Barrett-Jackson

[goodcar]

For the time being at least, this is still free capitalist country. If somebody wants to pay a mint or steal a car from an unwary seller, that's the way it is. As always, supply and demand over the long haul will determine values. That doesn't mean a Model A is exactly like buying gold or a commodity because there are too many variables such as condition, rarity, geographical price trends and demographic preferences. Antic shops in my area are loaded with glassware, china, furniture and other items priced at a fraction of what this stuff would have sold for 15 years ago. Will these prices ever go up?? Who knows?? If you like something, buy it. If it's overpriced, keep looking. This is America.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

To be fair to the original authors, that quote is from an article intended to help those who want to restore a car to the original factory spec. And the point they make is valid – a full restoration is expensive, so you need to think about how much you're budgeting for the car versus for the restoration work.

I have Restorer in digital searchable format from '56-'06, and when I ran the search for "invest/investment," 95% of the uses of that term are from the classified ads – owners talking up how much they spent on the car they're selling. But I also didn't find any articles specifically disabusing anyone of the notion that resale value should be a priority when making restoration decisions. If there's a duty incumbent on MAFCA to suppress substandard maintenance/restoration practices, it doesn't come through in the magazines.

See, even that part really does not make sense to me. In that era, restoration shops were very, very few. Even the most notable shops such as Harrahs, Horseless Carriage Shoppe, Coleman & Oquin, et/al came in the early to mid 1960s, ...which is about 5 years after that article was written.

With the above said, there were many original Model-As that were nice used cars that were very capable of participating in Model-A club events were everywhere. THAT is what I suspect the authors were trying to suggest. As a very young kid in the mid to late 60s, I always remember the men at the club meetings telling what they had accomplished on their restorations during the past month. I would venture a guess that less than 1% of the members in the Model-A hobby was having their car professionally restored. They purchased parts, but those were not that expensive and the labor was free. Also, there was a pride level that we have discussed here before that Model-A club members took pride in showing-off a Model-A that they did all of the restoration work themselves. There were many hobbyist that I remember that restored a car and then sold it to finance the next one which would have better sheetmetal and NOS parts, and a more-experienced restorer doing the project. So I say all of that to say, I'm not sure hobbyists were that upside down like the author was insinuating.

One other thing Colin, IMO it is not the club per se' that is advocating or disabusing, it is the club members and social media participants that are touting that.

Originally Posted by Ernie Vitucci

Good afternoon...I never understood purchasing a car at an auction...unless after the end of the aution when the car you are interested in did not sell for the price offered. Sometimes, then you can submit a lower bid AFTER you have driven the car and had it inspected by a good mechanic! I just do not see how you can be sure of a cars condition just looking at it sitting in a parking lot...Ernie in Arizona

Ernie, there is an extreme difference between the level of car at Barrett vs. a restoration showing up at a farm sale. Behind the scenes at the upscale auctions, there are people (-much like myself and yourself) who are versed on what to look for that are generally hired ahead of time and brought to the sale to be the 'eyes & ears' for their client, -or there are companies that offer such services to clients on-site. Often times, serious Sellers have already had an evaluation performed by a shop prior to the vehicle being entered in the sale. Granted these inspectors can miss things, but this is much akin to buying title insurance for a home purchase or having a home inspection done prior to the sale closing. Most of these buyers of hi-level cars are savvy enough that if something doesn't look right, or feel right about the vehicle, then they will walk away. In these high-end auction sales events, there is WAY more behind the scenes such as this that goes on that the 'media viewer' never sees.

[alexiskai]

The below is from a Forbes article about stamp collecting, but I think it's broadly relevant to Model A collecting.

The biggest obstacle to pricing is that there is no way of knowing how many of any given item are available or in demand. This is because most buyers are ambivalent toward what they want on any given day. They will go online to see what is being offered for a multiple of items. They will choose to buy specific items because they look cheap or have been on their want list for the longest or meet criteria of quality, dealer or source.

