Going to look at a rebuilt engine

[Art Newland]

Might possibly buy an engine tomorrow. I'm told new babbit, new pistons/rings. An assembled short block with head installed. Didn't ask about cam/valves. No oilpan so will be able to take a good look inside. I should be able to see crosshatching in the cylinders, shims in main and rod caps, maybe check crank end play? Any suggestions to make sure im not buying a boat anchor?

[RonC]

You have to know your rebuilder. Talk to people who have engines rebuilt by this person. Don't rush into it plenty of rebuilders available

[SeaSlugs]

and recipts - ask to see them. new doesnt always mean brand new - could mean new to him.

Should be obvious what got replaced and what got reworked but sounds like you have a good plan already. Definitely take RonC's advice too!

And of course always ask the question of "Why are you selling it?" Weird to think about but also from a buyers perspective seems weird to have an engine rebuilt only to never run it and sell it again probably at a loss...BUT could be a touchy subject like the guys dad got it rebuilt but passed before he could use it sorta thing...

[tbirdtbird]

Myself, I would not touch it unless the owner let me pull a rod cap and a main cap and look at the babbitt, for whatever that is worth. All this since the pan is off.
I'd like it even better if the head were off.
And yes you should be able to see cross hatching.
Turn the crank to see how much resistance there is.
At least inquire about the cam, lifters, and valves. Side cover is on and can't see
lifters?
Look at cam lobes carefully. Some grinders do not properly re-grind a stock cam and you end up with .011 less lift than you were supposed to have. See Bratton catalogue for better explanation. Cam makes ALL the difference.
Where did pistons come from? There is some real junk out there passing as pistons.
Did the builder take any pix along the way??? Would be nice.
If even one thing ends up not as advertised, walk away

[1955cj5]

I would say look for cracks in the water jacket. Take a bright flashlight...They seem to show up in the bottom area where the water jacket curves to meet the cylinder walls...

[Art Newland]

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Its been a while, but I've rebuilt and hot-rodded a few small block chevys in my day. I even dis-assembled a Model A engine once upon a time. Telling a good babbit job from a poor one... no clue. From what I've read, proper clearances are just the beginning. Proper align boring etc, etc. Did some more checking and the cam and valves are new. The fellow is big into Model T stuff, owns several. Thought he might like an A and has lost interest. He owns a coupe like mine, it has a repaired water jacket, planed to use the engine in it. He is selling the coupe as well. He bought the engine through an estate sale from the widow of a fellow that was in his car club. The engine was assembled by a guy named Dave Johnson, he had an engine shop in Carbanado Wa., but has moved to eastern WA now. The seller is extremely motivated to sell it, lets just say less than a third of the cost to send my engine out to be rebuilt. It's a couple hour drive, so I will go take a look at it. It should be obvious if it looks new inside. What's that about things that are to good to be true?

[Art Newland]

I do see Dave Johnson listed on the parts and services page of MAFCA. FWIW

[H. L. Chauvin]

Suggest or demand a "Money-Back-Guarantee" for at least 30 days.

I bought A Model A block about 55 years ago for $35.00 from what appeared to be an honest individual.

Original pistons, never bored out, good Babbitt, could not "see" any cracks, so I installed it.

Drove 5 miles and back. Oil looked like Café-Au-Lait.

Tried Block Seal several times and it still leaked water from about an 8" long former invisible crack in the upper part of the valve chamber .... leaking Block Seal later made the crack visible.

Guy accused me of cracking the block.

Still have it ..... might try a stitch repair one day.

[Towd56]

My advice is to be careful. I bought a "rebuilt" engine after doing all the checking you mentioned. Long story short and 1500 dollars later - I got the "rebuilt" engine I was looking for. It's tough to measure bore taper, and other critical tolerances without disassembly.

[Larry Jenkins]

Read Snyders catalog about their rebuilt engines. Warranties are nice..

[aonemarine]

sometimes it is worth the gamble..... Its all ways a gamble. You will know once you see the cards if you want to make the bet.
I think I would roll the dice by what you are telling me

[Art Newland]

Originally Posted by aonemarine

sometimes it is worth the gamble..... Its all ways a gamble. You will know once you see the cards if you want to make the bet.
I think I would roll the dice by what you are telling me

Ultimately I will have to trust the guy or not, if it turns out good, it will be a sweet deal! Cross your fingers for me!

