Losing Oil Pressure

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Been driving my roadster after the repair and I have an oil pressure issue. After running at speed and I come to make a sharp left or right at a full stop my oil pressure drops to zero and giving it any gas results in some engine noise. I of course just roll until the oil pressure comes back up but this does concern me. It does not happen all the time just once in a while.

I am running 20-50 oil, 4 qts, no filter.

Before I start pulling the pan (which I want to do just to perhaps allay my fears - I do not want to lose the engine because of stupidity) I wanted to hear your thoughts. Cold weather issue? Oil pump loose or moving because of the hard right or lefts?

I appreciate your input .... Thanks ....

BTW - my oil pressure gauge is under my dash, is mechanical, and has a rather long run to the block using a braided steel line.

[Ross F-1]

Is this a 59 or 8BA style engine? Have you tried running a 1/2 quart more oil? If it's an 8BA could be the wrong pickup for the pan you have.

[JSeery]

Sounds like somehow you are uncovering the pickup tube/screen. Could be something in the pickup tube is loose or has a hole or is missing, etc.

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Originally Posted by Ross F-1

Is this a 59 or 8BA style engine? Have you tried running a 1/2 quart more oil? If it's an 8BA could be the wrong pickup for the pan you have.

Sorry - it's a 59 engine ....

[D. Jones]

I would be very concerned. No oil pressure is just that and can quickly lead to disaster. For what ever reason the pump isn't picking up the oil. If it were me I'd pull the engine and find out what is going on.

[V8COOPMAN]

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Well, that part about "giving it any gas results in some engine noise" should pretty-well make it clear that it's not a gauge issue. Sounds like it's time to pull the pan and take a peek.......pronto! DD

[4tford]

Drain the oil and shine a flashlight through the drain hole and see how far the screen on the pickup is from the bottom of the pan. As stated may be the wrong pickup. Should be about 1/2 inch from the bottom of the screen to the bottom of the pan.

[KGS]

Sounds like a cracked or partially broken pickup tube. As V8 C'Man said
pull the pan. Ken

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Thanks gents - I don't think I would be comfortable NOT pulling the pan to be sure ... just needed a little further insight from here.

BTW - this is the same oil pump that's been on the engine since day one (we are talking years here) so the incorrect p-up is not likely.

I will let you know my findings when all is said and done ....

[OLD...BILL]

happened to me , back in the day ?? intermitent oil pressure ?? engine making noise all the time ... pulled pan and found the flange not welded all around to the pickup tube, I was so proud I had bought NEW pick up tube with can and new screen so nice and clean... showed it to the parts guy, gave me break on a set of rod bearings, one little spot of bras to seal the hole at the flange, back to gather, ran good / with good oil pressure and ran for years, then sold, dam wish I still had it.?? 40 deluxe coupe.... OLD.....BILL

[Mart]

Isn't the oil capacity supposed to be 5 US quarts or 4 Imperial quarts?

While it may indeed be a problem associated with the oil pickup, it may just be that you want more oil in there. I'd be tempted to add a quart and reassess. If the problem persists, pull it apart. If the problem disappears then mark the dipstick at the 5 quart level and maintain it at that level.

The dipstick on my 21stud was setting the oil level 3/4" too low. when I allowed the level to go too low, the oil pressure became erratic.

Mart.

[Kube]

Tom, I have witnessed this a number of times. Each and every time it was one of two things...
1) Baffle absent from the pan.
2) sump gasket is leaking and / or cracked tube.

If it turns out to be as simple as low on oil, well... GREAT!

That discussion of how much oil (capacity) has been going on forever. I wish just one guy other than myself would actually go the to friggin' Ford Archives and check the drawings. It is FIVE US quarts with or without a filter.
Sorry about my "tone". It is not directed at you as I am well aware that you are a sharp guy. Rather, it is directed at all of those that continue to speculate and pass on hearsay.

[flatjack9]

There you go. Add 1 quart.

[BILL WZOREK]

Tom When the car was in for repair was the pan off for any reason.
This is the same engine correct.
Regardless of 4 or 5 qt's you always put 4 qt's in before this with no noted problems correct ....

[WestCoast]

I may be wrong, but don't those pick up tubes float up and down as the oil movies forward and back on acceleration and stopping, to help keep the screen in the oil, maybe yours is hanging up

[Binx]

Originally Posted by WestCoast

I may be wrong, but don't those pick up tubes float up and down as the oil movies forward and back on acceleration and stopping, to help keep the screen in the oil, maybe yours is hanging up

No, these are rigid tube stationary pickups. BUT I have worked on a couple aircraft hydraulic reservoirs that work as you describe.

Lonnie

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Originally Posted by BILL WZOREK

Tom When the car was in for repair was the pan off for any reason.
This is the same engine correct.
Regardless of 4 or 5 qt's you always put 4 qt's in before this with no noted problems correct ....

Yes to everything - you've seen and heard this engine ....

Pan was off to redo the clutch and pressure plate, pan seals, used a 1-pc front seal.

[41ford1]

Originally Posted by TomT/Williamsburg

Yes to everything - you've seen and heard this engine ....

Pan was off to redo the clutch and pressure plate, pan seals, used a 1-pc front seal.

Tom, Pull the pan and check the pick up tube. It might have been damaged when the clutch was replaced. Hopefully no damage was done. Kube is correct 5 quarts to fill a 59, with or without a filter.

