Town Car In Swap Meet

[Stretch Cab]

Just wondering if this is one that has been known or the proverbial barn find?

[Jordan]

asking price is way high. I've seen restored '29s asking for $130,000. I mean, a '30 is way more rare, but at that point- a town car is a town car. A year difference wouldn't mean much to me.

[spdway1]

I just ran out and bought a handfull of Lottery tickets!

[peters180a/170b]

OK , am i missing something here? What Swap meet ? Someone has pictures?

[Lance in St Louis]

Ford Barn Swap Meet above. Model A for sale.
Lance

[gweilbaker]

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I don't get it?

[1931 flamingo]

I looked and didn't see a town car, saw video of a town sedan, no big deal. JMO
Paul in CT

[Russell in Tulsa]

1931 Flamingo, go to the swap section and enter"Control F". A window should pop up and type in Town car and it will be high lighted. Bob Johnson may be interested but I sure ain't!

[Mitch//pa]

http://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=133156

here is the link for anyone interested

[Joop]

Photos can be seen here you tube picture slide show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax7DiHIr3Xg

Click on the arrow in the Youtube screen and pictures will appear


..

[todd3131]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

OK , am i missing something here? What Swap meet ? Someone has pictures?

[QUOTE=1931 flamingo;835271]I looked and didn't see a town car, saw video of a town sedan, no big deal. JMO
Paul in CT[/QUOTE

Go back and look again I didn't know they made a 30 but there it is

[spdway1]

Only 63 built in 1930 (Domestic).

[Maclab58]

So sad to see itin such bad shape. I'm sure it could be restored but at what cost?????

[SDJason]

This calls for Jay Leno to ride to the rescue...with his resources, the car would certainly get the tender loving care and restoration it deserves. But then again, I suppose anyone who could afford it in the first place could afford to restore it properly.

[CometCyclone]

I see some interest in the car but nobody has contacted me.I'm open to offers and trades.I also have other cars and more A's.

[dlshady]

Out of curiosity, what's the history on this particular car?

[Roadster62]

Must be the same one that was at the Rhinebeck Swap Meet 40 so years ago. When I saw it it had more brazed in patches and repairs than any car I've ever seen. It looks far better in those photos. Bob

[calvin amerson]

I followed the thread an saw it stated that this car was one of three known to exist obviously the intent here is for unrestored cars, I personally know of two cars one restored one not, one left hand drive the other right hand drive don" remember which is which , both very nice nether of these are for sale.

[Franchise_24]

While it would be nice to own a town car, that car is in no way shape or form worth $100k IMO.

[ronn]

Fellas,
here's some history-body found in a dump in the early 60's, mated to another A chassis
spoke with the owner a couple years back and was told 50k, got up there to look at it and the son decided it was 75k.......... so now see it is 100k

all that wallpaper this administration is printing is turning into WW1 German deutsche marks!
Just in case anyone is interested, missing so many small items that you better be a pretty damn good machinist with a big wallet for manufacturing.
anyways, had to think long and hard at 50k and smiled at the suggestion of going up from there.
Is fun to dream-reality, go buy a done one.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Franchise_24

While it would be nice to own a town car, that car is in no way shape or form worth $100k IMO.

What's your guess?

How much if it were 100% 490+ points car?

[CometCyclone]

Fellas,

Price is a starting price. In the past when selling cars and not putting an asking price you either get 2 types of responses. 1: you get reamed out for no asking price 2: you get lowball offers such as $1,500.

I'm basing my price on previous offers.Some of the responses here people get the idea that I'm firm with 100k... that don't mean I won't considar 60-75k either for example.It's worth what somebody is willing to pay. It is a buyer's market.

[Joe K]

It is a buyer's market.

Buyers market implies surplus of commodity compared to buyers.

This not the case.

Alternative would be surplus of buyers compared to commodity.

This not the case either.

The truth is somewhere in between. And this of sufficient rarity - along with a buyer of sufficient rarity. This a case of market stands at "between buyer and seller."

Good luck with this. It certainly cries out for a savior with not only the interest but the means. Jay Leno would be a good candidate.

Heh. One of my interests is an 1868 Colt Baxter Steam engine. 17 are extant nationwide (of a hundred thousand more more made in their time.) One of those 17 owners 'sounded me out" to become the next "custodian" of his as he is aging and seekful of someone who is appreciative to be the next in line.

While flattered mightly, frankly I had to beg off. While appreciative of the machine's techinical and historical merit - ownership implies RESPONSIBILITY. Responsibility not only for it's care and maintenance, but also to a social responsibility. People need to see and be made to appreciate the machine's development and merits. It's part of our engineering historical culture. And given my life's condition and income level - I could not do the Baxter Steam Engine justice.

Similarly whoever latches onto this will hopefully be able to do it justice.

This sort of along the lines of (formerly) Charlie Bass's Model A No. 189.

Keep this in mind when selecting your buyer.

Best regards,
Joe K

[Mike V. Florida]

To all, what's your guess as to present worth?

Is this one a number matching car? This would almost double the worth in my opinion.

How much if it were 100% 490+ points car what would it be worth?

How much to make it a 490+ points car?

As with most A's what you put in is not what you are going to get out.

Found one, a 1929 that sold at Christies in 1995 restored for 53,000.

[spdway1]

CometCyclone - I sent you a PM (private message) thru this board. Thank you.

[Mitch//pa]

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Originally Posted by Steve Wastler

I would say in its present state, given what it is no more than 20k. Numbers matching maybe 25k. When restored to 490 points 120k. You could easily have 150k just in resto cost, not including purchase price. You can get offers all day long, most won't have merit, a true offer would be backed up by a fistful of cash. Given this one has been dangled like a carrot for years, the asking price is way out in left field. Seems more of a look what I have, I'll never sell kinda thing. The best way to tell value on this one is a HIGHLY publicized auction with NO reserve, it'll bring what it brings. With the price tag on it now, I can only see it going overseas...JMHO
Wishing the seller best of luck...

steve that pretty much sums it up

if he was offered 60-75 already , should have grabbed it and ran as fast as he could

[CometCyclone]

Was my fathers car until 2 years ago. Now the decision is mine not his.He passed away 2 years ago. I'm not dangling it like a carrot. I shouldn't be held accountable for offers my father has turned down in the past.