[H. L. Chauvin]

When a person will not guarantee a re-built product that he personally re-built and is trying to sell ......... in my opinion, he no doubt has a questionable salesmanship agenda.

There are probably far more well re-built Model A engines with warranties looking for concerned buyers than there are concerned buyers looking for well re-built engines with warranties.

Even after 2,793 or so controversial and different responses to one (1) Model A question, everybody rolls their mental, cerebral dice and does what one wants to do anyway.

Look at the engine, say nothing commendable, look at the seller eye to eye, and do as "you" wish ........ I think you were wise enough to ask and you will have the wisdom to make an analysis of the seller and come up with a correct decision.

[aonemarine]

Originally Posted by Art Newland

Ultimately I will have to trust the guy or not, if it turns out good, it will be a sweet deal! Cross your fingers for me!

Ultimately it is not the seller you are trusting, but your own instincts, knowledge and understanding....If you have any doubt step back and re think things. If you miss a deal or this deal keep in mind there will be others.
someone looking to make a quick buck would not invest alot into the valve train.....

[eagle]

I don't imagine this is really going to be a life or death decision, nor is it your last hard-earned dollar. ANY engine can destruct at ANY time. They are a finely tuned piece of machinery. Look it over, talk to the guy, make the deal and then deal with the consequences. No seller in their right mind is going to guarantee an engine, no matter how confident they are in its condition, unless he has no intention of standing behind his guarantee. A reputable engine BUILDER will, but that is a different story than an owner of an "extra" engine, wanting to sell. As you state, he's asking a third of the price of a new rebuild, if everything looks good, go for it. I have sold a lot of things with engines, and I always tell the buyer up front, "it comes with a taillight guarantee, when I can no longer see the tailights, the guarantee is over". I have seen too many things wrecked by improper use. If everything is as you state, it sounds like a great deal!

[C26Pinelake]

Demand and get at least a 30 day guarantee or walk from the deal! Wayne

[CWPASADENA]

I once bought a rebuilt short block left over from a project that got started but stalled and was parted out. No warranty, I paid my money and took my chances. It turned out to be a great engine.

The only problem I had is that it started to leak out the rear main but later discovered it was the Mitchell Transmission that was leaking and not the engine. I installed the Mitchell seal in the clutch housing and now no more "rear main leak".

You know the builder was in the business and has done other engines. If it looks good inside, I would take a chance.

My thoughts

Chris Wickersham

[Art Newland]

You're correct eagle, I can't imagine a builder going to all the trouble without making darn sure the block was a solid candidate for rebuild. Am I an expert? No, but have some experience. If it will turn over ( I know it will be stiff ) and looks to have been truly rebuilt, then it's coming home with me. My old engine is still doing OK, obviously getting tired, but not burning oil and making any really bad noises, so there is no rush. I'll probably pull the head and get a good look at everything. I might even get a higher compression head for it, if all is well sounds like it would be a good candidate for one. I'll report back with some pictures tonight!

[Dave in MN]

Art,
This past Monday, I installed a replacement engine in a '29 pickup that had a fresh "professionally rebuilt" engine in it when it was dropped at my shop. He brought it to me because he had water in his oil and thought it might be a faulty head gasket. No such luck! The block was cracked at one of the valve guide holes and leaked coolant directly into the valve chamber.

Obviously the builder did not pressure check the block as part of his processes.
JMO: Don't assume it was checked for cracks before rebuilding as this is the third engine I have seen with this problem over the last three years. Yup...three.

I was able to use most of his fresh components in the replacement block but it still cost him a bunch to fix the problem.

I wish you good fortune in your purchase.
Good Day!

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by Art Newland

You're correct eagle, I can't imagine a builder going to all the trouble without making darn sure the block was a solid candidate for rebuild. Am I an expert? No, but have some experience. If it will turn over ( I know it will be stiff ) and looks to have been truly rebuilt, then it's coming home with me. My old engine is still doing OK, obviously getting tired, but not burning oil and making any really bad noises, so there is no rush. I'll probably pull the head and get a good look at everything. I might even get a higher compression head for it, if all is well sounds like it would be a good candidate for one. I'll report back with some pictures tonight!