What made pricing so uncertain is that the price or a price change for a stamp has no effect on supply. This is because supply is mainly a function of collector death... In years past, price discovery had numerous stamp shows [think swap meets] throughout the year where dealers would congregate to exchange experiences and opinions and be influenced by customer buying and questions... Stamp shows are on the decline and smaller than before. While the huge sales sites like eBay would appear to serve as a more reliable pricing source, it is a mixed blessing. The offerings there are from a mixture of dealers, collectors selling off their collections, scam artists and rank amateurs who often don’t know the value of what they have.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by ronn

so Brent, you are fine with the 20% auctioneers fee? the credit card fee of 4% the whatsup fee of on and on oh, and dont forget your state sales tax.

in the end you are easily paying 2x as much as it can be bought privately.

think on this for a second- ferrarris sometimes sell in the 30-50 million range. it is all done privately without anyone knowing the agreement.
yes there are some smart rich people too! LOL

Ronn, I am fine with an Auctioneer's service fee, the credit card convenience fee, and the "on and on" that you mentioned. If I am ok with it and you are not, shouldn't that still be acceptable for the both of us? I definitely do not feel like we are entitled to give our unsolicited opinion in a public setting on the value of someone else's property.

As far as paying 2X as much, that mindset can be used in many other things that many of us have no problem overlooking. So why is this an issue now?? If I purchase a brand new automobile, it will likely lose 25% of the resale value within the first 30 days of ownership. Why should you care if I do that all-knowing the financial hit I will be taking? The same applies to what I can cook and eat a breakfast meal for at my house vs. eating the same meal at a restaurant where I go to eat for the convenience. Yes, while paying $20 for a breakfast meal at a restaurant may seem absurd when I can stay at home and eat for $5, why should it be anyone else's concern other than mine?

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

I tend to agree. I have run into way too many people , while talking about old cars, that start out with 'I saw one like it sell at ( B-J, Mecum, whatever fill in the blank) and IT sold for ------'

All those TV auctions are, is people laundering drug money and trying to impress their friends at home.

Someone told me that Mecum sold a half ton '72 Chevy pickup a few weeks ago for $129,000. Get real. If the Blessed Virgin Mary herself drove that thing it STILL wouldn't be worth a fraction of that price. That is nothing but stupid money on display. It is not reality.

That and that stupid 'American Pickers' nonsense. Talk about a staged fraud That show ruined the petroliana collectibles hobby quite some time ago. Those clowns are a farce. Laughable. Only good thing is, they know so little about antique cars they always get their butts burned trying to deal with them

I stopped watching all of that a long time ago..

Jeff, many people have learned that 'reality TV' is not really 'reality'. Also, what does it matter if someone claims they saw something sell on TV for for ----? While people often make claims about it driving the prices up, it rarely does because people will only spend what they perceive somethings value is to them.

With regard to your comment on whether a '72 Chevrolet pick-up is worth $129k or not, ...while it may not be to you, take a moment to think about it in this light. It is very easy for a restoration shop (-any pro builder) to have over 1,200+ hours in a nice frame-up build. Paint & materials have escalated where top quality paint work on a vehicle is easily between $30k - $40k in costs. Nice interiors cost north of $10k, and I could go on. All $$ totalled, an owner of 1972 Chevy pickup can (-and will) easily spend $125k+ for one of the top-tier builds these days ...not counting the truck's purchase price. Then add in 12-18 months of wait time as the project is being completed. So when a fresh, state of the art build comes available for a few dollars less than what it would cost to have that same build duplicated, ...PLUS the Buyer does not need to wait the 12 - 18 months required for his to be completed, -then to him, spending $129k for his dream truck is a value if the truck is what he wants.

