TOP DEAD CENTER Ford 1946

[Harylufa]

Dear Friends!
I have just read in various article about how to set TDC. I took my cylinder heads out and re install. It work great, but today I read about to set TDC with the head on removing the spark plug #1. As mine has no mark.
What is the best and precise method? as I ca not see the piston when it is high top. I read a lot over there but I need simple words to understand it. I found this picture and my car needs Flywheel degrees piston position 4º degree btdc.

Please try to help me, It is important to set the correct TDC my dist is all ok now.

Harylufa

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Harylufa

Dear Friends!
I have just read in various article about how to set TDC. I took my cylinder heads out and re install. It work great, but today I read about to set TDC with the head on removing the spark plug #1. As mine has no mark.
What is the best and precise method? as I ca not see the piston when it is high top. I read a lot over there but I need simple words to understand it. I found this picture and my car needs Flywheel degrees piston position 4º degree btdc.

Please try to help me, It is important to set the correct TDC my dist is all ok now.

Harylufa

I'm not sure what you are trying to set by TDC (top dead center). Since you only removed your heads and put them back on you didn't change anything affected by TDC and have nothing to adjust.

If you are trying to set the timing on your distributor that is another thing. To be accurate to have the second points open at 4 degrees before TDC that fires the coil you have to take the distributor out and follow the instructions below. Personally, I don't think timing is that critical and just set my adjusting screw that's on the side of the distributor in the middle of the slot. Anytime that I have set the timing with the distributor off that's where the screw ends up so I just use that spot.

If you're trying to set something other than distributor timing let us know because that is all I can think for you to set under your circumstances.

[Straightpipes]

I think he wants to put a timing mark on the pulley.......

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Straightpipes

I think he wants to put a timing mark on the pulley.......

If that is the case. He would have been much better off making that mark before putting the heads back on. Then he really could see what TDC was. Now, I don't know how he'd do it without removing the one head again.

I think most optimize the distributor timing with a vacuum gauge as described here: http://www.btc-bci.com/~billben/timing.htm That's what I would recommend.

ADDENDUM: I had never actually tried timing my distributor with my vacuum gauge before even though I'd heard of it. I just always left it at 4 BTDC thinking that was probably optimal. But, I just went out and tried it. At 4 BTDC I got 14" of vacuum. I slide the timing plate/screw as advanced as I could (probably made it 8 BTDC) and, low and behold, I got another inch of vacuum and little faster idle! I then went out and tested my vacuum advance screwed clear out as recommended climbing a hill and no ping/knock! I feel better now having optimized my timing and vacuum advance even beyond manufacturer's recommendations. I like it!

[George/Maine]

I saw this in and old book you may want to try it.
When # 2 and 3 are equal in same height distance from top of cylinder head.Use something soft in same lenght.One piston is going down and other is coming up.

[Harylufa]

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Hi!
Thank for information, Straightpipes is right, I want to mark pulley, my dist is already set.
I had the head out and re installed two day before, but as Henry says, is better with the head out.
If I take the head out now can I re install the gasket or I must put another new one?

Thank you!

[Old Henry]

Just in case you missed it. Here it is again.

Originally Posted by Old Henry

I think most optimize the distributor timing with a vacuum gauge as described here: http://www.btc-bci.com/~billben/timing.htm That's what I would recommend.

ADDENDUM: I had never actually tried timing my distributor with my vacuum gauge before even though I'd heard of it. I just always left it at 4 BTDC thinking that was probably optimal. But, I just went out and tried it. At 4 BTDC I got 14" of vacuum. I slide the timing plate/screw as advanced as I could (probably made it 8 BTDC) and, low and behold, I got another inch of vacuum and little faster idle! I then went out and tested my vacuum advance screwed clear out as recommended climbing a hill and no ping/knock! I feel better now having optimized my timing and vacuum advance even beyond manufacturer's recommendations. I like it!

I'm not sure anyone would recommend that you remove the head to mark TDC when you can really get a better timing with the vacuum gauge as described above.

If you are determined to remove the head re-install it with a new gasket.

[Harylufa]

Henry!
Ok, I will try to get the vacuum gauge then?

Harylufa

[Chris Nelson]

By using a large plastic ZIP-TIE, you can find top dead center. Just insert thelarge end of the plastic tie into the cyl and when it stops rising, you have found TDC.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Harylufa

Henry!
Ok, I will try to get the vacuum gauge then?

Yes. Now that I've tried it I think you'll get more optimal timing with the vacuum gauge than a TDC mark. I did.

[V8 Bob]

Originally Posted by Harylufa

Dear Friends!
I have just read in various article about how to set TDC. I took my cylinder heads out and re install. It work great, but today I read about to set TDC with the head on removing the spark plug #1. As mine has no mark.
What is the best and precise method? as I ca not see the piston when it is high top. I read a lot over there but I need simple words to understand it. I found this picture and my car needs Flywheel degrees piston position 4º degree btdc.

Please try to help me, It is important to set the correct TDC my dist is all ok now.

Harylufa

To answer your question, the most accurate method of finding TDC is the piston stop method, and can only be done with the RH head off. A 1/4" or thicker steel strap is bolted over the number 1 piston with a bolt installed in the middle that can be adjusted. Install a degree wheel to the crank shaft, and fab a permanent pointer to the front cover, water pump, etc. Turn the crank clockwise, adjust the bolt for about 20-30 degrees, then turn CCW, measure, and remeasure CW, divide by two, and that's TDC. Perform this more than once until the CCW & CW numbers are exactly the same befroe you divide for TDC.
I know many use a vacuum gauge to set initial timing, including me, but you should know what the timing really is, including total timing, which can't be done with a vacuum gauge, only with a timing light.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Chris Nelson

By using a large plastic ZIP-TIE, you can find top dead center. Just insert thelarge end of the plastic tie into the cyl and when it stops rising, you have found TDC.

Just be extra careful not to drop the zip tie into the piston. Then you would be removing and re-installing the head again.

[V8 Bob]

Originally Posted by Juergen

The most accurate way to get top center is to hollow out an old spark plug and replace the center with an extended bolt which will hit the cylinder top a little before top dead center. Rotate the crank by hand in one direction till it hits the "plug". Mark this spot. Now rotate the crank by hand in the other direction until it hits the plug. Mark this spot. Top dead center is in the middle of these two marks.

You can't do that on a Ford flathead, 'cause the exhaust valve is under the plug.

[lee34]

The best way to find tdc you need a degree wheel and a dial indicator.set the dial indicator so you can stop the piston in the exact same spot coming up. It is better if you use a place that is at least a 1/4 inch btdc.Secure a degree wheel to crankshaft,rotate crank until top of piston moves your indicator to a number (can be any number) record that number.make a pointer to show where degree wheel is stopped.(a coat hanger works) record position of degree wheel that pointer is indicating.Rotate the crankshaft in opposite rotation until piston contacts dial indicator and moves it to the same number as before.See the degree on the degree wheel that the pointer is at.TDC will be half way between the two readings.You can mark pulley etc.accordingly Lee34

[Harylufa]

Hi!
yes , i can see the exhaust valve, no piston. So, i must take the head out? You mean that could be better than vacuum gauge? if I do not want to take the head out.

Harylufa

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by lee34

The best way to find tdc you need a degree wheel and a dial indicator.set the dial indicator so you can stop the piston in the exact same spot coming up. It is better if you use a place that is at least a 1/4 inch btdc.Secure a degree wheel to crankshaft,rotate crank until top of piston moves your indicator to a number (can be any number) record that number.make a pointer to show where degree wheel is stopped.(a coat hanger works) record position of degree wheel that pointer is indicating.Rotate the crankshaft in opposite rotation until piston contacts dial indicator and moves it to the same number as before.See the degree on the degree wheel that the pointer is at.TDC will be half way between the two readings.You can mark pulley etc.accordingly Lee34

Hi!
This is without taking the head out? am I right?
Harylufa

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by V8 Bob

To answer your question, the most accurate method of finding TDC is the piston stop method, and can only be done with the RH head off. A 1/4" or thicker steel strap is bolted over the number 1 piston with a bolt installed in the middle that can be adjusted. Install a degree wheel to the crank shaft, and fab a permanent pointer to the front cover, water pump, etc. Turn the crank clockwise, adjust the bolt for about 20-30 degrees, then turn CCW, measure, and releaser CW, divide by two, and that's TDC. Perform this more than once until the CCW & CW numbers are exactly the same befroe you divide for TDC.
I know many use a vacuum gauge to set initial timing, including me, but you should know what the timing really is, including total timing, which can't be done with a vacuum gauge, only with a timing light.

HI!
I read how to set TDC when my head was reinstalled, I feel no good for this, I lost the chance to do everything right, But I realized after, God!

[Randy]

Originally Posted by Chris Nelson

By using a large plastic ZIP-TIE, you can find top dead center. Just insert thelarge end of the plastic tie into the cyl and when it stops rising, you have found TDC.

