The Ford Barn

Andrew_B · 11-15-2011, 04:51 PM

I’m building a few flatheads and was thinking about installing Studebaker Champ Mushroom lifters. I have the back cutter to spot face the bottom of the lifter bore, and can machine the bronze lifter bushings. Just wonder if anyone here has built a flathead with them and has any advice or pointers in going this route.

Thanks,

Andrew

Charlie ny · 11-15-2011, 05:08 PM

AB,
Flat Jack where are you ?
Charlie ny

Ol' Ron · 11-15-2011, 05:24 PM

Isky made some track cams 1023/1024 that used these lifters. To take advantage of them the cam should be ground for them.

Andrew_B · 11-15-2011, 05:31 PM

I agree Ron. No reason to go to the effort to install them if the cam doesn't take advantage of them. I have cam blanks that will be machined for each engine.

Andrew

Pete · 11-15-2011, 06:13 PM

Back in the 50's I asked Isky why he made mushroom lifter cams for flathead Fords.
His answer, "Why did I ever do that. Big mistake."

JWL · 11-15-2011, 06:19 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

If the objective is maximum performance a roller cam is much better. Only during the initial .050 of valve lift does a mushroom lifter cam have a slight advantage.

flatjack9 · 11-15-2011, 06:16 PM

I've got some also, but never found any cam to run. Haven't really looked hard. Pete discouraged me.

flatjack9 · 11-15-2011, 06:23 PM

Thanks for the response. Jack

Andrew_B · 11-15-2011, 06:39 PM

I've looked at the Crane roller lifters/cams but I think they require too much valve spring seat pressure for a flathead to handle and I'm sure they are not light weight. A mushroom lifter is 15 grams lighter than a hollow adjustable lifter. I'm sure the return on investment is low, but I've got the time.

Andrew

rotorwrench · 11-15-2011, 07:47 PM

Barney Navarro used them for a while and found that they have tendency to egg shape the follower bore more rapidly than the stock ones. They solve one problem but create another one.

JWL · 11-16-2011, 06:44 AM

What constitutes "more valve spring seat pressure than a Flathead can handle"? Which part of a Flathead can not "handle" high seat pressure?

Walt Dupont--Me. · 11-16-2011, 08:59 AM

I built a 59AB with a Craine roller cam a few yr's ago. The owner had the cam and a set of Crain dual springs. I installed one of the valve and spring set ups. It took a 10 foot bar and tender fingers to get the keepers in. I don't know what the seat pressure was but it was weaked. I finally got hold to a guy that run one of those cams in a street and drag car. He said he knew what I ment about high pressure. The first one he built only run a short time and split the block. He talked to Dave Crain, and Dave told him if anyone used one of those cams they were on ther own, there had been no testing on those cams. SO, he set the next one up with single Esky springs with 100# seat pressure and been draging it for 2 yr's with no trouble. SO, I built the one I was building that way, 3-5/16 + 4-1/8, 3 97's, ect, 37 LaSall trans, quick change. In a 35 street coupe, The guy has been running it on the street for 5 yr's and loves it. Walt

Pete · 11-16-2011, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWL

What constitutes "more valve spring seat pressure than a Flathead can handle"? Which part of a Flathead can not "handle" high seat pressure?

I would like to know that also....
I ran one with a .488 lift radius lifter cam at 200 lb. on the seat.
Worked fine.
It gets rather tiresome hearing all these BS old wives tales all the time.

Tom Walker · 04-06-2014, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWL

What constitutes "more valve spring seat pressure than a Flathead can handle"? Which part of a Flathead can not "handle" high seat pressure?

The cam bearings?

JWL · 04-06-2014, 07:02 AM

The Bonneville car on which I served as Crew Chief changed from Crower Roller cam to a maximum effort, mushroom tappet cam. The cam bearing housings were bored to use 460 Ford bearings to satisfy the need for more cam diameter. The cam was computer designed and ground in a CNC grinder. The net result was less speed than with the roller cam. The flat face cannot achieve the acceleration of lift that the roller follower allows.

