brakes:mechanicals vs hydraulics Q

[hardtimes]

Ford made mechanical brake vehicles into late 30s..even with V8 engines.
My Q is , when making an AV8, do you guys ever maintain mechanicals or always convert to hydraulics? Pros/Cons....

[1931 flamingo]

Have seen many with the mechanicals. Properly maintained and adjusted mechanicals as good as hyd. JMO
Paul in CT

[Bassman/NZ]

Mine is 50s style and I'm using hydraulic, but if you are doing a strict 40s style AV8 you should use mechanicals. They must be in absolute top condition all through with no slop in any of the clevis' and pins etc.

[richard crow]

if you drive in any trafic you want hydl. brakes . a few pantic stops whith mech. brakes & they need to be readjusted.but if you live where there is little trafic mech are good one advantage of mech. brakes is the car can sit for months & they don,t leak or have pistons freez.but they don,t come close to depend abilty of hydl.

[Flathead Fever]

You can use mechanical brakes but you will definitely not want to tailgate anything with modern ABS brakes. The old mechanical brakes are poor at best but they must have worked ok for the era or there would not be a single old Ford left with a grille shell that had not run into the back something. Unless the look you are going for is a really early pre-war era hot rod I would definitely install hydraulic brakes. If you decide to install a dropped axle with mechanical brakes it creates a whole new can of worms. The dropped axle raises the mechanical brake arms on the backing plates so they no longer lineup with the metal brake rods. I've seen extensions welded on the spring perches to raise up the holes that the brake rods run through but I think that would change the geometry of rods and levers so they do not apply as much pressure. Also, if your going to run 16” wire wheels with hydraulic brakes you will either need to find a pair of ‘35 Ford rear brake drums that have the raised spots that support the wire wheels hubs. These drums were designed for the wire wheels and will work with hydraulic brakes. The 40-’48 drums will work but you will need spacer rings to support in inner portion of the wire wheel hubs. The ‘35 Ford front drums will not work with hydraulic brakes so you will need the later drums with the spacer rings.

[rotorwrench]

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In Don Montgomery's excellent picture filled hot rod books you can spot many a pr-1940 model A with the splash aprons still on even though the removed the fenders. This was a necssity when mechanicals were installed to keep the rods from getting damaged plus they looked kind of funky hanging out there.

If you have ever owned & maintained a motorcycle with a chain you know how often you have to tighten it if you ride daily. The mechanical brakes are a lot like that. They need constant maintenance if the car is a daily driver.

Kerby

[CWPASADENA]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

In Don Montgomery's excellent picture filled hot rod books you can spot many a pr-1940 model A with the splash aprons still on even though the removed the fenders. This was a necssity when mechanicals were installed to keep the rods from getting damaged plus they looked kind of funky hanging out there.

Kerby

I think the reason some Model A Hot rods still had splash aprons is that it was easy to remove the fenders but the splash aprons were installed between the body and frame and some of the body bolts went thru them. It was more work to remove the body bolts and slide the splash aprons out from under the body.

Most open wheel Speedsters and Race Cars with Mechanical Brakes had the rods exposed beside the frame rails and they worked just fine.

Some Model A Hot Rodders liked the look of the splash aprons covering the sides of the frame. If you look closely, you will also see Model A Hot Rods with Hydraulic Brakes and Splash Aprons.

Again, Just my opinion,

Chris

[Charlie Stephens]

My first thought would be if you had an accident a smart lawyer would ask why you increased the horsepower and didn't upgrade the braking system to match (and it would probably be a legitimate question).

Charlie Stephens

[CWPASADENA]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

My first thought would be if you had an accident a smart lawyer would ask why you increased the horsepower and didn't upgrade the braking system to match (and it would probably be a legitimate question).

Charlie Stephens

I think this is a VERY GOOD POINT, especially when building a Hot Rod.

Chris

[LeroyM]

Update all the mechanical brake parts, install a set of flathead ted's floaters, get cast iron drums and adjust everything corectly. They will do anything hydraulic brakes will do for a Model A or 32-34 Ford. I think Ford went to hydraulic brakes because the cars got heavier not because of horsepower.

Also as far as dropping the frontend with a dropped axle you can still do it with mechanical brakes. You just need to use 32-34 spring perches, 32-36 axle, 32 spindles. With a reverse eye spring and three leaves removed you can get a 4 inch drop, if you need more just make a tab to raise the brake acuators.

[37 Coupe]

Probably one of the biggest reasons that Ford finally made hydraulic brakes standard on 1939 models was the feedback from salesman pleading with Ford to do so.

[keith oh]

Defending mechanical brakes Henry said, "The safety of steel from pedal to wheel".

[Richard (EV8G)]

Originally Posted by keith oh

Defending mechanical brakes Henry said, "The safety of steel from pedal to wheel".