[Bruce Lancaster]

I think pickup is likeliest problem since this is new trouble...
But Kube is right, 5 quarts is simply correct. Its in the specs, it was in the specs for 20 years, any number of sources confirm this. It does NOT relate to filter* or no filter...whatever the filter chooses to puddle up is the filter's business, and the 5 spec applied to '32's that had no oil filter even available as well as to '48 Super Deluxes that had the filter Standard!
Yes, 5 puts the level a bit over full on the stick and it does that on every flathead with many variants of sticks. That was fine, and quite apparently what Ford intended, the upper level was OK there as a flathead pan did not put the level up into crankshaft. The lower line was the point at which something needed to be done, the area between 5 quarts and low was the running range. None of these things was intended to start out with 4 after a change.





* I think this is actually Volkswagen thinking, severely muddle by history and transmitted into the Ford camp. Early beetles had an engine capacity ending in a fraction, and the extra was for the AIR filter change supposed to happen with oil change...

[Tony, NY]

I recently noticed this 4 qt thing in my Motors Manual that covers my '51 Merc motor. It showed 4 qts for Ford and 5 qts for Mercury. I couldn't understand why they would be different.

[Bruce Lancaster]

Ok, that one is correct...the one pan the differs from usual flathead sumps because of the steering linkage in the shoebox Ford! Merc and F1's kept the basic early sump shape and remained at 5. I haven't been watching the press releases on these late-model Fords, obviously! The only later Ford engines I've messed with all had the 8BA pan immediately discarded for truck or merc parts to fit into an early!

[Karl Wolf]

I have a (bought used by me) 59AB that I ran for a while, did the same thing... I pulled the drain plug, pulled the pick up down- that fixed the problem...

Karl

[BILL WZOREK]

Originally Posted by TomT/Williamsburg

Yes to everything - you've seen and heard this engine ....

Pan was off to redo the clutch and pressure plate, pan seals, used a 1-pc front seal.

Tom: was the engine out of the car when you removed & reinstalled the pan ?
or was it still in the car ?

Also did you do this part of the work or was it done by others?
Either way is it possible that the oil pick up got Hit & bent ?
( I don't think it could bend that way but who knows )

This part I am not trying to be a smart Alek but is it at all possible you got called away when putting the oil back in & only got 3 Qt's in.

If you haven't dropped the oil yet why don't you do that & measure how much comes out.
Then put in the amount you normally do and see what happens.
I know oil is not cheap but it may be as simple as that.

[chap52]

Eventually you will be laying on the floor looking up at the bottom of the engine...Listen to Bill Wzorek and start by finding out how much oil is in the engine. You will be draining it to drop the pan anyway. And if its a new batch filter it through a nylon stocking and put it back in the engine. (Old 1960's flashback)
I am sure you won't be starting it up just to see if it fixed itself overnight. None of us have ever done that!
I leaning towards a bent or cracked pick up tube.
Good luck, keep us posted.

[supereal]

We routinely braze the pickup tube to the oil pump. The swedged connection has a nasty habit of working loose. As to oil level, five quarts doesn't cause a problem, but if you are having an oil leak at the rear main seal, or have the slinger type "seal", four quarts will usually stem the leak before it lubricates your clutch disk.

[TomT/Williamsburg]

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Originally Posted by BILL WZOREK

Tom: was the engine out of the car when you removed & reinstalled the pan ?
or was it still in the car ?

Also did you do this part of the work or was it done by others?
Either way is it possible that the oil pick up got Hit & bent ?
( I don't think it could bend that way but who knows )

This part I am not trying to be a smart Alek but is it at all possible you got called away when putting the oil back in & only got 3 Qt's in.

If you haven't dropped the oil yet why don't you do that & measure how much comes out.
Then put in the amount you normally do and see what happens.
I know oil is not cheap but it may be as simple as that.

Bill - engine was out, upside down on an engine stand. I do not remember the pump getting bumped or anything else. As for the amount of oil installed, I always buy a 5 qt container, pour off 1 qt for "on the road" use to an empty 1 qt container, I add zddp to the 4 qt balance and it's ready. The 4 qt balance in the container is labeled "zddp ready". So, I know 4 qts were installed. I have not seen anything underneath the car save for the normal couple drops of any flathead marking its territory.

I have not had time to do squat lately but I hope to at least drop the oil and check where the pickup is in the next day or so .... I will keep you all posted ....

Thanks a bunch guys - I really appreciate the suggestions.

[El Rat]

Well I wonder how many folks have actually taken a clean pan leveled it and added 5 quarts? It's an old racer trick...obviously you don't want to run the crank in the oil. I digress, it seems to me that the pick-up has moved, cracked, fallen off or some such. The pump may also have loosened up. Regardless pull the pan. One must ask: How much oil is held up in the filter? Does it seem reasonable that 5 quarts would be perfect with or without?
As an aside my AB does just fine with 4 quarts and I don't use a filter for anything except small parts storage. Actually excellent for that does requir short tools. g

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Dropped the oil in the roadster to see if there is anything amiss with the oil pump. It seems fine, not loose nor did the pickup drop down. So what I may do is run some slick 50 and/or stp to coat the parts and give it some additional oil other than the normal 4 QTS I put in. I changed thermos to 180s vs the 160s so she does not allow warm water through the block until a higher temp. Because it's an open engine compartment it never really gets above 150 normally. Would that impede oil flow in cold weather running 20-50? Maybe I should run the Rotella in the winter? What gets me it never did this before and the only real change is different thermos.
Your thoughts?

