Brake grief

[apbright]

I recently reassembled my front brakes after a cleaning job. (They were found to have excess grease on them; I washed the parts in gasoline and installed grease baffles which were absent when I bought the car - per previous thread https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...t=grease+brake).

I then attempted to adjust them per Les Andrews' book's instructions, but had great difficulty finding the right balance between no-drag with the brake pedal not depressed and sufficient braking force at the (2), (3), and (4) positions. My first test drive gave insufficient braking force - I live on a hill in San Francisco, and full force on the brake pedal would not bring it to a stop from 10mph going downhill (had to use emergency brake).

After another hour of fiddling, this time allowing a slight drag in the un-depressed position, I took her for a short drive. Seven miles down the road, over only a couple of San Francisco hills (was driving mostly on level-ground/Great Hwy), I saw smoke coming from the left front wheel. The drum was indeed hot - water splashed on it sizzled. I assumed it was dragging, loosened the adjusting wedge about four notches; after that it seemed OK for the rest of the 20 or so miles I drove that day.

Upon inspecting the brakes when I got home, I found a lot of dust on and around the dust cap (pic. 1), the right brake lining was partially discoloured and worn thin (pic. 2), and a new groove cut in the brake drum (pic. 3). There were all new features since having washed them.

So, questions are,
- do the brake shoes just need re-entering?
- is the brake lining unusable?
- is this brake drum unusable without being returned or replaced?

Hope someone gets a chuckle and might have some advice on this.

[Keith True]

Am I seeing things right? It looks in your second picture like the head of the lower roller pin is on the outside.If you replaced the shoes in the wrong positions after you cleaned them without taking off the pins,rollers,and adjusting wedges your brakes will be doing all kinds of weird stuff.It looks like something solid got in there.A brass rivet is not going to cut a drum like that in that amount of time.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Humble Opinion:


Last Brake Installation ??????


1. Your one statement above appears to be an excellent description of the questionned mentality of the last person who last installed the brakes in your car before you bought it, i.e..:

"and installed grease baffles which were absent when I bought the car"

2. Just think!

3. Who would sell a car with intentional or unintentional greased brakes on the steep streets in San Francisco?

4. With this sort of human mentality, can one just imagine the mechanical care given to the remaining brake parts?

5. Could be a good idea to question the entire prior brake installation provided before you bought the car, i.e., start checking "everything" from scratch.

[700rpm]

I'm with Keith. The roller pin is backwards and the wrong type of head. What is riding on the brake track when the brakes are applied? Can you post another pic?

[Joe K]

the right balance between no-drag with the brake pedal not depressed and sufficient braking force at the (2), (3), and (4) positions.

I think you identified the "non centered" condition right there. The shoes are hitting the drum "incrementally" rather than flat footed. Consequently to get full contact you need more step/pressure/arc of the actuating lever.

You tried to increase the arc of the actuating lever by taking up a notch on the adjustment, and instead got dragging brakes.

I think you caught it before a lot of damage was done - including yourself if you can't stop.

And like the others, I'm thinking a complete tear down/re-do is in your future. Well, at least to get the shoes ground to arc and centered.

Joe K

[Keith True]

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I was kind of thinking that he had left the parts on the shoes when he washed them,then swapped the position of the two shoes,but the wedges still look to be in the correct position. I'm still surprised at the number of people that think the rollers that ride the wedge are all there is to the bottom.They think the pin is just to hold the rollers in place,and just poke it in and put a cotter pin in it.

[Bob C]

I would use the adjustment instructions in the Service Bulletins not Les Andrews.

Bob

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Grease in the lining might come back to haunt you! Carbon-Tetrachloride, old fire extinguisher fluid, is a good cleaner for that. (If you can still get it) I used it once to flush out an oily, chattering clutch disc (in the car) and it worked SMOOTH after that! Bill W.

[Al 29Tudor]

Originally Posted by apbright

I recently reassembled my front brakes after a cleaning job. (They were found to have excess grease on them; I washed the parts in gasoline and installed grease baffles which were absent when I bought the car - per previous thread https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...t=grease+brake).

I then attempted to adjust them per Les Andrews' book's instructions, but had great difficulty finding the right balance between no-drag with the brake pedal not depressed and sufficient braking force at the (2), (3), and (4) positions. My first test drive gave insufficient braking force - I live on a hill in San Francisco, and full force on the brake pedal would not bring it to a stop from 10mph going downhill (had to use emergency brake).

After another hour of fiddling, this time allowing a slight drag in the un-depressed position, I took her for a short drive. Seven miles down the road, over only a couple of San Francisco hills (was driving mostly on level-ground/Great Hwy), I saw smoke coming from the left front wheel. The drum was indeed hot - water splashed on it sizzled. I assumed it was dragging, loosened the adjusting wedge about four notches; after that it seemed OK for the rest of the 20 or so miles I drove that day.