[SkipShift]

A better description and more photo's might bring an offer. Maybe call Danielle and get yourself on American Pickers. We all want a peek in that garage.

[Franchise_24]

Originally Posted by CometCyclone

Was my fathers car until 2 years ago. Now the decision is mine not his.He passed away 2 years ago. I'm not dangling it like a carrot. I shouldn't be held accountable for offers my father has turned down in the past.

Sorry to hear about your Dad. Are you into Model "A"'s at all? Have you ever thought about keeping it and getting it running?

[Deluxe Delivery Don]

It would be nice to see a detailed description of this Town Car. How complete is it or incomplete is it? Is their a Title ? To restore this Town Car and Not complete would almost Not be worth Restoring. Remember this is my opinion . My opinion based on info available it is worth some where in the range of $ 5,000. - $15,000. We all could use more info. Thanks. Sorry to hear about your father.

[RobertB]

I don't see Jay Leno or anyone like that doing this. $100K will buy a lot of collector car projects. The labor to restore one, and probably most of the parts and fabrication will be the same, whether it's a Model A or a Cord.

And which one will sell for more when it's finished?

Don't get me wrong, I love Model A's, but if I'm going to spend close to $200K on a car and restoration, it would probably be an older Jaguar, or an Aston Martin, or some such.

The beauty of Model A's is that we can afford them, they are simple, and we can affod to restore them as necessary, and not be out the price of a nice house.

Just my opinion, everybody has one.

[peters180a/170b]

In all honestly it will cost easy $200,000.00 to restore in this shape. If the wood is missing and incomplete good luck finding a pattern !! Too many small parts ???? Mirror to name 1. I wish the seller luck and hope some kind of deal can be reached. Years on the restoration will be needed no matter how deep your pockets are... And RobertB is right you gotta LOVE the Model "A" Ford for $200,000.00 even if it was done a nice 1930 /31 Packard or a Cadillac open car could be had...ME if i had that kind of money i would buy a 1932 Ford Phaeton AND a 1934 Ford Cabriolet Restored ,I would say the 34 would come first because i think its the nicest looking Ford built.

[Deluxe Delivery Don]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

in all honestly it will cost easy $200,000.00 to restore in this shape. If the wood is missing and incomplete good luck finding a pattern !! Too many small parts ???? Mirror to name 1. I wish the seller luck and hope some kind of deal can be reached. Years on the restoration will be needed no matter how deep your pockets are... And robertb is right you gotta love the model "a" ford for $200,000.00 even if it was done a nice 1930 /31 packard or a cadillac open car could be had...me if i had that kind of money i would buy a 1932 ford phaeton and a 1934 ford cabriolet restored ,i would say the 34 would come first because i think its the nicest looking ford built.

Amen !!!!!!!!!!!

[Stretch Cab]

I'm really surprised by some of the low ball prices being thrown out for the car. Sure it will take a mint to restore this car but after all we are talking about the holy grail of Model A's. When I was a kid I got to see a Town Car being restored and we have a 34 Cabriolet in the family. Both are fantastic cars but IMHO the Town Car is almost magical. I only hope that whoever buys the car will document the restoration here on FB for the rest of us to see.

[Joe K]

I only hope that whoever buys the car will document the restoration here on FB for the rest of us to see.

Coffee Table book.

Joe K

[eagle]

ANYthing that is that rare and desirable is not going to have many people who can afford it. If someone wants it bad enough to pay $40,000 they'll pay 80K, or 100K. Its one of a select few, it doesn't matter what shape its in, it is WHAT it is that makes it valuable. I had a '31 Standrive, I knew I would never be able to do it properly, so I found someone who could do it right, and sold it for $1k. I would LOVE to have the truck, but it would still be undone and no one would be enjoying it. I would say, keep your price up, or give it away to a proper custodian. Anything else is a travesty. $5K for a TOWNCAR???? Give me a break. Now,,,IF it is a cobbled up bunch of crap parts from an assortment of donors, thats a different story.

[CometCyclone]

In all honesty if I had the financial means I'd restore this car.I like model A's alot I grew up riding in the rumble seat of a 31 coupe.I'd love to have a beater/driver Model A pickup to run to Home Depot with I chose to sell off a 1931 L-29 cabriolet Cord and decided to keep this one instead.However the money from the cord went to pay dad's hospital bills rather than to begin work on this car.If I had offers of 5-20k I just assume sit on the car until I either gain the financial means or until a serious buyer comes along.This is a true genuine 1930. 1 of 3. not 5 etc of some of the rumors of how many 30's are floating around.I'm offering the car for someone who has dreamed of having one of these possible and for those who didn't know where this car was. I'm sure many of you heard about this car but few have known where it was.The other 2 30's are owned by a single man so the opportunity is out there for any serious buyers.Those other 2 30's are also restored.Any questions or serious buyers can contact me @ 518 672 7170.I will say the car is not complete.But any other questions should go through me and not speculated.If the car sells I still have other nice cars to fall back on that also need a restoration.I have a 32 Studebaker commander touring,A rugby pickup,Velie,Brooks steam car and a few other oddities.Ask yourself where are you gonna find another 30? Or do you settle for a 29? I will also go on to say back in 1988 my father sold 300 cars at an auction and this car brought 13k back then.... so what is the car worth today with inflation etc... back then 13k was very good money.Needless to say the price was turned down.Again this was my fathers doing if you want to say dangling it as a carrot.I will sell it for the right $$.I can also try to take additional photos of special requests but again serious buyers... the car is 20 miles from my house.It's best to come see the car in person.Don't take my word for the car or anyone else's for that matter. Something I may rate a 9 on a scale of 1-10 u might rate a 6 or even an 8 for example.Point of this whole thing is boils down to How bad do you want it?How deep are your pockets? And, how desperate or needy is the seller? Comparing a 29 to a 30 is like comparing an apple to an orange the only thing they have in common is the fact that they are both round.I'm also quite suprised on the # of guys that don't know the difference between a 29 and a 30.I had several people tell me they know where 30's are but are in fact 29's.There was even a comment about a guy seeing a town sedan in my slide show? Obvious Square corners on the body are a dead giveaway for one... I don't mean to piss anybody off I just want to set the record straight.You all are entitled to you opinion.But is it fair to say that if you don't have deep pockets or the desire to restore it can u put a fair value on something like this?