Sounds like a plan, would be great if you could gather up all the components to run it on a stand first to make sure theres no problems. When the day comes your current engine decides its done you have one ready to go to slip in.

[jeep44]

I recently bought a good spare engine for my Model As- I answered a CL ad for A parts, and this engine was just sitting in a corner of the garage, with all openings plugged and taped over. The seller's dad had owned model As, and this was his spare, that he never got to use, i guess. Hopefully, I'll never have to use it,either!

[aonemarine]

I have an a engine that was given to me tucked away in the back corner of the garage.
"rolls over" is all I know about it. I plan on rebuilding it one day to resell, If it proves to be a good core....When I go to sell it will be on a stand and running.
I think that would be the best way to go about it, but im curious as to what others opinions are on the subject.

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by aonemarine

I have an a engine that was given to me tucked away in the back corner of the garage.
"rolls over" is all I know about it. I plan on rebuilding it one day to resell, If it proves to be a good core....When I go to sell it will be on a stand and running.
I think that would be the best way to go about it, but im curious as to what others opinions are on the subject.

i would be 90% more likely to buy an engine if i can hear it run VS a boat anchor just sitting there.

[Rex_A_Lott]

Take a good look and you can tell if its new parts. If it is , buy it. For the price you're paying, it should be worth it. Good Luck!

[Kurt in NJ]

I could build a engine with every part bad and set it up on a stand running and it would be quiet and smooth--- I have the parts. ---- could I call it rebuilt if I used new paint?

[Art Newland]

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Originally Posted by aonemarine

I have an a engine that was given to me tucked away in the back corner of the garage.
"rolls over" is all I know about it. I plan on rebuilding it one day to resell, If it proves to be a good core....When I go to sell it will be on a stand and running.
I think that would be the best way to go about it, but im curious as to what others opinions are on the subject.

I'm thinking your gonna want more than $1300?

[aonemarine]

Originally Posted by Art Newland

I'm thinking your gonna want more than $1300?

Dont know but i am starting out with $0.00 invested. And no i would not call a paint job, or just a re ring "rebuilt" although others may.... however if the babbit checks out ok i would likely try to reuse.

[goodoldvic]

I dropped my engine off to be rebuilt. I discussed what I was looking for and was told I would get a call in a few days to give me an estimate. The wait was so the block and head could be magnafluxed. Luckily my block was crack free except for the valve chamber cover. Conscientious rebuilder. 1300 bucks sounds to good to be true for a rebuilt short block. Good luck.

[aonemarine]

Whats a good babbit job cost nowadays???

[Art Newland]

Well... it came home with me! Has plenty of shims, crosshatching in the cylinders, turns freely with that scritchy new rings on freshly honed cylinders sound. I know honing doesn't have to mean "bored", only time will tell. It's been in his garage with no oilpan, and not covered very well. Lots of little pieces of crud in there that needs to come out. Probably be best to take it apart and take a good look at every thing and get some expert opinions from the Barn. Painted a goofy color of green. He included the engine stand and adapter, a flywheel and flywheel cover, new water pump, new intake manifold, oil pump and rebuild kit, new gasket set. Even a new pair of wire-tie pliers.

[aonemarine]

Yes probably best to take it apart, clean and inspect. Then you will know exactly what you have Oh and take pictures!!

[Mike V. Florida]

There is no such thing as a 100% guarantee except in death. If it looks good after your inspection (and it seems you know what to look for), go for it and cross your fingers. We have read here about freshly rebuilt engines that have failed soon after rebuilding. Anything can happen and usually does.

[eagle]

Great deal! Now for the fun part... getting to know your new purchase.

[Art Newland]

Originally Posted by aonemarine

Yes probably best to take it apart, clean and inspect. Then you will know exactly what you have Oh and take pictures!!

I'm thinking videos would be more fun.

[aonemarine]

Originally Posted by Art Newland

I'm thinking videos would be more fun.

Oh hell yea!!!

[CWPASADENA]

Congratulations!

I think you did just fine.

Keep us posted.