That's a partial description of a method to find TDC, but absent more detail will find you one of two things: 1) when the piston to head clearance equals the thickness of the zip tie that you use, or 2) that the piston to head clearance exceeds the thickness of the zip tie.

Going off the top of my head, the instructions are roughly this: Fix a timing pointer to the timing cover that overhangs the crank pulley. With a thumb over the spark plug hole, rotate the engine by hand until the compression forces the thumb off the hole. Rotate the engine by hand in reverse about 1/4 turn. Put a zip tie or a piece of small rope down through the spark plug hole until it rests on top of the piston. Rotate the engine again clockwise, by hand, until the rope stops the piston from rising. Put a chalk mark on the pulley in line with the pointer. Now reverse the rotation, by hand, of the crankshaft until the piston goes all the way down and then all the way back up and until the rope once again stops the piston. Again mark with chalk the pulley in line with the pointer. The point exactly in the middle of the two marks you have made will be TDC. It's important that the rope on top of the piston remains in the same shape, mass and position when making the second mark as it was in when the first mark was made.

[TomO]

Here is a link to an easy way to find TDC.

http://www.wikihow.com/Find-Your-Eng...ad-Center-(TDC)

A variation is to put oil in the tube and then mark the high point going forward, then go past TDC and mark the high point coming backward. TDC will be exactly in the middle of the two marks. They will be about 1/8" apart, depending on the size of the tubing used.

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by TomO

Here is a link to an easy way to find TDC.

http://www.wikihow.com/Find-Your-Eng...ad-Center-(TDC)

A variation is to put oil in the tube and then mark the high point going forward, then go past TDC and mark the high point coming backward. TDC will be exactly in the middle of the two marks. They will be about 1/8" apart, depending on the size of the tubing used.

Hi!
I read that putting a tube full of oil, what happen with valve? because in spark plug hole I see valves. Not the piston itself because is below.

Thanks

Harylufa

[Ol' Ron]

Randy has it, that's called the Bruce Lancaster method and is simple and almost as accurate as the dial indicator method. Yes make sure you use one of those heavy duty tie wrap.

[Mart]

I'd say Randy has described it best, but I'd recommend the Zip Tie rather than the rope.
This subject comes up very often on here, search for TDC and you will find the same method described many times, at least once by me (recently).

Mart.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Randy

That's a partial description of a method to find TDC, but absent more detail will find you one of two things: 1) when the piston to head clearance equals the thickness of the zip tie that you use, or 2) that the piston to head clearance exceeds the thickness of the zip tie.

Going off the top of my head, the instructions are roughly this: Fix a timing pointer to the timing cover that overhangs the crank pulley. With a thumb over the spark plug hole, rotate the engine by hand until the compression forces the thumb off the hole. Rotate the engine by hand in reverse about 1/4 turn. Put a zip tie or a piece of small rope down through the spark plug hole until it rests on top of the piston. Rotate the engine again clockwise, by hand, until the rope stops the piston from rising. Put a chalk mark on the pulley in line with the pointer. Now reverse the rotation, by hand, of the crankshaft until the piston goes all the way down and then all the way back up and until the rope once again stops the piston. Again mark with chalk the pulley in line with the pointer. The point exactly in the middle of the two marks you have made will be TDC. It's important that the rope on top of the piston remains in the same shape, mass and position when making the second mark as it was in when the first mark was made.

I haven't done this myself so I am just asking. Would it be possible to tie a nut to a string and let it dangle over the piston to get a more consistent measurement of the upward limit of each piston movement? Just wondering.

[Mart]

A nut? I'd say no - no guarantee of which way round it would be each time.

Here's the recent post on the same subject. My response seems to have killed the thread dead. As usual.

Mart.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57144

[Brian]

Unless I'm missing something, you do not need to identify where TDC is to set the timing. The distributor is set up on the bench and it will only go back in one position so it's impossible to not get it right. Brian

[Mart]

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You're not wrong, Brian.

[George/Maine]

If you had a 4" stroke and half way down would be 2" plus the head about 1 1/2.
Get 2 pencils each 7 inches long.
Now if you know about were #1 is, the rotor should be 11 oclock pointing to #1
Now if you were in the 30 and 40 this is what was done.
Cylinders #2 and #3 the pencils should equal height.Go back and forth to equal. Try see how close you come this way.
Any you will have to move dist anyway so not much since in finding anyway.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Brian

Unless I'm missing something, you do not need to identify where TDC is to set the timing. The distributor is set up on the bench and it will only go back in one position so it's impossible to not get it right. Brian

That was my first response yesterday.

[Harylufa]

Friends!!!

I have just took the head out, please try to help how to set the piston to highest point as accurate as possible. How many turns must the crankshaft do, what happen with other piston, what position should It be.
I want to do what is shown in the picture I found. Tell me the procedure step by step please try to number it if possible.

I decided this because the others way you show will be always a proximity not as accurate as this way taking the head out. Tomorrow I will get a gauge shown in the picture (comparator)

I really look forwards to receiving your help!

Harylufa

[Chris Nelson]

V8 Bob, I have done it and it works. Slip the Zip-Tie through the spark plug hole and over into the cyl. By using the large end of a long tie, longer than the stroke by 4 or 5 inches, you will not lose it into the cylinder and it will rise with the piston. When it stops rising, you are at top Dead Center.

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

If you've got the head off I'll tell you how to do this real simple. First make your pointer where you want it on the front cover. I use the bottom bolt right side of the front cover. removed the bolt, take a longer bolt and cut the head off, now grind the head of the bolt to a point, now screw a nut on the bolt up to the end of the threads, screw the bolt in with your finger and then tighten the nut. Now you have a pointer pointing right to the edge of the pulley. NOW, with the head off, take a thick piece of metal, at least 1/4in. thick and about 3/4in. wide, and about 4in. long. Drill a 7/16 hole on the metal slide it down over a head stud so about 1/2in. is sticking over edge of the piston, hand crank the engine over in one direction untill the piston hits the metal, NOW make a chalk mark on the pulley where the pointer is, NOW crank the engine over in the other direction untill it hits the melal, make another chalk mark. Now the 2 chalk marks should be about 1/2in. apart, in the center of these 2 marks is TDC. Simple. Walt

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

PS, don't worry about the other pistons and don't worry about the what stroke it is. Just make sure you use no. one piston, it's TDC no matter if it exh stroke or compression stroke. Walt

[V8 Bob]

Originally Posted by Chris Nelson

V8 Bob, I have done it and it works. Slip the Zip-Tie through the spark plug hole and over into the cyl. By using the large end of a long tie, longer than the stroke by 4 or 5 inches, you will not lose it into the cylinder and it will rise with the piston. When it stops rising, you are at top Dead Center.

Chris, you've got me confussed with someone else, as I didn't comment on your post.

[al pa.]

The oil isn't supposed to go all the way up the tube,and into the cylinder.Rotate the crank until the bubbles stop coming out of the tube.Turn the crank until the oil comes part way up the tube.mark the oil level on the tube,and mark the pulley at the pointer that you have installed.reverse crank rotation,and the oil will go down the tube,and then start back up the tube,and reaches the mark that was put on the tube,put your second mark on the pulley.T.D.C.will be at the exact center of these two marks.Reverse the crank rotation after putting the first mark on the tube.If not reversed,and the crank continues in the same direction,that pulled oil up the tube,it will continue pulling up oil and putting it into the cylinder.Someone correct me if I'm wrong,or have made this too confusing.This is for harylufa post about oil and tube.

[Randy]

Originally Posted by Chris Nelson

V8 Bob, I have done it and it works. Slip the Zip-Tie through the spark plug hole and over into the cyl. By using the large end of a long tie, longer than the stroke by 4 or 5 inches, you will not lose it into the cylinder and it will rise with the piston. When it stops rising, you are at top Dead Center.

Sorry, Chris, but I have to respectfully disagree.

TDC is an exact point in the rotation of the crankshaft where the piston has stopped moving up and has not yet started moving down.

The procedure you describe only finds the point at which the piston stops moving upward because the object that you've placed in the cylinder exceeds the thickness of the piston to head clearance in that spot. Yes, the zip tie can be placed in the cylinder and kept from falling in, but the zip tie only stops the piston from moving upward due to interference. Your method does not include a way to tell if the piston would still continue upward if the interfering object were not there. If you can't find when the piston stops moving up and when it begins moving down, then you can't find TDC. When you do find those two points, then the spot exactly in the middle of those two points is TDC.

[Old Henry]

I just figured out why my engine runs better with the ignition advanced as far as possible and I get no ping/knock with my vacuum brake adjustment screwed clear out. It's because I'm driving my car at an elevation averaging 4,500 feet! I'm thinking when we take our trip to Death Valley in three weeks (elevation 282 feet below sea level) I may well get some pinging/knocking and have to retard the timing and the vacuum advance. (I had to do that when we drove Route 66 in 2010.) I may even have to put larger jets in the carburetor. It will be interesting to see.