[1wonton]

It's a good thing this man likes this car since he will never sell it. Hope he doesn't have that money spent already.

[Mitch//pa]

maybe flop can make the parts

[Bob Johnson]

I have done some research on Model A Town Cars.

First the production numbers.

1928 There were 89 built all in the US
1929 There were 913 built in US 100 foreign (1013 total)
1930 There were 63 US built an 33 foreign (96 total)

Total production 1198 (1065 US, 133 foreign)

Which is the rarest ? Depends on how you look at it. 1928 had the lowest production. There were more US made cars than foreign.

All Model A Town Car bodies were built by the Briggs Body Company. The completed bodies were shipped to the assembly plants where they were put on chassis which were made at the assembly plants. In late 1928 Ford placed an order for around 2000 bodies. Briggs built bodies from late 1928 through early 1929. Because the sales were not good Briggs had a backlog of Town Car bodies in early 1929, so the stopped production. They only made about 1200 bodies. At the end of 1929 Briggs still had around 100 Town Car bodies. Ford told Briggs to convert them into 1930 cars. Briggs converted them by replacing the front doors and cowls with modified parts from 1930 Town Sedans.

The critical parts for a 1930 Town Car are in the body from the door pillar to the rear of the car. The exception is the rear doors. The rear doors are the same as the Briggs Town Sedan / Fordor with the exception of the inside trim piece just below the window. Most of the wood is unique to the Town Car and patterns do not exist. The partition is also unique and has many components including curved glass. The rear seat is unique. The armrests in the rear include a cigar lighter and a vanity case which are hard to find. There was also a clock in the passenger side of the partition header. The rear view mirror is also unique. The metal body panels are also unique. There are aluminum trim pieces on the two rear corners of the body. Do not forget the hassocks.

I have found that the owners of Model A Town Cars are willing to help other Town Car owners with whatever they can. Anyone who would restore this car could get help from some of the other Town Car owners.

I looked at the few pictures available I can not tell how easy or hard it would be to restore this car. Questions are: How much of the partition is missing ? How much of the roof structure is missing ? Is there an original back seat / arm rests. What is the condition of the body sheet metal and wood?

Bob

[Mitch//pa]

bob thanks for posting that very interesting info

[Stretch Cab]

I think someone needs to buy it for a reasonable price and form a team of volunteers to restore it and then donate the car to the Model A Museum. We would gain a real jewel for the museum and the donar a hefty tax right off. I'm sure many would volunteer their services for advertisement rights. I know it would still take deep pockets beyond the original purchase. There is a B17 being built by volunteers un Ohio so why not a town car..........

[peters180a/170b]

Bob J. thank you for the info and [hard parts list] .As i said in my last post I REALLY wish the seller good luck and sounds like a Honest person to deal with. I am sorry about hearing about his father. I do know about the person who owns the other 2 restored and frankly if he can not make a deal on this one then no one will. He of all people knows very well what it will take to restore and the price it should sell for in this shape.. I seen Bill Sturm work on a 1929 TownCar top & uph. what you don't want is to see the "COST"...

[peters180a/170b]

forever4 ....for years trying to find out the correct parts during the restoration of my 180A i too have drawings from the Archives [paying a visit downstairs] copies from the late Al. Lapore and the President of the 180A group Ross M. ..There is always the case that #1 drawing is followed by #2 drawing [updated] and so on and SOMETIMES the updated drawing winds up missing . you will find 1,2,3 and think that's it... not.. there could be 4 ,5 and 6 . I have argued with Bill Sturm on a number of parts. [cloth cover over the rearend under the rear seat.[its WHITE DUCK] as per Archives and not black top material found on Sedans. So what you are saying is the 140A the wood is the same for all TownCars 1928, 29-30 ??? No one can pin point the 180A bodies being build by Briggs and the changes they made 2 or 3 times or more in one month time. In the early stages of the 180A Briggs did what they wanted to do.. If it worked for Chevy it will work on a Ford... The rubber door parts are off a 1929 Chevy Sedan.

[fords]

Wow, unfortunately - someone with more ----y than -----s will buy it at a high price.
remember - Its only worth what a man is willing to buy it for.

[CometCyclone]

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The wood is clearly seen in the pictures... there are parts that are not pictured sitting in a pile in the passenger compartment.Some parts in boxes.Some parts already made such as the 2nd windshield posts.Acutally we had the originals but we lent ours out to another guy to duplicate for his TC and he made a 2nd restored set.Again you guys are speculating without talking to me about it.I will be heading out to the location of the car tomorrow to get some more pictures that were requested.

[Junior]

I also believe it's worth what someone will pay. I have some very, very wealthy clients. With some, I learned long ago not to ask what a budget is on a upcoming project. They simply want the best money can buy and that's it. If these folks wanted this car they would buy it and not think twice about the cost. Reminds me of a Lake Tahoe trip I took with some buddies while in the military 20 years ago. I witnessed a very well known and popular actor throw down $500.00 on a blackjack table. He didn't even sit down. The dealer turned over a queen and his first card was a 7. He just walked away and never saw another card turn over. I remember saying to myself that's the coolest thing I've ever seen and or the stupidest. Still haven't decided, but I will never forget that as long as I live.

Consider this. Once worth $72 billion, a 6% rate of return would earn Gates roughly $114.16 per second he is alive, making it a poor investment for Bill Gates to bother picking up a $100 bill if he dropped it.

Bill Gates is 58 this year. If we assume that he will live for another 33 years, he has to spend $6 million per day to use up all of his wealth.