Chris W.

[H. L. Chauvin]

FWIW: An Overall Perspective:

Taking chances "is" and will always be part of our inherited Frontier Spirit.

Leaving Europe in our forefathers' 1600's through 1800's sail boats with no Life Insurance.

Traveling through the U.S., well armed, with a wife & small children with no Covered Wagon Insurance.

Taking a chance on buying a Model A engine? Nothing but Peanuts !!!

[rocket1]

I bought a rebuilt engine for a fair price of $1,600.00 found a lot of issues that I corrected,still running but wasn't worth the aggravation.I would buy one from a reputable rebuilder,now you will have someone to turn to if there is a problem.

[Art Newland]

What my hope is, is that this engine that I just purchased will go together well and I can put it in my car and use it. But I do plan to have the engine that's in it rebuilt, and I probably will go the reputable Builder route and spend the money. This way hopefully I can keep driving while all that takes place.

[Kahuna]

Art
Now that you have the engine, why not call the rebuilder and chat with him about it?

[Art Newland]

Originally Posted by Kahuna

Art
Now that you have the engine, why not call the rebuilder and chat with him about it?

Good idea.

[Art Newland]

Here come the "I told you so's"

Pulled the head and valve cover off tonight... valves defiantly not new. Matter of fact one is pretty thin and probably should be changed out. The two rear cylinders look to have a couple rust spots, hard to tell how deep. The crank has about .003-.004 end-play.

[Art Newland]

The only markings I could see on the pistons was Made in USA and W625.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by Kurt in NJ

I could build a engine with every part bad and set it up on a stand running and it would be quiet and smooth--- I have the parts. ---- could I call it rebuilt if I used new paint?

That is what I always said Kurt, they will run good wore out.

Herm.

[RonC]

Originally Posted by Art Newland

Here come the "I told you so's"

Pulled the head and valve cover off tonight... valves defiantly not new. Matter of fact one is pretty thin and probably should be changed out. The two rear cylinders look to have a couple rust spots, hard to tell how deep. The crank has about .003-.004 end-play.

I would call the seller and let him know this engine was NOT rebuilt at all. Demand your money back because it fraud! In hind sight you should have removed the head before you bought it.

[H. L. Chauvin]

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Per message #43, my $25.00 Model A that came with (2) extra engines, an extra transmission, (11) spare tires, and a few wheelbarrows full of parts had a "worn" engine.

How worn?

It was 58 years ago, but seems like when I hand cranked it, it would spin just as easily with spark plugs installed ..... or not installed ....... it ran fine and smoked enough to resembled a Mosquito Control Vehicle ..... but it beat walking and riding a bicycle ..... and all my "vehicle-less" teenage friends back then begged me for a ride in it on our rural gravel roads

[Flathead]

At least the end-play spec is good, maybe the babbit will be useable.

[Art Newland]

All is not lost! 8^)
At least not yet anyway. The bottom end is good and snug, certainly has been bored, a quick measure was less than 4inches, I'm guessing .080 over but will measure soon. A light honing might just clean up the cylinders. How much valve face needs to be left before it needs replaced?

[aonemarine]

valve margin is pretty debatable but I would try keep it over .020" at a minimum.
how about a shot of the Babitt??? hows the cam and lifters look??

[RonC]

Originally Posted by Art Newland

All is not lost! 8^)
At least not yet anyway. The bottom end is good and snug, certainly has been bored, a quick measure was less than 4inches, I'm guessing .080 over but will measure soon. A light honing might just clean up the cylinders. How much valve face needs to be left before it needs replaced?

Looking at the pictures it doesn't look like any recent work was done to the cylinder walls. It also looks like someone decked the block with a hand file. The valves appear to be original. Did you remove the main caps?

[Art Newland]

Haven't had a chance to get back at it. The bores do have light honing crosshatch marks. There is no ridge, i want to see if there is any taper.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I would never expect to buy an engine and get a warranty, unless it was purchased from a professional builder. If the seller sold this as being rebuilt, then you should be able to return it or get much of your money back, because from the pictures it is clearly not rebuilt.