And, FWIW, generally speaking the stakes are too high for high-end auction companies to use shill bidding, so logic tells us that it took a minimum of two wannabe Buyers to get to that price. So at that moment when the gavel fell, $129k was the value of that truck. Therefore, contrary to what you may believe, that sales price is reality!! Again, I realize it is not a value to you, but to someone else it was. Let's all step back and not be hypocritical because some people may not view old rusty signs or oil cans worth anywhere near what you are willing to spend on them. Afterall, why have an old junky sign or an old oil can around collecting dust when it is not even something you can drive or go have fun with your family in.

[ronn]

Ronn, I am fine with an Auctioneer's service fee, the credit card convenience fee, and the "on and on" that you mentioned. If I am ok with it and you are not, shouldn't that still be acceptable for the both of us? I definitely do not feel like we are entitled to give our unsolicited opinion in a public setting on the value of someone else's property.




couldnt agree with you more Brent........


just my opinion that Im allowed to express, whether others agree with me doesnt matter. as mentioned up top- for now it is allowed in America.


we all see "logic" a little differently. I appreciate your input on all matters of these threads.

[Oldbluoval]

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Fair value is when a willing buyer and willing seller agree and transact. ….all costs included!
Getting priced out of a market leaves one cold and “cheated”.
I guess it sorta goes to The Golden Rule….they who have the gold, rule! Well, one version!

[TerryO]

-- "The Restorer," July 1957

The idea that the Model A is the poor/frugal man's collector car has been baked into the hobby from the day it became an organized subculture

I have to agree with this idea, just restore a Shelby to factory concours condition and I believe you would agree also...


TOB

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Oldbluoval

I guess it sorta goes to The Golden Rule….they who have the gold, rule! Well, one version!

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[Terry, NJ]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

You guys kill me. How do you suppose these "rich guys" got their money? Do you really think it is because they foolishly spend/spent their money overpaying for things??

IMHO, the worst thing that ever happened to our hobby is cheapskate Model-A owners who like to 'armchair appraise' the value of other people's cars. And, those 'appraisers' who make those appraisals and evaluations strictly based on what they see in internet pictures or on TV keep the prices bad for everyone including those who have a nice car. IMO, all that appraising does is lower the perceived value of the Model-A as a whole where the mindset is someone can't spend any money on it because they won't get their money back out of it.

From my perspective of being in this hobby for over 50+ years, hobbyist's Model-As as a whole appear to be in worse mechanical and aesthetical condition now than they were 3-4 decades ago, ...yet the knowledge about them, and availability of parts is arguably the best it has ever been for our hobby. Again, very few people want to repair one properly, -or even restore a Model-A these days because other hobbyists (-many are Model-A Club members??!!) give advice not to restore them because it is a bad investment, ...and instead their advice is just buy someone else's car with the subliminal mindset to then drive them into the ground with poor maintenance or lack thereof. Just MacGyver them the best you can, and then just call it a 'driver' or 'survivor car'.

If a Model-A is 'over-priced' on Craigslist, Facebook Marketplace, -or other social media places, then most of us would agree that it will not sell. If it does not sell, then what is the harm -however, if it did sell, ...but at a price higher than what you felt it was worth, who was wrong? Was it the Buyer that paid more than you felt it was worth, ...or were you wrong in your under-evaluation the vehicle's market value?? Just like the successful Buyers at Barrett, they all paid what it was worth to them. Maybe not what you felt it should be worth, but to the ones that mattered, they paid what that vehicle was worth at that moment. At that point, who are we to criticize?

Very Nicely put! Speaking of what is a car worth; how's about a car (Town Sedan) with a new $5000 + engine, plus a two tone paint job, and 98% new wood, too many new parts to go over here. Not being worth $ 9750. What the hell is it worth? $6000 ? $ 4Gs? $2GS ???? Not a dime for my labor! Complete chassises bring $ 4-5 Gs without a body and an old engine! Since no one's actually come to look at it, I guess I'll go on flogging it till someone recognizes the value and buys it.
Terry