Yes, there are many variables and it is possible the car might have gone slower on those same days with the roller cam. But, I doubt it.

Pete · 04-06-2014, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Walker

The cam bearings?

The bearings are the LAST thing you have to worry about.

rotorwrench · 11-16-2011, 05:13 PM

If the cam is built for high lift, it should be rigid enough not to bend.

Bruce Lancaster · 11-16-2011, 06:36 PM

The Late, Great Flatdog, who put a fully streetable 3,000 pound '34 well into the 12's with a blown flathead, used that cam. He groused a lot about the sheer difficulty of compressing the springs and getting all the parts together in there... at some point the engine was torn down, and as an experiment (the skin had grown back on his hands and he wanted to keep it there, I think) he reassembled the thing using only the outer spring. No problems, no sign of float, no loss of performance measured on the strip or on his G-meter used for road testing.

Blownflatheaddeuce · 11-16-2011, 08:59 PM

I miss Flatdog and his input....

Rat

Cartravel · 11-17-2011, 12:06 PM

I have done quite a bit of research on the history of flathead cams (see http://www.tildentechnologies.com/Cams). I believe I can shed some light on the history of mushroomed and radiused lifters and why.

Despite a rather small duration, Ford was able to get good lift out of their cams by using what is called a “dwell at maximum velocity”. The radial point where the cam contacts the lifter is directly related to the velocity or rate of lift (think of it like a lever arm). I do not believe the aftermarket had the capability to use this design technique. The only way they could get more lift was to (1) increase the duration, (2) use a larger mushroom lifter, or (3) use a radiused lifter.

I have degreed several flathead cams now and have yet to find an aftermarket flathead cam with a dwell at maximum velocity. If this technique were used, I believe you could get just as good a lift curve without resorting to mushroom or radiused lifters.

11-15-2011, 04:51 PM	#1
Andrew_B Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Vancouver, WA Posts: 29	Mushroom lifters – Any advice I’m building a few flatheads and was thinking about installing Studebaker Champ Mushroom lifters. I have the back cutter to spot face the bottom of the lifter bore, and can machine the bronze lifter bushings. Just wonder if anyone here has built a flathead with them and has any advice or pointers in going this route. Thanks, Andrew

11-15-2011, 05:08 PM	#2
Charlie ny BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 3,019	Re: Mushroom lifters – Any advice AB, Flat Jack where are you ? Charlie ny

11-15-2011, 05:24 PM	#3
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,861	Re: Mushroom lifters – Any advice Isky made some track cams 1023/1024 that used these lifters. To take advantage of them the cam should be ground for them.

11-15-2011, 05:31 PM	#4
Andrew_B Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Vancouver, WA Posts: 29	Re: Mushroom lifters – Any advice I agree Ron. No reason to go to the effort to install them if the cam doesn't take advantage of them. I have cam blanks that will be machined for each engine. Andrew

11-15-2011, 06:13 PM	#5
Pete Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wa. Posts: 5,409	Re: Mushroom lifters – Any advice Back in the 50's I asked Isky why he made mushroom lifter cams for flathead Fords. His answer, "Why did I ever do that. Big mistake."

11-15-2011, 06:19 PM	#6
JWL Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Fitzgerald, Georgia Posts: 2,204	Re: Mushroom lifters – Any advice Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) If the objective is maximum performance a roller cam is much better. Only during the initial .050 of valve lift does a mushroom lifter cam have a slight advantage.

11-15-2011, 06:16 PM	#7
flatjack9 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oshkosh, Wi Posts: 4,527	Re: Mushroom lifters – Any advice I've got some also, but never found any cam to run. Haven't really looked hard. Pete discouraged me.

11-15-2011, 06:23 PM	#8
flatjack9 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oshkosh, Wi Posts: 4,527	Re: Mushroom lifters – Any advice Thanks for the response. Jack

11-15-2011, 06:39 PM	#9
Andrew_B Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Vancouver, WA Posts: 29	Re: Mushroom lifters – Any advice I've looked at the Crane roller lifters/cams but I think they require too much valve spring seat pressure for a flathead to handle and I'm sure they are not light weight. A mushroom lifter is 15 grams lighter than a hollow adjustable lifter. I'm sure the return on investment is low, but I've got the time. Andrew

11-15-2011, 07:47 PM	#10
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,440	Re: Mushroom lifters – Any advice Barney Navarro used them for a while and found that they have tendency to egg shape the follower bore more rapidly than the stock ones. They solve one problem but create another one.