There are a lot of very wealthy prople out there and to them money is only something they have to use to get whatever they desire. How much they have to use really isn't a factor.

I think if this very rare car was marketed right, it could very well bring the asking price.

[peters180a/170b]

What i am saying Briggs use what ever they seem fit. Door rubber bumper parts used on a 1929 Chevy body , Briggs did experiments on the 180A bodies as the were building them [50 at a time].What we call crows feet [ metal bracket that bolted to the wood subrail was changed 3 times. ] One of the 180A cars i had ,the rear bumper arm to rear wood cross member did not have a rivet but a nut and bolt so that you can lift the body off without taking the back seat out and removing the 4 nuts and bolts holding the bracket to the rear wood cross member. I just wish some of the info. did not go up in flames.

[CometCyclone]

pics added. some parts in question pictured... some in boxes and partial parts there too.

[CometCyclone]

My phone seems to be not working...Phone company cannot fix until Monday.. Email me [email protected]

[dean from bozeman]

It is great to see that there is another Model A "Holy Grail" out there.

I hope that Comet Cyclone gets a price that he is happy with.

I hope that it goes to someone who will do it justice and restore it to a fine point condition.

What it costs to buy and what it costs to restore, I don't care. I would just love to see it be reborn.

[dean from bozeman]

Steve, some of the parts that you see are associated only with a Town Car. It's like that for us 3 digit ve28 Model A guys, but even more so for the Town Car guys. Some car parts are just extremely rare.

To collectors a 1916D Mercury dime in mint condition is worth $35,000. Even a 16D at the low grade of 12 is worth $2,700. To some it is just a dime that they wouldn't give more than 10 cents for.

Rare is rare. Whether it be coins, stamps, pottery or automobiles, if it is rare it commands a higher price. My mother-in-law once bought a vase at a garage sale that she thought was unusual. She paid $35 for it but said that she wouldn't have paid more. At a friend's request she put it on eBay and got $1,200 for it. Though it was only worth $35 to her to a collector the value was much greater.

Some folks don't collect so a collector driven price doesn't mean much. Guys at a grocery store might say that they would give me $1,500 for my Model A. Some (those who are collectors) would be insulted. I just realize that they are not collectors and not in the market so it doesn't have the same value.

I've heard of people who want to build an early '28 because they have an on-off-dim switch and that's just one part. Here we have a 1930 Town Car. It is just one of 3 known to exist! Is there any rarer Model A?

You and I, because we are not collectors of Town Cars, may not want to pay big bucks for it. You and I may not want to pay big bucks for a well worn coin. But there is value, big value in both. The coin will always be just a grade 12 1916D Mercury dime. To a collector they can see what this Town Car might become. I hope that Comet Cyclone finds that guy.

[Franchise_24]

Originally Posted by dean from bozeman

Steve, some of the parts that you see are associated only with a Town Car. It's like that for us 3 digit ve28 Model A guys, but even more so for the Town Car guys. Some car parts are just extremely rare.

To collectors a 1916D Mercury dime in mint condition is worth $35,000. Even a 16D at the low grade of 12 is worth $2,700. To some it is just a dime that they wouldn't give more than 10 cents for.

Rare is rare. Whether it be coins, stamps, pottery or automobiles, if it is rare it commands a higher price. My mother-in-law once bought a vase at a garage sale that she thought was unusual. She paid $35 for it but said that she wouldn't have paid more. At a friend's request she put it on eBay and got $1,200 for it. Though it was only worth $35 to her to a collector the value was much greater.

Some folks don't collect so a collector driven price doesn't mean much. Guys at a grocery store might say that they would give me $1,500 for my Model A. Some (those who are collectors) would be insulted. I just realize that they are not collectors and not in the market so it doesn't have the same value.

I've heard of people who want to build an early '28 because they have an on-off-dim switch and that's just one part. Here we have a 1930 Town Car. It is just one of 3 known to exist! Is there any rarer Model A?

You and I, because we are not collectors of Town Cars, may not want to pay big bucks for it. You and I may not want to pay big bucks for a well worn coin. But there is value, big value in both. The coin will always be just a grade 12 1916D Mercury dime. To a collector they can see what this Town Car might become. I hope that Comet Cyclone finds that guy.

Well said Dean!!

[kelley's restoration]

i think it would be cool to just get the mechanicals fixed
brace up all the realllllly bad areas (which there are many)
and drive it, show it, heck judge it
but at least somehow get it back on the road
price is price
value is value
but there are VERY few people in this WORLD that can fix that car, and they would be doing this just for the chalange not for the profit involved in fixing it
its not mine so what i say really doesnt hold much water, but i think it would be a real neat deal if the car was bought by a non for proffit and was restored by peole as a donation to then ford museum
tk

[peters180a/170b]

I would like to see such a fund start just to buy the car ,, but first based on a expert on 1930 TownCars makes the call if there is enough to restore it or parts that can be copied off of another 1930 TownCar. Something like the 1M Ford. ..To the Model "A' Ford Museum. I know most of us have extra parts restored or not to help out.. I do...

[ronn]

Steve,
I tend to concur with you. I was willing to pay quite a bit more a few years back, because I wtd a towncar so badly. Today I wouldn't want to take the project on, it is just out of my league both financially and capability wise. It is also far from being a complete and accurate car.
It appears there are many views on this board and some tend to shoot high and some low (as in valuing A189....).
In the end, if it doesn't sell, then so be it. That is the way life goes and we all have choices to make regarding buying and selling and what we own and don't own.
Just remember, dreaming is free............

[dave in australia]

Dean, there is a rarer A than 1 of 3 1930 TC's. It is 1 of 2 fabric bodied 1929 fordors. Both are still alive too.

[Deluxe Delivery Don]

Originally Posted by Steve Wastler

I have obviously struck a chord in some regarding my opinion, both stated public and private. While I will agree that all things have value to whomever. I also believe, this one do to anyone not being able to agree on a value, is unfortunately headed to extinction, to mines and anyone's displeasure. Can't help it, that's how I feel. It's been going on since at least the prior auction in 1988.