So, there is one reason to time with the vacuum gauge instead of a timing mark - to adjust for elevation. (Hary, you don't need to worry about that because your elevation is only 21 meters. Ford recommendation of 4 BTDC will probably be fine for you but it wouldn't hurt to try more advance with a vacuum gauge after you time it with the timing mark just to see.)

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by al pa.

The oil isn't supposed to go all the way up the tube,and into the cylinder.Rotate the crank until the bubbles stop coming out of the tube.Turn the crank until the oil comes part way up the tube.mark the oil level on the tube,and mark the pulley at the pointer that you have installed.reverse crank rotation,and the oil will go down the tube,and then start back up the tube,and reaches the mark that was put on the tube,put your second mark on the pulley.T.D.C.will be at the exact center of these two marks.Reverse the crank rotation after putting the first mark on the tube.If not reversed,and the crank continues in the same direction,that pulled oil up the tube,it will continue pulling up oil and putting it into the cylinder.Someone correct me if I'm wrong,or have made this too confusing.This is for harylufa post about oil and tube.

http://www.btc-bci.com/~billben/tdc.htm

R

[al pa.]

Thx.Ronnie,good info,that I wasn't 100% sure of before.

[Harylufa]

My Friends!
I finally found the real TDC, I attach pictures.
What do you think? There is anything else to do?

PLease before I reinstall the head.

Thank you very much!!!

Harylufa

[George/Maine]

Harylufa Just for the heck of it.
measure from deck down to piston on 2 and 3 and see if they are the same.This was in and old book for finding TDC.
I will try it some time.

[Bruce Lancaster]

OK...TDC cannot be found directly closer than 2-3 degrees due the the DWELL at TDC of long rod, offset engines. Dial indicator, moving oil, whistles, eyeball all get you only in ballpark, probably as good as an average factory mark but better ways are easier.
Commonest easy ways head on or off are versions of INTERFERENCE method.
Off, strap and bolt stops piston a ways down the hole on both sides of TDC. Mark both places and measure spot on pulley halfway in between, very accurate.

Someone pointed out to me the offset principle used in Fords (DeSaxe system, described waaaaay beyond my math education in a Ford engineering book I have, means rate of crank motion vs. rate of piston motion actually differs between UP and DOWN...a mind-blowing concept, but you can ignore it as difference is in the gnat's eyelash range.

A consequence is that head OFF method allows measuring farther down the hole and that is slightly more accurate, but I thing the inaccuracies are probably smaller than you could approach making your marks.

Head ON a fat zip tie allows you to stop the piston the thickness of the buckle down the hole. The strap allows your apprentice a decent chance to hold the thing through the plug hole and keep it in the same place for both bumps. Fattest object you can get in there and hold against the far wall so you can repeat is the best. Obviously range of thickness possible is tiny.

Turnit til it stops, mark, turnitaround the other way til it stops. TDC, theoretically slightly imperfect but way better than any other reasonable way, is half way between.
This way only takes a few seconds once you gather the gear...repeat it several times and be sure you find the same center each time. If you don't, find a steadier apprentice.

The first time I built a FH, I had a superduper ex-Wehrmacht dial indicator found in a German junk shop and a degree wheel. I carefully located TDC by the indicator and thought myself home free.

I stepped back and spun the thing a couple times watching carefully, and discovered to by absolute uncomprehending horror that the indicator with its zillionth of a millimeter reading had not even a trace of movement for well over 2 degrees! I had absolutely NO clue, and had to go with good enough around the middle of that. I had to slink away with my tail between my legs and worry about it for a long time.

Twenty years later...I found Smokey Yunick explaining what had happened to me in his wonderful book. There it is. Long rods in relation to stroke and crank/piston offset both contribute to this totally unexpected effect.

[Bruce Lancaster]

Remember when adjusting timing by vac gauge...you are moving not only the idle setting but the ENTIRE CURVE, add in 4 degrees and your timing will be 4 degrees more advanced at all points in the curve. This may or may not matter...we are dealing with really low compression and running on gas that is probably twice as knock resistant as what was around in 1946...
Remember also that you have a vacuum brake as an adjuster for the RATE of advance.
On that...loosen the lock nut, then run the adjuster bolt all the way out until you hit a stop...do NOT twist hard or you will unseat the spring. (Actually, FIRST take the thing apart at the BIG nut and be sure piston is not stuck, then clean and lube it.)
Once all the way out, road test under various acceleration loads...if it pings more than a trace it should be screwed in minimum to end the pinging. This is primarily an adjustment for really horrible depression era/wartime gas that you wouldn't use in a lawnmower now, and adjustment all the way out is usually fine.

[Old Henry]

Today I discovered yet another benefit of adjusting my timing to maximize my vacuum.

We got the first rain/snow we've had here in Utah for almost two months. Unheard of. As I was driving "Old Henry" through the falling snow with the vacuum operated windshield wipers on I realized they were working better, had more power, and were moving faster. I wondered why. Then I remembered having advanced my timing all the way to maximize my vacuum. There you have it. One more benefit - better working vacuum operated wipers!

[Harylufa]

Dear Bruce and Henry!

My God a lot of Information! With my head off I really set TDC?

I did this!!! By walt Dupont--me

If you've got the head off I'll tell you how to do this real simple. First make your pointer where you want it on the front cover. I use the bottom bolt right side of the front cover. removed the bolt, take a longer bolt and cut the head off, now grind the head of the bolt to a point, now screw a nut on the bolt up to the end of the threads, screw the bolt in with your finger and then tighten the nut. Now you have a pointer pointing right to the edge of the pulley. NOW, with the head off, take a thick piece of metal, at least 1/4in. thick and about 3/4in. wide, and about 4in. long. Drill a 7/16 hole on the metal slide it down over a head stud so about 1/2in. is sticking over edge of the piston, hand crank the engine over in one direction untill the piston hits the metal, NOW make a chalk mark on the pulley where the pointer is, NOW crank the engine over in the other direction untill it hits the melal, make another chalk mark. Now the 2 chalk marks should be about 1/2in. apart, in the center of these 2 marks is TDC. Simple. Walt

I think It alright now, Am I right? ONE QUESTION? my car say It has to have 4ºBTCD am I right, now how I apply this?

Mark is done in pulley, and now 4ºBTDC is 4,73 millimeter (Pulley diameter is 13,57 millimeter)

Must I do another mark that would be 4º BTDC???

SEN 4º=X/6,785 (RADIUS)

X=SEN 4º x 6,785 = 4,73 millimeter


Can I use a timing light NOW? Please, tell me how!!!

I really thank all for great information!!!

harylufa!

[Bruce Lancaster]

More degrees needed! Figuring out and measuring the width of 4 degrees will drive you mad.
Get: A piece of cardboard, a compass, and a protractor.
Measure the diameter of your pulley at the point you will be marking it.
With compass (find a 12 year old who is taking Euclidean geometry, trade him a cookie for his compass) draw a circle on the cardboard the diameter of yor pulley and from the same center another circle outside that.
Use protractor, draw a line out and more lines at intervals. I would mark 5 degree segments out to about 40, then mark that forst segment into single degrees. Or...you can estimate pretty well within 5 degree blocks.
Cut out the inner circle you drew, slide the remaining circle over the pulley. You can even cut it to get past belts.
Hold first line at your TDC mark, punch other marks as needed. Give the 12 year old his tools back. Done.

[Bruce Lancaster]

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Now...go back to that vacuum brake...you want to be sure you are not running retarded because brake is tight or stuck, and then compensating by jacking up the static timing...that is a mechanical process called chasing your own tail!
Get everything working, THEN experiment to find what timing your distributor likes...messing with the timing is a nice cheap, easy way to find your car's zone of happiness. Good timing curve makes a solid difference you can feel.
Stock '46 curve is usually not bad at all, and is meant when brake is off to start advancing right above idle, them advance quickly up until about 2,000...easy to look at once you have enough degrees!

[Mike in AZ]

great thread...and you can probably find a protractor that is close to diameter of the pulley making it easy to figure out the degrees..i think...lol....thanks for the great answers to his questions.....Mike

[Ol' Ron]

Atta boy Bruce!! With our system we're running 30 degs total in cruise. This drops off to 22 mechanical at WOT. 8:CR reg gas and no ping yet? so we;re looking for more. On the 11A you can grind the adv slots to give more advance at Hi vac. But the piston has to drag the adv weights or you get erratic operation. We keep putzin.

[peewee2you]

I would remove the dizzy cap, rotate rotor to number one vicinity on dizzy, remove spark plug on #1 piston and insert screw driver in hole where spark plug was removed with some one else using a extension and socket on crank pulley bolt rotate in rotor rotation direction while feeling the screw driver on top of piston #1 you should be able to feel the up and down point pretty close letting you know your at the top.