[VeryTangled]

Hi Tom, Isn't the one real change that you got thumped in the rear?

Couldn't quite follow if the clutch work was prior to the other work, or during. (If prior to the other work, then you're saying it was running fine after the clutch job. If during the other work then the clutch/pan could still be part of the puzzle.)

But my sense is a oil pickup issue because you're pretty confident about the quantity issue. You're happy going straight, the system functions then. What happens when you turn? You get that slosh to the outside of the turn in the oil pan, and... gurk, metal-on-metal.

Maybe you could simulate things safely? Put one side of the car up on jackstands simulating the corner, spin the engine without starting, and see what the pressure is. At least that confirms your seat-of-the-pants experience. I can't decide if that's stupid or not.

Also, let's say you're sucking air into the pump instead of oil, wouldn't that foam up the oil? Is there any way to safely investigate that? I guess not because you'd have to drive it to do that test. Hmmm.

Hoping for the best as I follow along.

[EDIT] Changing to the 180 stats gets the engine to that temp quicker, right. That takes your multi-vis oil to it's hot rating quicker, which is SAE-50. With the SAE-50 oil, shouldn't the pressure be up just a tick over something thinner, like SAE-30 or SAE-40? So I don't think the stats or viscosity ratings are part of the puzzle. Thicker oil means higher resistance means higher pressure, eh? (If that is correct, pressure should come up naturally as the oil transitions from the SAE-20 (thin/cold) to the SAE-50.) It seems to me that some of the old hands speak more of flow quantity than of pressure. Regardless I'm on the side that your issue is oil starvation.

[BILL WZOREK]

Tom I know you have always run 4 Qt's of oil but just for S???? & Giggles why don't you try 1 extra Qt to see if any thing improves.
Also did you measure to see if you got 4 QT'S OUT ?
Ok here is another thought every thing was cool before you got rear ended.
Is it at all possible that when every thing got pushed forward that there was enough stress put on the Crank & Block that it caused a crack some where in the oil passages that is now starting to raze it's ugly head ?
New parts causing different harmonic vibrations causing the crack to open.
I hope you can tell me I am all wrong.
I'm very interested in what it is that you find.

[Ross F-1]

Is there any chance that getting hit damaged the oil pressure gauge itself, or the line running to it? Stranger things have happened.

I wouldn't cloud the issue with Slick 50 or STP, just add a quart of whatever you're running.

[BILL WZOREK]

Tom
Oil gauge Mechanical or Electrical ?
If Electrical what would a loose wire connection or a intermittent short caused by the wire moving about and touching metal as the body leaned left or right do ??

[VeryTangled]

Originally Posted by TomT/Williamsburg

BTW - my oil pressure gauge is under my dash, is mechanical, and has a rather long run to the block using a braided steel line.

From post #1, Sorry Bill about the electrics on the gauge, good thought.

Still could be something wonky with the gauge (or even the long braided steel line), but he hears something different at the same time the gauge goes low.

[big job]

any one mention a broken pressure relief valve spring?. or being sticky- that would
by pass a lot of oil....

[Ross F-1]

Originally Posted by big job

any one mention a broken pressure relief valve spring?. or being sticky- that would
by pass a lot of oil....

Not mentioned, not sure how it would be affected by turns or coming to a stop.

[big job]

Originally Posted by Ross F-1

Not mentioned, not sure how it would be affected by turns or coming to a stop.

whoops I forgot about the turning part so then the pump is cavitating; right
so i'd start with the pick up tube (too high/cracked or something) OR get
this; back when my father in law bought a used country squire LTD
with the common 302 OD. OK so he comes to our shop no way its cooked.
oil light on I put mechanical gauge a fat -0- dip stick says full. Then after
some serious thought; I said whoa, I checked the oil stick on the front (near
the alternator) This is not where the stick is suppose to be. Should be near
the master cylinder cause this has the double pan=the sump is the rear and
the front sump holds a quart- S0 somebody put an earlier 302 in there.
It ran out of oil early 302 dip stick in the timing cover/ later to present
left rear. I'm just sayin

sam

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Originally Posted by BILL WZOREK

Tom
Oil gauge Mechanical or Electrical ?
If Electrical what would a loose wire connection or a intermittent short caused by the wire moving about and touching metal as the body leaned left or right do ??

Mechanical gauge .... been there and done that mistake on a 454 I built years ago! Thanks, Bill...

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Originally Posted by BILL WZOREK

Tom I know you have always run 4 Qt's of oil but just for S???? & Giggles why don't you try 1 extra Qt to see if any thing improves.
Also did you measure to see if you got 4 QT'S OUT ?
Ok here is another thought every thing was cool before you got rear ended.
Is it at all possible that when every thing got pushed forward that there was enough stress put on the Crank & Block that it caused a crack some where in the oil passages that is now starting to raze it's ugly head ?
New parts causing different harmonic vibrations causing the crack to open.
I hope you can tell me I am all wrong.
I'm very interested in what it is that you find.

Sorry I have not - got folks in from out of town, everyone has been sick and now I am getting it.

As for oil pump damage from the hit - I drove this car home from Massachusetts to Williamsburg after the accident with no oil pressure issues. However, could the pump be losing prime?