If my opinions offend anyone, please block my posts, it won't offend me.

One doesn't have to be able to afford the specific item to determine value. Town car collectors have a stake at seeing it sell as high as possible and would be willing to 'adjust the market' at will.

I still don't see it over 20k.

Steve ,I have to totally agree on all your points. Based on the current pictures and info that we all have here. In my personal opinion I don't see it over $10,000. There is just not enough ORIGINAL PARTS there . A chassis is a chassis ,but the rest COULD be a bottomless pit. If it was purchased by a group to restore it ,and donated it to a museum ,I would possibly donate some funds to help restore it to preserve it. BUT it is going to take a LOT of Money. Remember guys we are All entitled to our opinions.

[dave in australia]

Originally Posted by forever4

What about one of one Stainless Steel Tudor Sedans. I'd like to own that one!

1931 Stainless Steel Tudor Sedan on Ford Garage

All extremely rare.

[Tudortomnz]

Originally Posted by dave in australia

All extremely rare.

Yes, the Australian fabric panelled [ the whole body] '29 fordors are rare, but they also did some Tudors [ none exist?] plus at least one in Canada.
The Budd body Fordor [ with non Ford chassis] prototype, the 1931 3W Coupe & the first Town Car prototype [ aluminium by LeBaron] are probably the rarest?

[Maclab58]

I have never heard of a fabric covered sedan. Pictures?

[Mike V. Florida]

I find this thread interesting. I am, though, sorry to read that it has become personal to some.

Here is my opinion;

Value and worth are personal things. What something is worth may be different for different people. We have here a rare model of the Model A. What is it worth asks the seller?

We have read here the problem with finding parts, the cost to create new parts etc. We know that within this group it is not worth the original 100,000 or even 60,000 as it has not been bought yet or an offer made.

Do we even have a guess at to what it would be worth if completely restored?

CometCyclone if I were you I would offer a few thousand to a present owner of a town car or at least someone knowledgeable in them to come by and take inventory of the parts at hand, assess the condition etc. in other words give an overall opinion of exactly what you have. With this knowledge you will be able to present to the public a picture of what is needed and give you top dollar for the sale. Lets say you are missing nothing, the car would be worth more to a buyer then if the same buyer believes he may have to have custom parts made, would it not?

I happen to agree with Steve Wastler and his guess on value and possible resale value on completion. CometCyclone thinks he has a goldmine but the proof is in the sale. If nobody offers him what he thinks is enough it will sit of worse be destroyed. His father turned down 13k in '88 but now the car has rotted further in 25 years. The pictures do not show it was stored in anything close to a climate controlled building so the wood and metal would be in worse shape now then in '88. We here that it is one of three, how many town cars of all years does one think are out there? The one confirmed sale I could find at Christies in 1995, a 1929 sold for 53,000.

Like I said it's my opinion.

Oh here are some cars that sold reciently;

Restored, Auburn 874 Dual Cowl Phaeton $120,000
Barn Fresh, Cord Phaeton $55,000
Survivor, V6 last front wheel drive made onle one of 2 made 1967 Glenn Pray Cord -$29000

Where does this A fit in?

[dave in australia]

Originally Posted by Maclab58

I have never heard of a fabric covered sedan. Pictures?

The body was built by Ford Australia. One was featured in a magazine called Restored Cars about five years ago. Sorry, don't have pictures.

[DougVieyra]

That car is worth about $10,000 for it's extremely poor 'bits and pieces'. It will take another $40,000 - $50,000 to rebuild it back to a respectable restoration of a 1930 Town Car. Plus years of time, anguish and custom building of un-usable and missing parts. Not for the faint of heart.

[dean from bozeman]

Mike V. Florida you bring up an excellent alternative for CometCyclone, have it looked at by someone in the know and help determine a price.

Steve Wastler, I would never block your posts. You bring up valid points and I personally enjoy hearing differing opinions. My dad was a "my way or the highway" type of guy. I hit the highway.

As with many Fordbarn posts this one may be going on too long. However, I would love to hear more about those "rarest of Model A's". I had never even heard of a fabric Model A. A new post with descriptions and photos would be great.

Dean

[CometCyclone]

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The L-29 Cord I sold I was selling for 2 years. I I had about 2 offers over the period of the sale... and guess what I got my asking price on it when it was all said and done.I got similar comments and opinions on it about that one too.Such as storage condition etc.I didn't say that I didn't have any offers on this car.I find it distasteful that you guys are model A fans and are talking about this car like that and labeling it #6 scrap.In fact the car is not worse than when it was in 88.The wood is already done on the car and is not rotten.I don't know where you guys are getting your comments from if you haven't even looked at the car yourselves. There's too many people out there that want to buy a running driving car for $500 then to put some time in money into something.If your more comfortable with a $20,000 restored town sedan,coupe go buy one of those and don't bother putting your negative comments on here.

As buyers we buy something because we like it not because of what it's worth.We don't worry about what it will sell for because we bought it for ourselves.It's like when somebody customizes a hot rod there's so many different options a owner does that others wouldn't like.Chopping turns on some buyers but turns off others same with drive train choice,fenders, original color etc.They build it to their taste not somebody else's.

I've also been getting private messages saying that people do not wish to go against the points guys publicly in this tread about the car.

The right buyer is out there.I doubt the right guy is here though.It seems most of you would be joyful to see it left at the dump years ago.I'm talking to a guy outside of this forum about the car will I get 100k problly not. 70k ? maybe 50k well I don't know atleast the guy is serious enough about the car to come look at it.A guy come to look at it about 5 years ago and offered my father then 40k for the car then made a 2nd offer quite higher than that just goes to show exactly what I'm talking about.Maybee the buyer just needs to be in the right spending mood.how bad does somebody want the car? what are they willing to spend and is 40k just a drop in the bucket for them?

[Hicktick]

Comet don't get upset about the comments on the car .

Pictures don't lie and the car is real rough . Its hard to tell if its a real town car .

You say the wood has been replaced and the car is not rotten , well lets just say the pictures say something else .

I hope you get a buyer that can bring it back .