Henry was still alive and kicking (and probably driving Edsel and everyone else crazy...) in 1939. The 1938 salesman's book recites all the dogma about the advantages of mechanical brakes over hydraulics, as Ford had for many years. It has been reported that the dealers had pleaded with Ford to go with hydraulics for years, and 1938 being a "bad" year for Ford maybe was the last straw?
(I would like to read what the 1939 salesman's book says...)

In the 1954 movie "Picnic" William Holden's character told of how he had been hitch-hiking and was picked up by two "babes" in a convertible, who had a "bar" right there in the car. They had plied him with booze, taken him to a motel and "taken advantage of him" until he passed out. When he woke up, the girls were gone, and so was his 200 bucks. He had reported it to the police, but they told him his story was "wishful thinking."

I agree that, when properly adjusted, mechanical brakes are about as good as they can be. However, those who persist in believing that they are "as good as" hydraulics may be guilty of the same...

While this is still (?) a "free country" and everyone has the right to believe whatever they want, when it comes to brakes, it is kind of important to have good ones. It is not always possible to be able to sufficiently anticipate what others are going to do. (In many cases, even THEY do not know what they are going to do!!!) As already mentioned, sometimes they do it with 4-wheel discs and even cars with modern brakes don't stand a chance, let alone our old Fords with original brakes. (Gallagher said that many cars should have bumper stickers that say "I brake for no apparent reason.")

Since it is possible to convert to hydraulics, and preferably Bendix, while doing no harm (other than the cost involved - which is much less costly than the potential damage and loss of life caused by one major collision) there is no good reason to stick to mechanicals. I receive calls every week relating "mechanical brake horror stories" (and fortunately mostly near-misses) from people who have done everything they could to make their original mechanical brakes work well enough so they feel safe, their spouses feel safe, and their children and/or grandchildren are safe. They tell me that they have this really nice car, but cannot enjoy driving it due to persistent feelings of insecurity.

I have an original 34 with original brakes. I am leading with my $3,000+ grille, not to mention all the other stuff. (It is true that "insurance" will cover the damage, but I would rather not have it get to that.) It stops "ok" and I plan to try a set of Ted's floaters, but my other 34 with Bendix brakes will stop on the proverbial dime, and I did not modify anything permanantly (except for the tops of the front spindles for clearance) to install the entire system. To me, there is no comparison.

I can see keeping them all original for show/judging purposes, but the EFV8CA deduction for hydraulic brakes is not enough to miss the top prize?

I know, I know, "you can't get any better than locking up the wheels" but that assumes that they all lock up at nearly the same time. With mechanical brakes, there is no assurance of equal application as there is with hydraulics. Unequal application can lead to loss of control. Especially with the 37-38 cable brakes, it is often reported to me that not only will the car veer off during stops, but also that there is "no tellin" which way it will go on any given stop. (That can be really hard on the upholstery!!!)

Today IS Sunday...

[flatjack9]

Well said, Richard.

[Bassman/NZ]

On the Model A board there are many who swear their mechanicals are as good or better, but having had both, plus the 37-38 cables, I'm a believer in hydraulics. Cars and brakes are so much improved now that judicious driving is essential.

[296 V8]

Isn’t new ver. old lining material a factor in all drum brakes?
I can only assume the old (“toxic”) stuff is better = stops better?

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

My first thought would be if you had an accident a smart lawyer would ask why you increased the horsepower and didn't upgrade the braking system to match (and it would probably be a legitimate question).

Charlie Stephens

An equally smart defense lawyer would then point out that horsepower is a moot point, as you don't step on the accelerator and brake at the same time, so the HP is essentially zero regardless of the engine while braking.

Check out the Flathead Ted brake energizer kit for Ford Mechanicals. Makes them self-energizing like the shoes in Bendix type hydraulic brakes. Here's a link to the video:
0)"]https://www.youtube.com/v/2EjRe411l3M

[Kahuna]

Mechanical brakes suck

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by MikeK

An equally smart defense lawyer would then point out that horsepower is a moot point, as you don't step on the accelerator and brake at the same time, so the HP is essentially zero regardless of the engine while braking.

Check out the Flathead Ted brake energizer kit for Ford Mechanicals. Makes them self-energizing like the shoes in Bendix type hydraulic brakes. Here's a link to the video:
0)"]https://www.youtube.com/v/2EjRe411l3M

To which the first lawyer would respond that the new engine is heavier (which it is in almost all cases) and requires more stopping ability. In addition having more power probably means you are driving faster than you would have been driving with the original engine (isn't that why you updated the engine in the first place).

Charlie Stephens

[Newaygo Kid]

I put the brake energizers on years ago, I put about 4,000 miles a year on my 36 and the brakes work very good. You need all the parts in the brake system in good shape, my car will lock the brakes and stop straight. I thought about juice brakes at one time tried the energizers and have been happy with them.Good luck Chris