Well, I will strain the oil and see what I might find for any metal. For S and Gs I will refill with fresh oil and try some additional oil - probably 1/2 Qt to start with and see what happens. Then I will go from there ....

Thanks Gents - I APPRECIATE YOUR HELP!

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Originally Posted by BILL WZOREK

Tom I know you have always run 4 Qt's of oil but just for S???? & Giggles why don't you try 1 extra Qt to see if any thing improves.
Also did you measure to see if you got 4 QT'S OUT ?
Ok here is another thought every thing was cool before you got rear ended.
Is it at all possible that when every thing got pushed forward that there was enough stress put on the Crank & Block that it caused a crack some where in the oil passages that is now starting to raze it's ugly head ?
New parts causing different harmonic vibrations causing the crack to open.
I hope you can tell me I am all wrong.
I'm very interested in what it is that you find.

Sorry I have not - got folks in from out of town, everyone has been sick and now I am getting it.

As for oil pump damage from the hit - I drove this car home from Massachusetts to Williamsburg after the accident with no oil pressure issues. Could the pump be losing prime?

Well, I will strain the oil and see what I might find for any metal. For S and Gs I will refill with fresh oil and try some additional oil - probably 1/2 Qt to start with and see what happens, watching the OP gauge. Then I will go from there ....

Thanks Gents - I APPRECIATE YOUR HELP!

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Keepin y'all posted .....

I have filled my car with 4 qts of Rotella 15-40 and 1/2 qt of STP for 4.5 qts total. Remember I do not run a filter. Just ran it around the block 2-3 times before the rains came. Although my oil pressure dropped to 0, to this point, it quickly recovered when given the gas and no engine noise. So, that seems normal to me, especially when you consider the Rotella is a thinner oil than the 20-50 I was running. Checking the dipstick, I am just slightly over the full line.

Looking at the oil I drained I see no indication of any metal pcs but I have to inspect it some more. I also measured the amount of oil I took out and it was at 3.5 qts about - I could swear I put in 4 qts but you never know - I could be wrong.

So far in the short run things seem "more" normal - I will post more when the weather breaks and I get a chance to drive it a medium distance.

[JSeery]

The oil pressure should never drop to zero. Whatever it is at idle is the lowest it should drop. There is a pick-up problem somewhere if this only occurs with stopping or turning. I know you have checked it out, but something is being overlooked somewhere. Good Luck.

Edit: Think about the guys racing these engines on a dirt track, with this type of issue they would never have oil pressure!

[TomT/Williamsburg]

It is not unusual for a warm 59AB engine with a stock oil pump to go to zero oil pressure when coming to a stop and go to idle after a good run. If I am wrong others will chime in but I have had several other engines do the same thing. Never an 8BA engine, or at least an 8BA oil pump engine, however .....

[BILL WZOREK]

Tom
What harm would come on putting 5 Qt's of oil in and run around block , never know stranger things have happen.

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Gotcha Bill - just trying to see where the engine is at in this situation. Taking baby steps sort-to-speak! LOL!

[Ol' Ron]

Our track engine had an extended pan under the starter with the pick up in it. Ran 2 oil filters as well so we had almost 7 qts of oil in the engine

[tubman]

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Ol' Ron,

OK, I'll play. I built a special pan for the 331 hemi in my dirt car. With 2 filters, it took 14 quarts. I used Mobil-1 20-50. An oil and filter change was north of $100!

[JSeery]

Yep, same here. Oversized pans and baffles, but I never considered "0" oil pressure normal.

[Mart]

Baby step another half quart in there, Tom. If you still have oil pressure dropping to zero then there is another problem. Oil pressure should not drop to zero under any circumstances.
Do you have mega powerful brakes?
Does your pan have the crosswise baffle?

Mart.

[trainguy]

Tom,How about the bypass valve under the intake .On my 46 I my oil pressure dropped and was 0 at idle but went to 5 lbs at 30 mph.Suspecting the bypass to be the culprit I disassembled it cleaned it and reassembled.Problem solved!Did,t find anything,must have been stuck open,or something held the ball off the seat.

[chuck stevens]

Tom, I have had an oil pressure problem with the 40 I just finished. It's a 8BA, has good oil pressure when cold but after fully warmed drops to zero at idle. I droped the pan and pulled the pump out to look over the check valve. It all looks fine. It has a NEW Schenider cam, and NEW cam bearings, as well as rods and mains. I'm at a lost!!It will get driven with 20-50 Brad Penn oil in the spring, come h--- or high water. Maybe I could raise the idle to 1200, Chuck S.

PS It has the high volume pump too.

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Hmmmmm - don't know as yet what what my problem is if anything but I did not have this problem before. Can't begin to think why we are not getting oil pressure. I have not had good luck with high volume oil pumps - I just use the stock ones and from what I understand the stock 8BA pump is a higher volume pump than the stock 59AB unit. What I do know is that I did not prime my pump this time around so perhaps it has lost its prime. Regardless, if I can keep 4.5-5 qts of oil in it and the pressure stays up and no other issues, then that is what I will do. I really do not want to pull this engine apart from underneath. I would rather install the hot 59AB flattie I have coming together in it than mess with this one and it has an 8ba oil pump with a modified pan for the pickup.

Let's keep checking in with one another and maybe between the two of us we can figure this out.