Like someone else said , better call Flop .

[CometCyclone]

I said wood is not rotten. car is rough but I've seen much worse restored.

[Roadster62]

I hope my post #19 was't taken as a negative, it was rought when I saw it at Rhinebeck years ago. That said it is very rare, and the right guy can save it if a selling price can be agreed to. Far rougher cars have been saved. Bob

[ronn]

Mike,
the town car doesn't fit into your grouping at all-possibly due to it's rarity, it stands alone.
Can we compare an old comp on a 29 town car? Maybe, but again, not only is this a rarer year and a different time period, but it is also not a complete car. So now we delve into what is a rare car worth that is say- only half original?
What is a Mercer worth with only a chassis, engine and trans, but with a completely new body, gas tank, wheels, etc. vs. an all original Mercer with provenance from say 1912?
Yes, this is a very interesting topic in many more ways then one. If this car should change hands at some point, the exact amount paid at that point will establish a precedent for this car-speculation will not and comps of other town cars are only a starting point.....
Someone with means may not even consider this car, due to it being quite incomplete.

[Tudortomnz]

Originally Posted by Maclab58

I have never heard of a fabric covered sedan. Pictures?

Also pictured in The Restorer , 2010, March April ,I think.

[eystein]

Are there any photos on the net of any of the two restored 1930 Town cars or any factory photos.

The only one that I've been able to find is this one :

http://www.modelahouse.com/others/tim/tim0079.jpg

And it doesn't show much.

Would be nice of someone could post pictures if they've got any.

[ronn]

stein,
if you can find a copy of the Restorer-volume 31 issue 6 from 1987-there is a great
article and photos of the town cars.
Bought mine on ebay.............

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by CometCyclone

.

I've also been getting private messages saying that people do not wish to go against the points guys publicly in this tread about the car.

You know, I kinda see that little comment as amusing, ...yet troubling. With the exception of Peter Mendola posting above, I have not seen any public comments or interaction from knowledgeable "points guys" on this topic.

On the reverse side, I have read several comments by folks who really do not have knowledge about, --nor the true ability to step-up and complete the deal, ...whether it would be financially or possess the restoration-related skills needed! I does appear however, that some feel compelled to make statements about things they really have no factual knowledge about, ...and for that I cannot help but wonder why. With that mindset, I just shake my head in disbelief at the "disservice" that some of you folks are openly making towards this gentleman's property, AND to the Model-A hobby as a whole. Whatever happened to the Golden Rule, and the famous comment our Moms told us like 'If you Cannot say something nice, then don't say anything at all'.

I am not trying to be a 'forum police' or a troll in this but I would like to ask that all of us please step back to give thought and consideration about what information you are posting for the entire world to read. How would you honestly feel if the roles were reversed and folks were publicly blasting your own car?

[fingers]

Well said Brent. I have been thinking about making the purchase and taking the car down to you for restoration. Are you up to it ???

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Steve Wastler

Brent, Since this forum is a discussion based forum and it is public, how are we supposed to offer opinions on any given subject? Not everyone sees things the same, and unless you know each and everyone personally, how do you know the majority of people posting don't have the ability to complete a restoration of these remains. Leaving out the deep pockets, which I have stated I don't have. Sounds like quite 'Elitest' based comments to me.

Well, my point was more to the facts. Folks have suggested that it didn't look like a Town Car. My thoughts are that if someone is not that well versed on the peculiarities and special features of this bodystyle, then wouldn't it be best to not state an opinion that has the possibility of being incorrect. Asking questions is fine but why doubt someone publicly on what someone has stated without first knowing the facts really does not seem like it is in the best interest for anyone or the hobby in general.

Next, to state publicly that it is not worth the asking price to them begs the question why someone feels compelled to make such a public statement, ...especially if they are not in the position to make the purchase. Doesn't this set an undertone to other readers how the vehicle is not worth this amount? Again, folks here are seemingly giving "armchair appraisals" regarding vehicles they really do not have knowledge about. By that, from my perspective it seems these are people whom have never studied these vehicles, nor have they physically inspected this particular vehicle. Therefore I fail to see how anything positive can come from such a scenario.

With regard to how folks are supposed to give opinions, my position is, why is there a need to even give an opinion? The thread started out asking if this was a known car or a recent find. You stated that it has been known about for sometime and then offered an unsolicited opinion that you felt the asking seemed high which opened the door for another person to give his opinion saying it was way too high. What qualified this individual to make this kind of public statement? Before long another uneducated person states he saw the video and it is nothing more than a Town Sedan. I agree these people are within their rights to voice their opinion however look at the integrity/validity damage that has been made towards the seller (--which I do not know nor have I spoken with) all because of misinformation. Look at all the corrections that have been made in this post due to misinformation written as 'fact'.

In your defense, it does seem like this is the direction that this forum is seeking to go, and probably why many of the "points guys" have backed away from public postings here. I forgot the exact phrase that was used but the general jest I heard was it gets old continually trying to correct all of the non-factual based opinions that are posted here. Oh well, I will back away and let y'all carry on. Have a great day everyone!!

.

[Tom Wesenberg]

For a car that isn't drivable, this car sure is getting a lot of mileage.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

For a car that isn't drivable, this car sure is getting a lot of mileage.

it is drivable its a Flintstone mobile

[CometCyclone]

Originally Posted by Steve Wastler

Wouldn't open, honest discussion in public forum help sell the car? I view it as this, it's been for sale for decades, and has not sold. It was offered at auction and did not sell. Granted its the remains of a town car, far from being original, correct or complete. Maybe given more correct information this vehicle could once again be viable to be purchased for restoration, but if it is priced at what could be looked at as competively with restored vehicles, does this not hurt the hobby as well?

It's been for sale for decades yes.But now it's in the hands of new owner.Why do you keep blaming me for the actions of my father???? If your brother kills somebody should I label you one aswell and treat you as such?

[Cape Codder]

I don't know if this picture will be here but I thought someone wanted to see a one of a 1930 Town Car. I don't know the owner of this car or whether it is original or restored but in my eyes is sure is gorgeous. I took this at the New England Meet in Lake George 2009?