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Atta boy Bruce!! With our system we're running 30 degs total in cruise. This drops off to 22 mechanical at WOT. 8:CR reg gas and no ping yet? so we;re looking for more. On the 11A you can grind the adv slots to give more advance at Hi vac. But the piston has to drag the adv weights or you get erratic operation. We keep putzin.

Dear Ol ron!

Can you explain what you wrote here in basic no abraviation, please, I think is important what you say! And I want to understand all of you, I learned English but is difficult for me Technical Words.

Thank you veru much.

Haylufa.

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster

More degrees needed! Figuring out and measuring the width of 4 degrees will drive you mad.
Get: A piece of cardboard, a compass, and a protractor.
Measure the diameter of your pulley at the point you will be marking it.
With compass (find a 12 year old who is taking Euclidean geometry, trade him a cookie for his compass) draw a circle on the cardboard the diameter of yor pulley and from the same center another circle outside that.
Use protractor, draw a line out and more lines at intervals. I would mark 5 degree segments out to about 40, then mark that forst segment into single degrees. Or...you can estimate pretty well within 5 degree blocks.
Cut out the inner circle you drew, slide the remaining circle over the pulley. You can even cut it to get past belts.
Hold first line at your TDC mark, punch other marks as needed. Give the 12 year old his tools back. Done.

Dear Bruce!

I will have to buy a compass, my boy is 4 years old, ja! and he will use it in the future.
you wrote (forst) I can no translate it. It is a great Idea compass!
I am trying to translate carefully many times what you say!

Thank you,

Harylufa

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Harylufa

Mark is done in pulley, and now 4ºBTDC is 4,73 millimeter (Pulley diameter is 13,57 millimeter)

Must I do another mark that would be 4º BTDC???

SEN 4º=X/6,785 (RADIUS)

X=SEN 4º x 6,785 = 4,73 millimeter


Can I use a timing light NOW? Please, tell me how!!!

I really thank all for great information!!!

harylufa!

Hary,

You already figured it out geometrically without any of the other suggestions given. At the diameter of of your pulley 4 degrees from TDC is, as you say, 4.73 millimeters to the side of it. If you have that marked you are ready to time the distributor with a timing light. Here's how you do it.

Hook the power wires for your timing light up to the battery being sure to get the right clamps on the right poles of the battery (red to positive, black to negative). Now clamp the pickup around the spark plug wire to the #1 piston that you used to find TDC. Loosen the timing screw/plate on the side of your distributor so that you can slide it to change the timing while the engine is running. Now start the engine and let it idle. Point your timing light at the new timing marks you have just made and see where the mark on your crankshaft pulley meets the marks on the engine. If the mark on your pulley is not right on the 4 BTDC mark slide the adjusting screw/plate on the distributor get it to match. Moving the adjusting screw/plate down (clockwise when looking at the front of the distributor) will advance the timing. Moving it up (counterclockwise) will retard it. When you get it just right tighten the adjusting screw and you're done.

That's all there is to it.

Good luck.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Harylufa

Dear Bruce!

I will have to buy a compass, my boy is 4 years old, ja! and he will use it in the future.
you wrote (forst) I can no translate it. It is a great Idea compass!
I am trying to translate carefully many times what you say!

Thank you,

Harylufa

Hopefully, Bruce will not be offended at my attempt to translate what he said.

I'm not sure that the compass that you are thinking of is what Bruce was talking about. The word in English has two very different meanings. One compass is a small round container that has a magnetic needle in it that points north to navigate by. The other is the on like the letter V that has a sharp point on one end and a pencil on the other end. It is used to draw circles. That is the one Bruce was talking about to use to draw a circle the diameter of your crankshaft pulley.

Bruce's word "frost" was actually a mis-spelling of the word "first." Use the word "first" in the sentence in place of his word "frost" and you'll understand it better.

As I said before, Bruce's method is just another method of finding the various degree marks around your pulley which you already did by geometric calculation, that is, you took the diamater of the pulley (135 millimeters), multiplied it by pi (the ratio of diameter to circumference - 3.14) divided that circumference by the number of degrees in a circle (360) and multiplied it by 4 to get the distance of 4 degrees from TDC - 4.73 millimeters. Your method was much faster and easier. And, if you want other degree marks they are, as you have probably already figured out, 1.1825 millimeters from each other.

I'm afraid I can't help much with what Ol' Ron was talking about as I don't understand all of it either. I'm pretty sure that when he says: "With our system we're running 30 degs total in cruise" he's talking about total advance in timing adding the initial timing and the advance created by the centrifugal mechanism in the distributor controlled by vacuum at steady highway speed. When he says: "This drops off to 22 mechanical at WOT" I think he's talking about the portion of the total advance that is caused by the centrifugal advance mechanism in the distributor not including that set initially at idle. WOT stands for Wide Open Throttle. Beyond that, I don't know what he is talking about either. Hopefully he will enlighten us. It may have been jargon that only he and Bruce understand since he was addressing that message to Bruce.

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Hopefully, Bruce will not be offended at my attempt to translate what he said.

I'm not sure that the compass that you are thinking of is what Bruce was talking about. The word in English has two very different meanings. One compass is a small round container that has a magnetic needle in it that points north to navigate by. The other is the on like the letter V that has a sharp point on one end and a pencil on the other end. It is used to draw circles. That is the one Bruce was talking about to use to draw a circle the diameter of your crankshaft pulley.

Bruce's word "frost" was actually a mis-spelling of the word "first." Use the word "first" in the sentence in place of his word "frost" and you'll understand it better.

As I said before, Bruce's method is just another method of finding the various degree marks around your pulley which you already did by geometric calculation, that is, you took the diamater of the pulley (135 millimeters), multiplied it by pi (the ratio of diameter to circumference - 3.14) divided that circumference by the number of degrees in a circle (360) and multiplied it by 4 to get the distance of 4 degrees from TDC - 4.73 millimeters. Your method was much faster and easier. And, if you want other degree marks they are, as you have probably already figured out, 1.1825 millimeters from each other.

I'm afraid I can't help much with what Ol' Ron was talking about as I don't understand all of it either. I'm pretty sure that when he says: "With our system we're running 30 degs total in cruise" he's talking about total advance in timing adding the initial timing and the advance created by the centrifugal mechanism in the distributor controlled by vacuum at steady highway speed. When he says: "This drops off to 22 mechanical at WOT" I think he's talking about the portion of the total advance that is caused by the centrifugal advance mechanism in the distributor not including that set initially at idle. WOT stands for Wide Open Throttle. Beyond that, I don't know what he is talking about either. Hopefully he will enlighten us. It may have been jargon that only he and Bruce understand since he was addressing that message to Bruce.

Old Henry!

Very, very clear what you wrote, God bless your patience trying to explain all this.
Bruce will not be offended because his method is useful and precise too.

Now I will get a timing light and I will see the result.

I know you will understand, all my sacrifice and hard work concerning my car, There is a reason,I love my car!

I think that I have learned a lot here in Fordbarn, I really thank you so much!
i will back for more news!

[Bruce Lancaster]

Ron is talking about the need on all engines for a true vac advance or other method to advance spark under light load...Smokey Yunick* also talked about this! Ford used the Mallory system, not a true vac advance. For now issue is getting stock system just right before messing with things...as in do not mess with overall timing until the existing vac brake is working and adjusted.
Doing the degree divisions with paper and compass is a way to bypass the issue of measuring really odd dimensions onto a curved rim...no need to space off 4.73 millimeters while hanging over the radiator, just hold up a segment of your piece of cardboard and copy the marks from one curve to the other. The degrees on the cardboard can be made as accurately as you care by extending the lines, but actual final accuracy is going to depend more on the final marking of the pulley, which is going to be a bit crude in most cases. No need to match protrator size...you just draw all lines from center all the way across the sheet, then cut out the center to match pulley. Where the lines cross the cut they are at right point for that circle, and you can cut the outside however you need to in order to place it against the pulley rim.
Once you get to proper stock settings...time to hit the road and experiment! Each car has its own preferences.
These things were road-raced hard in Argentina; I bet there are some elderly racers down there who know a trick or two.


*Yunick opined that the lack of vac advance was responsible for race engines fouling up during pit stops and slow laps, and also for the continual need for new sparkplugs in racers. Their advance systems were correct only at full throttle and were incapable of proper combustion and power at anything less.

[Harylufa]

Hi!
One question I attach a pict of my dist, I has 7 little line, Is this marks degree?
Dist has already been tested with its 22º and a half in both points as the manual say. The advance (screw) is in the middle.
From my ignorance, if this little line are degree as it is u¡in the middle this would be 0. And I must advance 4º clockwise, I hope be clear.

Thank you!