[Andy]

My son was loosing oil pressure in his daily. It was the gauge.

[TomT/Williamsburg]

OK - took her out again today after adding another 1/2 quart of oil. She ran well, did not miss a beat but the gauge did register zero oil pressure a couple times. I am now suspecting the gauge. I have another and will swap it out hopefully this weekend.

I hope that is it - if not, I will have to go to Plan B as I will have exhausted all of the "non pan removal" options.

[hotcoupe]

tom and others, i pulled wrenches for four years while in the service and one thing that i learned real quick when trying to trouble shoot a problem - always try the easiest things FIRST! i have a fresh 239 in my truck and i experienced low oil pressure at hot idle. my first thought was the pump, but i decided to pull the intake and block the by-pass valve. BINGO! the engine has 20 lbs. at hot idle now. sure beats laying under the truck pulling the pan, and then trying to get everything sealed back up.
tom

[sidevalve8ba]

Tom,
I hope you get this problem sorted. Let us all know what you find is the problem or what cures it.

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Just an update - changed oil pressure gauges and got more of the same result. Will start removing the intake tomorrow ......

[Willit Stop]

I had a similar problem because someone in the past assembled the oil pump wrong.At higher RPM's or driving up a hill,the pressure would drop.You might try parking the car on a steep uphill,check the gauge,then turn it around to a steep downhill and check it again.If there is a change in pressure,your pump is drawing more air than oil when the oil is mostly in the front of the pan and there is a leak on or around the pump. Hope this helps.Good luck.

[TomT/Williamsburg]

OK - finally got warm enough to remove the intake and see what's up. I can see nothing really bad in the lifter valley. Everything looks normal. I removed the baffles for the return holes and they had some residue on them. I cleaned them up, cleaned around the return holes as best I can as well. I did notice that the baffles have an "F" on them. I am assuming that means front and both baffles had the "F" on the back side. They are now installed with the "F" towards the front. I do not know if that could make a difference as they look the same either way?

I have removed the relief valve and the ball at the end seems to have a flat spot in it. I do not know if that is normal? There was also some oil residue where the ball seats. I've cleaned that up and I will check my other engine to see if that ball has the same flat spot.

I will post some pics as soon as I can ....

[hotcoupe]

All relief valves that i have come across had the flat spot that you referenced.
tom

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Thanks Hotcoupe - I did pop the one out from another engine and it had the flat spot as well.

BUT - what I did find when I removed the other valve and spring is that it is much heavier and longer than what I had in my car. The pic has the one that was on my car with the oil pressure problems on the left, the one I took out of my "hot rod" engine on the right. The spring on the right is both physically longer and a heavier spring but it did have an 8BA oil pump installed which is of a higher volume that the 59 engines.

Were there different springs for the higher volume oil pump in the 59ABs? 8BAs do not have this setup, correct?

To me, the lighter the spring the faster/easier the ball can be moved off its seat, lowering the oil pressure. Maybe I should be using the heavier spring?

[19Fordy]

I think the Mercs have a larger oil pan.

[trainguy]

Tom,use the heavier spring,look down the hole where the spring-plunger assy goes and check the seat for damage or anything to keep the valve from closing or seating properly.Phil

[TomT/Williamsburg]

You betcha trainguy - I'm already on it! I think this is where my problem is and I'm pretty confident this will cure it!

[JSeery]

Looks like your finely finding some issues that may be contributing to the low oil pressure problem. Progress!!!

[trainguy]

Glad you are seeing light at the end of the tunnel.Hopeing that it is not a oncoming locomotive!LOL From your previous postsI believe you are on the right path.Good luck. Phil

[Binx]

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Tom, are you using an 8BA oil pump in a 59A? If so, what pickup?

Lonnie

[TomT/Williamsburg]

More research has turned up two different spring rates for the relief valve - there's a 50 lb and an 80 lb with this one for the 90 and 100 hp engines I am thinking. I do not know if the two springs I have are these two different springs but I will continue to digging up information.

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Originally Posted by Binx

Tom, are you using an 8BA oil pump in a 59A? If so, what pickup?

Lonnie

A 59A pump with a stock pickup, Lonnie ....

[TomT/Williamsburg]

I installed the heavier relief spring, put it back together, and tested the car out. I had 80 lbs of pressure at startup, great pressure at all speeds, even idle, but when warmed up sufficiently she did the same thing: dropped to zero oil pressure on short stops and sharp left and right turns. Back to the drawing board …

I spoke with 41ford1 and johnrodz here on the ‘Barn and both agreed it had to be the pump. But, removing the oil pan on my back on the floor of my unheated garage 2 weeks before I’m scheduled for hip replacement surgery was not a pleasant thought. John however, came to my rescue and offered his lift for me to use as he only lives 30 minutes from me. Got the car there, removed the pan amazingly perfectly with all gaskets still in tack as well as the 1-piece front seal! The pump looked great but we removed the screen and the lower gearanyway, cleaned them up, and reinstalled them. There is nothing wrong with the pump ….

But what John noticed and I had totally overlooked because the pan had been that way since I installed it before Bonneville and drove all over the place with the car is that at some point the pan baffle had been cut with a piece removed for an 8BA pump. A hard stop or hard turns would slosh the oil out of the way of the pickup screen causing loss of pressure. So, we are going to reinstall the baffle and see what happens …..



Will keep you posted ....