Hope you enjoy!

[spdway1]

I think that is Tim Kelly's car. He sure has been quiet lately.

[Bill in Al]

When the right person and the right time come together,it'll happen. A lot of B.S. here today.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by forever4

This is true of fordbarn as a whole the last couple of years, and I believe why many of the valuable and knowledgeable contributors have been AWOL, leaving the remainder. A lot of strongly held but ignorant beliefs and postings don't add to the community.

There is nothing wrong with opinions. The problem is when those are incorrectly presented as fact. Once these "facts" are brought to light of day and shown to be incorrect then the person that presented the truth is accused of attacking, or "here we go again with the purists" This is why a lot of people that want to know the "truth" are PM'ing and emailing instead of posting here.

As it related to this thread, the original posting was a simple question. Basically, was this a new find or something already known? This was not a thread started by the seller.

The seller has an opinion about the worth of the car. His opinion is based on 1 of 3 survivors and what his father turned down many years ago plus inflation but no outside confirmation worth/value.

He has posted here (remember this was a post about barn find or not) a comment about discussions on the forum but none to him. I have an email from someone that tells me he offered 40,000 and was turned down. This is hearsay as I was not there to witness the offer but based on what I read here it sounds like an reasonable amount if it happened.

We have read here about speculation of worth and cost to restore. That brings me to another opinion I have. Since this has been advertised at 1 of 3, would it not "demand" a correct as built restoration to substantiate offers anywhere near 100 grand? And if my statement is true, would not opinions of those that restore or have knowledge of the standards for these cars mean a lot?

I am also of the opinion that now the ball is in the sellers court to show that the car, in it's present state, is truly worthy of the price he has in his mind by bringing in someone to assess the condition and value of the car in today's market. Even an insurance policy with an agreed value would be something.

Will this turn into an I'll restore it myself someday? I think so. I think it will sit until his passing and his children will do the same thing as he is doing now.

Just my opinion.

[Franchise_24]

Steve,

I never took your messages as bashing, just merely stating an opinion. I don't think you ever passed your opinion of the price of the car as law and fact, just an opinion. I've learned there are some on here who think that what they say is the only thing that matters, and if you go against what they say you are wrong. I've learned to just scroll right by those peoples post and read the next one.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Steve Wastler

Mike, you seem to be a realist like me. I sent a pm to the seller last night, explaining some points to my posts. All true and factual, it was said that I opened the door to the speculation of its worth. Very far from the truth. The problem here is due to blame and finger pointing, that's what drives people away, I myself am seriously considering dropping the barn entirely, to many close minded people. THAT is the downfall of anything good. Add the censorship, it's not too appealing. And to think, I was trying to relay my point in a civil manner and have NOT been negative to the seller himself, which I have also been accused of.

It boils down to this; value is based on two things, rarity and condition. And in this case condition stomps the sh*t out of rarity. A post refered to what your momma told you. My momma also told me always speak the truth, but remember not all like the truth, but with the truth you can't go wrong.

A post was made comparing coins, an uncirculated or even mint condition coin will command top dollar, the same coin abused and well worn will not. This is not made up, it is what it is.

If this were to sell and able to be restored, it's TC pieces will mostly be reproduction. Will this now restored vehicle with maybe 5% original pieces command the same value as one restored with 95% of its original parts? I would certainly hope not, as this is what would truly hurt the hobby.

In my line of work, I see things from a different perspective since we also restore other marques however both of these comments counter what I see/know in the 'collector car world'.


First, "condition" may overtake rarity in common Roadsters, Coupes, --or even Mail Trucks however in this case, I think most upscale restoration shops and/or car owners would disagree 100% with your opinion. Again, most Model-A vehicles were utilitarian vehicles with high production rates. A common car for a common man if you will, HOWEVER, in the case of a T/C this is really not the case. Back in the day this car was targeted for the affluent, and as such there is a much different mindset that applies today with regard to collectability.

Your second comment/opinion is also one most collectors of rare vehicles that I know would have trouble with. I personally believe your 5% comment is not accurate either, but none-the-less we will use it for this illustration of my point. What differentiates a 'professional Restorer' from others is that he researches what the item was like originally in aesthetics, and how it functioned originally, ...and then that Restorer replicates that item with exacting detail. For the discriminating car owner, this is the type of craftsmanship they expect. When this level of craftsmanship is performed on a vehicle, it does not lower the value.

And, just so we are clear on something, how much is actually "original items" used when a typical frame-off is completed on a generic Model-A? If the deteriorated wood is replaced, the new paint and upholstery is used along with the glass, the plating, new sheetmetal patches --or even replacement sheetmetal is used, does this change the value? Absolutely not. Need further proof?? Arguably the finest 1930 Deluxe Roadster in this country (i.e.: highest $$ value) was built out of parts from different sources, ...yet I do not know of one single individual that has come forward to suggest that this vehicle has hurt the hobby due to it not being restored with its' original parts.

Originally Posted by Franchise_24

Steve,

I never took your messages as bashing, just merely stating an opinion. I don't think you ever passed your opinion of the price of the car as law and fact, just an opinion. I've learned there are some on here who think that what they say is the only thing that matters, and if you go against what they say you are wrong. I've learned to just scroll right by those peoples post and read the next one.

Could this be from some folks here already having their minds made up yet facts or truths will not sway their differing opinion?? Like it has been pointed out, the true "restorers" (i.e. purists) are seemingly backing away from posting publicly because some folks do not want to hear the facts because it counters their pre-conceived opinions!

.

[Maclab58]

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Time to put this one to bed. The horse is dead, lets stop beating it!

[Mitch//pa]

here is my unprofessional take
"it is what it is"

[Franchise_24]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

In my line of work, I see things from a different perspective since we also restore other marques however both of these comments counter what I see/know in the 'collector car world'.