Upon inspecting the brakes when I got home, I found a lot of dust on and around the dust cap (pic. 1), the right brake lining was partially discoloured and worn thin (pic. 2), and a new groove cut in the brake drum (pic. 3). There were all new features since having washed them.

So, questions are,
- do the brake shoes just need re-entering?
- is the brake lining unusable?
- is this brake drum unusable without being returned or replaced?

Hope someone gets a chuckle and might have some advice on this.

Good to have added the grease cups - you really don't want grease on the linings. That will make a lining grab. My experience has been not to take the original brake adjusting mentality too seriously. In spit of thinking that more braking is done in the rear it really isn't. More braking is done by the front wheels. I've found that getting all wheels to adjust close to the same drag works best.
But, with that mark in the drum, you should be able to find the part that caused it. Something is out of allignment or loose.
I would use the drum as is at least until you find the cause of the gouging.
Also check that there isn't a brake rod anti-rattler restricting rod movement.

[Jim Parker Toronto]

It could be a replacement roller pin, as some of the supply places do not take as much care as Henry did in manufacturing these parts........

Not hard to guess which one is the original is it ?????

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

apbright,
If you live near California & Palm in San Francisco, I'll alert Cindy, my kid, to "WATCH OUT FOR YOU"!!! Bill W.

[apbright]

Originally Posted by Keith True

Am I seeing things right? It looks in your second picture like the head of the lower roller pin is on the outside.If you replaced the shoes in the wrong positions after you cleaned them without taking off the pins,rollers,and adjusting wedges your brakes will be doing all kinds of weird stuff.It looks like something solid got in there.A brass rivet is not going to cut a drum like that in that amount of time.

Ah, so you mean the cotter pins should face the outside? I thought that that was the case, but this is the way the car came to me. I simply re-assembled it the way I found it.

I'll re-inspect and double-check whether something else is getting caught inside.

[apbright]

3. Who would sell a car with intentional or unintentional greased brakes on the steep streets in San Francisco?

To be fair, I actually purchased the car in Massachusetts, but that presumably doesn't forgive the lack of grease baffles. I'll continue a deeper inspection of the rest of the system, starting with the rear drums.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by apbright

Ah, so you mean the cotter pins should face the outside? I thought that that was the case, but this is the way the car came to me. I simply re-assembled it the way I found it.

I'll re-inspect and double-check whether something else is getting caught inside.

The heads of the pins are supposed to ride on the "pins" (extensions) that Keith mentioned. And this the reason why the pin in the pix above was seen to have 'flats' worn on it - a non-hardened aftermarket pin.

Thinking this out further, likely this the cause of your non-centered shoes. Shoes are dropped by gravity and likely touch at the bottom even when fully retracted.

There may be hope for this without severe work yet.

Joe K

[columbiA]

Unless you are using Teds Floaters,The lower pins always have the head of the pin riding on the roller track.The roller tracks need to be flat on top & not have depressions worn into them from the roller pins.

[Joe K]

Thank you columbia. Roller track was the name I couldn't come up with.

Senior moment I guess. (Who me? Senior?)

Joe K

[luckyal]

I use the brake cleaner spray and it works great. Remember gasoline is an oil based product !
Al

[1931 flamingo]

I think for what a set of shoes cost, I wouldn't have tried to "clean" them but would have replaced the linings and cleaned/washed the drums. JMO
Paul in CT

[Fred K-OR]

Originally Posted by apbright

To be fair, I actually purchased the car in Massachusetts, but that presumably doesn't forgive the lack of grease baffles. I'll continue a deeper inspection of the rest of the system, starting with the rear drums.

I think your comment about the whole system makes very good sense. Especially in SF.

BTW the "emergency" brake is a "parking" brake. Meaning that if you use it for an emergency stop, you will wreak this brake system. It was designed only for parking, not stopping the car.

[pat in Santa Cruz]

These brakes have been incorrectly maintained, probably for years. Even the shoe contact indicates a twisting shoe, probably from worn pins. If you intend to drive around SF, Marin or the Santa Cruz mountains, you need good brakes. I would bet good money your steel drums are worn beyond safe conditions, as well as the clevis pins, levers and bushings and tracks. You need cast drums to prevent the brake fade you will experience going down some of those hills in your area. Judging from the amateur quality work we can see from the photos, I suspect the entire system is wrong.

Mechanical brakes can be very good if they're done correctly, but only when done correctly. I would rebuild the entire system from pedal bushings to drums. You can get cast drums installed to your hubs with shoes arced to fit them and the entire backing plate rebuilt with new bushings in the rears and hardened tracks from Mel Gross ( in LA 714-292-8660), so all you do is install them. Or if you're a good mechanic but without the 30 ton press needed to swage the new drums to the hubs, you can do it yourself using Mels drums and shoes.