[Talkwrench]

Been following with interest..

[BILL WZOREK]

Originally Posted by TomT/Williamsburg

I installed the heavier relief spring, put it back together, and tested the car out. I had 80 lbs of pressure at startup, great pressure at all speeds, even idle, but when warmed up sufficiently she did the same thing: dropped to zero oil pressure on short stops and sharp left and right turns. Back to the drawing board …

I spoke with 41ford1 and johnrodz here on the ‘Barn and both agreed it had to be the pump. But, removing the oil pan on my back on the floor of my unheated garage 2 weeks before I’m scheduled for hip replacement surgery was not a pleasant thought. John however, came to my rescue and offered his lift for me to use as he only lives 30 minutes from me. Got the car there, removed the pan amazingly perfectly with all gaskets still in tack as well as the 1-piece front seal! The pump looked great but we removed the screen and the lower gearanyway, cleaned them up, and reinstalled them. There is nothing wrong with the pump ….

But what John noticed and I had totally overlooked because the pan had been that way since I installed it before Bonneville and drove all over the place with the car is that at some point the pan baffle had been cut with a piece removed for an 8BA pump. A hard stop or hard turns would slosh the oil out of the way of the pickup screen causing loss of pressure. So, we are going to reinstall the baffle and see what happens …..



Will keep you posted ....

Great to have friends like that !!!!

[sidevalve8ba]

I could not agree more. It is great to have a friend like John. I sure hope this cures your problem, Tom.

[BILL WZOREK]

Tom:
Has that pan been off since the engine was 1st put in the car?
Did the low oil pressure show up on your return trip from Springfield or after the car was repaired ?
That baffle was not there before so if the pressure was ok before we have to be overlooking something about the accident >>>>

[41ford1]

Originally Posted by TomT/Williamsburg

But what John noticed and I had totally overlooked because the pan had been that way since I installed it before Bonneville and drove all over the place with the car is that at some point the pan baffle had been cut with a piece removed for an 8BA pump. A hard stop or hard turns would slosh the oil out of the way of the pickup screen causing loss of pressure. So, we are going to reinstall the baffle and see what happens …..

Will keep you posted ....

It's funny that phenomena didn't show its ugly face on the trip to Bonneville and back. Mostly straight and level on that trip except the twisty road going in to Orem. Nothing noted then. You were too busy driving while I was too busy hanging on. The baffle was definately put there for a purpose. To keep the oil in the deep part of the sump.

Hopefully you found and cured the problem.
Yes, please keep us posted.

[trainguy]

Some where on the barn I remember reading of a method of bench testing the oil pump I believe it was by GM using an electricdrill and a mechanical pressure gage,but that would not factor in oil temp.Just a thought.Phil

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by trainguy

Some where on the barn I remember reading of a method of bench testing the oil pump I believe it was by GM using an electricdrill and a mechanical pressure gage,but that would not factor in oil temp.Just a thought.Phil

Don't think he has an oil pump issue as he is getting high oil pressures (#69 above says 80 psi), it is a pickup problem. The pickup is getting uncovered during hard stops or turns.

[trainguy]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Don't think he has an oil pump issue as he is getting high oil pressures (#69 above says 80 psi), it is a pickup problem. The pickup is getting uncovered during hard stops or turns.

Rereading the posts he mentions low press at idle when warm wich can be normal flathead.I agree that the hard stop and cornering would indicate a pick up or baffle problem.Phil

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Well, the baffle repair/replace did not work. We added 4 qts first and measured on the dipstick, then 5 qts, then 6 qts. Oil pressure still went to zero on hard stops and turns left or right on 5 or 6 qts. With 6 qts and the gauge reading zero we got the engine up to 2000 rpm with no adverse affects, noise, etc. There was some noise at 5 qts. at the stlightest increase of rpm from 700 rpm at idle. So, we still have oil when the gauge reads zero. So, we then changed the oil pressure gauge and the feed line to the gauge - no difference.

We are going to remove the oil pan again tomorrow but this time remove the pump and check the pickup area/parts very carefully for cracks etc - we will change the oil pump while we are at it just for "sh=== and giggles" and see what happens.

To be truthful I am thinking of running 6 qts of oil and be done with it if tomorrow does not resolve the problem. The engine seems happy with 6 qts and zero gauge read oil pressure - no knocks, no noise, and she is running like a swiss watch. Nuttiest problem we've ever come across, especially John, as he has built many more flathead motors than I ....

Will keep you posted .....

[JSeery]

This is turning into a real adventure!!! Good Luck with the next stage.

[trainguy]

These problems will drive a person to drink.Do you have another oil pump?If so why not try it.Over filling is just a bandade,not to be a wise ass but these flatheads are not rocket science.Your problem has a simple solution all you have to do is find it.You have eliminated the bypass valve,the pick-up,baffle,oil level.Whats left?The oil pump.why the pressure drops on hard turns and braking,who knows,but pressure dropping when warm is symptomatic of excessive clearance in the pump,bearings or both.The fact that you build oil pressure when cold pretty well eliminates the by pass valve.Normally bearing wear doesnt happen suddenly same with a oil pump.With the many times you have removed and inatalled you pan maybe you should consider a zipper or velcro. Phil

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Thanks, Phil - I like the zipper idea - LOL! No - another pump will be installed this time around ...

