliability of most of todays 6 volt condensers. if you are lucky enough to find a NOS Ford condenser I am confident you'll get many miles from it but most of the 6 volt condensers made today ( I sure due to the limited demand and production mostly in China or some other 3rd world country ) are junk. There are still many vehicles running 12 v condensers and the demand is still high so there is still competition for a better unit so the quality generally is hi and the condensers reliable. I have never had a 12v condenser go bad and have had many cars with 12v systems. Generally the only reason I change them is at tune-up time automatically as a procedure.

[AnthonyG]

rheltzel, I have a '35 Tudor and converted at the same time I put all new wiring in. You'll be happy you did, if you go with an 12v alternator they are available with an internal voltage regulator. Just follow some of the good advise given and available for how to convert. Remember good clean electrical greased grounds and more than one is better.
There are a few good threads on setting up your Mallory e-distributor. A good one in the last week or so. The Mallory will have the mechanical advance set pretty high and will probably have to be adjusted, they have a kit available to reset a bit lower.

[Jack E/NJ]

AnthonyG>>> I have never had a 12v condenser go bad and have had many cars with 12v systems.>>>

Ah, that must explain why I had such good luck with using old 12v Chrysler point condensers rated at 0.25-0.35 mfd when my helmet & coil were still set up for 6v. 8^) I'm still using the same old type of 12v condenser now that everything is 12v. 12v condensers work just fine on 6v systems.

Jack E/NJ

[Noswal]

I'm converting my'46 to 12 volts and want to use the original wiring. I'm sort of stumped at the starter solenoid. The 12v has an "I" and a "S" lug on the solenoid. The 6v only has one lug. Am I right to connect the original wire to the "S" lug?

[Andy]

I ran into maybe the same problem. I switched starter button. I should have found the other style solinoid. I think the solinoid you have needs power FROM the button where the old style grounded the solinoid and it had a internal connection to the battery.

[Noswal]

Got it. I should have known that but "old timers" must have set in. Thanks for setting me straight.

[JSeery]

The "I" is for ignition and is the connection to the coil that applies full power from the battery during cranking. The "S" is to the starter switch. As Andy stated the original solenoid use a ground connection where as the newer style needs a power input. There are several ways to approach this. One is replace the ground starter button with a power button. I the 52 through 55 F1s used one . Another option is to use a relay to provide power to the starter solenoid (S) and use the existing starter button as the ground on the relay.

The 56 F100 wiring diagram show how they were wired (in 56 the starter was wired to the ignition switch and not a starter button).

[JSeery]

If you are interested this is the starter button that connects power to the starter relay as opposed to the early buttons that provided a ground. On the F1 Ford switched to the power style starter button in 52 and used it through 55.

[scooder]

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Agree with Koats, not voltage sensitive.
New old stock condensers arnt normally a good ting either, the do tend to have a shelf life, I think it's down to the guts (wax paper) braking down.
Martin.

[koates]

Hi there, No such part as a 6 volt or 12 volt condenser. All automotive condensers are rated at 400 to 600 volts approx. What varies is the capacity which is around 0.22 mfd. (microfarads) to 0.36 mfd depending on the type of ignition system and the coil used. Early Ford V8 6 volt systems use a 0.36 mfd. condenser approx. Actually you can use any modern new automotive condenser in your early ford V8 be it 6 or 12 volt system. Depending on the capacity of that new condenser, will determine how long the distributer contacts will last. NOS condensers are a bit of a gamble as to wether or not they are any good. I once tested about 20 NOS model B ford condensers in their boxes. All were faulty. Regards, Kevin.

[rotorwrench]

You may not need any of their stuff but the 5th avenue internet garage has made a business out of voltage conversions.
http://www.fifthaveinternetgarage.com/