I bought an engine at Iola about 9 years ago. It was a Model AA turned into a saw rig, but missing the saw part. The engine sounded perfect and had no knocks and no blowby. I paid $700 because it sounded great and ran so well. When I got it home I pulled the pan to check for sludge, and only found about 1/8", but when I turned the crankshaft, I heard air leaking past the rings, so I pulled the head. All 4 cylinders had deep grooves from the wrist pins scraping the walls, so basically I just threw away $700.

The seller runs a junk yard and all he did was start it and run it, so he knew just what I knew when I heard it run. I don't blame the seller, and never asked for money back, because it was a gamble and I lost. I never was a good gambler.
The seller and I are still good friends and I still buy things from him.

On the more positive side, I bought a complete engine with all the ancillaries bolted on for only $125, and I have a feeling it is good engine. It was pulled from a car being rodded, so I hope it's good to go, but for the price I couldn't have gone wrong.

[Art Newland]

Babbitt

[Art Newland]

Spent a little time looking things over. Pistons are .080 over. I'm no machinist but did my best with snap gauges, looks like about 3-4 thou taper. The plasti-gauge we had was all dried up so didn't get any clearances. There are about .035, equal on both sides, worth of shims on the rods. The worst valve has about .030 left and intake clearances are at .012, exhaust at .014. Other than the slight pitting in the rear two cyclinders, I think it looks pretty solid.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Looks like a good useable engine, just not a rebuilt one. I'd check the ring gap in the cylinder, then either put it back together and run it, or give it a light hone and new rings, and run it. This is assuming you are keeping it.

[CWPASADENA]

I would try to polish out the marks in the rear two cylinders with some 400 wet/dry paper using light oil instead of water and clean everything good. you may have a decent engine that will run for many miles. It will not be prefect but serviceable. I have seen a lot worse run for a long time.

My opinion

Chris W.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Dried up, inaccurate Plastigage is easy to find in modern auto-parts attics 2016.

Posted this before; however, over 20 million Model T's, Model A's, Model B's, and many thousands of all other Babbitt bearing gasoline and steam engines going back to the 1840's were adjusted by sensitive mechanics "WITHOUT PLATIGAGE" which was invented as late as the 1950's.

Some cannot adjust bearings without PLASTIGAGE and/or aluminum foil because they lack the art of "feeling", well known by sensitive, responsible, professional vintage old time mechanics.

The Ford Model T manual describers how to adjust Babbitt bearings "WITHOUT PLASTIGE OR ALUMINUM FOIL", so by the time Model A's were introduced, vintage mechanics already knew how to "feel" and effectively adjust Babbitt bearings every time without failure.

In my humble opinion, after using and experiencing PLASTIGAGE once. needing PLASTIGAGE to adjust Babbitt bearings is for those modern mechanics who have no "feelings"; much like those totally inexperienced first timers who pack similar synthetic rubber products in their suitcases to go on their Honeymoon and can never "feel" the difference.

[Art Newland]

I've only removed the one piston, I'm thinking the more I take it apart, the more of a chance I have of screwing it up. Hopefully this gives me a good "snapshot" of the rest of the lower-end. I'd like to round up enough parts to not need to dis-assemble my old engine, now to figure out everything I'll need.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by Kurt in NJ

I could build a engine with every part bad and set it up on a stand running and it would be quiet and smooth--- I have the parts. ---- could I call it rebuilt if I used new paint?

Yes many so called rebuilt's are new rings and repaint. To me rebuilt means put back in like new condition.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi George,

LOL, the key word in the old Model A engine re-build written advertisements was that after rebuild, the rebuilder would add: "A FRESH COAT OF PAINT"

Everybody knew back then that all rebuilt engines ran perfectly with: "A FRESH COAT OF PAINT!" LOL

[Kurt in NJ]

The oil hole in the rod should be connected to the oil grooves
I wouldn't worry about the rust stains left on the cylinder walls
I would pull the crankshaft to check the oil passages --- when the Babbitt came apart in my engine 3000 miles after rebuild I looked at 2 other engines done 5 and7 years after mine by the same company--- one had nice oil grooves but the wadding used to plug the oil holes for the pour was still there--- the other engine didn't have oil grooves or the oil hole drilled
A thin valve on the intake won't matter, it's more important that the seats be cut properly and not be too wide

[Art Newland]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

Hi George,

LOL, the key word in the old Model A engine re-build written advertisements was that after rebuild, the rebuilder would add: "A FRESH COAT OF PAINT"

Everybody knew back then that all rebuilt engines ran perfectly with: "A FRESH COAT OF PAINT!" LOL

It is painted... but the head and the block are different colors.
A two-tone rebuild!