[41ford1]

Originally Posted by trainguy

These problems will drive a person to drink.Do you have another oil pump?If so why not try it.Over filling is just a bandade,not to be a wise ass but these flatheads are not rocket science.Your problem has a simple solution all you have to do is find it.You have eliminated the bypass valve,the pick-up,baffle,oil level.Whats left?The oil pump.why the pressure drops on hard turns and braking,who knows,but pressure dropping when warm is symptomatic of excessive clearance in the pump,bearings or both.The fact that you build oil pressure when cold pretty well eliminates the by pass valve.Normally bearing wear doesnt happen suddenly same with a oil pump.With the many times you have removed and inatalled you pan maybe you should consider a zipper or velcro. Phil

I know first hand. Velcro (registerd TM) won't work in this application . Maybe you aught to install the pan with 1/4 turn fasteners.
Your best shot is to change the pump. I figured you had it nailed down with the baffle find. Now I'm baffled! If the pump change doesn't cure the problem the next thing is the pump drive system. Thats the 3 gears at the rear of the cam. I can visualize an issue with quick stops but not turns.

[cmbrucew]

Could something be blocking the return passages?
Next time pan is off, weld/solder elbows 1" and 5" up on the sump. Clear tubing in between. You can see the oil level available for the pump.
Afterward solder/weld patches over the holes.
Bruce

[BILL WZOREK]

Tom:
I know we are all shooting in the dark here, but what about the oil line, could it be getting pinched upon hard stops or sudden turns.
How about running a 2nd gauge maybe a electric one & watch both to see if you get the same reading on both.

Let us know what you do & what you find.

[chuck stevens]

Tom,
I have the same exact problem on the 40 I just finshed. Good oil pressure when cold- 55+, running down the road it is fine but, zero at an idle when warm. No bad noises, I have pulled the pan, and checked the pump out, looks fine. At the moonshine fest I talked to a guy who suggested under sized cam journals, my cam is a new Schneider, running on new bearings. I have two oil pressure gauges, both read the same. The engine is a 8BA with 2000 miles on a fresh rebuild. Tried extra oil, blocking the oil filter, running 20-50 Rotella, and still nothing at idle. I will pick up this challenge after my winter hiatus. Good thing I have other rides, Chuck S.

[George/Maine]

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It almost seems like to little pressure at idle and loosing what the pump is putting out.
My guess your crankshaft is worn loose bearing, rods worn and losing pressure.
Back in the day would drive with the light on and had no problems.
I don't even have and oil pressure gauge on my 8ba or a filter

[VeryTangled]

Hi Tom, We're really pulling for you on this one.

To lighten things up (but hopefully not get this thread off topic)...

I'll never forget the smile on your face when you drove up in this:

[trainguy]

Originally Posted by VeryTangled

Hi Tom, We're really pulling for you on this one.

To lighten things up (but hopefully not get this thread off topic)...

I'll never forget the smile on your face when you drove up in this:

Hey,I've seen that car somewhere!Phil

[chuck stevens]

That is one sweet running flathead, I'm still smiling! Hope to see you guys in a couple of weeks, Chuck S.

Originally Posted by VeryTangled

Hi Tom, We're really pulling for you on this one.

To lighten things up (but hopefully not get this thread off topic)...

I'll never forget the smile on your face when you drove up in this:

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Man - you guys really to know how to kick a guy when he's down, huh? Thanks Jeff! LOL - yep I would have driven that car home in a heartbeat! What a fun little ride .... I might have stolen it but there were too many witnesses!!!! LOL ... a great little ride, Phil

OK - so the saga continues. We "unzipped" the pan to remove the oil pump and install another when we noticed the pickup canister (which is connected directly to this oil pump) had no gasket where bolted to the pump. Taking it apart it appeared this is where we were sucking air and the mount surfaces were not flat. So, we flattened out the pump and pickup canister mount surfaces, I found a gasket in my box of gasket goodies, we opened up the pump and inspected everything, packed it, and reinstalled it figuring we got the problem licked. But no - she did the same thing again ....

Now get this - when the oil pressure drops to zero we bled the gauge line, raised the rear of the car to an upgodly height, depressed the clutch figuring the crank main bearing end play may be loose, and nothing changed it and it stayed at zero for over 20 seconds. So we got the engine to drop to zero pressure again and raised the idle speed to 2000 rpm during the entire time it was at zero oil pressure - almost 30 seconds - and the engine ran like a swiss watch - no knocks, noises or anything bad !!!

I spoke with Chuck, 41ford1 and we'll check the gear that's in the block tomorrow as we install an 8BA pump that I have. If it has movement it could be coming away from the pump gear giving us the zero oil pressure reading. John and I do not think changing oil pumps will change anything but we have to try it.

I will keep you posted ....

[Cecil/WV]

With the pan off, you can put a pressurized canister on the back of the block and look for excess leakage from the bearings.