[Bruce Lancaster]

Correct place for the line is where it ends up after the ruler test shown above. If everything is perfect after 65 years of repairs and wear and changed parts, when you time it that way it will then test at 4 degrees running with your new marks and a timing light...
If it does not correspond precisely, the two methods compared will tell you where 4 really is by your presumably correct new timing marks.
Correct spot is normally very close to center, leaving the slot for use in fine tuning.
The ruler method is a Ford developed expedient method to get timing to specification for those without access to a distributor machine or timing fixture.
Also the Ford method allows you to do all distributor work in comfort in your shop except for the quick removal and replacement, and also to keep a spare distributor that can be bolted on and run without further work.

On the ruler method...note that you could easily build a simple fixture onto a ruler that would insert into the bolt hole and hold the ruler the correct distance out, making the job physically simpler.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Harylufa

From my ignorance, if this little line are degree as it is u¡in the middle this would be 0. And I must advance 4º clockwise, I hope be clear.

Those little lines are about 2 degrees each. The point that yours is set in your picture is right at 4 degrees BTDC. Moving it down (clockwise) will advance even more than the 4 BTDC. Moving it up (counterclockwise) will retard it.

[Straightpipes]

Smokey Yunick must have sold his soul to the devil to know what he knew......Good thing he passed some of it on.......

[Old Henry]

For those of us that never heard of Smokey Yunick, we can read about him here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokey_Yunick

[Bruce Lancaster]

One of his books is readily available...I read it about one sentence at a time and then gape in astonishment at the range of his thinking.
He also published a LOT of good tech in Circle Track magazine, again showing revelation-grade thinking.
A great mind that was eventually funded well enough to try things waaaay beyond normal envelopes.

Imagine if Ford Motor called in Ron, JWL, and Pete, handed each of them a corporate checkbook and a staff of engineers, and turned them loose on a new endeavor: "The new Space Shuttle will be Flathead powered. Have the main launch motors ready to go for blastoff in 2017."

[Harylufa]

Dear Friends!
I see interesting Smokey Yunick, which book you is insteresting to read?

Thank you!

[Hoop]

Harylufa,

¿Te acuerdas? Demasiados cocineros arruinan el guiso.

Si ajusta su distribuidor en la máquina, todo está incluido el anticipo. No es necesario para encontrar TDC. Es así de simple. Sólo tienes que instalar y vamos.

Si hay otra razón para encontrar TDC, debe decirle al foro por qué.

**************************************

Hey, guys, Harylufa lives in Argentina. He's a smart guy but does not get much of a chance to use the English he studied. When you use slang and abbreviations, it is confusing. It's worse when you do not try to understand why he's asking the question.

Back at the beginning of this thread. Brian posted, "Unless I'm missing something, you do not need to identify where TDC is to set the timing. The distributor is set up on the bench and it will only go back in one position so it's impossible to not get it right."

We ended up dangling a nut on a string through the spark plug hole.

Nobody asked why he needed to find TDC. MAYBE there is another reason, but we sure don't know.

Here's Harylufa's version of the KR Wilson distributor fixture:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuzk...ature=youtu.be

[AlDeBear]

Damn Hoop, I know you've been in traction ever since I joined the Ford Barn but long enough to learn Spanish? Geez, I do hope you are up and about real soon! All the best. Larry (P.S.-I AM impressed-good job!)
Harylufa, Buenos dias amigo y digo tambien "Sólo tienes que instalar y vamos." Vamanos!

[Bruce Lancaster]

I assumed he was just plain bothered and disoriented by a car with no timing marks! It is very hard for someone brought up on any other sort of car to absorb the idea that there is no actual need for them until you start getting interested in your running timing curve.
My first car and all of my mechanical apprenticeship was on my Family's '48 Ford, and I had no idea that not having timing marks was at all odd or that it was inconvenient...inconvenient?? Hey, I could remove and replace the distributor from the engine in about a minute, and then time it in the comfort of my room while watching TV if I wanted to.
But...he clearly has an interest in howitallworks and the brains to reverse engineer a way to TDC before anyone explained it to him. He's the sort of person who will find a way regardless!
Harylufa, have you ever run into a man named Alberto Dondi? Argentina is a big place, but there can't be all that many '46 Ford people down there. He's a fellow '46 owner and was on this board some years ago.

[Hoop]

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AlDeBear,

Si mi equipo puede hablar español, puedo hablar español.

( ... shhhhhh, vecino.)

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by Hoop

Harylufa,

¿Te acuerdas? Demasiados cocineros arruinan el guiso.

Si ajusta su distribuidor en la máquina, todo está incluido el anticipo. No es necesario para encontrar TDC. Es así de simple. Sólo tienes que instalar y vamos.

Si hay otra razón para encontrar TDC, debe decirle al foro por qué.

**************************************

Hey, guys, Harylufa lives in Argentina. He's a smart guy but does not get much of a chance to use the English he studied. When you use slang and abbreviations, it is confusing. It's worse when you do not try to understand why he's asking the question.

Back at the beginning of this thread. Brian posted, "Unless I'm missing something, you do not need to identify where TDC is to set the timing. The distributor is set up on the bench and it will only go back in one position so it's impossible to not get it right."

We ended up dangling a nut on a string through the spark plug hole.

Nobody asked why he needed to find TDC. MAYBE there is another reason, but we sure don't know.

Here's Harylufa's version of the KR Wilson distributor fixture:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuzk...ature=youtu.be

Dear Hoop! Muy bien tu Español jaja!!!

It is good to read you again! I set the dist thank to you, and It worked, but the manuals say that I need to my car 4ºBTDC, If I do not know where the TDC is, I have no reference to set the 4ºBTDC.
Hoop you say that setting the dist as you teached with 22.5 degree in each point, I understand now that the dist is 4ºBTDC. Am I right???

As nobody told me that the dist has already 4ºBTDC, perhaps I did not understood because of the language. So I begun looking for the TDC taking the cylinder head out. Well, now I know that the TDC was discovered and marked in the pulley. I thought that now must use a timing light to set the real timing, that´s all.

Bruce!

I do not know Señor Alberto Dondi. You say that he has a 46" Ford? I must investigate about him.

Mis queridos Amigos en verdad estoy aprendiendo mucho con ustedes, muy agradecido por toda la paciencia que tienen al escribir!!!

Ya volvere con mas Noticias!

Harylufa!

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Harylufa

As nobody told me that the dist has already 4ºBTDC, perhaps I did not understood because of the language. So I begun looking for the TDC taking the cylinder head out. Well, now I know that the TDC was discovered and marked in the pulley. I thought that now must use a timing light to set the real timing, that´s all.

Sorry you didn't understand that setting the distributor timing according to instructions with it out of the car actually set it at 4 BTDC so no further adjustment was needed after installing it and no need for a TDC mark or other timing marks. That is how it works.

Now that your timing is set to manufacturer's recommendations you can just leave it there or try improving your vacuum by advancing it some and see if it does. Then try your vacuum advance screwed all the way out and see if you can accelerate or climb hills without pre-mature detonation as previously instructed.

[Harylufa]

Hi!
Today I bought this Professional Vacuum&Fuel Pressure Tester.
It says that it has different uses. Obviously It´s in English.

Tell if you know how many thing can I do in my car?

Harylufa!

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Sorry you didn't understand that setting the distributor timing according to instructions with it out of the car actually set it at 4 BTDC so no further adjustment was needed after installing it and no need for a TDC mark or other timing marks. That is how it works.

Now that your timing is set to manufacturer's recommendations you can just leave it there or try improving your vacuum by advancing it some and see if it does. Then try your vacuum advance screwed all the way out and see if you can accelerate or climb hills without pre-mature detonation as previously instructed.

Old Henry!
Ah oh! So I did no understand that setting the dist was totally set the 4BTDC.
Concerning the vacuum advance I understood all.

Thank you OLd Henry.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Harylufa

Tell if you know how many thing can I do in my car?

You have exactly the same gauge I use and have seen the same one used by many others. The two things I do with it in my car is check the vacuum to maximize it by adjusting the distributor timing and check the fuel pressure coming out of the fuel pump to see if it is between 1.5 and 3.5 psi as recommended. Maybe others do more creative stuff. That's all I do.

[Hoop]

Am I right??? Yes. Your machine was made for the Ford flathead distributor, and the 4 degrees is set automatically.

[Old Henry]

Here's a great animated web site that illustrates all of the things you can test with your gauge. Scroll to the bottom of it and click the different scenarios: http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by Hoop

Am I right??? Yes. Your machine was made for the Ford flathead distributor, and the 4 degrees is set automatically.

Hoop!
Ok, now I know that, I have been going crazy, Old Henry told me that yesterday, then I realized the four little line were 4ºBTDC.

Henry!

I do with it in my car is check the vacuum to maximize it by adjusting the distributor timing How do you do?
It is possible use it with the carburetor? As my Holley 2100 has a hole behind with screw.

Thank you!