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Art,

"Wow" ........ You got the Super-Deluxe Two-Tone Re-build Job!

Seriously, we all sincerely wish everything will work to your satisfaction.

[Art Newland]

If it only had a pinstripe... harhar!
I picked up a nice oilpan locally. I have a good distributor that needs a wiring job, and some little stuff on order. Then we'll see if we can make it run!

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

I know of twenty or thirty engines Dave did the babbit on. So I'm pretty sure it's set up right, bearing wise. How ever, building the engine, obviously another story.

[RonC]

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Originally Posted by Art Newland

I've only removed the one piston, I'm thinking the more I take it apart, the more of a chance I have of screwing it up. Hopefully this gives me a good "snapshot" of the rest of the lower-end. I'd like to round up enough parts to not need to dis-assemble my old engine, now to figure out everything I'll need.

You need to pull all caps and then readjust all bearings, main and rods.

[Art Newland]

Got it all cleaned up, but have to give my new oilpan the de-sludging treatment.

[1955cj5]

Hold that dip tray up to the light after you get it cleaned and look for pin holes.....if the oil drains out the tray the rods will not get oil for a short time on start-up...

[Art Newland]

Thanks for the heads up, will do. I suppose small holes could be brazed closed?

[1955cj5]

I silver brazed the holes on mine and it turned out OK but then found a good tray with no holes and so we used it....

[Dick Steinkamp]

Art,
How did you get the tray out of the pan? I've tried throwing it on the ground upside down...no joy.

[CarlG]

2X2 or wooden baseball bat in the oil pump relief and just pry it out.

[Dick Steinkamp]

Originally Posted by CarlG

2X2 or wooden baseball bat in the oil pump relief and just pry it out.

I'll give that a try. Thanks!

[Art Newland]

Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp

I'll give that a try. Thanks!

Drop straight to the ground from shoulder height... popped right out. It's all clean now and looks in great shape.

[Art Newland]

Next will be the oil pump, I have two, and a rebuild kit. What makes for a usable oil pump? Or what makes for a worn out oil pump?

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Art Newland

Next will be the oil pump, I have two, and a rebuild kit. What makes for a usable oil pump? Or what makes for a worn out oil pump?

If the bottom plate is worn, you can flip it over. You don't want loose bushings and excess clearance between the teeth and housing. The pump only needs to lift oil to the valve chamber, where it spills out the open pipe. Just about the only time a pump isn't usable is when the housing is cracked from careless handling.

Be sure the pump spring doesn't have any rust pits, which makes it likely to break in use.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Art,

[ "What makes for a usable oil pump?" ]

Model A Oil Pump Test:

1. In a small pot, pan, coffee can, or other container, add about 2" deep of kerosene or diesel.

2. Place and submerge the bottom end of the assembled upright pump in the kerosene or diesel.

3. With thumb and middle*- finger, grab top of steel slotted pump shaft.

4. Rotate pump shaft with quick movement simulating snapping your fingers.

5. The kerosene or diesel should horizontally exit the two (2) holes located near the top of the oil pump. (Be prepared for kerosene or diesel squirting out about 12" on each side of the pump.)

6. Also, next, rotate the top of this same oil pump shaft back and forth with thumb and "any" finger ..... the gears should sound smooth and not have a rattling sound like a corn grinder that is grinding cracked corn ...... or two (2) skeletons tap dancing on a tin roof ...... or a woodpecker pecking rapidly on a metal stove pipe ...... or an AK-47 set on automatic and firing away from you at about 200 yards away ...... or something similar.

* middle finger is the longest finger on one's hand ..... it also is the one that has other uses ..... like to greet an unfavorable politician appearing on a TV show.

Hope this helps.

[1955cj5]

Originally Posted by Art Newland

Next will be the oil pump, I have two, and a rebuild kit. What makes for a usable oil pump? Or what makes for a worn out oil pump?