[john mullen]

just to add in hear some info. engine running at operating temp at idle carry's 18-20 lbs pressure, At 55 mph and 2000 rpm the oil pressure is around 55- 60 psi. it only looses pressure when you stop for a light and or turning a corner at slow speed. after 15 to 30 seconds the oil pressure returns to 18-20 psi and as long as you do not move the car it stays there. as Tom stated we jacked the car up as high as possible from the rear and nothing happened. he backed it up the hill at my garage and let it cost down and applied the break with moderate to light pressure and it did not fall below the 18-20 pressure. backed it back up the hill and let it cost down again and applied the brake with panic like force and boom, oil pressure 0 for 15 to 30 seconds.
the pump we took out today was inspected with a fine tooth comb and found it impeccably perfect in every way. the bushings were tight the gears were meshed nice and snug. the clearance between the gears and the bottom cover is well within specs.
Anyway I just wanted to add my 2 cents hear as I do not believe it has any thing to do with the pump. Just my 2 cents we will replace the pump tomorrow and see what happens. I am baffled for sure as well as TomT

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Hey, Bill - we ran another gauge - #3 - and a new line to that gauge. Same result with all 3 gauges and supply lines ...

[BILL WZOREK]

Boy ~~ I wish you gave us something Hard to figure out >>>

[Cecil/WV]

What if you added more oil, temporarily, to see if that would make a difference??

[chuck stevens]

Tom, If you are going to pull the pan again, I agree with Cecil- put a pre-luber on the main oil gallery, with the pan off, you'll see where the oil is going. Some other ideas... the pressed in oil tube that runs down the valley may be leaking, maybe a small casting flaw in the pump itself. At any rate putting oil to it with the pan off is the way to go. I'm very interested as I have a similar problem, Chuck S.

PS I have a homemade pre-luber you're welcome to borrow.

[john mullen]

Cecil/WV.. We have had as much as 6 quarts in the oil pan with no help. The pressure lube idea is great however the thing is it doesn't lose the pressure until you break hard or turn. Otherwise the oil pressure is perfect. I have been building Flatheads for a long time and never have I come across this bizarre problem. keep those ideas coming guy's we need help for sure....

[Willit Stop]

I had the same problem/symptoms with my '36 21 stud,as I stated before.Our pumps may be completely different...I don't know.Anyway,my pump has a teapot looking spout for the pick up and the other end is soldered to a tin cup that surrounds the gears.Inside the cup is a steel plate that is between the gears and tin cup bottom.With the plate in the cup,there was a gap of about 1/8 inch between the top of the cup and pump.In other words,no seal.My problem could've been solved by moving the plate to the outside bottom of the cup but the gears would then ride on the tin cup.The solution was to install a big fat o-ring where the cup meets the pump.If you have the same type pump with a space between the two you will loose pressure at times.In this situation,your pump will produce pressure but will draw air if the flow of oil through the tube can't keep up with the pump. Hoping this helps John.

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Well, we resolved it. I changed the oil pan to one with no baffle for an 8AB pump which had been in another engine and was known good. I am running 5 qts of oil, 20-50, 80 lb relief valve in the engine along with the relief valve that is in the oil pump. I am now running 20-30 lbs of oil pressure at idle, 40-45 around town, 50-55 lbs at speeds of 70-75. No loss of oil pressure on a hard stop or hard l/r turn. In checking crank clearances and anything else we could reach with the pan off there was one rod cap that was on backwards - I never knew one side was different from the other - and had been this way since I put the engine in the car before Bonneville. The bearing had no signs of abnormal wear so that was good.

We have not yet done an autopsy on the pump we removed - all I can think of is that the accident last year somehow damaged the pump that only manifested itself on hard turns and short stops. I was standing still when I was rear ended, my car was picked up, the other car going underneath me, the rear end was shoved forward messing up the tranny and the hit actually broke my motor mounts pushing me forward 20 feet. So it is entirely possible something happened to the pump at that time.

I will keep you posted on what we find out but that's the story for now. It was a tuff haul but John was really great helping me get this thing resolved. Thank you, John!

Thanks for all the help and support guys - it's good to have friends like y'all -

Now, on to my 40 Ford starting issues but I'm taking the rest of the day off!!!!

[Mart]

Thank God you have it fixed! now I can sleep nights!

Mart.

[cmbrucew]

Good to hear you found the problem.
Bruce

[JSeery]

Was the whole rod turned or just the cap on the rod? Main caps and rod caps are bored and honed in position (at torque value) and must be maintained in the orientation. So, it's hard to turn just a cap and get it to fit!

Oh, and great job of the fix!!!!! That is persistence.

[trainguy]

Congrats,you really hung in there and got the problem resolved.You get an A for persistence
Phil

[BILL WZOREK]

Tom:
That's great news / It must make you happy that you did not ignore it and keep driving it. That end would not have turned out as well >>>

[41ford1]

Good you found and fixed it. Now I can get some sleep before the Bash.

[TomT/Williamsburg]

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Wow - all of you guys losing sleep over my problem - I am touched! As for the rod cap the rod was in correctly, just the cap was reversed. Chuck (41Ford1) - I was just angling to see if I could get you to stop by on the way to the Bash - - and I do thank you for listening and speaking to me about the problem. We conversed about it several times and Chuck actually called me today to see how we were doing. All I know is I got home just before the rain and snow hit us here (open engine compartment presently - no hood - not good!) and once I was in the door all the adrenalin left me and I was (and still am) pooped! Both John and I slept little last night but it was nice to know we were all having similar flathead nightmares!

Thanks again everyone - I really appreciate it. All of your suggestions we checked/tried - we are now experts at dropping the pan of my roadster. I think we cut a lot of time off the process with all the practice we had!

[VeryTangled]

Originally Posted by Mart

Thank God you have it fixed! now I can sleep nights!

Mart.

Hi Everyone: Tom it's gone viral, you're worldwide!