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Here's a great animated web site that illustrates all of the things you can test with your gauge. Scroll to the bottom of it and click the different scenarios: http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm

Henry!
It is very interesting the web page!

Thanks!

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Harylufa

I do with it in my car is check the vacuum to maximize it by adjusting the distributor timing How do you do?
It is possible use it with the carburetor? As my Holley 2100 has a hole behind with screw.

To maximize vacuum with a vacuum gauge:

1. Connect your vacuum gauge to a manifold vacuum port. On your car there should be a vacuum port just under the carburetor on the driver's side with a copper tube going toward the front of the engine that ends up at the distributor vacuum advance. Another port comes out of that which is for connecting a vacuum hose to the windshield wipers. That is where I connect my vacuum gauge. If you have that and the hose that goes to the windshield wiper pull the wiper hose off and push the hose for your vacuum gauge on there. Pictured here on mine:

Wiper hose hooked up:



Vacuum gauge hooked up:



2. Slightly loosen the screw on the driver's side of the distributor on the plate that slides to change ignition timing.

3. Start the engine and let it idle.

4. Look at the timing gauge. At your elevation of 21 meters you should show vacuum of around 28-29 inches of mercury on your gauge and your timing of 4 BTDC should already be optimal. Now, if want to see if you can increase that vacuum gauge reading, slide the timing screw/plate down on the distributor and look at the gauge to see how that change affects the reading. If it's higher, that's better. The higher the better. If it's lower, move the screw/plate up and see if that's any better. Anyway, move the screw/plate up and down until you maximize your vacuum. Then you'll know that your engine is running as efficiently as possible - that is - you are getting the most power out of every explosion in the cylinder that you can get.

5. Be sure to tighten the timing screw securely when you're finished.

[Harylufa]

Dear Old Henry!

Very, very clear you explanation! I attach a picture showing how is the vacuum port.
You will see a "T" from carb base to servo brake, in the middle there is a T that connect to windshield wiper (never worked).
As the servo brake works with vacuum, Is this ok? Is not it affecting carburetor and distributor?
Than you.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Harylufa

Dear Old Henry!

Very, very clear you explanation! I attach a picture showing how is the vacuum port.
You will see a "T" from carb base to servo brake, in the middle there is a T that connect to windshield wiper (never worked).
As the servo brake works with vacuum, Is this ok? Is not it affecting carburetor and distributor?
Than you.

Connect your vacuum gauge in place of the windshield wiper hose.

Servo brake does not affect carburetor or distributor as long as it is not leaking. If it was leaking engine would not idle smoothly so probably not leaking.

[Harylufa]

HI!
Today I install the vacuum gauge and the needle pointed to the part green, It seem to be motor in conditions.

And I forgot to tell you that I have rotten muffler tailpipe and I left it to someone who repair this. I have doubt if is blocked the rotter? (silencer?) It is causing my high temperature.

THank you!

[George/Maine]

If I were you i,d remove that so caller blower or what ever it is.
Did this engine ever run good?

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by George/Maine

If I were you i,d remove that so caller blower or what ever it is.

I believe that blower looking thing you're referring to is his servo (power) brake mechanism.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Harylufa

HI!
Today I install the vacuum gauge and the needle pointed to the part green, It seem to be motor in conditions.

Did you try changing the timing to see if you could get any more vacuum on the gauge?

[George/Maine]

I was reading and old book and says .
When TDC is found that mark will be 4degs BTDC,and when using the fixture drop it in and forget it.
If no fix gauge NOW ,you can use your timing light and put it on the mark that you made.Thats 4 BTDC.
Don,t use one of those new timing lights.

[Harylufa]

Dear Friends!
One question, perhaps I am making mistake.
1) Dist rotate clockwise? Pulley from crankshaft rotate clockwise. Am I right?
I am confused now.

Today I drove to Buenos Aires City and my car rised temperature. I know that I insist all the time, but I can not solve the problem yet, perhaps is something wrong I have done or I have read.
Thank you!

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by George/Maine

If I were you i,d remove that so caller blower or what ever it is.
Did this engine ever run good?

Hi!

the power brake had been for years, never had some problem, but as I posted till go on raising temperature.
Someone told that there is much sediment into the engine, could be one of the problem.

Thanks

[Old Henry]

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Originally Posted by Harylufa

Today I drove to Buenos Aires City and my car rised temperature. I know that I insist all the time, but I can not solve the problem yet, perhaps is something wrong I have done or I have read.

Originally Posted by Harylufa

as I posted till go on raising temperature.
Someone told that there is much sediment into the engine, could be one of the problem.

Hary,

Back to your original problem with "raising temperature" and "rised temperature." As you may have read in response to this problem before, flathead engines run hot because the exhaust from the cylinders goes back into the engine block before exiting the block into the exhaust manifold. That's why there is such a big radiator, two water pumps, and 4 hoses to cool the engine unlike modern engines that have small radiators, one pump, and two hoses. So, it is expected and normal for the flathead engine to run hotter than what modern engines do.

However, that apparent hot engine can be deceiving. Modern cooling systems typically have a 15 lb radiator cap on them so that they can get much hotter before boiling over than our flathead engines that only have a 4 lb radiator cap. Still, with a 4 lb radiator cap at your elevation of 21 meters the water in your engine should not boil out until it reaches 240 degrees farenheit. As long as the water doesn't boil out, you have no worries. The engine will not be damaged at any temperature below the temperature that the water boils out of it. Of course, if the water ever does get hot enough to boil out of the engine the engine must be stopped immediately and let cool before continuing or it will be damaged.

Another thing is the way the temperature gauges read in these old Fords. My temperature gauge reads between 1/2 and 3/4 on the gauge at normal operating temperature even in the winter and I've never had the water boil out even when the gauge reads at the maximum temperature. Comparaing that to modern temperature gauges, they typically read way below 1/2 at normal operating temperatures. That can lead one to believe that when the old Ford gauge reads so much higher that it must be too hot. It is not. It is normal for the gauge to read much higher in our old Fords than in modern cars.

The best idea I have for you is this: Drive your car around and get it up to operating temperature and maybe what you think is too hot. Then go home, turn off the engine, then turn the ignition back on so that the temperature gauge will still work, put a rag over the radiator cap and carefully open the radiator cap just enough to let out any pressure that there is. If the water is trying to steam out close the cap. If the pressure is released such that you can finish removing the radiator cap, take it off and insert a liquid thermometer such as your wife might use in the kitchen to make candy into the radiator water and see what temperature it is. You will most likely find it well below 200F. Whatever the temperature is, note that as you look at your temperature gauge in the dashboard and see what it reads corresponding to the temperature on the thermometer. Now you will have a known reference point on your gauge that you know what the water temperature is when the gauge points to that spot. If the temperature is under 200F you're fine. Remember, at your elevation the water is not going to boil out of your engine until it reaches 240F and until it reaches that temperature and actually boils out you have no worries.

I'm not sure what "sediment" you are talking about in your engine but if it's oil sludge, that will not affect engine operating temperature.

You have cleaned out your radiator and done everything that you can for the engine to run as cool as it will. After checking the actual temperature of the water compared to the reading on your gauge you should be able to relax and drive without worrying about "temperature rise" until the water actually starts boiling out of the radiator. That is not likely going to happen with your clean radiator.

I hope all of this helps.

Relax. Drive your car and enjoy it. Don't worry about the temperature.

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Hary,

Back to your original problem with "raising temperature" and "rised temperature." As you may have read in response to this problem before, flathead engines run hot because the exhaust from the cylinders goes back into the engine block before exiting the block into the exhaust manifold. That's why there is such a big radiator, two water pumps, and 4 hoses to cool the engine unlike modern engines that have small radiators, one pump, and two hoses. So, it is expected and normal for the flathead engine to run hotter than what modern engines do.

However, that apparent hot engine can be deceiving. Modern cooling systems typically have a 15 lb radiator cap on them so that they can get much hotter before boiling over than our flathead engines that only have a 4 lb radiator cap. Still, with a 4 lb radiator cap at your elevation of 21 meters the water in your engine should not boil out until it reaches 240 degrees farenheit. As long as the water doesn't boil out, you have no worries. The engine will not be damaged at any temperature below the temperature that the water boils out of it. Of course, if the water ever does get hot enough to boil out of the engine the engine must be stopped immediately and let cool before continuing or it will be damaged.

Another thing is the way the temperature gauges read in these old Fords. My temperature gauge reads between 1/2 and 3/4 on the gauge at normal operating temperature even in the winter and I've never had the water boil out even when the gauge reads at the maximum temperature. Comparaing that to modern temperature gauges, they typically read way below 1/2 at normal operating temperatures. That can lead one to believe that when the old Ford gauge reads so much higher that it must be too hot. It is not. It is normal for the gauge to read much higher in our old Fords than in modern cars.