Here are a couple of pictures of the pump in my old engine...

The first is of the old gears...quite a gap and it clattered like a ratchet spun backwards or woodpecker like H.L. described.

The second is of the new gears, then the worn bottom plate.

The machinist that rebuilt my engine made his own oil pump bushings as he felt the ones in the kit were not that good of a fit....no better than the old bushings really

I noticed that too when I kitted the old engine pump and just replaced the gears and shafts..

The bottom spring is what holds the pump in place..if the spring breaks I was told the pump could fall into the pan and no more oil flow. Follow Tom's advice...

And I don't think I used a gasket...it didn't need any extra clearance on the bottom plate, and where is it going to leak to?

[Dick Steinkamp]

Originally Posted by Art Newland

Drop straight to the ground from shoulder height... popped right out. It's all clean now and looks in great shape.

I tried that pretty aggressively. No go. I'll give the baseball bat a work out.

Yours looks great!

[Art Newland]

My oil pumps differ from one another. Are they interchangeable?

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Art Newland

My oil pumps differ from one another. Are they interchangeable?

Yes, as long as they have the spring to support them. Some earlier pumps had the spring attached to the oil pan, then later pumps had the spring mounted to the pump.

[Art Newland]

Ok I'll take a look at them. They both clickity-clack pretty good. Bushings on both have very slight side play.

[Art Newland]

I dis-assembled the "B" oil pump, it actually came with the engine. The gears were pretty worn. The installed bushings seem to be every bit as good as the new ones, so I won't bother installing them. Old Ford ones are probably better than the reproductions anyway. When first dropped into the housing there was a hard spot while spinning the shaft. I took them back out, looked them over and put them back in. Wouldn't turn at all. Took them out again, and they turned fine... "what the?" I'd read of needing to take some sandpaper to the gears on the repro stuff, but before I did, I tried a few things. I flipped the idler gear over and also tried "clocking" the gears at different points. By simply engaging the gears at different points I could find a happy place where things turned smoothly. I removed the screen, it looks fine, the spring looks great too.

[H. L. Chauvin]

FWIW: Humble Opinion from Past Experience:

In mentioning:

1. "When first dropped into the housing there was a hard spot while spinning the shaft."

2. Next, "Wouldn't turn at all."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A. Please remember that the oil pump rotates constantly at engine idle speed and/or at engine full speed ............... as opposed to a very slow turning starter which has maybe one millionth RPMs as that of the RPM's on an oil pump.

B. In the late 1950's I re-installed a used and quite worn "B" oil pump in a near "perfect" Model B engine.

C. After about 200 miles, this oil used pump broke mid-way up the very brittle cast iron round column which is located around the steel shaft.

D. Damage ?????: Number One (1) connecting rod started "clicking" and not long afterwards, it sounded as loud as the bass drum that the bass drum player was playing in the last verses of the famous final song ........... "Nearer My God To Thee" .................. while the Titanic was slowly sinking.

E. Barely made it home, but appears the moral of this story is not much different from other Model A mechanical failures:

"Cheep, Cheep, Cheep" Model A owners will always keep Model A engine re-builders in business."

F. For relaxing peace while driving far from home, $65.00 or so for new oil pump gears may sound "cheep, cheep, cheep" today, "if" they fail after a few hundred or thousand miles ....... but, just one (1) opinion ........ anyone ever notice that it is always the"Cheep, cheep, cheep" Model A decisions on this Forum that we hear of so often ............ either "before" or "after" said decision.

[Art Newland]

Not sure what you are suggesting? I did put in new gears...

[C26Pinelake]

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Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

FWIW: Humble Opinion from Past Experience:

In mentioning:

1. "When first dropped into the housing there was a hard spot while spinning the shaft."

2. Next, "Wouldn't turn at all."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A. Please remember that the oil pump rotates constantly at engine idle speed and/or at engine full speed ............... as opposed to a very slow turning starter which has maybe one millionth RPMs as that of the RPM's on an oil pump.

B. In the late 1950's I re-installed a used and quite worn "B" oil pump in a near "perfect" Model B engine.

C. After about 200 miles, this oil used pump broke mid-way up the very brittle cast iron round column which is located around the steel shaft.

