Hydraulic brakes questions - super hard pedal

[billybronco1]

Found pieces of metal in left rear wheel bearing. Not sure what it is as it does not seem to be the bearing. I noticed a washer or spacer on the right side behind the hub - but its missing on left. The metal could be the chewed up washer.

How do you remover the grease seal - is it re-usable, I removed the keeper ring ?? I'm told the brake parts are from a 46-48 Ford - thanks

[Kirby1374]

I just used a seal remover, the type from the parts store that sort of cuts in as you are trying to pry it out and I put in new seals. I think new seals are a good idea whether the old ones get destroyed coming out (like mine) or not.

[rally 1]

Just went through a changeover in my '31 Tudor. Used the 48 Lincoln setup sold by Macs. Wilwood 1" dual master.
Experienced the "hard pedal' issue also. Chased it down to pedal ratio.
The info in Les andrews book refers to a 5.4:1 ratio, with a single master cyl.
As I increased the pedal ratio through a substantial amount of fabrication, the pedal effort decreased, and the braking efficiency improved. My actual ratio is now a 7.6:1, required a lever assist device.
PM for additional info.
Ken

[billybronco1]

Ok got the seal out - just pounded out like any seal, yes I need a new one. The bearing looks fine as the inside of the hub surfaces.

Question is - what is this washer/spacer I found on the other side, appears to be brass. Does not look like it belongs there. I'm assuming the metal I found in the drivers side hub was from a washer on this side. You can see the washer on the paper.

Keep in mind the axle nuts where not tight at all and the hubs slid right off easily

[steve s]

Don't know about that washer, but I used to get pieces of metal in my rear bearings when a shim would get chewed up, probably from failing to tighten sufficiently. I remember once when I sheared an axle key, I had to fashion a shim out of a tin can I found by the roadside. By the way, when the axle key sheared, it sounded like the transmission blew up.

Steve

[steve s]

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I wonder if that mystery washer is some sort of spacer to compensate for wrong size bearing. MAC's says bearing should be 1 21/32" long. Are both bearings same size?

[billybronco1]

I do not see any shims - where would they be? I think I will re-assemble without the washers and tighten the nut up real good.

BTW - what is the correct install for axle key - what way does the chamfer go ?

[Charlie Stephens]

If your rear wheels came off easily I would worry about damage to the axle (crack starting to form). If the axle fails the wheel will come off. I would recommend some type of safety hub or safety clip sold by places like Speedway. They are good insurance.

Charlie Stephens

[steve s]

The chamfer goes in first and against the axle.

The shim is a piece of very thin metal that wraps around the entire taper of the axle, except where the key protrudes. Model A houses sell them. You will know whether you need one if when you try to tighten the nut, the edge of the drum binds against the backing plate or the inside of the drum binds against the brake shoes.

I hope you don't need them as they have a tendency to work loose. I have a sinking feeling however that whoever did your brakes may have just run out of gumption when he got all done and discovered the wheels didn't fit, and just left them loose! Not good.

The alternative is to grind the edge off the drum and corresponding lip off the the backing plate, or to grind down the shoes/pads. But, I had my drums and plates "professionally" done and still needed a shim. Most disappointing!

Steve

[Charlie Stephens]

While everything is apart be sure that the previous owner installed adapters for using wire wheels on hydraulic drums. If you don't know what I am talking about go to http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...ns#post8330045

Charlie Stephens

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by billybronco1

I do not see any shims - where would they be? I think I will re-assemble without the washers and tighten the nut up real good.

BTW - what is the correct install for axle key - what way does the chamfer go ?

Hey Billy,
Whew...if you are not confused by now...you may have to 'get your mind right',eh !
First of all you've got the brakes setup used'46 thru '48.
The gasket 'thing' that you found on the 'outside'...under the axle nut IS a gasket to contain grease. You can order them, you can make them out of rubber, gasket material, etc....
The brass looking 'shim' that you found on left rear...is a very poor / dangerous (IMO) attempt to compensate for WORN parts. You can order stainless shims (get several) that will do the compensation safely..but new or newer parts would be the way to do,eh.
You say that you found metal chips in there. Examine everything in detail for damage and replace if ANY found.
DO take out the large rear wheel bearings and make all very clean. Upon replacing, grease bearing (pack) by hand. I would advise against using axle grease zerk, as that's recipe for tooo much lube..which gets into brakes. In fact, IMO, cap this off...as Ford eventually eliminated it.
BtW the axle key... I put mine flat surface down into slot with tapered end facing up and out (made it easier to start drum on,eh!
The fact that you had virtually NO torque on the rear axle nuts...was good for only one thing, the idea of getting the drums off by hand with puller. Depends on how long the car was driven/used , as to possible damage that could have/ may have been caused. EXAMINE EVERYTHING very closely for damage/cracks.
Torque to 200 ft/lbs first time then drive , then torque again, drive some, then torque...you get the idea. Oh, and for sure...NO GREASE on spindle and spindle mating surface!! With all good parts, it is recommended to LAP drums to spindles prior to other assembly and lube/torqueing. Lots more but got to go take care of centigenarios. Merry Christmas to you and good luck

[billybronco1]

Oh no - two different ways on how to insert the axle drive key ?????

[4banger]

Those backing plates are from a 1946 to 1948 ford because they have single shoe adjusters. The Wilwood master cylinder is a 13/16 bore. you should be using a 1" bore to match the original 1946 ford master cylinder.

[charlesea]

Billy, could there be air in the lines causing some of the problems? The 2 pictures look like 39-48 Ford brakes. This is what is on my car when I bought it 3 years ago.

[zzlegend]

Billy maybe this will help on the keyway placement. You have to look close at #4243

http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/F...y_1932to37.jpg

[columbiA]

Ive always installed the key with the chamfer on the axle & facing diff.As for using 29-35 wires on 46-48 drums,Ive used 2 flat washers on each stud & never had a problem with wheels cracking.Sometimes you have to grind or knock off a balance weight on the drum so that wheel will seat properly.

[29closedcab]

Those master cylinders in my opinion need to be mounted side by side using the wilwood bracket and pedal assembly. The assembly has a bar to activate both cylinders as 1. Residual valves and a proportioning valve are a must. To first control bias front to rear but also to prevent air from being sucked in. Maybe bench bleed the cylinder that is giving you issues.

[billybronco1]

Originally Posted by columbiA

Ive always installed the key with the chamfer on the axle & facing diff.As for using 29-35 wires on 46-48 drums,Ive used 2 flat washers on each stud & never had a problem with wheels cracking.Sometimes you have to grind or knock off a balance weight on the drum so that wheel will seat properly.

I like this way of mounting the key - matches opposite chamfer on axle

I have no washers or spacer plates on my hubs for the newer wire wheels - I will check this out - thanks

[billybronco1]

I realized I do not need the hub/wheel spacer because I'm running 16" wheels off a 34 ford. Also the metal in the bearing was the remains of a shim. Now as I lay in bed thinking of what to do next. I need seals and a few front bearings which I will order soon - BUT?

I was thinking about bleeding the brakes - where I have two master cylinders (one for the front - one for the rear) I will have to do a front & rear bleed at the same time as the peddle will not go down if I just do one - sound right? This is going to get interesting. I had a friend look at the wheel cylinders as I pushed on the brake lightly with hubs off - they all move out on one shoe. Are both shoes suppose to move or just one?

[Bob C]

You could disconnect the push rod from one MC and bleed the other one. That system sounds like nothing
but problems, I would go with a single tandem master cylinder.

Bob