The best idea I have for you is this: Drive your car around and get it up to operating temperature and maybe what you think is too hot. Then go home, turn off the engine, then turn the ignition back on so that the temperature gauge will still work, put a rag over the radiator cap and carefully open the radiator cap just enough to let out any pressure that there is. If the water is trying to steam out close the cap. If the pressure is released such that you can finish removing the radiator cap, take it off and insert a liquid thermometer such as your wife might use in the kitchen to make candy into the radiator water and see what temperature it is. You will most likely find it well below 200F. Whatever the temperature is, note that as you look at your temperature gauge in the dashboard and see what it reads corresponding to the temperature on the thermometer. Now you will have a known reference point on your gauge that you know what the water temperature is when the gauge points to that spot. If the temperature is under 200F you're fine. Remember, at your elevation the water is not going to boil out of your engine until it reaches 240F and until it reaches that temperature and actually boils out you have no worries.

I'm not sure what "sediment" you are talking about in your engine but if it's oil sludge, that will not affect engine operating temperature.

You have cleaned out your radiator and done everything that you can for the engine to run as cool as it will. After checking the actual temperature of the water compared to the reading on your gauge you should be able to relax and drive without worrying about "temperature rise" until the water actually starts boiling out of the radiator. That is not likely going to happen with your clean radiator.

I hope all of this helps.

Relax. Drive your car and enjoy it. Don't worry about the temperature.

DearHenry!

Modern cooling systems typically have a 15 lb radiator cap on them so that they can get much hotter before boiling over than our flathead engines that only have a 4 lb radiator cap.

What is the original radiator cap in lb that came from factory??
my radiator cap does not fit or tighten.
Thank for clear explanation.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Harylufa

DearHenry!

Modern cooling systems typically have a 15 lb radiator cap on them so that they can get much hotter before boiling over than our flathead engines that only have a 4 lb radiator cap.

What is the original radiator cap in lb that came from factory??
my radiator cap does not fit or tighten.
Thank for clear explanation.

The original radiator cap on our engines is 4 lb. available here: http://macsautoparts.com/early-v8-fo...0R3CHL1075611/

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Hary,

Back to your original problem with "raising temperature" and "rised temperature." As you may have read in response to this problem before, flathead engines run hot because the exhaust from the cylinders goes back into the engine block before exiting the block into the exhaust manifold. That's why there is such a big radiator, two water pumps, and 4 hoses to cool the engine unlike modern engines that have small radiators, one pump, and two hoses. So, it is expected and normal for the flathead engine to run hotter than what modern engines do.

However, that apparent hot engine can be deceiving. Modern cooling systems typically have a 15 lb radiator cap on them so that they can get much hotter before boiling over than our flathead engines that only have a 4 lb radiator cap. Still, with a 4 lb radiator cap at your elevation of 21 meters the water in your engine should not boil out until it reaches 240 degrees farenheit. As long as the water doesn't boil out, you have no worries. The engine will not be damaged at any temperature below the temperature that the water boils out of it. Of course, if the water ever does get hot enough to boil out of the engine the engine must be stopped immediately and let cool before continuing or it will be damaged.

Another thing is the way the temperature gauges read in these old Fords. My temperature gauge reads between 1/2 and 3/4 on the gauge at normal operating temperature even in the winter and I've never had the water boil out even when the gauge reads at the maximum temperature. Comparaing that to modern temperature gauges, they typically read way below 1/2 at normal operating temperatures. That can lead one to believe that when the old Ford gauge reads so much higher that it must be too hot. It is not. It is normal for the gauge to read much higher in our old Fords than in modern cars.

The best idea I have for you is this: Drive your car around and get it up to operating temperature and maybe what you think is too hot. Then go home, turn off the engine, then turn the ignition back on so that the temperature gauge will still work, put a rag over the radiator cap and carefully open the radiator cap just enough to let out any pressure that there is. If the water is trying to steam out close the cap. If the pressure is released such that you can finish removing the radiator cap, take it off and insert a liquid thermometer such as your wife might use in the kitchen to make candy into the radiator water and see what temperature it is. You will most likely find it well below 200F. Whatever the temperature is, note that as you look at your temperature gauge in the dashboard and see what it reads corresponding to the temperature on the thermometer. Now you will have a known reference point on your gauge that you know what the water temperature is when the gauge points to that spot. If the temperature is under 200F you're fine. Remember, at your elevation the water is not going to boil out of your engine until it reaches 240F and until it reaches that temperature and actually boils out you have no worries.

I'm not sure what "sediment" you are talking about in your engine but if it's oil sludge, that will not affect engine operating temperature.

You have cleaned out your radiator and done everything that you can for the engine to run as cool as it will. After checking the actual temperature of the water compared to the reading on your gauge you should be able to relax and drive without worrying about "temperature rise" until the water actually starts boiling out of the radiator. That is not likely going to happen with your clean radiator.

I hope all of this helps.

Relax. Drive your car and enjoy it. Don't worry about the temperature.

Originally Posted by Old Henry

The original radiator cap on our engines is 4 lb. available here: http://macsautoparts.com/early-v8-fo...0R3CHL1075611/

Henry!

Thank you very much! I will buy one!

[JWL]

To answer your question----the distributor and the crankshaft rotate in opposite directions. If you stand in front of your car and look at the engine the crankshaft turns like a clock and the camshaft(distributor) turns anti-clockwise.(counter clockwise)

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by JWL

To answer your question----the distributor and the crankshaft rotate in opposite directions. If you stand in front of your car and look at the engine the crankshaft turns like a clock and the camshaft(distributor) turns anti-clockwise.(counter clockwise)

HI JWL!

Ok very clear.

Thank you very much

[Harylufa]

Dear Friends!
I have a Ford Holley 2100. I d like to know if I can connect the vacuum gauge in the hole shown in the picture. Can I make any reading there?

I attach an illustrative picture that you can see what I mean.

Thank you!

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Harylufa

Dear Friends!
I have a Ford Holley 2100. I d like to know if I can connect the vacuum gauge in the hole shown in the picture. Can I make any reading there?

I don't know what that port is on your Holley 2100 carb but I doubt that it is a vacuum port since it is above the throttle plates. The only vacuum is below the throttle plates.

Why don't you use the windshield wiper vacuum hose port? I can not think of a better source for intake manifold vacuum to use with your gauge to read it.

[flatjack9]

That measures venturi vacuum and is used to operate the Ford "Loadamatic" distributor used on 49 and up engines. Does not represent engine vacuum.

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

I don't know what that port is on your Holley 2100 carb but I doubt that it is a vacuum port since it is above the throttle plates. The only vacuum is below the throttle plates.

Why don't you use the windshield wiper vacuum hose port? I can not think of a better source for intake manifold vacuum to use with your gauge to read it.

Dear Henry!

I used the windshield wiper vacuum port to read how my car is with the gauge.
I have only curiosity because i did not know what that hole is.
vacuum gauge read MOTOR NORMAL ,needle pointed in number 20 (green range)

Thank you.

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by flatjack9

That measures venturi vacuum and is used to operate the Ford "Loadamatic" distributor used on 49 and up engines. Does not represent engine vacuum.

Hi Flatjack9!

Thank you for your info.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

The best idea I have for you is this: Drive your car around and get it up to operating temperature and maybe what you think is too hot. Then go home, turn off the engine, then turn the ignition back on so that the temperature gauge will still work, put a rag over the radiator cap and carefully open the radiator cap just enough to let out any pressure that there is. If the water is trying to steam out close the cap. If the pressure is released such that you can finish removing the radiator cap, take it off and insert a liquid thermometer such as your wife might use in the kitchen to make candy into the radiator water and see what temperature it is. You will most likely find it well below 200F. Whatever the temperature is, note that as you look at your temperature gauge in the dashboard and see what it reads corresponding to the temperature on the thermometer. Now you will have a known reference point on your gauge that you know what the water temperature is when the gauge points to that spot. If the temperature is under 200F you're fine. Remember, at your elevation the water is not going to boil out of your engine until it reaches 240F and until it reaches that temperature and actually boils out you have no worries.

Here is an illustration of what I'm talking about.
I just drove my '47 around enough to warm up the engine. It's 0C (32F) outside but with the thermostats it still warmed up to operating temperature. Then I came home, kept the engine running, opened the radiator cap and stuck my wife's candy thermometer in the radiator. Here's what I got. As you can see, even though my gauge reads almost to 3/4 the actual water temperature is only 60C (140F). That radiator water temperature is probably less than the actual engine temperature because I'm not sure that the engine temperature was hot enough to open the thermostats. If so, then the engine temperature could not be over 70C (160F) because that's the temperature that the thermostats open. But, I think it still shows how the old Ford temperature gauges read hot, that is, they give the impression that the engine is a lot hotter than it really is compared to modern temperature gauges. I believe my temperature gauge is quite accurate because I recently installed a new temperature sending unit in the engine.

If you really want to know how hot your engine is when you think it's too hot you'll need to do this same test so that you'll know and can relax and quit worrying about it.