First, "condition" may overtake rarity in common Roadsters, Coupes, --or even Mail Trucks however in this case, I think most upscale restoration shops and/or car owners would disagree 100% with your opinion. Again, most Model-A vehicles were utilitarian vehicles with high production rates. A common car for a common man if you will, HOWEVER, in the case of a T/C this is really not the case. Back in the day this car was targeted for the affluent, and as such there is a much different mindset that applies today with regard to collectability.

Your second comment/opinion is also one most collectors of rare vehicles that I know would have trouble with. I personally believe your 5% comment is not accurate either, but none-the-less we will use it for this illustration of my point. What differentiates a 'professional Restorer' from others is that he researches what the item was like originally in aesthetics, and how it functioned originally, ...and then that Restorer replicates that item with exacting detail. For the discriminating car owner, this is the type of craftsmanship they expect. When this level of craftsmanship is performed on a vehicle, it does not lower the value.

And, just so we are clear on something, how much is actually "original items" used when a typical frame-off is completed on a generic Model-A? If the deteriorated wood is replaced, the new paint and upholstery is used along with the glass, the plating, new sheetmetal patches --or even replacement sheetmetal is used, does this change the value? Absolutely not. Need further proof?? Arguably the finest 1930 Deluxe Roadster in this country (i.e.: highest $$ value) was built out of parts from different sources, ...yet I do not know of one single individual that has come forward to suggest that this vehicle has hurt the hobby due to it not being restored with its' original parts.




Could this be from some folks here already having their minds made up yet facts or truths will not sway their differing opinion?? Like it has been pointed out, the true "restorers" (i.e. purists) are seemingly backing away from posting publicly because some folks do not want to hear the facts because it counters their pre-conceived opinions!

.

No Brent, I just know who to ignore....

[chl]

I'm new to this and don't understand why anyone would quit posting because "some people" don't want to hear the facts, some don't seem want to hear others opinions just because they are "opinions" . All I can say is ,who cares? why would any stop posting over such trivial nonsense. A lot facts are learned from people having different opinions,not much would be learned if we all thought alike.

[Franchise_24]

Originally Posted by chl

I'm new to this and don't understand why anyone would quit posting because "some people" don't want to hear the facts, some don't seem want to hear others opinions just because they are "opinions" . All I can say is ,who cares? why would any stop posting over such trivial nonsense. A lot facts are learned from people having different opinions,not much would be learned if we all thought alike.

If only everyone understood that and didn't have a holier than thou opinion. I like your thinking.

[peters180a/170b]

All i know from reading these post are [#1] 63 - 1930 TownCars were built,,,.Bob Johnson Numbers .. [#2] 2 restored 1930 TownCars are owned by a well know collector and i don't blame him for not saying anything. [#3] 3 -1930 TownCars are known to exist.who knows where another one might be?[#4] WE should thank the New owner for putting the car up forsale no matter what shape its in and giving someone the chance someday to restore it.. and [#5] THANKS to the father for putting it to the side and SAVING IT. That's the way a true Model "A' guy thinks no matter being a FINE POINT RESTORER/owner or DRIVER/ TOUR...[#6] I'll take a TownCar Delivery over the TownCar... Room for a Ice cooler full of beer , chairs , umbrella , and a Ford bbq grill/ charcoal. Or don't come knocking if you see it rocken....

[eystein]

I don't see why we should stop this thread. We should rather bring it back where it should be. I was looking forward to learn something about the town car from the thread.

So here we go :

What is the device in the first picture . Is it the famed original Cigar Lighter ?

What are the repro aluminum looking pieces in the second picture . Are they going over the top of the rear post of the front doors ? (like in the third and fourth picture)

Also it seems apparent from both third and fourth pictures that on the top of the rear post of the front doors the reveals start to curve forward before the cut line at the top. It is known that for 1930 Briggs used standard Fordor doors and modified them to fit the remaining town cars. It seems odd though that in converting, they didn't straighten the line of the reveals at the top. Would have seemed more natural. I guess that this is as it was originally as both the restored and unrestored car have this feature. Anyway if anyone can fill in with more comments on the details of the conversion it would be interesting.

Are the roll up window channels felt lined like in the Fordor or plated metal (brass) as for the cabriolet ?

Finally, what is the bracket in the last photo ? is it a town car specialty part, or is it unrelated ?

[spdway1]

Does a Town Car get judged in the open class or closed class???

[Bob Johnson]

Originally Posted by eystein

I don't see why we should stop this thread. We should rather bring it back where it should be. I was looking forward to learn something about the town car from the thread.

So here we go :

What is the device in the first picture . Is it the famed original Cigar Lighter ?

What are the repro aluminum looking pieces in the second picture . Are they going over the top of the rear post of the front doors ? (like in the third and fourth picture)

Also it seems apparent from both third and fourth pictures that on the top of the rear post of the front doors the reveals start to curve forward before the cut line at the top. It is known that for 1930 Briggs used standard Fordor doors and modified them to fit the remaining town cars. It seems odd though that in converting, they didn't straighten the line of the reveals at the top. Would have seemed more natural. I guess that this is as it was originally as both the restored and unrestored car have this feature. Anyway if anyone can fill in with more comments on the details of the conversion it would be interesting.

Are the roll up window channels felt lined like in the Fordor or plated metal (brass) as for the cabriolet ?

Finally, what is the bracket in the last photo ? is it a town car specialty part, or is it unrelated ?

The device in the first picture is the knob that locks down the sliding glass in the partition. The rubber piece acts like a cam to secure the glass.

Yes they are spacers that fill in the gap between the top of the rear portion of the front doors and the roof.

I would only be speculating on the revels so I will not say anything.

Not sure about the 1930 Town Car but the 1928-1929 were felt lined with a chrome or nickle trim piece only on the top of the glass.

The bracket is not from a Town Car.

Bob

PS
Here is a picture of one of my Town Cars.

Just added a picture of the infamous cigar lighter and ash tray.

[Bick in New Zealand]

Bob were these 'specialty' items designed by Ford or were they available pieces just sourced from outside suppliers?

[dlshady]

That Bakelite lighter looks almost identical to the one in a late 20's Stutz we had in the shop a while back. I'd bet that it was probably sourced from a company like Casco.