11-16-2011, 06:44 AM	#11
JWL Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Fitzgerald, Georgia Posts: 2,204	Re: Mushroom lifters – Any advice What constitutes "more valve spring seat pressure than a Flathead can handle"? Which part of a Flathead can not "handle" high seat pressure?

11-16-2011, 08:59 AM	#12
Walt Dupont--Me. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Gardiner Me. Posts: 4,200	Re: Mushroom lifters – Any advice I built a 59AB with a Craine roller cam a few yr's ago. The owner had the cam and a set of Crain dual springs. I installed one of the valve and spring set ups. It took a 10 foot bar and tender fingers to get the keepers in. I don't know what the seat pressure was but it was weaked. I finally got hold to a guy that run one of those cams in a street and drag car. He said he knew what I ment about high pressure. The first one he built only run a short time and split the block. He talked to Dave Crain, and Dave told him if anyone used one of those cams they were on ther own, there had been no testing on those cams. SO, he set the next one up with single Esky springs with 100# seat pressure and been draging it for 2 yr's with no trouble. SO, I built the one I was building that way, 3-5/16 + 4-1/8, 3 97's, ect, 37 LaSall trans, quick change. In a 35 street coupe, The guy has been running it on the street for 5 yr's and loves it. Walt

04-06-2014, 07:02 AM	#15
JWL Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Fitzgerald, Georgia Posts: 2,204	Re: Mushroom lifters – Any advice The Bonneville car on which I served as Crew Chief changed from Crower Roller cam to a maximum effort, mushroom tappet cam. The cam bearing housings were bored to use 460 Ford bearings to satisfy the need for more cam diameter. The cam was computer designed and ground in a CNC grinder. The net result was less speed than with the roller cam. The flat face cannot achieve the acceleration of lift that the roller follower allows. Yes, there are many variables and it is possible the car might have gone slower on those same days with the roller cam. But, I doubt it.

11-16-2011, 05:13 PM	#17
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,440	Re: Mushroom lifters – Any advice If the cam is built for high lift, it should be rigid enough not to bend.

11-16-2011, 06:36 PM	#18
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: Mushroom lifters – Any advice The Late, Great Flatdog, who put a fully streetable 3,000 pound '34 well into the 12's with a blown flathead, used that cam. He groused a lot about the sheer difficulty of compressing the springs and getting all the parts together in there... at some point the engine was torn down, and as an experiment (the skin had grown back on his hands and he wanted to keep it there, I think) he reassembled the thing using only the outer spring. No problems, no sign of float, no loss of performance measured on the strip or on his G-meter used for road testing.

11-16-2011, 08:59 PM	#19
Blownflatheaddeuce Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Deep DEEP South Posts: 223	Re: Mushroom lifters – Any advice I miss Flatdog and his input.... Rat

11-17-2011, 12:06 PM	#20
Cartravel Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Larry Young, Tulsa, OK Posts: 202	Re: Mushroom lifters – Any advice I have done quite a bit of research on the history of flathead cams (see http://www.tildentechnologies.com/Cams). I believe I can shed some light on the history of mushroomed and radiused lifters and why. Despite a rather small duration, Ford was able to get good lift out of their cams by using what is called a “dwell at maximum velocity”. The radial point where the cam contacts the lifter is directly related to the velocity or rate of lift (think of it like a lever arm). I do not believe the aftermarket had the capability to use this design technique. The only way they could get more lift was to (1) increase the duration, (2) use a larger mushroom lifter, or (3) use a radiused lifter. I have degreed several flathead cams now and have yet to find an aftermarket flathead cam with a dwell at maximum velocity. If this technique were used, I believe you could get just as good a lift curve without resorting to mushroom or radiused lifters.