D. Damage ?????: Number One (1) connecting rod started "clicking" and not long afterwards, it sounded as loud as the bass drum that the bass drum player was playing in the last verses of the famous final song ........... "Nearer My God To Thee" .................. while the Titanic was slowly sinking.

E. Barely made it home, but appears the moral of this story is not much different from other Model A mechanical failures:

"Cheep, Cheep, Cheep" Model A owners will always keep Model A engine re-builders in business."

F. For relaxing peace while driving far from home, $65.00 or so for new oil pump gears may sound "cheep, cheep, cheep" today, "if" they fail after a few hundred or thousand miles ....... but, just one (1) opinion ........ anyone ever notice that it is always the"Cheep, cheep, cheep" Model A decisions on this Forum that we hear of so often ............ either "before" or "after" said decision.

I totally agree with you Henry. Model A guys are forever looking for the 10 cent solution for a one dollar problem! My dad always said pay me now or pay me later ! The majority of Model A guys are the cheapest guys n the whole world. Wayne Wayne

[1955cj5]

I've rebuilt two oil pumps, just as Art did, and they work fine.

I'm not sure a "new" pump would be more reliable.

New pumps for old jeeps are notorious for failure

I suppose a housing crack or breakage could happen to any pump.

Not sure what H.L. is trying to say either....

[Art Newland]

Time to resurrect this thread and take a better look at my extra engine.
I bought this engine because it's current engine wasn't running very well. After some tinkering and lots of driving, it ran better and better so engine number 2 was put on hold. Even though my car runs ok at this time, it is certainly tired with compression of 45-50-50-50. I need more power to keep up with Dick's Tudor while climbing hills.
The bottom end of engine #2 looks great, but I do intend on pulling all the pistons, the crank and cam and taking a very good look.

[Art Newland]

A couple of concerns I have with it the the gouges in the deck of the block and the rust pitting in a couple of the cylinder walls. As long as some sealer would work on the head gasket, the slight pitting in the bores probably wouldn't make too much difference.

[Art Newland]

I'm thinking if the block deck was to be milled to clean up the gouging the studs would need to come out. So if I couldn't get the studs out, I'd try it as-is with lots of copper spray sealer! Low and behold with a little PB Blaster I was able to get them all out... still can't really believe it.

[Art Newland]

I've rebuilt several engines over the years, but always relied on a machinist to decide what was needed. Don't think I ever tinkered on an engine that was already over-bored. I'm trying to decide what size piston is already in it. Using a telescoping gauge in the bore, on top of the piston, I measure 3.950 inches. If standard is supposed to be 3.875, then that sounds like .070 over?? Or am I missing something?

[CarlG]

3.950 - 3.875 = .075

(unless my math is wrong)

[Art Newland]

Originally Posted by CarlG

3.950 - 3.875 = .075

(unless my math is wrong)

The piston needs 2-4 thou of clearance, +- my accuracy of measuring?
It just seems weird for it to be a .070 instead of 20, 40, 60, etc? Maybe it's not that unusual?

I did a cylinder taper measurement also, looks like about .005, which sounds a little excessive.

[Kurt in NJ]

The engine I bored for my brother had .045 taper, was used in irrigation pump, got new rings every winter, .005 is ok , .010 is getting near normal limits, several engines I did at .012 never had problems, even in cross country driving

the "rust" in the walls doesn't look to be much of a problem to worry about, I have seen much worse damage be not a problem

the block deck looks to of had a very coarse dirty file run across it, that I would put a straight edge on to see how flat the deck is, some people don't seem to mind changing headgaskets every so often though, and expect problems

[Art Newland]

Thanks Kurt, great info.

[37Benny]

Originally Posted by Chuck Sea/Tac

I know of twenty or thirty engines Dave did the babbit on. So I'm pretty sure it's set up right, bearing wise. How ever, building the engine, obviously another story.

Some of my trusted sources also talk about Dave and the quality of his work. Benny

[Art Newland]

Originally Posted by 37Benny

Some of my trusted sources also talk about Dave and the quality of his work. Benny

Good to hear Benny, Thanks.