[larrys40]

Not sure what the point is in marking the pulley with a pre-timed distributor. I set them up on a Fod Heyer stroboscope and they run great. Big difference in setting them by the static method or by chance and by golly vs the stroboscope.

Without a degree wheel in place of the distributor I'm not sure you would get it right on. Again... not sure what the point is with a pre-timed distributor,

[Fordors]

As flatjack has said there is definitely vacuum in a carburetor. Manifold vacuum is what is measured to determine the condition of an engine, or it's operating efficiency, but venturi vacuum must be present or fuel would never be pulled from the float chamber as the throttle is opened.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by larrys40

Not sure what the point is in marking the pulley with a pre-timed distributor. Again... not sure what the point is with a pre-timed distributor,

Harylufa did not understand that setting the timing of the distributor on the bench actually set it at 4 deg BTDC. He thought it set it at TDC and that he needed a timing mark to set 4 BTDC. Now he knows better.

[Harylufa]

Dear Henry!
Thank for posting pictures, yesterday I drove for 30 minutes and when I arrived home I tested the next:
-cylinder heads 94ºC
-radiator water 88ºC
-hose out of the water pump 78ºC
-botton of the radiator in tubes 86ºC
-upper of radiator 90ºC

next time I will post picture as you did.

thank you very much

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by larrys40

Not sure what the point is in marking the pulley with a pre-timed distributor. I set them up on a Fod Heyer stroboscope and they run great. Big difference in setting them by the static method or by chance and by golly vs the stroboscope.

Without a degree wheel in place of the distributor I'm not sure you would get it right on. Again... not sure what the point is with a pre-timed distributor,

Hi!

I set my dist in a manual machine wheel with It degree, with 22º and half as the manual says. I know now that It has 4ºBTDC.

Now with a stroboscope should coincide my dist with 4ºBTDC in the pulley marked.

I did the mark in pulley because I thought It was necessary to set the timing.

I hope you understand me.

Thank you

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Harylufa

Dear Henry!
Thank for posting pictures, yesterday I drove for 30 minutes and when I arrived home I tested the next:
-cylinder heads 94ºC
-radiator water 88ºC
-hose out of the water pump 78ºC
-botton of the radiator in tubes 86ºC
-upper of radiator 90ºC

next time I will post picture as you did.

thank you very much

All of those temperatures being under 100C (212F) you're OK. No worries.
What did your dashboard gauge read at those temperatures?

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

All of those temperatures being under 100C (212F) you're OK. No worries.
What did your dashboard gauge read at those temperatures?

Hi!
It mark in the middle in dashboard gauge.

Thanks

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Harylufa

It mark in the middle in dashboard gauge.

Well, there you have it. As you can see, the temperature gauges are not even consistent. Mine reads nearly 3/4 at 60C while yours reads 1/2 at 88C. Mine's probably a bit high and yours might even be a bit low. So, we just drive it and if it starts boiling out the radiator cap we stop and let it cool and add some more water and go on down the road. That's about it.

Now, it you hadn't cleaned out your radiator then that is something that you could do. But, since you have, you've done everything you can to keep it as cool as you can and now you just drive it and not worry about it.

[Harylufa]

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Originally Posted by Old Henry

Well, there you have it. As you can see, the temperature gauges are not even consistent. Mine reads nearly 3/4 at 60C while yours reads 1/2 at 88C. Mine's probably a bit high and yours might even be a bit low. So, we just drive it and if it starts boiling out the radiator cap we stop and let it cool and add some more water and go on down the road. That's about it.

Now, it you hadn't cleaned out your radiator then that is something that you could do. But, since you have, you've done everything you can to keep it as cool as you can and now you just drive it and not worry about it.

Dear Henry!

I found soot into the exhaust inlet Is it normal, I have been using a bad carb (dodge 1500) for 14 years, Now I have for first time Holley 2100.

Can soot raise the temperature in the intake manifold?
Is it possible that is full of soot in exhaust manifold?

Thank you.

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Well, there you have it. As you can see, the temperature gauges are not even consistent. Mine reads nearly 3/4 at 60C while yours reads 1/2 at 88C. Mine's probably a bit high and yours might even be a bit low. So, we just drive it and if it starts boiling out the radiator cap we stop and let it cool and add some more water and go on down the road. That's about it.

Now, it you hadn't cleaned out your radiator then that is something that you could do. But, since you have, you've done everything you can to keep it as cool as you can and now you just drive it and not worry about it.

Henry!

I am trying to discard many possible causes. Concerning the radiator water is almost 88ºC, but I need to discard other thing.

Thank you

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Harylufa

Dear Henry!

I found soot into the exhaust inlet Is it normal, I have been using a bad carb (dodge 1500) for 14 years, Now I have for first time Holley 2100.

Can soot raise the temperature in the intake manifold?
Is it possible that is full of soot in exhaust manifold?

Thank you.

If a bad carburetor had been running rich it could cause soot in the exhaust but such doesn't hurt anything and doesn't raise engine temperature.

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

If a bad carburetor had been running rich it could cause soot in the exhaust but such doesn't hurt anything and doesn't raise engine temperature.

Henry!

Ok, thank you!

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Harylufa

Henry!

I am trying to discard many possible causes. Concerning the radiator water is almost 88ºC, but I need to discard other thing.

Thank you

Now that you have cleaned the radiator, replaced the water pumps, and set the timing just right there is nothing else you can do to make your engine run cooler other than taking the engine out, taking everything out of it (pistons, valves, etc) and boiling it out to clean out any deposits on the cooling surfaces that may be interfering with cooling.

Be sure to put antifreeze into the radiator water to raise the boiling temperature to reduce the possiblilty of boiling over and prevent corrosion and rust in the engine. You might also put "Water Wetter" or similar into the radiator that might help a very small amount cooling better.

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Now that you have cleaned the radiator, replaced the water pumps, and set the timing just right there is nothing else you can do to make your engine run cooler other than taking the engine out, taking everything out of it (pistons, valves, etc) and boiling it out to clean out any deposits on the cooling surfaces that may be interfering with cooling.

Be sure to put antifreeze into the radiator water to raise the boiling temperature to reduce the possiblilty of boiling over and prevent corrosion and rust in the engine. You might also put "Water Wetter" or similar into the radiator that might help a very small amount cooling better.

Henry!

Yes, I did many thing, I hope that sediment into the engine is not the cause of rise temperature.

Thank you.

[41ford1]

Originally Posted by Harylufa

Dear Henry!

I found soot into the exhaust inlet Is it normal, I have been using a bad carb (dodge 1500) for 14 years, Now I have for first time Holley 2100.

Can soot raise the temperature in the intake manifold?
Is it possible that is full of soot in exhaust manifold?

Thank you.

Which carb produced the soot? Soot would be an indicator of a rich mixture which tends to run cooler. If you are not boiling over run it like Henry says. By your temp numbers you are not hitting the boiling point of straight water. If the 2100 is making the soot it may be jetted too rich. The jets should be #51s for a flathead. The power valve should be a 6.5 to 7.5.

[ken ct]

I would use .049's and a 5.5 power valve. OMO ken ct. and a leather accelerator pump of the correct length. ken ct.

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by ken ct

I would use .049's and a 5.5 power valve. OMO ken ct. and a leather accelerator pump of the correct length. ken ct.

Hi Ken!

Nice to hear you again! Please look my valve in other thread.
Here is not valve 5.5. Here I can get 4,5 and 6,5

Thank you.

[ken ct]

You might get by with a 5.0.I use 5.5 and a 5 is pretty close to that.Do not use a gasket on it that has a triangular hole in it ,you need the correct gasket for it.ken ct.usa

[Harylufa]

Dear Henry!
Tell me how is this part called and I attach this parts that is in my car. There was a little hole and I did it bigger. I thought It could be better, am I right? or I did something wrong.
Must I make any modification?

Thank you

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Harylufa

Dear Henry!
Tell me how is this part called and I attach this parts that is in my car. There was a little hole and I did it bigger. I thought It could be better, am I right? or I did something wrong.
Must I make any modification?

Thank you

The part that you are asking about is the end of the distributor vacuum tube that runs to the vacuum advance mechanism on the distributor. It is Ford part number 12226 shown here: http://macsautoparts.com/early-v8-fo...0R3CHL1072878/

You did not need to enlarge that hole. As long as the fitting still seals so that there is no vacuum leak you do not need to make further modification.

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

The part that you are asking about is the end of the distributor vacuum tube that runs to the vacuum advance mechanism on the distributor. It is Ford part number 12226 shown here: http://macsautoparts.com/early-v8-fo...0R3CHL1072878/

You did not need to enlarge that hole. As long as the fitting still seals so that there is no vacuum leak you do not need to make further modification.

Dear Henry!

Ok, i should not worry about that hole. The small tube was empty of dust.

Than for this info.